The Water Cooler

12:48 AM

eh, @jmac - got any examples of questions that attracted lots of bad answers from folks who weren't previously members of the site? Trying to come up with some criteria for a possible auto-protect, and coming up empty.

Shog9

1:23 AM

nevermind. Think about these:

67

Q: Is it ethical to write answers to work-relevant Stack Exchange questions on the clock?

First off, this is intended to be an extension to the question "Is it ethical to read programming books on the clock?". I do realize the irony of asking this on Stack Exchange itself, but hey, I'm not on the clock right now. I am a programmer who, like many of my colleages, oftentimes gets stuck...

22

Q: Cheating in a phone interview

I'm going to interview someone on the phone, I have been involved in a few in-person interviews before but this is my first phone interview so I have some concerns about the process. It's a technical interview for a software developer position. What if the interviewee had some notes with him dur...

professionalism interviewing software-industry hiring-process phone

workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/18712/…

all got 5 or more answers within 24 hours that would've been blocked by Protected status

This one hit 4: workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/18755/…

if we kicked on Protected status automatically after the 4th answer, I wonder how much collateral damage it would cause...

jmac

@Shog9 This question had 5 new users posting their first answer, this one had 5. Post IDs for the first: 6846,7623,8626,8628,8643, and the second: 3524,3508,3523,3543,3615

(sorry, didn't record the score in my spread sheet)

@Shog9 Pretty sure that new users with bad answers is far less related to the number of answers than it is to the appearance on the hot list, the thing is that the number of answers contributes greatly to the position on the hot list which is why you’ll see a correlation

Shog9

@jmac I'm counting answers from no-rep users

jmac

@Shog9 I think I have a data.se query that can be modified to suit the need

Shog9

@jmac hard to get an accurate count out of SEDE, unless you've figured out a way to factor out the association bonus there

jmac

@Shog9 This query will give you the timing and score of each answer on a question. I could add on a rep for the user at the end, but that would be current rep (rather than rep at the time). However, since most users don't stick around, it may be a good quick glance tool

I thought protection protected against people with just the association bonus too, no?

Shog9

1:33 AM

@jmac It does, hence the necessity of including them in the query

I have a query already - what I don't have is a good feeling for whether or not the questions it turns up should be protected.

There's a huge opportunity for collateral damage there

on SO, it starts turning up questions related to problems in recently-released software: not really pile-on answers, more lots of folks trying to figure out a solution to a brand-new problem.

jmac

Is there a way to add a 'soft protect' that tosses things in to the 'First Posts' review queue for vetting prior to being posted?

or rather, would it perhaps be advantageous to...

Shog9

@jmac the whole point is to kick in when no one's around to watch - if someone with protect privs is on the site, they can just protect it if it needs it.

oh, nevermind, I misread that

a soft protect is what you get by default

jmac

@Shog9 Yeah, but I mean that the answers can still be posted, they just don't show up if nobody is around to vet them. It'd prevent the damage of not having people be able to contribute, while also preventing the damage from bad answers

Shog9

There's no "limbo" for answers.

that would be really weird.

jmac

Yet a limbo may solve the collateral damage problem (though causing a huge shift in how the site is being used which SE may not like)

I think you're spot on that we need to prevent good answers from being blocked by improper protection, but at the same time we do need some way to prevent the damage from a flood of mediocre answers that collect sympathy upvotes.

Shog9

1:38 AM

one thing I'm finding so far is that floods are fairly rare.

jmac

I think that, as much as you dislike it, putting a barrier to quickly posting an answer will weed out a large portion of the poor answers. Either by setting up a 'click-through' scheme where the answer box is not readily accessible when coming through a hot question link.

Shog9

I'd be much more comfortable straight-up blocking floods.

jmac

82 questions with over 10 answers.

14 with over 15.

Shog9

out of 3K

jmac

If we included deleted questions, those numbers will be higher.

Yeah, but the correlation with hot list questions seems to be pretty apparent.

Shog9

1:40 AM

@jmac by 1

jmac

I meant deleted answers

sorry.

Normally floods don't happen. It is only when an external force (reddit, hot questions list) focus attention on a question that they happen

Shog9

@jmac I know you don't like hearing it, but... This "hot" thing is really just the tip of the iceberg. Turn it off and you see the rest. In a year, you'll be focused on other problems. I like solutions that attack problems and not correlating factors.

jmac

@Shog9 And I know you don't like hearing it, but I think that as the size of the network increases, the impact of hot questions on smaller sites will just increase because there will be more eyes. Maybe it won't be TWP, but it will be somewhere.

So if the goal is just, "How do we prevent bad answers?" I think auto-protecting after 4 answers will cause more harm than good, because there are very few questions that this would benefit, and many many more that it could harm from passers-by with a good answer and no way to share it.

A query that shows answer # with question score (including deleted answers) may give a lot of insight in to where answer quality drops off the cliff.

Shog9

@jmac meh; as the network grows, trying to cram all interests into a short list is going to become increasingly impractical anyway.

Have you seen the mobile feed?

That's probably the future.

jmac

Never used it on mobile.

I mean, any mobile app.

I don't have iOS7, so I just use safari

How about making cleanup easier, rather than trying to restrict answers in the first place?

part of the issue is that people are rewarded for poor answers because of number of eyes

Shog9

1:47 AM

Screenshots here: blog.stackoverflow.com/2014/01/…

Again, entertainment: I'm waiting in the checkout line, I grab my phone, open the app, and there's a semi-endless list of stuff relevant to my interests - I can read as long as I have time.

jmac

rather than protecting the questions from answers, how about protecting answers from upvotes from people under a certain privilege?

Shog9

@jmac that's all back to breaking the basic mechanics of the system. You might as well just rely on auto- Community Wiki.

Long ago, we tried using CW as a mechanism for rep-denial for questions/answers we didn't like on SO.

It... ended badly.

For everyone.

jmac

@Shog9 Okay, how about creating less stringent deletion criteria for them then?

For instance, making deletion criteria for trusted users related to the number and score of answers on the question.

Shog9

@jmac it already is

for questions

for answers, it's just related to the score of the answer

<0 and you can delete. 3 votes. that's all it takes.

jmac

Currently I can delete anything with a score of -1 or worse. What if we changed it so trusted users could delete answers with a score related to # of answers, top answer score, median answer score, etc.

Shog9

1:51 AM

@jmac at that point, you're basically stuck setting a threshold so high to prevent abuse that it only matters for a tiny handful of questions.

jmac

Take this question. Are any of the bottom half a dozen answers worth keeping?

Shog9

@jmac I... honestly don't like the question.

jmac

I don't much either to be honest.

Shog9

I don't say that to sidetrack the question; I just mean that I have a hard time judging the usefulness of answers when I think the question itself is crap.

jmac

This is another example of that self-help group for commiserating issue.

Shog9

1:52 AM

"Ask a stupid question..." as the old adage sez

ya

Advice column

An advice column is a column in a magazine or newspaper written by an advice columnist (colloquially known in British English as an agony aunt, or agony uncle if the columnist is a male). The image presented was originally of an older woman dispensing comforting advice and maternal wisdom, hence the name "aunt". An advice columnist can also be someone who gives advice to people who send in problems to the newspaper. Sometimes the author is in fact a composite or a team: Marjorie Proops's name appeared (with photo) long after she retired. The nominal writer may be a pseudonym, or in effec...

jmac

The Japanese have a great word for that: 愚痴 which means "foolish foolish" but combined means 'aimless whinging'

Shog9

It's the sort of question I really hated to see on Stack Overflow back in the day - you knew right away who was gonna answer, roughly what they were gonna say, and that their trite advice would be followed by dozens of others trotting out their own pet philosophies.

jmac

So I see three solutions to this:
1) Make it harder to post lots of answers on the assumption they are bad
2) Make it easier to clean up bad answers when there are a lot
3) Reduce the incentive to post bad-answers (through CW or gating the ability to answer when visiting through a link)

jmort253

You can't put lipstick on a pig... one thing I've noticed is when there are a lot of flags on answers, it's generally the question that's the problem...

jmac

@jmort253 Yeah. Sometimes a good answer can save a mediocre question, and sometimes the answer just makes a mess of things (as mine did in that case)

(and why in God's name did 92 people favorite that question? I mean, why? WHY?! When will that question ever be something you want to refer to in the future!)

If we make it harder to post lots of answers, we should gather data on answer number and answer quality (score is a fine proxy I guess, you can kind of rank the various answers on high-volume questions even if the absolute score is high).

jmort253

1:58 AM

@jmac Based on that, is it simply easier for the community to close a question that's getting bad answers?

jmac

If we want to make it easier to clean up bad answers, then it may be a very insignificant volume because these floods are rare. And I don't think that analysis is even worthwhile.

jmort253

It takes 5 people to close a question, even if it's scored 200+ points.

jmac

@jmort253 If the question is good, it can still get a lot of bad answers...

Shog9

not what you asked for, just something I'm working with at the moment:

Frequency chart - # of questions with # of answers for the past 90 days on TWP

jmac

What about criteria to collapse answers scored under X when there are over Y answers, like comments?

Shog9

2:00 AM

@jmac well, that effectively happens - you only get the top 30 by default.

jmac

@Shog9 Wow. I didn't realize so many of our questions were over 5 answers. Yuck.

@Shog9 30 is giant. I never want to see a question with 30 answers. To be honest, in 98% of cases I would think it could be done in 5. This isn't to say we should restrict number of answers to 5, just that as the number of answers increases, the signal to noise ratio gets exponentially worse

Shog9

For comparison, Stack Overflow, same time period:

jmac

Interesting. Looks like SO has a lot more single-answer questions. Which is good. This is likely very related to subjectivity and subject matter

jmort253

@Shog9 I was wondering, is there another "soft site" we can compare to? Stack Overflow and WP are like comparing apples to oranges.

I bet Programmers looks more like WP than SO, for example.

Shog9

@jmac nevertheless, 4 questions with 79 answers did get that 79th answer within the past 90 days.

jmort253

2:03 AM

I'm thinking Skeptics looks like SO too, but that's just a guess....

Shog9

Good ol' Progse:

jmac

wow, that looks like our fraternal twin.

Shog9

you & @gnat, separated at birth

jmac

@Shog9 To toss another idea out there. I know we have a 'late answers' queue, but what if we broadened the criteria (and changed the name of the queue) to include answers on questions with over X answers?

Shog9

@jmac that ain't crazy

jmac

2:06 AM

What if, and this is another nutty idea, these reviews would allow assigning a downvote without reputation cost to improve the chance of poor answers getting downvotes

Across the entire SE network, there aren't enough downvotes, which is really compounded on some of these high-answer questions (because people just upvote everything they agree with, regardless of if it actually adds any value to the Q&A)

Shog9

that is a bit more crazy

reading your analysis makes me feel that would be better for downvotes on answers to become free as well — gnat yesterday

as much as I would like to see more down-votes, I think it'd be a tough sell

jmort253

How does it work now in the late answers queue. Is the "Recommend deletion" button tied to the score of the post?

Shog9

@jmort253 there's no recommend delete in the late answers queue

that's Low Quality

jmort253

gotcha

Shog9

First Posts / Late Answers are pretty much straight-up "here is a post and all the fixin's - do stuff with it"

what's that thing where you draw a line indicating the cumulative % value at each data point?

Pareto?

jmort253

2:12 AM

frequency distribution?

jmac

@Shog9 Pareto is the 80:20 rule, but is often used to reference the cumulative type charts (the long-tail esque distribution)

@Shog9 The reason I say downvotes from those reviews should be free is that I think that a lot of the time, the proper response to a bad answer is a downvote. If someone posts a 'me too' answer, the only other alternative is to flag it 'not an answer' which we had quite a bit of flak about from Yannis last time because of the amount of NAA flags

The downvote reason is 'this answer is not useful' which it won't be if it just repeats already given information with no additional value.

jmort253

Ideally we have moderators who can delete the really bad stuff whether it's upvoted or not, but I support the idea that most actions on the site should be distributed across the community members.

What do you think of making answers eligible for deletion if a post notice is first applied to them?

Just a thought.

jmac

@jmort253 I am a fan of moderator action in those 'no doubt' cases, but if something is even partially borderline, I would like it to be handled by the community first (with support from the mod if requested)

@jmort253 So you mean when you put a post notice like in this question, trusted users could vote to delete regardless of score?

jmort253

@jmac except on answers.

Shog9

12

Q: Add a review queue for posts with a "citation needed" notice

We're using the "Citation Needed" notices a lot since they were introduced, but there is no really efficient workflow for removing them later. We rely pretty much on the community to flag posts that either addressed the issue and should have the notice removed, or that didn't address the issue an...

feature-request post-notice

jmort253

2:18 AM

Since those are less accessible to delete voters.

jmac

I see that as a variation on flagging questions.

Shog9

@jmort253 that's kinda weird, but it could work - it'd effectively be the "answer limbo" equivalent to question closing.

Needs some thought. Throw it up on MSO.

jmort253

@Shog9 I believe sites like Workplace could be helped by that.

jmac

But only moderators can add post notices, right?

Shog9

Skeptics, Hermeneutics...

jmort253

2:20 AM

I went through and removed a bunch of old answers where I previously added post notices.

jmac

To me that seems like it will just increase moderator burden.

jmort253

they were over a year old.

@jmac Oftentimes I put a post notice on posts where they're borderline

jmac

What about adding an item to the flag menu that allows users to flag something for a post notice?

If enough members flag with the same post notice, it gets added immediately

jmort253

for instance, there's an explanation, but it's iffy as to whether it satisfy's the back it up rule

jmac

This entire discussion makes me think that the core issue is that there is no equivalent of [On Hold] for answers. So we have to do post notices, or NAA flagging, or downvoting followed by community deletion.

jmort253

2:22 AM

Sometimes I come across posts that are flagged that aren't bad enough for me to delete, but they can definitely be improved.

jmac

@jmort253 I see so many answers like that here. I am getting better about downvoting, but it would be nice to have some sort of way to consolidate eyes on bad answers, have them judged by the community in a queue, and remove those that need removal.

jmort253

@jmac And with the current system, most actions involving removing of answers requires a diamond.

Well, then maybe a good takeaway is to unearth that Skeptics Meta post and vet the idea here first....

jmac

For instance, having the ability to vote on post notices in the flagging menu. Posts that get enough flags for a notice are given that notice. Posts with a notice are tossed in to the 'Low Quality' queue

jmort253

and then get some community ideas/consensus and then go from there.

jmac

To tie this in with the high-answer issue, questions with a large amount of answers could have following answers automatically be tossed in the 'late answers' review queue, where one of the options could be to flag with a post notice.

I like this system more and more. It allows trimming of answers which as you pointed out is a ♦ action primarily right now.

jmort253

2:26 AM

@jmac I do feel like taking it slow would be best.

Shog9

Since I don't know where this is linked to...

jmac

(now I get what @Shog is on about with this whole "I like solutions that attack problems and not correlating factors." thing)

Shog9

Reminder: All users can view currently noticed posts

3

It ain't exactly a /review queue, but... It's something.

jmac

That's just as good as a review queue.

(well, mostly)

Checking meta to see if there's ever been a request to allow high-rep users to add post notices.

jmort253

@Shog9 It would be awesome if that were a search filter

annotated:1 isanswer:1

I mean, that's still awesome

I can see us making use of that big time.

jmac

2:29 AM

@jmort253 You can with hasnotice:1 apparently:

8

A: Is it possible to search for posts with a post notice?

Using hasnotice:1 will produce any questions which currently have a lock or bounty notice attached to them as well as any answers which have any of the moderator post notices added to them.

jmort253

@jmac excellent!

jmac

And here we are:

11

Q: Allow high-reputation users (10k, 15k, or 20k) to add post notices

Post notices are a good way for moderators to help encourage better content. However, since these notices do not directly alter the state of a question or answer, can we allow experienced users to add post notices? This can further encourage high-quality content, and is a feature that is not li...

feature-request moderator-abilities post-notice

Shog9

Use locked:0 with that

workplace.stackexchange.com/search?q=hasnotice%3A1+locked%3A0

This was actually why those operators were added: so folks could review noticed posts on occasion.

I wonder why we never documented that

jmac

You need a documentation specialist!

Shog9

Heh... Now that I think about it, that was added for OnStartups

jmort253

2:31 AM

I bet we could find someone to write a chat bot that could dump that link in here once per week.

Shog9

A site that had... some similar problems

jmac

I think we're a wee bit better at community moderation than they are, no?

Shog9

@jmac I like the "add it as you remember it" model: workplace.stackexchange.com/help/searching

jmac

So does this seem decent @Shog and @jmort?
1) Toss new answers to high-answer questions in to the 'Late Answers' queue
2) Allow high-rep users to flag for post notices through that queue (and in general)
3) Add answers with those notices to the 'Low-Quality' queue where the notice can be removed, or the post can be deleted (regardless of score)

@Shog9 Fancy, you just added that? It's like magic.

jmort253

#1 feels awkward... I'm not against the idea..... just, that might change the meaning of a late answer.

#3 would really help make those posts more visible.

Shog9

2:38 AM

@jmac not sure about some parts of that... I'm gonna recommend you post a clear problem statement on meta and then add that as an answer. Could use some chewin'

jmac

@jmort253 The queue name would have to be changed from 'Late Answers' to 'Answer Review' or something. I don't think anyone is attached to the 'Late Answer' name

jmort253

But I wonder how the community would take that.... we're pretty divided on how answers should be handled.

Shog9

jmac

@Shog9 As always, I'm sure I will be able to convince you that I'm right in the end.

Shog9

@jmac As usual, I'm sure we'll implement something completely different in 6-8 months and then mark it [status-completed] anyway

jmort253

2:39 AM

#2 could help.... but I don't know what the potential side effects of that would be.

jmac

@Shog9 I wouldn't have it any other way!

@jmort253 The potential side effects would be that we would get more meta posts across the network asking to justify post notices. But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It may also cause slight issues with overzealous users who really really really have a strict view of what's okay.

jmort253

@jmac I'd recommend discussing in our meta first, to polish some of the ideas first, then taking it to MSO, but that's just a suggestion. There are definitely other sites that would benefit as well.

@jmac I do feel it's good to start slow. If post notices can only be added by moderators, that still keeps some pretty heavy checks and balances on answers and would move us forward a bit more conservatively...

jmac

@jmort253 I can give that a shot too. I think that the hard part is creating the problem statement in the first place.

jmort253

it's always easier to give more privileges slowly than to give a lot and then have to take them away.

Shog9

@jmac that's always the hard part. Which is why so many people skip it. And then...

77

Q: A Proposal for More Constructive Downvoting on Meta: Express Disagreement by Answering the Question

Downvoting legitimate questions on Meta because one disagrees with the question's premise has become a bit of a problem. Question bans on users asking legitimate questions are a real possibility. Discussion can be suppressed. Heavily downvoted questions fall off the front page, and no longer...

discussion

jmac

2:43 AM

@jmort253 I'm 99% sure I understand your caution and the reason behind it. I am just worried about moderation burden, which is really your problem, the issue is that moderator action is less transparent and comes with it different expectations from different users about involvement

@Shog9 I am usually pretty good about my problem statements. I gather data and post things from my perspective. Then someone else comes around and blows my concept out of the water because I was wearing blinders.

jmort253

@jmac But arguably, adding a post notice, and opening up the deletion activity to the community, is a lighter action than having to choose between dropping the sledge hammer or just leaving a comment.

jmac

A problem to me is rarely a problem for everyone

@jmort253 The idea behind the queue isn't to decide whether to flag it or not, it would give the option to flag it, but also the option to comment (or edit, or whatever). Right now for questions we have: comment, downvote, answer, close, flag. For answers we have: comment, downvote, flag. I want to add 'post notice' to those choices

If flags for adding post notices were invisible (unlike close votes where you see close (3) after it), like spam flags, then it would prevent a lot of abuse I think.

jmort253

@jmac It's possible. I'm also thinking of maybe creating a userscript that adds "post notice" to answers and then automatically flags a mod, and then a script to add that "hasnotice" search to the "review" page.

jmac

@jmort253 I am envious of your technical aptitude.

jmort253

:)

@Shog9, while we still have your attention, any news from Jin on the design? I've been fighting the urge to bother him as I know he and Stéphane are working hard.

Shog9

2:54 AM

@jmort253 for this site?

jmort253

yep

Shog9

Waiting on a dev to make it all live.

Was discussed in here earlier, I believe

jmort253

Right on. :)

Shog9

so yeah, @jmac: enjoy those "trusted user" privs while you got 'em

jmort253

yesterday, by Jin

ah hmm change of plans. one of our core dev is out today. so the launch may be pushed back couple of days. which gives me more time to bug check

jmac

2:56 AM

@Shog9 10k gives me the ability to do just about anything I want to. I think.

Oh dear, no, it doesn't. I have to rack up another 10k to be able to delete stuff easily. Time to start a meta post to delete everything with -1 score before things change.

Shog9

Your votes don't expire - get 'em in while you got 'em

This is actually an excellent time to do a bit of house-cleaning...

jmac

One cleanup is in progress, but this will stop dead after leaving beta. Maybe should shoot for some low-hanging fruit first.

11

Q: Cleaning Up Bad Answers on Popular Questions

Please vote on this week's question, details below. There is still one answer from last week that needs one more delete vote Back in May 2012, Rarity asked about how we should deal with bad or "me too" answers: Do we need a policy on bad/"me too" answers? More recently, bad deleted posts p...

discussion support featured deleted-questions

655 posts with -1 score or worse. Oh dear.

jmort253

Someone should probably make the announcement about privileges. I'm sure this will surprise some people.

I'm going to get dinner first. :)

jmac

Lunchtime.

Well then, it is food time world-over.

jmort253

absolutely :)

jmac

4:21 AM

@jmort253 Ran out of delete votes (used all 19). Could use your help!

0

Q: Graduation, Privileges, and Deletion

Graduation is coming. Deletion of -1 scored answers is going from a 4,000 reputation privilege to a 20,000 reputation privilege. Time for some easy cleanup. Please: Vote on the post Improve if you think it can be saved If it can't be improved: Vote to close (for questions) or vote to delete...

support faq-proposed

(and everyone else's. That means you @ender, @jim, @rhys, @cmw, etc.)

jmort253

@jmac I'll go through the queue as soon as I get my meta post out.

thanks!

jmort253

4:44 AM

0

Q: Prepare for graduation

As many of you know, Workplace SE is pending graduation as soon as the design passes it's final QA inspection. I wanted to take a moment to outline some of the changes that will occur so you know what to expect. New Design The most noticeable change, when it comes to graduation, will occur when...

discussion featured graduation announcement

Shog9

@jmort253 psst! We don't modify the footer anymore (it's auto-generated now) - also, the ads you get (at least initially) will be your own: you get a meta thread where y'all can create your own ads to promote... whatever.

jmort253

@Shog9 Good to know. Thank you. :)

@Shog9 But a link to the site would be in the footer of a site like Stack Overflow, correct?

Auto-generated or not, is it still correct to say we'd get more links from graduated sites?

Shog9

@jmort253 hmm... Maybe? I'm trying to figure out what category this site falls into

There's no "Business" section in the footer

jmort253

I think that's because all the Business sites are beta perhaps?

Shog9

yeah... I honestly have no clue what's going to happen with the footer here ;-)

jmort253

4:58 AM

Sorry, "Professional"

stackexchange.com/sites#professional-traffic

I'll leave that part blank then... surprises are nice.

Shog9

If you're lucky, you'll show up after Mathematica. If you're unlucky, you'll end up in "more" under RPG or something.

If we're all unlucky, a new header will pop into being and the layout will break everywhere.

SURPRISESES!

jmort253

More work for Jin and Stéphane.

jmort253

7:22 AM

0

Q: What must be in a contract when hiring an unpaid Intern in an LLC in the United States?

I am interested in hiring an unpaid intern in the United States. I have reviewed the outline from the Dept. of Labor, and I meet the criteria. I have an LLC, and I want to bring in a college student. We'll work on a portfolio site for the intern, so I won't be gaining any advantage of any kind. ...

intern

This feels more like a question for The Workplace. I'm not doing anything with it just yet, but I wanted to get some thoughts from the community about this. It's a long tail question, but it just doesn't feel right for a site for the self employed.

Thoughts?

Chase

Doesn't sound like freelancing at all. Definitely suitable for The Workplace.

jmort253

That's what I'm thinking...

Most of our questions aren't from employers though. They tend to be from employees or people looking for jobs.

7

Q: What should I look for when hiring a salesperson?

I have a software product that may have some appeal to a relatively small, vertical market. I am considering hiring a salesperson part-time (which can be in addition to the salesperson's other work provided that there are no conflicts of interest) to sell this product, customizations to the prod...

hiring-process interviewing software-industry

Chase

Employers are still part of the workforce, right? I've never seen anything against it.

jmort253

79

Q: How can I encourage a culture of punctuality in a software company?

As a new technical lead in a new company, what are some additional strategies to employ to change the culture of the development team so that people show up at the time that I've requested? TLDR: My team doesn't show up on time. I've tried to compel them and it isn't working. Background Data:...

software-industry company-culture

Absolutely....

gnat

7:50 AM

@Shog9 free DVs on answers is hardly a sell at all, I think it opens too wide a gate for abuse (tactical downvoting). And there's just no way to tell abusive DV from fair one. As much as I hate the pain of having -10-20 a day of voting down answers, I think it's not going to go away

jmac

@jmort253 Fully agreed. I think it would be a great answer, and would guess that one of our regulars (Joe, HLGEM, Beth?) could probably answer it.

jmort253

@jmac - Just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy

-

Do you consider it a legal question?

jmac

Why the heck would it be legal?

@jmort253 As I read it, it's asking, "What the heck do I have to do according to the regulations on unpaid interns in regards to the contract?"

That is not the same as, "Provide me with a legally binding contract for an unpaid intern" which would definitely be legal advice.

jmort253

Ok, like I said, just wanted to make sure I'm not "that guy" when it comes to migrating bad content to our site. :)

jmac

I would just edit the title first

Chase

8:03 AM

Just got a rejection for a position I never applied to... that's a first.

jmac

from "What must be in a contract when hiring an unpaid Intern in an LLC in the United States?" to "Is there a special contract format that must be followed when hiring an unpaid intern in the US?"

(that seems to be what is actually being asked, and asking "What needs to be in the contract?" is likely to get close votes as legal question due to the misconception that it's asking for contract clauses)

jmort253

1

Q: What must be in a contract when hiring an unpaid Intern in an LLC in the United States?

I am interested in hiring an unpaid intern in the United States. I have reviewed the outline from the Dept. of Labor, and I meet the criteria. I have an LLC, and I want to bring in a college student. We'll work on a portfolio site for the intern, so I won't be gaining any advantage of any kind. ...

untagged

Yeh, I definitely don't want it to get closed....

Which is why I'm playing 20 questions :D

jmac

The title and tags hath been verily edited.

RhysW

8:21 AM

@jmac hear ye hear ye, jmac the editor has editith thine tags

@jmac working on it!

jmac

8:39 AM

@RhysW Further proof Rhys is British. I bet he says 'ye olde' as well. And can recite the entire Canterbury Tales prologue by heart. "When that aprille with his shoures soote, the drote of march hath perced to the roote..."

RhysW

@jmac Never even heard of it!

jmac

@RhysW You've never heard of Chaucer, really?

Geoffrey Chaucer

Geoffrey Chaucer (; c. 1343 – 25 October 1400), known as the Father of English literature, is widely considered the greatest English poet of the Middle Ages and was the first poet to have been buried in Poet's Corner of Westminster Abbey. While he achieved fame during his lifetime as an author, philosopher, alchemist and astronomer, composing a scientific treatise on the astrolabe for his ten year-old son Lewis, Chaucer also maintained an active career in the civil service as a bureaucrat, courtier and diplomat. Among his many works, which include The Book of the Duchess, the House of ...

The Canterbury Tales

The Canterbury Tales (Middle English: tales of Caunterbury) is a collection of over 20 stories written in Middle English by Geoffrey Chaucer at the end of the 14th century, during the time of the Hundred Years' War. The tales (mostly written in verse, although some are in prose) are presented as part of a story-telling contest by a group of pilgrims as they travel together on a journey from Southwark to the shrine of Saint Thomas Becket at Canterbury Cathedral. The prize for this contest is a free meal at the Tabard Inn at Southwark on their return. After a long list of works written...

RhysW

@jmac yeah really

jmac

en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Canterbury_Tales/General_Prologue

Here bygynneth the Book of the Tales of Caunterbury

Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open yë
(So priketh hem Nature in hir corages);
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages

It's a rather ribald Middle English set of stories. I have no idea why I had to learn them to be honest.

RhysW

9:01 AM

Yeah me neither, not something that ever popped up that i remember anyway

enderland

11:14 AM

@jmort I asked a question about unpaid interns on a while ago. might be a DUP? I can't really check now

gnat

11:29 AM

4

Q: Unpaid Internship (USA) Employer Requirements

What are obligations/responsibilities a volunteer/non-profit organization desiring to have an unpaid internship position should consider? Note: this pdf from the department of labor discusses what seem to be the legal obligations behind having a non-paying internship for a for-profit company ...

internship benefits

except for LLC part, sounds like a full dupe to me

Hugo Rocha

12:29 PM

'morning

RhysW

1:59 PM

@HugoRocha hey hugo

enderland

2:28 PM

ugh VGA to monitors SUCK

why does this stupid laptop only have VGA output

like, seriously

I should snipe an extra docking station at work

so I can have HDMI or DVI output

jmac

3:26 PM

How the heck do you get things to be noticed on reddit anyway?

I don't understand the internet.

CMW

^^

enderland

3:53 PM

workplace.stackexchange.com/annotated-posts?tab=noticed

this is a great way to start finding things to downvote. hahah

Michael Grubey

Hey all....long time no see :)

enderland

workplace.stackexchange.com/search?q=score%3A-7..-5

@MichaelGrubey welcome :D

Jin

hi

Michael Grubey

Thank you. How you been?

RhysW

4:15 PM

@MichaelGrubey hey! havent seen you in a while

Michael Grubey

@RhysW Hey dude! Its hard to explain what's been happening...been a long windy road to get here aha

RhysW

no worries, welcome back, were graduating!

Michael Grubey

Are you being serious!! Awesome times, congratz all!

Is there a post about it somewhere?

RhysW

meta,

34

Q: Site design for Workplace.se

I’m Stéphane, the new designer at Stack Exchange. First, I wanted to announce that this site is now starting the process of moving out of beta to become a fully-graduated site! Congratulations! Graduation and Your Site Design Graduation comes with a few perks. I have already begun work on your ...

discussion featured design graduation

Jin

hi guys, we're working hard on last min css checks. we plan to launch the site today

7

Michael Grubey

4:20 PM

Awesome times...came back just in time to see all of it.

Jin

sorry we weren't able to launch it on tue

also, it's not just the main and meta sites that will get a facelift. also this chatroom theme, and the twitter page

Michael Grubey

There is a twitter page o_O

Jin

yes :)

it's an autofeed

Michael Grubey

Awesome...just checked it out. Looking good @Jin

Jin

@MichaelGrubey thanks, I think Stéphane did a great job.

Michael Grubey

4:24 PM

When you planning on releasing it today can I ask?

RhysW

@Jin now jin, are you sure :P

Michael Grubey

@RhysW ofc hes sure...he waited until I came back after many months just to launch the site....coincidence...I think not ;)

RhysW

It was a joke from tuesday :P

Jin

@RhysW ha i'm sure. or you can have all my bacon

RhysW

@Jin ...do you have any bacon? this isnt one of those double bluffs where you're actually a vegetarian is it?

Jin

4:35 PM

@RhysW me a vege? you just dishonored me and my ancestors!

i'm the most meat lovin guy there is

enderland

sweet

better get in those last minute delete votes :P

workplace.stackexchange.com/users/2322/enderland?tab=votes

Doing my part. Hahah!

RhysW

@Jin i take it back i take it back! Please graduate us! :P

enderland

I had a wonderful BLT last night. nom nom nom bacon

Jin

i used to make a whole pack of bacon, at midnight. it was glorious

I love my George Foreman grill.

enderland

crap I need 20k rep to be able to vote to delete answers? that's sad. better hurry up and get some more rep LOL

RhysW

4:46 PM

@enderland yeah thats what ive been saying!

imagine how far ive gotta trek

enderland

nah you'll be a mod

RhysW

i dunno about that

with the jmacs and the jmorts around here anyway!

enderland

well we'll need at least 3 mods right

sounds like you just named my votes

RhysW

i dont have anything to say to that other than thanks i guess! :P

you would still have my vote if you were willing to run for mod!

enderland

-4

Q: Answer length threshold too high?

According to this comment, this excellent answer: I'm not sure why you feel the need to compare. If you must, compare it to other jobs that you feel sure you could land. That's the only thing that is relevant anyway. If your title is to be "Director of Zerble", but the only other jobs y...

bug

ppoor guy is getting smacked down on meta

:\

CMW

5:01 PM

oooh :(

Chad

@MichaelShaw *This discrepancy and unpredictability causes a lot of angst between my department and other departments... I have the full support and backing of the senior management team and am empowered to employ whatever devices I feel appropriate to get this taken care of.

RhysW

@enderland i couldnt figure out what he was saying

Chad

@MichaelShaw It was a bad analogy and it severed cross purposes in this case.

enderland

hahaha

RhysW

if you consider who the regulars are, its only really jmac who cant see them :L

plus some of the newer regulars

Chad

5:13 PM

I cant see them

RhysW

if you are the one writing them you knew what they said

enderland

chat.stackexchange.com/messages/13882785/history

doe sthat work?

RhysW

for me, yes, for others, i wouldnt have thought so

Chad

No I suffer from sarcastic dimentia... I forget my witty remarks immedatly after posting them

2

RhysW

that explains a lot

Chad

5:16 PM

Im evil... you thought he got smacked down here... I just sent him to MSO to report an ajax issue :p

RhysW

@Chad sigh he has the proof though, so he should be alright

Chad

@RhysW Because they are so friendly and forgiving on MSO?

enderland

MSO is the most welcoming place on the internet, actually. I saw that on Reddit once

4

Shog9

5:28 PM

MSO is like a warm embrace

enderland

Jin

@Shog9 ...

Chad

Lol something must have gotten flagged

-1

Q: New comments are loaded, but not new answers?

As described here, only loading new comments but showing nothing about new answers Is confusing. Can i post a complete page save of the missing new answer note or does that contain sensitive session data? I do accept cookies.

bug

Michael Grubey

Just posted my first answer in months...missed that :P

Chad

5:45 PM

@MichaelGrubey which

Monica Cellio

@RhysW Jin cannot possibly be mistaken for a vegetarian, at least if his Twitter feed isn't some big hoax. :-)

Jim G.

@JimG. I agree. I think it would be a good fit for the Etiquette.SE site if that gets launched though. — starsplusplus 49 mins ago

^^^ Does anyone have any delete votes left for today?

Monica Cellio

@enderland you dilluted your BLT with L and T? (And, implied, bread?)

@Jin I used to do that, before I started keeping kosher. If it was worth messing up the kitchen with bacon grease, it was worth doing it up big, y'know? (This was before Foreman grills, when you had to use a skillet.)

Jin

@MonicaCellio I swear the Foreman grill was invented just to make bacon... it heats both sides so you don't have to flip them, and it drains the grease automagically.

Chad

@RhysW You do not have far to trek.. just to the end of Mod voting :)

Monica Cellio

5:57 PM

@Jin that "halve the cooking time" thing is handy, too. :-)

Jin

btw, @MonicaCellio instagram.com/p/jeq4-8NPPq instagram.com/p/jaB9x6NPCs

i printed out SE site's logo and site colors as art canvas, put up on our NYC HQ's wall.

it looks like a neat lil gallery

to @workplace.se folks, I already ordered one for you guys too

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