The Water Cooler

12:13 PM

Kiss everything that presents itself to you? Most times I have seen a PIP in real life, they're not meant to be survivable. — Kilisi 14 hours ago

You gotta love killsi for his "on Point" Humor :D

Richard U

1:04 PM

@Lilienthal I agree with your improvements, thank you.

Raoul Mensink

1:23 PM

@RichardU Things like that are written down in your contract arent they? I have often been adviced to let a lawyer or someone experty read your contract from beginning to end. This should be acceptable by the employing Party if not it is a red flag is it not?

Richard U

3:19 PM

@RaoulMensink contracts are written in legalese

Stack Exchange

4:11 PM

1

Q: Can we reinvigorate the be Be Nice Policy?

Nearly 2 years ago we had a big push to make sure that our site responses were professional and pleasant. Lately I have noticed a greater incidence of answers and comments that are definitely not pleasant, and border on rude. More and more this seems to be common place and accepted with even som...

Chad

4:53 PM

@enderland - What would you think about a suggestion to change from be nice, to be helpful?

I think being helpful requires a certian amount of decorum and lack of snark. That should follow to comments as well if a comment is not helpful then it does not need to be there.

Masked Man

@Chad With all due respect, often calling an idiot an idiot is more helpful than pampering their idiocy.

Chad

And Idiot will never believe he is the idiot anyway. But if you explain why their problem is actually their problem not a problem with someone else that may be helpful.

Christopher Estep

Being a dick is never warranted. Almost anything can be said without snark.

6

Chad

It often takes more thought to say it too leading to better explanations

Masked Man

Yeah, but the kind of sugarcoating that is being asked for in the name of the so-called policy is equally annoying. If you are offended by almost anything, you shouldn't be posting questions to random strangers on the internet in the first place.

enderland

5:04 PM

I think most problems with this whole subject occur when the post vs asker line becomes blurred, this can be on the part of people posting comments/answers OR receiving them

Masked Man

Why is giving one's honest opinion frankly considered "being a dick"? It never ceases to amaze me the extent to which people go censoring just to make some immature adults feel "comfortable".

enderland

@MaskedMan I think the biggest thing is that people frame "am I being a dick?" through their lens, not including the possibility for others to view it differently

"I wouldn't be offended/bothered by this, so you shouldn't be either!" etc

Masked Man

If people calling you an idiot hurts you so much, then stop being an idiot, don't shoot the messenger. :-)

Chad

@enderland Exactly. And if a comment is not helpful then it doesnt belong

Christopher Estep

so you're suggesting that calling someone an idiot wouldn't qualify as "being a dick"?

enderland

5:08 PM

helpfullness is also less clear, too, is telling someone "you are an idiot" helpful? it might be to some, might not be to others

Chad

Telling someone they are an idiot or even right is never helpful unless it is explained why

Masked Man

@ChristopherEstep Would calling Roger Federer a tennis player qualify as "being a dick" in your opinion?

Who gets to decide if a comment is helpful or offensive? Something that you don't consider offensive may be offensive to me. Hey, I could consider you greeting me with "Good morning" to be offensive because I am in a different timezone.

Where do you draw the line?

enderland

@MaskedMan if you figure out a clear way, let me know, moderating here is basically all about figuring that line out hah

Masked Man

My point here is don't make unnecessary rules which are hard to interpret and cause more controversy.

Christopher Estep

my god, I hate trolls.

Masked Man

5:11 PM

and I hate people who start name-calling when their belief system is shaken.

enderland

Chad

It may be fuzzier and im willing to give the benefit of the doubt if it appears semi helpful. But most problem comments are not helpful they are downvotes in text form

Christopher Estep

wtf are you even talking about? belief system? when did civility become a belief system?

Masked Man

When you introduce controversial rules, you end up with incidents like these:

-9

Q: What right do mods have in reconstructing my answers and comments?

In my answer on question - How to politely decline a handshake due to religious reasons? - I have an answer that had an entire paragraph chopped out of it. Not only that but the mods keep deleting my comments in response to other comments BUT KEEP THE ORIGINAL COMMENTS. Here is the deleted ...

discussion moderation

@ChristopherEstep That civility is just what you believe to be so. Not everyone necessarily agrees with it. In Israel, for example, you could call your boss an idiot without worrying about losing your job. You should really open your mind a little more.

Your version of civility is not the only one that exists in this world, so yes, it is just a belief system in the bigger picture.

enderland

yeah.. everyone has their own version of civility and respectfulness

Masked Man

5:16 PM

In a worldwide community like this, introducing arbitrary rules to shoot down anyone who doesn't agree with the majority will just create more controversy and alienate the minority, which rather ironically, goes against the "Be Nice" policy that started the whole thing.

enderland

in an ideal world, people would always separate their posts from their emotions, and this issue wouldn't really matter, but nearly everyone cannot do this 100%

Masked Man

Just to be clear on this, I don't encourage people to abuse everyone. I am just pointing out a few problems that could arise from creating arbitrary rules that are hard to interpret.

Chad

Be nice would still be inplace

I am suggesting that we add a criteria that posts also attempt to be helpful.

Masked Man

I understand your intent, and I don't disagree with it. My only point here is enforcing the rule will be hard. People could argue until the end of time how their post was helpful, even if their wording was somewhat ... uhm, impolite. In some cases, it could be blatantly obvious that the poster is just abusing, but in borderline cases, it is hard to judge

Chad

Thats why we have mods... :p

enderland

5:22 PM

lol

Masked Man

Then it comes down to moderators to do what some people would perceive as beating up the unhelpful people with a big stick.

Chad

@MaskedMan And that is the behavior I want to encourage :p

Masked Man

especially when religion and sexual discrimination topics are involved, things get heated up pretty soon.

because those are serious business.

enderland

@MaskedMan at least no one has strong opinions on those. errrhm.. :(

Chad

A comment of I disagree with you because X is not helpful. That is a text form of a downvote.

enderland

5:26 PM

@Chad I'm not sure I agree with this entirely, comments pointing out flaws/issues with an answer are useful

it in some sense is suggesting an improvement

clearly there are better and worse ways to do this, though

Chad

I guess it comes down to discretion then.

sometimes I agree they are helpful

but more often they are just I dont like your answer and offer nothing more than that

0

Q: Can we make the policy "Be Helpful"

From the dawn of this site we have struggled with problems conflict arising from different viewpoints and comment discussions that often digress into little more than ad hominem attacks. Most of these arise from well meaning people wanting to contribute butting heads about the way that should be...

discussion site-policy

I posted it on meta for discussion. if the site hates it so be it

Stack Exchange

1

Q: Can we improve the text of the "real questions have answers" close reason?

One of our close reasons currently reads as follows (based on this meta post): Real questions have answers. Rather than explaining why your situation is terrible, or why your boss/coworker makes you unhappy, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, click here. I ...

discussion close-reasons

enderland

@Chad I think this is kind of exactly what you are lamenting, if people do disagree with that policy it is not necessarily "hate"

Chad

No I shall take any objection personally :p

Richard U

unless it's from me

Chad

5:43 PM

I do not think that hate is a horrible word or emotion. Irrational hate is a problem, and inablity to deal with the hate constructively is a problem.

I would rather it be hated than people be meh about it

Richard U

Ah, you've got plenty of it from me. I find you amusing though. I think you take yourself far too seriously. Don't worry, plenty of people will hate you regardless of what you do, so it's hardly a badge of honor.

enderland

imo @chad the best "policy" is basically, "is the comment/content about the poster? or the post?" is the only real way to evaluate the helpfulness

Chad

Is the comment an attempt to help improve

enderland

comments about the poster will almost always get deleted by us (assuming they get flagged)

@Chad that's trickier, but at least the "ad hominem" side of things is more straightforward

Chad

What I would like is to nip those in the bud before they digress to ad hominim

Richard U

5:52 PM

@chad, you are trying to make the perfect to be the enemy of the good. What you are proposing will cause more headaches than anything else.

Some best advice can be delivered in ways that are a bit harsh. "Look, you need to get off your arse, put down that Xbox controller and pound the pavement, eat rice and beans and beans and rice until you've dug yourself out of this hole you've managed to create for yourself. You'll get no more help or sympathy from me until you do.

Chad

@RichardU Quite frankly I am trying to make it easier for the mods to purge comments from the problem commentators. I also want to change the tone so that it is no longer acceptable to post an answer that is openly contemptuous of the question.

Richard U

That could be helpful because it could be EXACTLY what a person needs to hear

@Chad Careful you don't get trapped in your own snare

Chad

I dont mind when my comments get purged. I have never complained about that.

@RichardU That is fine as long as you can explain why they need to do that

And most of the time if you start with that line no one bothers to read the rest. Where if you start off as a decent person then explain the problem then say so what you need to do is get off your dead butt aqnd on to your dieing feet and do some work...

That they will listen too because you have already shown them you are not just a dick you are a richard :)

Sorry I know you have hear that about 10 billion times

Aaron Hall

6:25 PM

Comments want purging.

Richard U

@chad, FWIW, I'm one of the ones who needs an occasional kick in the backside, but I try to judge what others need.

Aaron Hall

Some people are so negative that they occassionally provoke downvote sprees. Don't be that guy.

Richard U

@AaronHall I've already got at least one follower who downvotes practically everything I post.

Chad

@RichardU Is there a reason they do that?

Aaron Hall

Verbal Judo guy: "If it feels good to say, it's no good."

Richard U

6:35 PM

@chad I speak my mind. IMO, anyone who dies is going to attack enemies "A man about to tell the truth should keep one foot in the stirrup"-Mongolian proverb

Aaron Hall

If it feels good to type, you're probably stroking your own ego at the expense of someone else.

5

Chad

6:50 PM

@RichardU You can speak your mind and be respectful at the same time

Richard U

@Chad, if you cannot say what you mean, you cannot mean what you say.

Chad

One of the hardest things for me to learn growing up was that showing disrepect was actually a sign of weakness. Those that appear strong and assertive are most often those who treat everyone with respect even if you may think they may not deserve it

3

So if you constantly put out an aura of disrespect it is you that looks bad.

Anything you can say worth saying can be said more effectively with tact.

Richard U

@Chad. Tact is wasted on some people. Myself included. I'd rather have a harsh boss than a tactful one. I want an honest appraisal of my performance rather than a tactful explanation which will lead me right to a PIP.

Chad

You can be tactful and honest

Richard U

@Chad How would you tell an awful employee he needs to cut the crap and get to work or he'll be out.

Chad

7:03 PM

@RichardU I think you have great skills and have put out some great work, but you spend to much time surfing Redit and SE. While you are here I expect that you will spend your time working. If you continue to appear to be wasting time the next conversation will include HR and I do not want that. It is never pleasant having to fire someone.

Aaron Hall

:)

Time ~~wounds all heels~~ heals all wounds.

Chad

Actually I am kinda impressed with the answer provided...

Aaron Hall

I haven't read.

Chad

I assumed I was going to lose some rep but I actually upvoted one

and none deserved a downvote...

Richard U

@Chad Not much different than I would have phrased it.

Chad

7:11 PM

@RichardU So I am going to be blunt because you said you prefer that... Why do your answers not reflect that?

And that is probably unfair. Why do your answers to questions where you feel the OP is in the wrong not reflect that

Richard U

@Chad, I try to phrase my answers towards what the poster need to hear, not what they want to hear. If the OP is clearly in in the wrong, like that one who screwed a P.Eng and then wanted help on how to screw him again, got the unvarnished truth. Someone who is a bit lost or naïve, I go gentle on.

Christopher Estep

I think there's a 3rd option: What they poster needs to hear, in a way they may actually listen.

Chad

The problem I find is that when someone comes at me with "Hey you screwup!" first all i here is you saying "I am a jerk and just want to bust your balls"

Lilienthal

1

Q: Is it inappropriate to ask for a week off from a summer internship to volunteer?

I'll be starting college next year and am planning to do an internship over the summer. Every year I volunteer at a week-long summer camp for children who have or have had cancer. Would it be inappropriate to ask for that week off during a summer internship? Is it unlikely for a summer intern t...

internship volunteering

Chad

So even if what you say is right I just want to fight you on it, or ignore what you say all together. And if I see you say that to someone else while I am looking for a solution to my similar problem I just ignore your answer all together.

Lilienthal

7:24 PM

I've edited this somewhat but I'm still unhappy with the phrasing of the title. Anyone with a better suggestion, feel free to edit.

It's on 4 close votes for some unfathomable reason so hopefully it's sufficiently on-topic now.

Chad

I think its fine

The problem is the question will vary greatly by location and company. Some companies wont care some will

Christopher Estep

7:47 PM

I've noticed that we've exchanged "should I" for "is it appropriate" or "is it common" to avoid opinion questions. :)

in many cases, not necessarily this one

enderland

8:11 PM

@Chad being a moderator is really good for that practice...

@Lilienthal it probably could be "how to ask for a week off?" and would be better

hrm, I guess I've got two answers on HNQ now? lol

Lilienthal

8:41 PM

@enderland Potentially. The main focus of the question is whether it's okay to ask "as a lowly intern" but I suppose answers should incorporate scripts or suggested phrasings for raising it.

-2

Q: Internship - forced use of own notebook as work tool

Someone I know was convinced to use it's own notebook as work tool, by the "employer", or otherwise would not get the internship necessary to get the diploma. Appears to have been a bluff by the "employer's" part to extract more value from the said intern, noticing he was desperate for money and...

internship

Huh, I was almost certain the OP was Indian here but it turns out he's Brazilian instead.

Christopher Estep

I think being an intern is a valid variable. We senior folks can get away with a lot more so it makes it a different question.

enderland

@ChristopherEstep I actually think it's probably easier to take an unpaid week as an intern vs fulltime

particularly if you are salaried fulltime

In the future you should run posts like this past an actual human being who speaks English instead of a machine translation. The question itself seems to be focused more on venting about a situation that didn't even happen to you so I'm voting to close as unclear. "How to prevent X?" could be on-topic but there's not much more to say than "don't accept an offer whose conditions you disagree with". — Lilienthal 11 hours ago

@Lilienthal that's a little harsh to someone probably as a non-native English speaker

2

Christopher Estep

True, a week is a bit rough. I can take a day here and there without a problem but a week would cause wailing and gnashing :)

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