The Water Cooler - 2013-04-11

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12:37 PM

@BenBrocka My thought is 2k users are just a little effort away from 3k users. Most of our 2k users are already 3k users meaning we do not have a lot of new closers in the pipe. That I see is a big challenge for us it means that we are not building enough of a new base of quality contributors that are also avid users

@Shog9 Slappy birthday TWP :)

12:57 PM

@Ramhound I don't think you should be claiming that computer professional don't need to work overtime. Many of my colleagues would disagree with you. — DJClayworth 12 mins ago

Question: I understand that if I asked "Hey, is this legal?", that's a lawyer question. But asking if there's a rationale behind workplace laws seems like something more answerable by a community.

-4

Q: Why are certain jobs exempt from Overtime Laws?

I was reading an article about LucasArts folding, and someone in comments pointed to this article While I accept the law can sometimes be an ass for no good reason, I'm interested to know if there is a reason that certain classifications of job are exempt, and why computer professionals in parti...

@deworde That question is not on topic for TWP.

@deworde Are you trying to solve a real life problem or is this just a curiosity?

TWP is about navigating the professional work environment. Questions about why laws were enacted is not part of that topic

@deworde But the real reason is that Overtime laws were really enacted to protect low wage workers from being forced to work long hours for low pay. If you are highly compensated then it is more reasonable to expect that sometimes you will have to work long hours.

1:14 PM

@Chad I dunno, people gain rep pretty quick on Workplace (for the right or wrong reasons)

@BenBrocka I think if we were a bit healtier we would have more users in the pipe working towards the 3k mark. and even some that were in that 2 k because they were not terribly active with asking and answering but do occasionally.

1:27 PM

2

Q: How can I use my LinkedIn profile to find employment in another location?

I've been getting really a lot of LinkedIn profile views, invites from recruiters, etc. However, all of them come from my current location in Europe. Thing is I'd like to move overseas, to US west coast. How can I indicate that in my LinkedIn profile? How can I make my LinkedIn profile more vis...

linkedin networking relocation

@Chad we just had that question right?

So is how to use a social networking site on topic?

And is what he is asking a valid question

It seems like he is asking a question that is begging for a horde of "Dont do it that way" answers I hate those types of answers

16

Q: Can bad working experience really hurt your career?

Can one hurt his career by bad working experience? By bad experience I mean a job with little challenges skill-wise, bad work practices within the company, and things like that. Let's say you have this sort of job for 2-5 years. I am in a similar position and I am having hard time finding a anoth...

career-development

:\ I feel like this bounty attracted bad answers

Bountys often do

You've successfully screwed over the close voters though...I think they'll all expire before the bounty's over

A rather annoying side effect of bounties

1:43 PM

@BenBrocka I think its a good question

Didn't say it should be closed, I just don't like bounties being, deliberately or otherwise, a get-out-of-close-free card

that may have been partially why I offered a bounty :|

I think if you offer a bounty on a question that gets closed you should just lose 4X the bounty you offered as a penalty

But I am a mean and grumpy bastard!

2:21 PM

@Chad Har har har.

2:40 PM

@enderland Part of the problem here is a desire to avoid designing features that will break on large sites. Hand-holding every new user is feasible on small betas, but problematic on most successful sites - and is completely laughable on a site like Stack Overflow.

It's a hard problem to solve - designing everything for SO hurts smaller sites, but rampant inconsistency in how things work makes it harder to document this stuff and confusing for folks who're active on multiple sites.

(@gnat linked to this discussion)

FWIW, chat was never really built for supporting new users - it could be redesigned in a number of ways to better support them, but the original intention was to be sort of a lounge for folks who'd already paid their dues so to speak, to give people who were already part of the community a place that would strengthen that bond.

New users can comment on their own posts, which makes that sort of an obvious place to guide them if you have time to burn; that folks often seem reluctant to do this doesn't exactly give me a lot of hope for big wins from directing new users into a completely different system.

3:12 PM

@Shog9 note that beta sites already have much differences with graduated ones (starting with beta theme and very generously lowered rep requirements for particular privileges). In this environment, having free chat (or maybe just one dedicated room, maybe also limited to registered users only) doesn't sound like a big deal consistency wise. As for comments in questions...

...at beta sites, with community norms typically having less of canonical guidances and this requiring more discussions than on graduated sites, using question comments for stuff like that somehow just doesn't feel right (not that I am strongly for free chat in beta but I would prefer to see a stronger justification to decline)

..._comments in questions_ - same applies to comments in answers, I should have written posts instead

@gnat I know it doesn't sound like it. That's why folks keep proposing it. But registering a new account is trivial, and the only real teeth chat's current moderation system has are built on the assumption that a new, chat-able account is not trivial to obtain.

@gnat Of course it doesn't feel right. These are Q&A sites, not "hold people's hands while they learn to English" sites. But boil it down and that's what folks want to do, or at least say they want to do. And comments support doing it.

(I have a sneaking suspicion that at least some of the people who've suggested this are secretly hoping for a way to shove people who annoy them into some sort of chat-ghetto where they aren't mussing up the main site... But that's not really a solution)

These are Q&A sites, not "hold people's hands while they learn to English" sites <- FAQ material

@Shog9 that sort protection makes perfect sense on graduated sites. At betas, hmmm... upon giving it a bit more thinking, well, if there will be no protection at all that could be a problem indeed. Yeah I guess free chat would be too open to abuse, straightforward solution doesn't feel right either

...trolls would be able to re-register and annoy chatters, thus trashing whole idea of offering help to those who need it

(I'm ignoring the other part of chat's current design, which only really provides true site-specific chat for Stack Overflow and MSO; that'll probably change at some point, but the other concern still applies)

@gnat Yes. Right now, you can suspend someone from chat, suspend them on the main site, or destroy both accounts and it actually presents them with a real barrier to re-entry. One we've had to depend on in some (thankfully a relatively small number thus far) cases. If we took that away, we'd need something else.

There's potential for a simpler way to just invite any user into a single room and allow them to talk.

Whether there's need for a simpler way to do that is another matter.

It's worth remembering that when chat originally rolled out, the idea of per-question chat-rooms was built in - that was dropped fairly quickly to avoid splitting information between a question (+answers+comments) and a separate site.

IMHO, the best solution here is one that takes long comment threads and moves them to chat - enabling all participants access to that room regardless of rep. This has been requested before.

...it's still predicated on folks actually starting and participating in these conversations in comments though.

3:29 PM

@Shog9 Id prefer to use an actual black hole to a chat ghetto if you could code that instead :p

> Chad has invited you to take this conversation where the sun don't shine

3:40 PM

@gnat where was this linked? I feel like i'm missing something

@Shog9 obviously responded to something I said but I'm not sure what :)

@enderland the comment immediately preceding it

ahhhh

@enderland click the little arrow

@enderland I linked it at MSO...

@Shog9 per my reading of your update, basically plan is to wait until there's more evidence of abuse? like it was with sticky hot questions... oh wait we probably won't give a damn even then. Heh, decline culture at SE is not in the best shape — gnat 9 hours ago

oooh waaaay earlier

:)

3:42 PM

"not in the best shape" refers right here :)

Apr 6 at 8:24, by gnat

well now you're talking about real system failure! I mean about the way how feature requests get declined. Have to admit, it feels like SE team just lacks the culture of doing this right. I also recall couple declines in this area and, although as you see I am for keeping status quo, I also recall the decline explanation was... not quite compelling... softly speaking...

To be fair, I do have a shiny silver [status-declined] badge on MSO

2

well the fundamental problem is for Stack overflow, turning away crappy or mediocre questions which causes epopel to leave doesn't affect the sheer volume of the site significantly enough to make people care

but here, and presumably other betas, the strict "gtfo if you suck" idea does NOT work

@enderland No, it probably needs to affect the sheer volume a bit more - SO could stand to lose a lot more users, provided they're the ones asking lousy questions.

@Shog9 Hey, I have a silver [feature-request] badge on MSO. I guess that makes us mortal enemies.

@YannisRizos heh... I have a gold one of those.

3:47 PM

@Shog9 but the problem is many people -myself included - started off as "asking crappy questions"

@enderland Sure. And then you got better.

Some folks don't.

yeah, but only because I'm persistent - plenty of people just say "screw this site"

I also am not a part of the first few SO like sites I went to

@Shog9 Since we are talking MSO badges, I got a gold [discussion] one recently, when should I be expecting my complementary xanax?

FWIW, I do support spending a lot more time on new users for beta sites. When a site is small, you can afford to do that... It just doesn't scale.

@YannisRizos I think that's what chat is for

@Shog9 New users are weird and they smell bad, I don't want to spend time with them.

3:51 PM

That's ok; I think @enderland is volunteering

@Shog9 silver badge shows a respectable level of decline culture. :) Though the fact that it isn't gold rather indicates there's a room for improvement...

Apr 6 at 8:24, by gnat

...When declining highly popular requests, this means investing a substantial effort; decline post should be passionate, profound and written well enough to address the issue in a way that can be understood (and appreciated) by community. It is fairly sad to see popular requests declined with bland messages like "it's good enough already" / "we don't see this as a problem" - when very popularity points to the fact that underlying issue is important and worth explaining in best terms possible

@enderland Everyone started off by asking crappy questions. The trick is to not throw a tantrum and go into "this site is evil, and the mods are nazis" mode when you get your first comment asking for clarifications. If you manage to do that, you'll do just fine.

@enderland I dont think SO's problem is crappy questions so much as too many questions so anything that is difficult is likely lost before it gets answered. And it is a PITA to find questions I want to bother answering that need answered

@gnat Gotta have something to work towards.

@gnat FWIW, the post that prompted this discussion is scored something under 20 - closing in on four years old. I wouldn't exactly call that "highly popular".

(and I'm fairly certain I've devoted more time to debunking the myth that it's even a problem now than anyone has put into demonstrating the existence of a real problem)

4:11 PM

Sorry to interrupt but:

11

Q: Do different seating arrangements in an office affect performance of employees?

Consider following seating arrangements: A) B) C) **Key:** Red Circle: Person Brown Rectangle: Table Blue Line: Window Black Protrusion: Door For example, in the last office I worked we sit like in A. I liked it because it felt like you are working together as a team. Now I sit in a ...

offices office-layout

@Shog9 well the post that really prompted it (through dupe-closure) managed to get +11 in just a few hours before it got closed. that's a bit different from 20 votes through 3 years isn't it?

11

Q: Why are users allowed to vote to delete/undelete multiple times?

Someone came to meta to try and get help reopening their question, and it got deleted as a result. I voted to undelete it and flagged it as well since I don't think we should be deleting posts that are getting actively discussed on meta, and noticed it has been deleted a 2nd time, with the same ...

discussion bug vote-to-delete limits vote-to-undelete

this is not a duplicate I agree but I am not sure it should be reopened it is at best semi hypothetical making it NRQ or to localized because really how many people work in an office set up like that

then it shoudl be closed as such

and not a dup

I am pretty sure I voted either NRQ or to local...

@gnat It is, but then so is the scenario that prompted it. I already have plans for changes that would've made the first deletion there impossible to begin with.

4:33 PM

@Shog9 I would rather prefer you to have plans for a more consistent "power option" for 10Kers. :) Single vote to close/reopen along with unlimited votes to un/delete don't feel like a well balanced setup; I would like it be either both single or both unlimited

@Chad "this is not a duplicate" to me this is enough to vote reopen; I wouldn't want visitors to see obviously wrong closure (bad for site image). I wouldn't mind to see it re-closed with a really appropriate reason though (smells a bit like like TL to me)

4:48 PM

@gnat Which is why I do not want to vote to open because I already voted to close to local once

I would rather see a mod reopen/reclose correctly...

5:08 PM

0

Q: Two concurrent offers drama

I had one on-site interview with Company A a week ago, went well, they came back two business days after (Monday) and extended an offer. Even before the interview, I told them that I am in the middle of a search and that I wanted to have any prospective offer sit on the table some time so that I...

interviewing job-search

It is 3/5 dup of 3 different questions and far to local as asked.

1 hour later…

6:31 PM

Holy crap I got the top question because I was really tired of the whiny baby questions from people who do not like their dress code :p

I did not expect it to be that popular

6:43 PM

@Chad neither did I :)

Is there a record hot score?

275 is definitely not it

there was a Q I remember over 1000 not so long ago

@Chad also glad it's not a software specific question ;)

7:12 PM

@Chad I was surprised that was a new question

I thought it was old/had been asked before

@enderland I didnt think it was.

Can't find anything though

@Jim I thought there was too was looking to like it in another question so when i did not find one I asked it myself. now when people ask how can i covince my boss to change corporate policy I can link that question as related :p

I revised this question and made it .... different :p

-2

Q: How can I gauge the corporate culture with just the interview and the recruiter interactions?

I had one on-site interview with Company A a week ago, went well, they came back two business days after and extended an offer. We agreed (before the interview) that, should they extend an offer, I would have 48 hours to think it over before responding. I had a phone interview with Company B l...

interviewing job-search

I am still not willing to vote to reopen

anyone else think they can make it better?

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