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2:19 PM
s quiet in here
hasnt been any recent questions though so i guess the silence makes sense
2:34 PM
Hrrmm Anyone around to give this question one more reopen vote? I agree that it's not a duplicate of the linked question
Q: How to use multiple offers to negotiate a higher salary?

Chetan Mukhopadhyay Possible Duplicate: Can I tell a potential employer the dollar amount of other offers? I am facing this situation. A few days back, I got an offer from CompanyA and I verbally accepted it. Yesterday I got another offer from CompanyB, which is paying a higher salary (about 12%more). A...

Is there any need? its got accepted answers now so noone else will bother contributing to it surely?
@RhysW It's not a duplicate of the question listed, so it shouldn't be closed at all
Also, it prevents users from finding the question if they have the same question, as users that go to that question from an unregistered account will get automatically redirected to the linked question instead
Oh i was unaware that it did that
in which case, you can have my vote
@RhysW I was unaware of that too until I was trying to view a comment on a closed-as-duplicate and it kept taking me to the wrong question :)
Q: My inbox takes me to the wrong question when question is closed as dup and I'm not logged in on target site?

RachelI have an incognito browser window open that is logged into Programmers, but not to StackOverflow. I have a separate browser window that is logged into all SE sites. (If you must know, my StayFocused time is expired so I'm using an incognito window to access Programmers) I clicked on an inbox no...

@RhysW Thanks :)
Ah thats interesting, im always logged in so i never thought about it, though it does make sense as to why we bother closing as duplicates. I will be sure to remember that in the future
I like the question too, your one that is, about how you even discovered this, avoiding the time tracking productivity tool made me chuckle
2:53 PM
@RhysW :) Yeah I spend way too much time on SE sites
@RhysW that accepted answer is bad imo
1 hour later…
4:09 PM
Q: Programmer's bill of rights: does your workplace follow it?

hdmanHere's the link to the bill of rights of a programmer: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/08/the-programmers-bill-of-rights.html The question is are there any workplaces that follow the bill? How does it work in practice?

I made an edit to this question I am not sure if a) it is good enough and b) if it belongs here... I think maybe it belongs on Programmers
@NickC There is some collusion here to keep the rates down because it helps the whole of business. When a business come in and pays too much, you will find that other companies in the area will avoid doing business with them. That may not matter to a global company but most companies rely on their regional sales more than thier global sales at least at the start. If they make it, it is because they fell into step and played ball.
@Chad I like the addition of how the bill works in practice, but I think it belongs on Programmers(duplicate already there and closed)
The only way I see it on-topic here is if it was asking how to implement a specific part of the bill in the workplace, such as how to get your boss to buy you dual monitors
Also, I think the "are there any workplaces that follow the bill" would be enough to keep it closed
4:25 PM
the one which gets me is Every programmer shall have their choice of mouse and keyboard
I don't care whether you're a coder or engineer or someone making 30k a year. $100 for a mouse/keyboard which don't suck is not too much to ask
@enderland I would be happy with merely a non-shitty mouse with a low click threshold and as scroll wheel ($15 usually) :)
I WILL use an Apple wireless keyboard whenever I have a workstation which is "mine" - even if I have to bring my own..
@Rachel I KNOW. $100 is like top of line basically
The original version of the question on Programmers included:

"Mine doesn't, and fails miserably at that. The only requirement met is a fast internet connection.

I think this can give everyone an idea of how good/bad their place is relative to the general workplace standards, and what to expect when changing jobs..."
So it sounds like the OP really wants to know if it would be acceptable to request some of those changes, such as dual monitors or better equipment
I made more edits to hopefully generalise it a little more, though its not really fit for here its hopefully closer to it
@Rachel I suspect a lot of workplaces which "don't allow" this simply don't because no one bothers asking for such things
4:32 PM
@RhysW Nice edit :) I'm going to expand on it a bit more though
Please feel free! i am crazily tired, neighbour 'drummer dude' insists on practicing well into the early hours every evening / morning and my edit had room for much improvement

I agree it should be closed, this actually sounds more like a rant now that ive re read it, many companies do give out competetive raises, ive experienced a few cases myself, he sounds bitter from a recent review more than anything
@RhysW Its updated. I copied some info from the Programmers version, and added a summary of the "bill of rights". Also since the OP was originally trying to figure out what the "standard" was, I added a phrase about that too (although it's not the basis of the question)
@Rachel sounds good, ill go have a look , sounds like alot of changes
Looks good, i left him a comment too, after all its no good us making all these changes if the question is now too different to be useful to the OP!

On topic is great, but if it wont match the original intentions its a worthless question really
4:57 PM
I'm sure it'll complicate things even more, but I modified the Programmers version in a different way that I think would apply to Programmers only
Honestly I think they're reasonable questions to ask providing someone is capable of providing an authorative answer
@RhysW (Good comment btw)
Yep, i voted to reopen as its now more workplace related, i just hope it is still relevant to what he wanted
@Rachel thanks, i dont remember if you get notified for edits to your question so this seemed like a good way to let him know
@RhysW You do get a notification icon in the global inbox, but its easy to miss since it's a light-blue color and goes away once you open the dropdown
Ah are they light blue here? i like the red circles of SO, very noticeable
@Rachel didnt you used to be a mod type thing, swear you used to have a diamond next to your name at one point during my visits
@RhysW Naaah I've never been a moderator :)
@RhysW Replies are red circles, notifications are blue. Notifications are things like your posts being edit, getting a badge, etc
@Rachel ah, perhaps im just imagining things then! oh perhaps ive just never noticed blue ones then!
5:09 PM
@RhysW Here, I'll trigger a notification for you
You should get one for the 10th upvote to this answer about a Good Answer badge
Thanks, might have to wait a bit, theres delay between it all
heh, saying that i got the rep long before the badge XD
@RhysW Yeah, perhaps it does that to make sure I don't retract my downvote :)
@Chad I'm still not a big fan of edits like that...it's a totally different question now, potentially one the asker no longer cares about, which can really poison an otherwise good question
@BenBrocka I do not like the current question. either.
@BenBrocka we did leave a message for the OP to check it is still relevant and useful for him, we noticed it was now wildly different
5:16 PM
My edit was changing from poll to do anyone... but I didnt vote to reopen yet because I didnt really care for that question much mote it jut wasnt a poll
@RhysW I think that should have been meta discussed before that change was made
@Chad the funny thing is, reviewing the edits, each person only made a small change, its just altogether its largely different
@RhysW Well I think your edit was where it changed to much. Its not that your question was a bad question, I think it is a good question. But it is not what the OP asked for.
@RhysW I think overall what the OP wanted (to find out if it was normal for a company to fully implement the "programmers bill of rights") would be off-topic here.
And I edited the Programmers copy of the question to be what the OP was originally asking, so I think the two combined (providing they get reopened) would get him what he's looking for
Q: Programmer's bill of rights: Is it reasonable to expect all the items listed?

hdmanHere's the link to the "bill of rights" of a programmer: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/08/the-programmers-bill-of-rights.html To summarize: Every programmer shall have two monitors Every programmer shall have a fast PC Every programmer shall have their choice of mouse and keyboard Ever...

Q: Programmer's bill of rights: How to encourage an employer to adopt it?

hdmanHere's the link to the "bill of rights" of a programmer: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/08/the-programmers-bill-of-rights.html To summarize: Every programmer shall have two monitors Every programmer shall have a fast PC Every programmer shall have their choice of mouse and keyboard Ever...

@Chad yeah i made the strong edit, i will openly admit to that and take the fault if its no longer useful. It was just the only way i could see it being marginally useful for this site.
Q: Does recruiting have scientific basis?

hey heyRecruiters look at many particular signs in a candidate and draw conclusions that, sometimes, look shallow, sometimes odd. For example, let's take this question: If you provided an incorrect answer to a technical question on an interview, should you respond with a correct response? The answer gi...

yea! we have a tell us what you think of recruiters question
5:23 PM
its too localised
I think most of them suck too so I should post an answe3r
depends on which recruiter you mean
its not a real question
each will answer differently
@Rachel lol your demonstration notification got me a silver badge aswell as the bronze one XD

I think the question should be reworded to

'How to provide an HONEST review of your boss'

it will be more useful and less ranty in my eyes
@Rachel The current version is still pretty different than what he was asking
5:26 PM
@Chad I don't know... it doesn't seem that bad to be asking if there is specific evidence to backup the many statements claiming recruiters make an assumption based on how you answer questions
"How can I get this", while a much better question, still isn't the same as "can I expect this"
@BenBrocka Would "Can I expect this work environment for a Programmer" be on-topic?
@BenBrocka If so, I'm all for reverting the changes and asking that question :)
The question is not a bad question by itself. But it is not the question that was asked and not really what the OP was asking so the answers to this question are not likely to help the OP answer his question.
When the changes to a question meet that threshold I think is when the edit is too much.
I think SE overall has the fundamental problem of not needing experts to answer most questions, so experts aren't excited to come here (on the whole, probably especially at non-SO sites)
@enderland I think its wrong to expect experts in the first place
5:29 PM
(see the recent question on interviewing/etc)
@enderland I think the problem is there is no reward for them to come here
how many of the peopel answering ACTUALLY have worked in recruiting (or hell even HR)?
@enderland Real "experts" get paid for what they do. They don't sit around on the internet all day answering questions for free. SE needs to cater to those people who enjoy helping others, and are knowledgeable enough to answer the question intelligently
A: Does recruiting have scientific basis?

maple_shaftThey probably do have models, in much the same way that financial analysts had models about derivatives of mortgage backed securities reducing the inherent risk of subprime mortgages by bundling them with other mortgages. We see how well that worked out for them... So the real question is why d...

lol wut?
@Chad Well yeah, that is part of it. But for example here you get people like us - who might have a personal interest in this or just be nerds or whatever - answering the majority of questions, but when serious "expert needed" questions come, people feel free to add their input as well
5:31 PM
@enderland I've seen many great answers by people who have. For example, jcmeloni or bethlashki
@enderland I love the kids that are still wet behind the ears trying to answer management questions... and by love i meant hate with fury of 1000 burning suns
@Rachel I don't think there are more than a small handful of people who frequent this site who can actually answer
Q: Does recruiting have scientific basis?

hey heyRecruiters look at many particular signs in a candidate and draw conclusions that, sometimes, look shallow, sometimes odd. For example, let's take this question: If you provided an incorrect answer to a technical question on an interview, should you respond with a correct response? The answer gi...

@enderland But many users can answer accurately based on personal experience, or based on what they've been told by a recruiter
as far as I know almost everyone here who has been involved in recruiting/interviewing has been from the perspective of "employee" rather than "recruiter/HR"
@enderland so lets throw common sense out the window and close the question
5:33 PM
@maple_shaft Your answer came across as a rant more than an answer to the question. I Think if you had some links to back up your claims it would appear less so. With out them I have to agree
@maple_shaft None of the current answers address the question at all. The asker is asking "do models exist, if so, which ones?"
@Chad Link to what? What claims am I making other than stating that yeah they think they have models
Of course they have models... what kind of quesiton is that?
@maple_shaft well given a currently +3 answer, they do NOT have models
the real question he was asking right in the beginning is why do many HR's seem to disqualify people for inconceivably minute details
and the highest voted answer basically says nothing except "maybe"
5:35 PM
@maple_shaft Well that is one claim. underlying motive in forming a pseudo science behind something that is inherently a chaotic messy process is another, The dilemma for them is that they post a job opening and they get flooded with 90 resumes in a week. Easily 70 of these are clearly underqualified or pure garbage. another...
@Chad tbh its probably more than 70
@enderland Based on my personal experience which is having an office next to the guy who does recruiting and listening to him talk and theorize a lot, they don't have models. They have predictive analysis they sometimes use to try and judge a person's personality and how well they'll fit into the job, but it's not a make or break factor in if a person gets hired or not
They all feel like things you pulled out of thin air with nothing to back them up. And the tone of your post makes it feel more like a rant
@Rachel Is your guy the "I have to do recruiting for my organization" or a "my career is recruiting" type guy though?
I am not saying you are wrong I am saying your answer does not meet the qualities of a good answer on the site.
5:36 PM
@enderland "My career is recruiting, but only for a single company" (although technically its a few companies now)
(He's really into it, always discussing articles or theories about hiring or recruiting. Our industry has a fairly high turnover rate)
@Rachel ... seems he has no idea wtf he's doing OR your office environment is not good to work in for some reason... ;-)
Recruiting is basically a sales job. But you are selling the company and the work, and you are picky about your customers.
I was merely offering an explanation to WHY the models are there, and yes of course they have a model or some kind of methodology (for certain positions) to widdle down potential applicants... HR software to do just that is a million dollar industry
My point is it doesn't f** matter what the model is because there are too many variables for it to be anything but random*
I wasn't ranting but I am now
@maple_shaft Eh, I'm not as convinced - for people who are really good at something, they can often identify "excellence" within that expertise very quickly for a variety of reasons
@enderland Is intuition considered a model?
5:41 PM
@maple_shaft I'm not saying it's a model, I'm responding to your "it's random b/c of too many avaribles" part
@maple_shaft That is not what we do here though. We answer questions... not provide our opinions. That is what forums do.
@Chad o rly
@enderland OK That is not what we are supposed to do here :p
@enderland Then we are in agreement, no large company wants to trust an HR employee's intuition on somebody though, they want to break it down into a science that anybody off the street can follow a script and end up with good results
but what ends up happening is junk science
and people believe in it
@maple_shaft I wish I could remember where but I recall a REALLY fascinating study on doctors and accuracy of diagnosis - someone came up with a really solid mathematical prediction model which was better than many doctors were, but, people didn't want to trust it - IGNORING that it was proven to be better
5:44 PM
@maple_shaft And I think if you can provide some proof of that other than your opinion you would have the basis of a good answer to that question
@maple_shaft Not all of it is junk, however it needs to be understood that it's not 100% accurate and to use your own judgement and not just "trust the model"
Here's the model that I think our company uses: piworldwide.com
@Chad Well how am I supposed to prove that? :(
@enderland The problem is when the mathematical model is wrong it is often spectacularly wrong with life or death consequences. And we want someone to blame(and sue) when something goes wrong and you cant blame math.
"Sometimes faith feels more like a strong suspicion"
@maple_shaft If you cant then you probably should not claim it as fact in an answer here.
5:49 PM
I strongly believe it though, so I will leave it there...
even if I can't prove it
@maple_shaft You need to back it up with something other that this is what I feel.
So i will just take the downvotes like Tony took bullets at the end of Scarface
@Chad oh for sure. this is why it'll be maaaany years before self-driving cars are more accepted imo
defiant to the end
@maple_shaft I actually like your answer. It's the reason why a personal reference to a job position is so valuable (for BOTH parties) because it can cut that entire pile of BS out
5:51 PM
@enderland As long as we can sue google for screwing up the car we will be fine.
@enderland ty
The first half of your post sounds like a political rant from circa 3 years ago. Just and FYI, bundling mortgages with different risk envelopes into one security makes for a lot of sense to a lot of people who need to build hedges. The reasons for the financial crisis were much more complicated than 'bad risk models'. — suslik 52 mins ago
Accuse me of being political then try to bait me into a political argument with a different political statement
@maple_shaft It is a bad analogy
Why am I so worked up by this?
@maple_shaft It's monday?
@Chad I thought it was clever but apparently the entire destruction of the world economy only a few years ago still has people a bit ired up
5:56 PM
@maple_shaft well the problem wasnt the any one thing. The math did not go wrong, the people screwed up. This was forecast back before the housing market crashed in 2007
Everyone said that isnt going to happen. Now they are saying the US Government is not going to take over as a totalatrian regime...
@Chad they are far too incompetent for that to happen ;)
@enderland I do not think for a second that Obama is making any mistakes. He knows what he is doing and is doing it with the intention of reaping the expected results.
I read a LOT of books about this from MANY different perspectives. It was a perfect storm of events that either fueled it or sparked it in conjuction.
@maple_shaft lol It was the obvious conclusion to policies designed to encourage growth at all costs and eliminate consequences of taking risk.
If McDonalds had to wait for a week to pay all of its employees then people would have lobbed the blame where it actually belonged.
6:03 PM
1) Risk models that didn't take into a global drop in real estate value
2) Banks trying to package things they can't sell to offset the risk
3) The conflict of interest that Banks were PAYING rating agencies to judge the risk of their own financial products
4) Collapse of Lehman brothers
BTW... 3 is the most important
If Lehman didnt collapse SunTrust would have in 2 weeks
and BoA was techinically already in default on alot of their debt
@enderland yummm popcorn
people thought that they were buying a Lexus and instead were buying a Pinto
@maple_shaft lol people like you still think there is a difference
viva la revelution!
@Chad People like me? wtf is that supposed to mean... I wouldn't trust those investment bansk with $5 to go to the store for me
6:07 PM
The problem is not with the people doing the work in the bank. The problems are at the top and in the people writing the laws they have to follow.
and the fact that they are the same people
@Chad With the financial overhaul bill, one of the things they tried to change was that banks can't pay for their instruments to be judged by ratings agencies, but then that takes control away from the investment banks to influence the ratings agencies so they put up a fuss about it and Poof its gone
so nothing has changed since 4 years ago
except that we are all collectively quite a bit poorer as a result
@maple_shaft They never addressed the real problem. That is that the government was mandating and guaranteeing loans that they knew were going to fail. And loaning money to people they knew would never pay it back.
@Chad If they honestly believed it would never be paid back, then they wouldn't have given them money
@maple_shaft That I blame on a loss of expectations of acting responsibly.
^^^ encouraged irresponsibility and they knew
investment banks knew and played hot potato with the toxic mortgages until they could find a patsy
6:13 PM
@maple_shaft There is a difference between it will never be paid back and loaning money to people who will never pay it back. The difference is FannieMay and FreddieMac who will pay it back to the bank
@Chad That and AIG being bailed out
The government wasn't the cause though, they were the patsy
The governement allowed for policies to be put in place that were ripe for abuse
The abuse of the policies caused it
@Chad ... and who sets policies in government :)
The same people who run the banks, and corporations
the same people who are the house on the Wall St. casino
People like to point the finger at the government, but they don't realize the true power players hide behind it and use it to their advantage
6:16 PM
We cant change those people we can change the governemtn
idk what was so bad about all the financial stuff, really, it was just a small blip. nothing to really get worked up about
@Chad Can we?
can we really?
Yes but I expect that we would end up on opposite sides of the battlefield
@Chad Nope. I wouldn't even be there
because it is pointless
The new masters of the world don't have national boundaries anymore
@maple_shaft technically google is based in the usa
6:21 PM
@enderland George Soros could buy google with cash...
@Chad oh I know. but google probably knows more about him than he does :o
So could the Koch brothers
Best form of government... Benevolent Monarchy. Because it doesn't give people false hope for real freedom, the authority figure is pretty much random, and if you are lucky, he is actually making decisions with the best intentions of his subjects in mind
there, it had to be said
We had the best form of government... but we sold it.
You guys are really cynical and depressed about this
6:25 PM
Well Lincoln took some of it then we sold the rest
I am
But that is why i have a mini bunker in my basement :p
here, have a random cat picture to cheer yourself up
@enderland I am not depressed at all. It is just the way of things
Im more of a bunny man :p
@Chad ffff that was the other option I had when randomly googling, hah. went with cat...
7:00 PM
New feature request. Notice when users upvote alot of bad posts and ask them if they are upvoting because it is a good answer or because they like they way they feel...
A: A better down-voting mechanism?

YannisThe root cause of the issue is that the voting system is horribly skewed in favour of upvotes. A much simpler solution would be for upvotes on answers to cost reputation. Let's put our money where our mouth is...

One of my less popular ideas...
We should just open up a window where you get to choose from :This answer makes me feel good, this answers the question well, I really like the poster, and This answer sucks donkey balls
I suspect we will get alot of this answer makes me feel good :p
@Chad - not once people realize that their "this answer makes me feel good" doesn't count as much as "this answers the question well" :)
Make all rep changes happen daily so you do not see the effects immediately.
I know it wont happen... probably not even a good idea just irratates me to see all these people upvote answers that suck because they like the way the answer feels.
7:14 PM
@Chad But then how will I get immediate validation when I actually bother to answer :(
@BenBrocka - hourly recalc then?
@BenBrocka You can still see the up votes just wont know how much rep you get till the next day
I like the way this feels costs you 1 rep :p
@Chad is it a common problem? I don't pay that close attention to up/down votes (except for my own)
@Chad heheheh
Upvote audits, gives an upvote if you put "this is useful and relevant", you an electric shock if you put "I know this feel"
@BenBrocka We will need mind reading technology so they cant lie.
We need to up the reopen vote to 5k +
That would make me happier
7:23 PM
@Chad only 15 people have 5k+ now though
Yes I know
can still be reopened by mods
Actually we should have enough users to move to the graduated rep requirements I would think
5k for a beta site would be pretty extreme, that's over 20k launched-site rep
7:53 PM
I think @Chad knows exactly what he's suggesting...
Questions take to long to get closed and reopened too fast
@AdamV Yes, this is a huge problem on this particular site IMO
@enderland ah, interesting. I try to only upvote something that answers the question, so I didn't realize. I rarely downvote non-answers though; I should work on that
wow, looking at my history i've never downvoted
@Chad you can vote to close if something is reopened, as long as you haven't voted to close it the first time
@Chad any Q in particular? i'll vote to close if you point me to a bad one
8:12 PM
@AdamV I've posted all my thoughts on this on meta here :)
@BenBrocka I usually have
Q: How to use multiple offers to negotiate a higher salary?

Chetan MukhopadhyayI am facing this situation. A few days back, I got an offer from CompanyA and I verbally accepted it. Yesterday I got another offer from CompanyB, which is paying a higher salary (about 12%more). After much thought and deliberation, I have decided to go with CompanyA. My specific question is ...

@AdamV I assume he means
Q: How to encourage an employer to adopt the "Programmer's Bill of Rights"?

hdmanJeff Atwood posted back in 2006 an article entitled "Programmer's Bill of Rights". To summarize: Every programmer shall have two monitors Every programmer shall have a fast PC Every programmer shall have their choice of mouse and keyboard Every programmer shall have a comfortable chair Every p...

Actually no
I could still cast on that one... its not a bad question just not the question the OP asked
@BenBrocka I voted to reopen that one after the edits made it more amenable to answering
plus i've answered it myself :)
IMO as is it's either not generic enough or too broad; 6 questions in one basically
8:18 PM
@Chad Yeah, I wasn't sure about that one
As evidenced by assorted answers answering various bits and pieces of it
IMO this is NARQ because these are 6 different problems. Maybe a general "how can I get stuff" (to which the obvious, general answer is "prove it's useful to the company") might be okay, but 6 different, specific requests is a mouthful for one question. The answers also vary a lot; a fast internet connection probably requires the whole company to change, vs buying a second monitor only for developers and so on. — Rarity 10 mins ago
@BenBrocka that's true; if you broke it up into 6 questions they'd each be good
although somewhat repetitive
can you vote to reopen 2x?
It didn't say "no" when i tried
And that is another issue with reopening
8:22 PM
@Chad I think you can, provided there was an edit in between.
I'm not so sure any edit would count, the system might be smart enough to only count larger edits.
You can only vote to reopen/close once each question (you get one of each)
At least I don't think you get multiple reopen votes, not sure where/if that's documented though
@BenBrocka Should I say "yes" to the re-open popup and see for sure?
I am going to open a meta about that question so it hopefully will not get reopened
with out being fixed
Q: Can the question about the Programmers bill of rights be saved?

ChadHow to encourage an employer to adopt the "Programmer's Bill of Rights"? This question has already had a major revision, Several of us feel this revision changed the question from its original intent. Original Question: Programmer's bill of rights: does your workplace follow ...

8:56 PM
I was originally going to ask something of that nature, but last time I did I received negative votes because the question had no real answer and was subject to opinions. I can see now that I'm getting negative votes anyway. You can close the question and my account. I'll ask friends and colleagues instead of people that feel the need to vote down instead of offer constructive advice. — Sam 1 hour ago
@enderland I saw that. I also noted his other question was +4/-0, so I'm not sure what he was complaining about?
@AdamV That is what @Chad would describe as a perfect "Dear Workplace" question (I think he would at least...)
or is he referring to a different question that's gone now?
that other question, I and someone else got into a comment discussion
don't even remember what i was saying though
@Rachel - in that case, is it better to leave this one closed and direct them back to that question? — Adam V 24 mins ago
@AdamV Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
@YannisRizos hehe, why not? i would figure whichever question comes closest to answering what the OP was originally asking would be the right one to leave open?
9:03 PM
@AdamV i think because @YannisRizos is a moderator on Programmers... :)
@AdamV Both versions of the question are unaswerable, unfortunately.
@enderland ahh, heheheh
@YannisRizos I kinda want to ask a question like, "how can I convince my management to give me a stapler damnit"
Well that was interesting. I posted my answer to the meta question, quite literally got a downvote within 3 seconds (the posted time still said "just now"), then it got reversed and now it's upvoted? O.o
A: Can the question about the Programmers bill of rights be saved?

RachelI feel the current version is OK for this site the way it is, however you are correct that it is not the same question the OP originally asked. There is a comment on the question that says: @hdman myself, rachel and chad have collaboratively made a few edits to hopefully make your question...

lol - I saw that too
9:14 PM
Total time taken: 45 seconds or so :)
@Rachel Someone hit the wrong arrow the first time?
@AdamV Possibly, although it may have been due to the first 10 words or so of my question saying "I feel the current version is OK for this site the way it is". I was re-reading the question and realized that sets the wrong tone for the answer unless you continue reading
But anyways, I'm heading home. I've said my piece, and you can do what you want with it ^_^
My question is that it got closed since your recent updates, so would people re-open it again without additional edits?
ah cool, seeya later
Parking a huge pickup is weird
Well, driving a different car is always weird the first time I guess
@BenBrocka yeah, depends on how much practice you have with 'em
whenever my wife used to come to visit me driving her pickup, i always had to come help her park it at my apartment complex since the spots were really narrow
9:28 PM
This is probably the longest car I've driven by like 5 feet. At least it felt that way. So weird when you don't know where your sides are
@Rachel The first line got the down vote the content of the post got it reversed
@AdamV I parked in the back so I could have empty spots on either side. I'm not that great a parker even with my "small" e350
@BenBrocka If you mean because you can use it to push pruis's out of the way your right :p
@BenBrocka isn't "small e350" an oxymoron? :)
@BenBrocka isnt that a van?
9:34 PM
@Chad Sedan, though they have station wagons (getting a station wagon would sort of defeat half the purpose of getting a mercedes though)
@BenBrocka LOL there is a ford van e350 but its the big cargo van :p
@AdamV Yeah, it's their big sedan, not super big though. The next size down are the compact C/A classes
@Chad i was reading "ford e350" as well
Oh, no, Mercdes e350, forgot ford had them as well
@BenBrocka that makes much more sense then :)
and i'd definitely park that with spaces around me as well
9:36 PM
So what kind of truck?
Some sort of big chevy thing
I don't know American cars that well, let alone pickups
@BenBrocka the big one is the Silverado, i believe
unless there's a bigger one
@BenBrocka #firstworldproblems
@AdamV looks about right
@BenBrocka Hey now. I drive a station wagon...
9:45 PM
...are you a 45 year old soccer mom?
.... no :|
I'm used to people giving me crap about it though. I'll take a bit of crap for being able to haul a ton of stuff and still get 35MPG highway
@enderland And by no you mean yes on the inside :p
@Chad LOL. no soccer mom's have minivans
I don't haul much stuff at all
@enderland I dont think they make minivans anymore... their isnt a unibody minivan design that i am aware of
Its all xUV's
9:48 PM
@Chad there aren't many station wagons either (if you buy new, you basically are forced to buy european - bmw, audi, mercedes)
The taurus X looks pretty cool and minivan like :p
Do you have an old 9 passenger that get 4 miles to the gallon and quart(of motor oil)
I kinda like the CRVs for what they are. Not as dorky as a van/station wagon, can carry stuff without the stupid size/excessive roll over risk/gas consumption of a full SUV
Drove my dad's Honda CRV for a year or so. It's not terrible for a 10 year old car
@BenBrocka I do too. When I bought this car though my finances dictacted a lot of the purchase - i've been pretty happy with it :)
@BenBrocka What is the point of being an american if you cant consume your body weight in gas every 15 minutes :p
@BenBrocka I've got the ford Escape hybrid, it's got decent gas mileage, good visibility, a decent amount of space in the back
9:52 PM
@AdamV what's good mileage?
downside, mine doesn't have any air vents for the back seats so it's pretty hot back there most of the time
@enderland according to the onboard computer, i can get 25 without trying, and 30+ if i pay attention (which never happens, i enjoy going 80 too much)
My car's around 20MPG in city, allegedly, but I haven't bothered to check using it's MPG display yet. I fill up once a month most times since I don't drive much
@AdamV I get better than that in my non hybrid edge
I get 32 in it
if i'm driving around the neighborhood slowly enough, the motor turns off altogether and i'm cruising just on battery and getting 40+
but i just never do that :)
If the computer can be trusted anyway
9:54 PM
@Chad yeah, honestly it wasn't the best of ideas, i lived too far away from work down a major highway to really make use of the hybrid
if i gave it to my wife to drive instead it'd probably be great, she's the one who takes short trips
A hybrid would be great but I'm still iffy on the current models
@BenBrocka speaking from experience, might not be worth it yet :)
few more years and i can see it
I wanted to get a tesla but in illinois if a pot hole isnt 6 inches deep they dont fix it so I figued it would take all of 15 minutes for me to total it from road wear
the other issue is i'm in an area where gas prices are lower than the nat'l average, makes it harder to justify
@AdamV Yeah, I hear iffy tales. And I'd prefer something from Mercedes. That didn't look dorky like the Smarts
9:57 PM
@BenBrocka I probably will get a hatchback as my next car. I'm not totally sold on the focus station wagon... though the european-only current version looks awesome
Don't like hatch backs either :P
@BenBrocka well lets be real, you drive a mercedes ;)
My car's not that expensive, I did buy used after all
Lots of places use my car as taxis in Europe
Hah, true enough - but in the USA it's a Mercedes!
means you must be a high roller $$$$$$$$$$
I don't mind that perception all too much
10:13 PM
A bonus of a lame looking station wagon is I don't have to worry a whole ton about someone stealing it either heh
But the price drops by 2/3rds or more after the first 6 years. Mercedes finances in 2 3 year terms, after that they move them off the mercedes lots
tbh if I was going for that type of car it'd be BMW all the way
So you can get an amazing car for less than a new Honda Civic or some BS, and it's more advanced in most ways than the new cheaper cars
Not as into BMW/Audi as Mercedes
I'm the exact opposite :)

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