The Water Cooler - 2019-10-02

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Pointy Haired Boss

2:14 AM

-2

Q: Heard a lot from mods on their way out

It's great to hear the sentiments and protestations of loyalty to the site users and all the rest. But lets keep it real. Not one mod stepped up to the plate to help TWP by remaining for at least a bit longer. And realistically that's the proof to the pudding. It's a pretty clear cut attempt to...

1 hour later…

3:20 AM

And there goes my diamond. I'll be around lurking, but I won't be particularly active in the community for the next while. Thanks again for making my life not too difficult over the past few years :)

3

4:02 AM

And so it begins

2 hours later…

6:05 AM

Ok, so until something is being sorted out, members of the CM (community moderation) team are monitoring the site, clearing flags, etc. Please raise any concerning posts/events here in the WC to make things easier (you do this already, so please keep doing it).

2

6:34 AM

r/a imo: workplace.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/6331/…

What do you all think about making a comment archive room similar to the one for MSO here: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/197298/…

To keep on top of bad comments for deletion

7:24 AM

I meant this: workplace.meta.stackexchange.com/a/6348/44144

r/a imo

7:38 AM

What is r/a?

rude or abusive

Not uncommon for that user

3 hours later…

10:27 AM

This is a good question that deserves more votes: workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/145789/…

10:59 AM

I already upvoted that one

1 hour later…

12:01 PM

@Monoandale It's all about meeting each other's expectations, really. Problem is, these expectations are varied and unstated.

...which is why those who violate said (unstated) expectations often get lumped together with R/A because the reptile part of your brain that looks out for your ego is a lot faster than the higher, Athenian bit, which takes the time to actually think about things

So it makes sense, as a general strategy, to observe your surroundings and learn about those expectations - through osmosis, almost - and choose how much or how little you wish to conform with them.

Your writing style is direct, sometimes abrasive, and sometimes unnecessarily confrontational.

They used to say, a gentleman is he who is never rude, except for when he means to. I like that, so I try to follow it.

Which is why your writing style violates my - unstated until now - expectations of behaviour. Because you seem to be sometimes abrasive, sometimes confrontational, without real need to do so.

That's just a small part of the real world

12:21 PM

I find it amusing that people are up in arms against the company because they "fired" Monica for expressing disagreement with the company's proposed change, but at the same time, they are berating monoandale for disagreeing with the community consensus on Monica.

12:34 PM

@Magisch I find it amusing that Monandale's post was found to be rude and abusive, but this one was not.....

https://workplace.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/6104/diversity-in-this-stack-and-addressing-the-difficulties-of-neurodivirse-user-ba/6107#6107

Nothing like double standards

2

Don't blame me. Well, you can if you like.

Hi @Monoandale

@RichardU You probably read my comment under that post. I evaluated it as personal advice, not gloating grave dancing

2

Maybe my personal perspective colored my reaction to it

@Magisch I am of two mind on recent events.

1) I don't like to see ANYONE treated unfairly.

2) After banging my head against a wall for over a year about this very thing, action is only taken when it bites a particular person in the backside.

So, while I don't like what happened, on principle, and I do think it was wrong, I experienced the same damn thing. Worse, actually.

Few things describe an individual as the love for censorship. But this is no news: last time I engaged in data-supported dialogue, I was basically told "we are the mods, we are right and you will shut up if you know what's good for you". I cannot overstate how glad I am about the recent improvements. Let's hope we continue in this direction.

12:45 PM

on a side note, I don't understand why your chat comments are being flagged.

I disagree with you, but I don't see anything "offensive".

No actually I don't disagree with you, because I don't know your history with Monica. You're happy she's no longer a mod. I'm not happy with the way she stopped being a mod. These two attitudes are not incompatible

Yes, @Monoandale - Mods are seeing your comment as flagged. I (a mod from Money.SE) rejected the flag. The comment is you, sharing your opinion. Not offensive.

Mister Positive

@JoeTaxpayer "I cannot overstate how glad I am about the recent improvements. Let's hope we continue in this direction." This seem to be gloating to me, which is offensive IMO which is why I flagged it. I have seen worse though...

The issue with Monica is being discussed sitewide, I home, as a community, we can get along, be nice, be respectful, and move forward.

@MisterPositive - Trying to censor that, in a private chat room, is a bit much. I'll be the first to say that it's tough for us (mods from elsewhere) to respond to things like this. (And he just left room).

The step-in is appreciated, Joe.

@Monoandale - if I reference you here, are you using they/their? I don't want to stop by, and risk a worse faux pas. @Snow - no prob. Crazy times.

1:00 PM

@JoeTaxpayer while the comment in isolation wasn't particularly offensive - it did form the continuation of a pattern (here and on meta) already deemed as rude/abusive i.e. where the user had been, for want of a better word crowing on meta - and being specifically abusive with regards to Monica as a person and this may have played a part in the user(s) flagging that comment

certainly it was why I flagged it - regardless of wider events being on-going taking the opportunity of reduced moderation coverage on the Workplace to carry out a personal vendetta is highly distasteful IMO

Hiya... seems like there's something I might be able to do to help?

@motosubatsu - I understand. The issue is complex, feelings hurt, and it's not isolated to even just a few stacks.

that said I'm happy for mods to exercise their discretion in choosing which flags to approve or not.. that's how the system works and what mods do so I hope you don't perceive any criticism here

@Catija - Might take reading back a ways. Yes.

@Catija or visiting meta

It's unfortunate that off-site moderators and CMs don't have the on-site experience that helps in these situations. Doubly unfortunate that people may take advantage of that.

4

1:54 PM

Holy

It's busy in here

yah

just the peanut gallery @Twyxz

<throws peanut at rath>

hey, this is a nut-free chatroom

invoking school systems

community bumped the february election post ... even the robot is in on the sarcasm!

2:16 PM

:D

You know, twisting the knife like that is always going to rile people up against you, and you probably know that. Please just don't

@Monoandale it doesn't seem right what you're doing ...

so, please stop doing it. You're actually hurting people who are in grief about this situation

Mister Positive

2:43 PM

@Monoandale You don't appear to care about other people with your snarky comments.

@JoeTaxpayer disagree and the user is back slinging more crap.

@Vogel612 An ongoing problem is the fact that opinions have been suppressed for so long, people are coming out swinging.

Ah, another one of his chat posts squished.

Look out folks, it's hammer time

suspensions start in 10...9...8....7.....6....5....4....

/me puts head in hands.

@djsmiley2k yep.

Mister Positive

@Snow I want peanuts.

I have cookies?

2:46 PM

The problem with censorship is that the feelings people are trying to exprsss don't go away.

2

The problem with people is they don't go away ;)

@djsmiley2k I am living proof of that, much to the chagrin of my enemies

@RichardU which makes all the 1984 references so much more annoying

@Vogel612 well, when newspeak is being enforced site wide....

2

singular they is not newspeak ...

it's in fact oldspeak

2:49 PM

@Vogel612 xir may disagree with you

or is it xe?

I keep forgetting.

But the 1984 reference is valid, as the point of newspeak was to create a language entirely devoid of connotation, sanitized to the point where no emotion can be conveyed at all.

And how are people with autism, given to rigid thinking, being taken into account witth these new rules?

@RichardU which is not what respecting pronouns is about ...

@RichardU I haven't seen the final version of the new rules, so I won't comment on that

@Vogel612 it's about compelled speech, not respect.

2

This is going to be terribly rough on people who are on the autism spectrum

@RichardU By your definition the rules of polite society are about compelled speech.

@Vogel612 That's not what I am saying at all.

@RichardU yea, and the status quo is terribly rough on people who use any pronoun but he/him

2:53 PM

Do we have phone companies kicking people off the lines for calling someone else a jerk?

@RichardU SE is not a telecommunications provider.

@Vogel612 I was personally subjected to gay bashing back in the 1970s

@Vogel612 neither is polite society a telecommunications provider, or a forum, or a website, yet you used that to advance your argument.

Now, of course SE can get woke and go broke, as Tech Republic did, that is their choice.

@RichardU respecting he/him and she/her pronouns is mandated by polite society, is it not?

@Vogel612 there is no such mandate.

@Vogel612 what is SE doing to make the site more welcoming to autistics?

Why do we not count?

that's whataboutism.

Mister Positive

2:57 PM

@Vogel612 I would say use a person's name or they and them. I would also say as an example referring to someone as a him when they identify as a her is unacceptable.

So, nothing?

good to know.

I mean ... yes, that's a problem, but it's not the problem all of the mess is currently about, is it?

@Vogel612 the problem is compelling speech

you will never win.

I probably have been into far more LGBT events, gay bars, and other functions than any of you who are complaining.

because you're jumping to conclusions without considering that the public facts can also support a different conclusion

@Vogel612 no, I'm expressing my opinion.

Mister Positive

2:59 PM

@Vogel612 To which facts are you referring?

I'd rather not see this site die, but you're heading down that path.

@MisterPositive I've honestly lost the exact overview of what is public

@RichardU I'm a diamond moderator, not affiliated with SE ...

@Vogel612 how do you refer to people on the autism spectrum

Mister Positive

@Vogel612 A lot of the facts I do not believe are public.

@RichardU with the pronouns they express...

So I assume your pronouns are he/him?

3:00 PM

@Vogel612 would you call someoe an autist, an autistsic, or someone the spectrum?

Usually I would avoid that, because the term seems to be quite loaded.

@Vogel612 so, you are assuming we are so fragile that we'd be offended by a reference to our condition?

isn't that infantilizing us?

If I needed (for whatever reason) to describe to someone that a person we're talking about is autistic, I might use neurodivergent.

Mister Positive

@Vogel612 I would have to Google that to know what it means.

@Vogel612 I am actually offended by that term. I prefer autist

3:02 PM

Cool, thanks for telling me.

see how this can be gamed?

I will not use that term to describe you in the future

Good, because I am Richard, and far more than just my condition, as someone who is LGBTQI2SAA is more than that

I want to note that pronouns and group labels (autist, gay, trans, ...) are different things, though

@Vogel612 no, they're not. It's all the same, it's about compelling language

3:05 PM

Yes, they are... Pronouns serve a very different grammatical function than nouns or adjectives

@Vogel612 not the point. It's about censorship and compelling speech.

Worse, this is a fad, nothing more.

what part are you referring to as a fad, exactly?

for 95% of my lifespan nobody even mentioned pronoouns. It didn't even become a thing until 2015

that doesn't mean it's a fad ...

@Vogel612 sure it does, it's already dying out in most places.

3:08 PM

@Vogel612 The problem is the world has become a place where being offended is some kind of weird right.

3

@Vogel612 how did pronouns, which have been around for thusand of years, and only become an issue in the past 5?

@djsmiley2k Yep, When I was growing up, we were taught to deal. I was born blue, with permanent brain damage and partial deafness, in addition to the autism. Being a victim back in the day was not a thing to be treasured. You had to fight, and be better than most just to get a fair shake.

And that's a good thing, because now I am better than many, and able to help others pull themselves up as well.

@RichardU Amen.

I'm autistic with severe social anixety, depression and PTSD.

My college lecturer told me I'd never survive university

@RichardU not sure why you don't consider the fight of trans* people to have their pronouns recognized as valid then ...

to prove him wrong I got my degree lol.

@djsmiley2k We have got to talk, you are mirroring my existence. I'd collect "you'd never"

@Vogel612 what makes you think I'm not trans?

3:12 PM

@RichardU just an assumption, based on previous interactions and your current behaviour

@RichardU my life is pretty boring, but in my head it was mostly horrific.

@Vogel612 I don't recall any previous interactions with you.

born, nearly died, nearly died, nearly died...

@djsmiley2k sounds like my life... :D

@RichardU it's been quite a while, so I'm not surprised :)

3:14 PM

eventually that got boring around the age of 5

@Vogel612 I don't reveal much about my personal life online. But I will say that many of the things I've been accused of, and labels I've been slapped with are ironic to anyone who knows me.

@djsmiley2k I've been homeless twice, destitute three times, had a childhood that would be the perfect making for a serial killer, got beaten nearly daily for being gay until I got big, and funny...

this of course was back in the latter half of the 20th century

most of my beating was myself, on myself, mentally.

but.. yes

Mister Positive

theregister.co.uk/2019/10/01/stack_exchange_controversy

3

@Vogel612 I will say this: There are only three ways to really offend me:

1)Pity me or be offended on my behalf

2)Presume to know what is in my head or heart

3)Accuse me of hiding behind my problems.

Other than that, I'm mellow.

@MisterPositive It's on Facebook, twitter, and hacker news as well.

really @MisterPositive? The bleeping register?

oy vey

Mister Positive

3:19 PM

@rath That says a lot....

This is a textbook case of how not to handle a crisis

I ain't got enough popcorn for all this attention

gonna need more peanuts

@Vogel612 This may or may not surprise you, but I am subscribed to Prince of Queens on YouTube... and he ain't referring to Queens NY

I don't know who that is, soo ...

@Vogel612 here's a hint: One of his telecasts is called "The Gaytriarchy"

3:22 PM

In response to an email from The Register, Stack Exchange director of community Sara Chipps said,

> "On Friday, we revoked privileges for one Stack Exchange moderator when they refused to abide by our Code of Conduct (CoC) after being asked to change their behavior multiple times. The disagreement stemmed from an interpretation of a certain policy, but our CoC is not up for debate."

always a good idea to get scared shitless when someone says this is not up for debate

@rath So, when in a hole, not only did they proceed to dig, but brought out a backhoe

2

I had no idea it was about gender pronouns. My own view on the subject was formed while following Jordan Peterson's adventures in the Canadian Parliament

@RichardU don't call her a ....

/me sighs

I'm still confused from what's in the register

who called who a bigot...

@djsmiley2k the problem is the crybullies are never satisfied. One thing I always liked about the LGBT community of New York, esp the east villiage, is they were always about just getting along. One time a bartender was fired for being straight, and the patrons shut the bar down until they brought her back

_Cellio, for what it's worth, does not include any preferred pronouns on her Twitter account. [...]

Asked to confirm that Cellio was the moderator in question, a company spokesperson said, "Cellio (she/her) [...]_

wow

you. will. be. pronouned.

3:28 PM

@rath I prefer to defy description whenever possible. I don't even insist on a particular form of my real name. I get called Rich, Rick, Richie, Richard.... I don't invest that much in my name, much less my pronouns.

If anyone ever asks me, my pronouns are ".", "..", and"..."

@Vogel612 as for trans-people I know, most prefer the gender as they present, and don't get any more upset about anyone calling them a he or a she than anyone else does.

@RichardU I once worked in a Lan Gaming Cafe

I was known as 'Smiley'

very few people there knew my real name, even less referred to me by it.

names are words. words are dust.

@djsmiley2k I'm known as "Loki" in quite a few places too. :D

not everyone is as nihilistic or indifferent to how they are referred to as you two seem to be ...

@djsmiley2k I guess one advantage of a rough life is the little stuff doesn't bother you.

@rath Sorry to just drop in like this (I'm just lurking about) but Monica herself insisted on using those and only those pronouns for her. She said even being referred to by "they" was insulting to her. So, the spokesperson was explicitly following Monica's instructions in that response. It wasn't out of nowhere.

3:32 PM

@Vogel612 It's not nihilism or indifference. It's the simple fact that I have far greater worries than what someone calls me. I nearly died back in august.

@Rubiksmoose Thanks, joke's on me for not looking for context. That was helpful

@Vogel612 I also experienced nearly daily beatings for being gay when I was growing up, so a few misplaced words here or there seem trivial by comparison.

@RichardU I'm glad the world has changed for the better so people can care about words instead of dealing with physical injury.

@rath it actually makes matters worse when you think about it. All the ramming of pronouns down our throats and wouldn't even respect her pronouns.

@Vogel612 It's changed for the better that you don't get beaten, but throwing a worse tantrum over words than someone ever mentions about physical violence is not an improvement.

@RichardU Who wouldn't respect her pronouns?

3:36 PM

@RichardU I don't agree with that moral assessment

@Vogel612 I still get called "retard", and told to kill myself online. Do you think I care?

@RichardU Judging from what you said before: no.

@Vogel612 I'm sure you don't, which is sad, because it makes it impossible for you to value any improvement.

@RichardU not sure what that refers to ...

@Vogel612 words are just words. BTW, a good reply for "you should kill yourself" is "If I had to live your life, I'd consider that option"

3:38 PM

an alternative is to stop associating with people that tell you to kill yourself. Just putting it out there ...

@Vogel612 I remember when gay bashing was a thing to the point where there were even parody T-shirts of the John Deere "Nothing runs like a deere" to "Nothing runs like a queer", with people chasing a gay man with baseball bats.

@RichardU Also the vast majority of online platforms out there have guidelines against behaviour like that, so reporting would also be an option ...

@Vogel612 The internet is a rough place. People can be mean, and you can't block every jerk.

@RichardU I'm too young for that, and I think I'm reasonably happy about that

@Vogel612 yes, you are too young. You don't know the abject terror trans people lived in, a very real, and justified fear of getting beaten to death if they weren't passable, or not in a group, or in a safe area.

So, when I see people reacting to pronouns, giving the fact that in my lifetime, people have feared being beaten to death.... see the point?

3:41 PM

existing improvement doesn't preclude striving for even more improvement

@Vogel612 and the ends does not justify the means.

@Vogel612 but your generation is acting like you fear for your lives, when that fight was fought and won, DECADES ago.

and with that we seem to have reached an impassee

I rmember the stonewall riots.

@RichardU I'm reasonably sure that the fight is not won when I see what trans people share on twitter regularly...

Battles were won, sure, but war rages on.

@Vogel612 You've never taken the time to get to know me.

3:43 PM

@RichardU remember that still happens in various parts of the world

@Vogel612 but that's just it, we never saw it as an actual battle.

@RichardU that doesn't mean I can't debate you ...

@RoryAlsop Yes, in Saudi Arabia, Iran.....

who you are is irrelevant to the views you profess to me

@RichardU Even in the western world. Today. So it's not acceptable to say "you don't know" or "you are too young to have seen..."

3:44 PM

@Vogel612 and that is sad

hello every body

Or to be more exact: Who you are may have shaped the views you hold today, but that doesn't stop me from having different views.

@RichardU the US...

@RoryAlsop it's valid, because the young don't have any sense of context

@Vogel612 The problen is I am discussing you are debating. I am not trying to win anything.

@RichardU I think you are mistaken there. I definitely won't downplay what you may have suffered, but you also should not downplay any group's context as less valid than your own.

@Vogel612 Care ti site three cases in the US in recent memory

3:46 PM

@RichardU dude - check most weeks since the trumpton came to power

@RoryAlsop except that I am not drawing on only my experiences. I've lived long enough to see society change

@RichardU good. It still needs to change in places you haven't seen

@RoryAlsop I don't know, Blaire white is till on Youtube...

@RichardU I'm not even going to google that

@RoryAlsop She's a trans Youtuber.

3:48 PM

@RichardU good. And the relevance to Vogel and others' experience not being valid is what exactly?

@RoryAlsop I am not saying that things are perfect or don't need to improve, I am saying that they are better

Mister Positive

@Rubiksmoose I thought that this was in her posts, not when directly people directly, like say in chat?

@RichardU I agree. I also state that it is not enough better, and some places are worse

@RoryAlsop I am not saying that anyone is invalid, I am saying that they lack context.

@RichardU And I think that is an assumption that may be entirely or partially unfounded

3:49 PM

@RoryAlsop I know Iran is worse in my lifetime. I have Iranian friends

so it's best left aside, and instead try to use some of your experiences to help others suffering today

@RichardU I don't need to know all context ever to make an informed decision

@MisterPositive She insisted that the only pronouns used to describe her be she/her. I don't remember her putting any qualifiers on it.

If you have been through that you should be able to guide and support, not make them feel their problems are any less valid

And neither do you

3:50 PM

@RoryAlsop I'm straddling two milenia, two centuries, and six decades. Sorry, that gives me experience and perspective that young people do not have.

@RichardU good - use it to be nice then

@RoryAlsop You have never seen me not to be nice to anyone unless provoked.

So many assumptions being made...

@RichardU I think you could use your experience to be nicer to Vogel, to be honest.

They have not provoked you, and none of your experience invalidates theirs

@RoryAlsop I have been nice. I haven't said that anything invalidates anything.

But I see that my accounts are being dismissed and disgarded with impunity

So anyway @RichardU - as things currently stand, the new CoC will not tolerate folks who don't respect preferred pronouns. Whether or not you think that is important.

@RichardU no they aren't, they just have no relevance to what may affect someone else

3:53 PM

@RoryAlsop exactly, you just said they have no relevance.

Mister Positive

She insisted that the only pronouns used to describe her be she/her. I don't remember her putting any qualifiers on it. -- I am missing some context. What is wrong with her making that choice for herself. Was she refusing to acknowledge other's choices in a conversation?

So, I am supposed to discard the relevance of my experience, in favor of the experiences of others, on the grounds that everyone's experiences are valid?

@RichardU your personal experiences are not more important than anybody else's. No matter what they are. They are very important to you, and the experiences you have had make you potentially very able to help others, but they don't invalidate anybody else's experience, no matter how young they are.

@RoryAlsop But the experiences of the young invalidate mine, eh?

@RichardU nope - not that either

please don't put words in my mouth

3:55 PM

@RoryAlsop it's one or the other.

@RichardU nope. You are wrong.

there is no black and white, this or the other

@RoryAlsop You're putting plenty of words in my mouth.

@RichardU nope

@RoryAlsop Yes, you stated several times that I am saying that the experiences of the younger folk are invalid, which I never said

@RichardU nope - read again

Mister Positive

3:57 PM

@RoryAlsop Has this been published yet?

@RoryAlsop My concern (I wouldn't say issue, because I haven't seen the new CoC yet or how it's going to be interpreted in practice) is around what's going to constitute "respect".

@MisterPositive we have been told what is in it, I don't think it is out yet

@Kaz hence the vast number of mods who have resigned or self suspended

Mister Positive

@RoryAlsop I would not count it as done until it is done. FWIW

@MisterPositive I hope our actions will help it not be as strict as it currently looks to be

Mister Positive

@RoryAlsop Agreed. TBD.

3:58 PM

@RoryAlsop There is a black and white. Because I am not concerned with my own name, much less pronouns, and I see no disrespect. But my experiences and beliefs are to be cast aside because of someone getting upset?

it needs to allow for compromise, finding best outcomes, working together etc

Sounds like MY experiences ar being made invalid....

@RoryAlsop newspeak is not coorporation

@RichardU you see one or the other. That's not the way it is. I'll end my side of this because I see it hitting the loop with you.

@RoryAlsop Sorry, I'm hard-core rigid thinking with my autism. Do you think they'll accept that as valid experience?

Good lord people, what ever happened to the ignore button.....

@RichardU To be honest, I would hope so, and have argued in support of folks with certain autistic behaviours in this exact area

4:01 PM

@RoryAlsop in all serious, I am not being dismissive, I literally do not see the point.

@RichardU I know, and that's okay, but it can be very important for others.

@RoryAlsop honestly, if I could pass on one thing to the younger generation, it would be to stop caring about what other people think about/call/say to you. Focus on yourself, you are the only one who needs to care about you.

Another thing that's going to happen, is that this site will be trolled by people deliberately trying to get a rise out of people by using the wrong pronouns. God help the mods....

@RichardU we know that will happen. Yes. That will be a challenge.

4:42 PM

@RoryAlsop I think part of the confusion here, between us is what I would do PERSONALLY, vs what I think is good policy.

PERSONALLY, I would call people whatever they are comfortable with.

That said, I think that trying to codify that into policy is a bad idea for several reasons.

1)It invites trolling
2)It can be weaponized as it was against Monica

Either way, it is a losing proposition

3

Sorry, I had to collect my thoughts a bit before I realized where the disconnect is.

@RichardU thank you for going to the effort - I do 100% agree with that (my words aren't necessarily best at times either)

@RoryAlsop Also, my thing about words is this: Words only have the power you give them. Unlike a fist coming at you, you can let words pass through you harmlessly. This took me decades to lean myself. Now, when those words come over the internet from people who will never be able to reach you, they have even less power.

My message is simply not to grant that power to anyone else

Or, as Eleanor Roosevelt said, "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission"

@RichardU I hear you. And I too am mostly immune to words (not completely - wish I was) but just remember, some who have been at the mercy of words their whole lives, may not have that agency.

They can hurt - so we need to be aware that some cannot shrug words off so easily

@RoryAlsop Oh, I had to learn, or die.... literally

When I was young, my family called me "Ricky". The kids started calling me "Rick-GAY", while they were beating the crap out of me. I've been suicidal more than once due to the abuse.

That's why you have to find the will within yourself to let those words pass.

So, I am not unsympathetic, quite the contrary, I KNOW what happens when you let those words get to you.

@Vogel612 this may explain things to you a bit ^^^^^^

@RichardU thank you

4:54 PM

thanks for putting in that work :)

@Vogel612 I am seriously not trying to be dismissive. I'm trying to say I've been through it, came out the other side, and know the way.

5:31 PM

Good evening everybody

@DarkCygnus as usual, you missed all the fun

:'(

I was conducting some interviews

Came late to the party

Plenty of time to catch up :)

6:38 PM

@DarkCygnus Long story short. SE's hopes that this would just blow over seem wildly optimistic

2

6:58 PM

@MisterPositive - you are right and I apologize. When elsewhere (as you know, but for others' sake) mods get pinged for chat flags. In other words, a flag here pops up if I am in the Mod chat area. The typical flag is for profanity, etc, aimed towards another member. In which case a click deletes the comment, with no visit to the room. In this case, knowing we are in strange times, I should have abstained. Or if responding, should have visited the room first.

I learned something, and would act differently next time.

Everyone's nerves a little raw atm I think

I think I have a better view of the situation now

And now I find it even more ridiculous that Monica was let go for the possibility that in the future she/her (pun intended) will not use the correct pronouns of the millions of users SE has...

That's why I like to phrase things like, "as OP mentioned", "you should ask them", etc.

user image

Latest current response I'm aware of:

@Aza I think us doing something in a way that was obviously going to cause a significant backlash surrounding both the action we took and the perceived lack of planning, management and communication violated people's expectations in ways that they didn't think were possible. That we proceeded anyway is significant. That we'll continue will be significant. The end ideal result is when people are able to take actions like the one you took, and connect them with our reaction, in a way where our reaction was the best conclusion. If that makes sense. — Tim Post ♦ 2 days ago

Does not look like they'll reverse any decisions taken there, and that they consider the fallout alltogether worth it.

@Magisch have they ever considered reversing decisions?

Probably hundreds of times. SE is not one monolith, but many different people, each of which has all the trappings and complexities of a human being which include lots of self doubt and reflection

That is always worth keeping in mind before getting lost in the outrage

7:11 PM

Or starting one...

point

7:33 PM

lol even reddit said 'sorry [guys|girls|unspecified humans], we messed up'

this really smells like someones got a chip on their shoulder, and suddenly they feel the POOWAAAAAAAR

7:45 PM

@Magisch oh, folks are salivating over this one. The memes are already starting on FB

@Magisch

"Probably hundreds of times. SE is not one monolith, but many different people, each of which has all the trappings and complexities of a human being which include lots of self doubt and reflection
That is always worth keeping in mind before getting lost in the outrage"

I wish I had been extended that courtesy

@djsmiley2k Power should never be entrusted to those who seek it.

@RichardU In your case, it felt like you had a personality clash and a clash of opinion with those running the site, a rift running somewhat deep

and you're not the type to back down or accept placation, so it kind of escalated from there

@Magisch I will not tolerate abuse of any kind towards myself or any other person.

That always has, and always will be the case.

My view, anyways. I like you as a person and value your perspective, but I didn't think what went down was that one sided

@Magisch of course it was. I didn't make it personal, but was subjected to a vicious attack on my character, including assertions that I hated the LGBT community. Can you recall anything so vicious from me?

I ... it's a very peculiar time and place around here. I know what you mean and how you feel, but there's plenty of hurt to go around. We're all so quick from 0 to 100 these days

7:52 PM

@Magisch One thing I value about being a misanthrope is that nothing is ever personal with me. There is right, and there is wrong. I do not attack or impugn the character of anyone, only the actions thereof

I suspect our opinions on many different topics differ almost diametrically, but I don't like the trend of jumping to accusations of bad faith one bit.

@Magisch I've made no accusations, as of yet, nor will I.

And accusations of bad faith have been thrown my way aplenty

@Magisch If you scroll back to the conversation I had with Rory today, you'll see why I am extremely bitter over those insults hurled at me.

I understand, but surely you also see where the others are coming from. You deal with people arguing in bad faith every day, and you deal with so much disruption. At some point, when you've been jamming nails for years, you have a tendency to see nails. This happens in all walks of life

People who are used to being dragged and discriminated against based on their immutable characteristics are perhaps sometimes more sensitive to re-hashing conversations a hundred thousand times. And you get to the point where you've seen "just asking questions" or "just speaking my mind" so often as flimsy excuses for people who don't want to talk but only to insult

@Magisch We are not dogs, and can use our minds to not cringe every time someone folds a newspaper because we have been struck across the nose in the past. And if you read what I wrote to Rory, you know that I have experienced the very things you are talking about.

Like I said, you wield a hammer, and you have to hammer nails all day every day for years, you acquire a tendency to mistake all cylinders for nails. And then, some sympathy and forgiveness must be had for that.

Maybe you can do that

I find myself unable to often

7:59 PM

@Magisch It requires maturity, which comes in time.

And if I do I have to fight the impulse to get really defensive from the repeated abuse really consciously

@Magisch if you ever wish to talk privately, feel free to reach out. I've experienced much in this life, and have much to offer, especially to those who have suffered abuse.

@Magisch the important thing to remember is to never give the power to make you feel inadequate to anyone. NObody can make you feel inferior unless you give them permission to do so.

And as for fighting impulses..... There's quite a story I could share with you.

and in other news, more users were removed....

Mister Positive

8:41 PM

@JoeTaxpayer appreciate you saying that.

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