/dev/chat

Faheem Mitha

5:26 AM

@terdon The structure of the flow charts? I think it would depend on how things were set up.

TeX isn't really a programming language, so doing normal programming in it can quickly become a terrifying business.

But Lua might be better at automating things.

Faheem Mitha

7:01 AM

So it seems Debconf 2022 will be in Kochi, Kerala, India. Will this be the first Debconf held in India?

avazula

@FaheemMitha LuaTeX? That's a thing? Like for writing LaTeX documents about Lua code? o_o

Andras Deak

8:05 AM

@avazula (la)tex implemented in lua. Among other things it uses dynamic memory allocation which can help build complicated stuff

avazula

Oh, that's way more logical.

Now I wonder in which language it was originally implemented (I'm guessing C or C++, but why would they have switched to Lua for easing dynamic memory allocation then?)

C++, apparently

Stephen Kitt

@FaheemMitha yes, but there have been MiniDebConfs in India

Debian Conference

DebConf, the Debian developers conference is the yearly conference where developers of the Debian operating system meet to discuss further development of the system. Besides the scheduled workshops and talks, Debian developers take the opportunity to hack on the Debian system in a more informal setting. This has been institutionalised by introducing the DebCamp in the Oslo DebConf in 2003: a room is set aside and computing infrastructure provided. == Locations == Locations of past and future DebConf events: == Miniconf == These were one-day miniature conferences, originally held in association...

Andras Deak

8:30 AM

@avazula I suspect it was a different "them" who wrote luatex. Not Knuth et al. :)

And memory is just the only difference I know of, having switched to lualatex occasionally when I needed memory

Stephen Kitt

@avazula no, Pascal

Faheem Mitha

@avazula LuaTeX is TeX with a Lua backend.

@AndrasDeak No, it's not TeX implemented in Lua.

It's a Lua backend. Or putting it another way, it's TeX with an embedded Lua intepreter, which talks to the TeX part.

@StephenKitt Yes, I'm aware of that.

Stephen Kitt

@FaheemMitha ah so it was a rhetorical question

Faheem Mitha

@StephenKitt No, I meant I'm aware there have been MiniDebConfs in India.

@avazula @AndrasDeak You should read the Wikipedia LuaTeX page.

avazula

@StephenKitt I checked the TeX code, it has compounding C++ packages?

Faheem Mitha

8:44 AM

@avazula TeX was originally writted in Pascal. But I think there's an automated translation to C. Something like Web2C.

Though I'm not sure why that matters.

Andras Deak

@FaheemMitha huh. I can't say I understand the distinction. But I'll read about it, thanks. Sorry for the misinformation @avazula

Faheem Mitha

@AndrasDeak What distinction?

Do not that if you aren't familiar with TeX, it's probably not like anything else you've ever seen.

Andras Deak

The implementation of luatex :) But I also don't know how tex tex works. I'll read it.

Faheem Mitha

@AndrasDeak The implementation doesn't really matter. You can look at some examples. Assuming you're familiar with TeX in the first place.

Stephen Kitt

it’s worth reading dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/5689.315644 and dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/5948.315654 for context (if you have access)

Andras Deak

8:52 AM

I've been using latex for 10 years or so, but just as an end user

Faheem Mitha

@AndrasDeak Oh, ok. Then you have some idea.

Andras Deak

@StephenKitt something something sci-hub (I'll have to check)

Stephen Kitt

@AndrasDeak ha ha yes

Andras Deak

@AndrasDeak yeah, 11 years. Wrote my bachelor thesis in it.

@FaheemMitha so I guess the memory thing is just a side effect. Makes sense.

Faheem Mitha

@AndrasDeak Memory thing?

@AndrasDeak Why are you replying to yourself? :-)

Andras Deak

8:58 AM

@FaheemMitha I like hearing my voice :P

@FaheemMitha as you might see I'm on mobile. I'll explain when back in front of a keyboard.

Faheem Mitha

@AndrasDeak Mobiles are not great for typing.

Andras Deak

Yeah :( And mobile chat does that "double-post on edit" thing occasionally

Can't wait for touchscreens with configurable tactile feedback

avazula

@FaheemMitha ooh, that makes more sense. Thanks for letting me know :)

Andras Deak

Instead everyone's developing crappy foldable screens nobody asked for :P

Faheem Mitha

9:14 AM

@avazula I'd start by reading the Wikipedia articles, if you are interested. On TeX and LuaTeX.

There's also an article called "Howling at the Moon", which is about the development of LuaTeX.

tug.org/TUGboat/tb26-2/hagen.pdf

terdon

10:09 AM

@FaheemMitha Yeah, but presumably Kusalananda is looking for a tool that can read a shell script and plot out ts logic. Doing it in LaTeX will be the same as doing it in photoshop: you will need to design each box and each arrow connecting the box.

avazula

10:40 AM

@FaheemMitha Interesting. Thanks!

My questions were out of pure curiosity though, I haven't used LaTeX for a few years now, and would stick to the "classic" one when I did.

So far I only knew of Lua for its use in robotics development

Faheem Mitha

@terdon In LuaTeX, the Lua backend can (theoretically) create a diagram from some specifications. My impression is that the tool that I was talking about does something like that. But I'd have to look at it again.

I mean, create specifications for a diagram layout.

And then pass it to TeX.

It's probably possible to do this in TeX, but it would be better not to try.

@Kusalananda Here's the link - angg.twu.net/dednat6.html

Having looked at it, I don't think it would be useful for you, but it's the same general ballpark.

Andras Deak

11:27 AM

@FaheemMitha sorry, this has taken a while. So what I meant was that I've only encountered lualatex as suggestions when someone hit a static memory allocation limit in plain latex (on account of my not knowing anything about lua). And it works like a charm: you have, say, a data-heavy plot in tikz/pgfplots, pdflatex croaks on it, but using the exact same source with lualatex -> dvips etc. compiles beautifully.

This is what made me think that luatex was just another implementation, whereas it's really much more than that, and its having dynamic allocation is just a lucky side-effect for users like myself.

terdon

@FaheemMitha yes but you would need to create the diagram specifications. You can't just feed it a shell script and say "Now make me a flow chart of the logic"

If you need to figure out all of the logic yourself, you may as well make the diagram too.

Andras Deak

surely it just needs some *rolls dice* deep learning

Kusalananda

12:58 PM

@terdon I could massage the POSIX grammar spec into any kind of other grammar language. What fra-san posted looks promising.

Faheem Mitha

1:19 PM

@AndrasDeak I see. I was not aware of this aspect. I started using LuaTeX because it makes this possible/easy that are impossible/difficult to do with the regular PDFTeX engine.

@terdon No in the case of this particular software. But it's probably possible with Lua.

terdon

@Kusalananda So you don't need a graph that describes the logic flow of a given shell script?

Faheem Mitha

@AndrasDeak E.g. reading from relational database. This is theoretically possible in TeX, I suppose, but I've never heard of an actual implementation.

In TeX you'd probably have your db write to a file, and then have TeX read from the file. Which is probably clumsy and bug-prone. But I've never tried doing anything like that. With LuaTeX it is quite simple.

Though the LuaTeX developers mostly use it for typesetting. But if one has an embedded "regular" language within TeX, one can use it for all sorts of things.

terdon

Sounds a bit like using sed to write a tetris game... It's probably possible but why would you subject yourself to something like that?

Faheem Mitha

@terdon What sounds a bit like using sed to write a tetris game?

terdon

@FaheemMitha Using TeX s a full programming language instead of using it for typesetting.

Faheem Mitha

1:45 PM

@terdon That's exactly why it's better to use Lua instead.

I would never recommend using TeX for programming. It's horrific. Some might say interesting.

Lua hasn't really caught on yet, but give it time.

Stephen Kitt

@FaheemMitha in scripting contexts Lua is quite successful

Faheem Mitha

@StephenKitt I meant strictly in the LuaTeX context. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Stephen Kitt

@FaheemMitha ah right, yes

Andras Deak

@FaheemMitha yeah

fra-san

5:55 PM

@Kusalananda This LaTeX package looks promising too. Again, the required syntax is quite similar to the one in the POSIX shell grammar specification. Not ideal for people (like me) who are not really familiar with LaTeX -- some effort is required to get started. But it likely allows for greater customization of the output.

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