/dev/chat - 2019-04-20

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8:39 AM

BTW, what is this -> chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/26/conversation/…?

Some kind of bookmark?

9:07 AM

@FaheemMitha Probably. I do notice bookmarks in chat are a thing.

So how would one set such a thing? Might be mildly useful.

@FaheemMitha Go to the permalink of a message. There will be a button for bookmarking on the right. I have not tested it.

9:31 AM

0

Q: What is the difference between CTSS and ITS?

I learned from the history of Multics in early days if Computers, Time Sharing System had used at MIT and later on Compatible Time Sharing System (CTSS) had developed in 1961 and used at MIT. In July 1963, Project MAC had started for improving the system which lead to the development of Multics. ...

operating-system early-computer

/cc @StephenKitt you may be interested ^^

@Kusalananda I don't see it.

user image

@FaheemMitha In the sidebar

10:02 AM

@MichaelHomer Yes, that's where I was looking.

4 hours later…

2:18 PM

console.log('hello, chat');

2:38 PM

To be clear, I am still unable to find the bookmark thing. If anyone feels like clarifying what is apparently clear to others, please do. Use short words and talk slowly. #explainlikeimfive

@Jesse_b Oh, it's all the way over there? I was looking to the right of the message. Thanks.

3:00 PM

:)

3:13 PM

@FaheemMitha It is right of the message.

@Kusalananda I was looking immediately to the right of the message.

3:35 PM

When viewing the transcript, it's where @Jesse_b showed you. When actually in the room, go to the "room ▼" link above the list of users currently in the room, and then click on the "create new bookmark" option.

3:51 PM

@terdon Yes I see it. But what would the bookmark be attached to by default? The next message?

And it seems it's also possible to terminate the bookmark.

I wish companies would start making quality products again. Although I am part of the problem because I probably wouldn't buy them :(

Wow, manual tools like Gimp are hard work. I feel like a bricklayer.

I like quality products. Though they can be hard to find, because people don't want to pay for them. But I would pay for them.

Yeah I think there is an extremely small market for a no expenses spared, ultra-high quality product in virtually every category

Some things are more worth paying for than others.

Things like computers, washing machines, and fridges come to mind. Though fridges are already pretty reliable.

Even in those categories though I think corners are cut. Even in things like aircraft and military defense systems, etc

4:03 PM

And mobile phones can be very expensive, but is one really paying for better quality? I'm not sure.

I am specifically complaining about server hardware at the moment though. I don't believe there are any products that are truly quality. Every one of them is just a bunch of lowest-bidder parts crudely slapped together

Anything involving moving parts can be a problem. Actually machine tools and similar, that's another category where you want good quality.

Oh, and laptops. That's another area where quality can make a big difference.

And even simple things like furniture - tables and chairs.

And basic electronics. Like alarm clocks.

@FaheemMitha I agree with all of this but I don't think there are any laptops that really strive to produce a no-expenses-spared level of quality

@Jesse_b The old IBM Thinkpads were unbeatable.

I don't know if they make them like that any more.

They used to use it at UNC, though I don't think I ever owned one of them.

They had some budget parts in them I'm sure, but old electronics outlast modern electronics by a huge margin

4:07 PM

But I liked using them. I did buy a Thinkpad, but by that time, it was already owned by Lenovo.

@Jesse_b Actually, solid state electronics is quite reliable these days. Unless you are purchasing junk.

@Jesse_b The problem was more Linux support. To some extent.

Every large electronic device (like a computer) will have budget parts in it that wear out within like 7-10 years

@Jesse_b Like what? And it doesn't apply to custom built computers, I suppose.

arguably done on purpose to require the consumer to purchase new hardware at the end of the devices "life cycle"

@FaheemMitha It does because you still have to purchase mass produced circuit boards

I remember reading years ago that computer power supplies are typically poor quality because consumers don't care about them.

@Jesse_b Everything in a computer is mass produced, by definition.

That's true. Every time I have built a computer I purchase whatever power supply is cheapest at the wattage rating I need

4:10 PM

Well, unless you are incredibly rich, I suppose.

@Jesse_b Apparently a bad move. At least according to the computer hardware books I read years ago.

Yes but what I'm saying is I wish companies would stop outsourcing all their production to sweat shops in china and start making some truly skookum products that are built to last indefinitely

I've used Seasonic for a while. Never had a problem.

@Jesse_b Does China have to mean bad?

And I suppose the outosourcing is to manufacture cheaper products.

@FaheemMitha No they make some quality products but the overwhelming majority of them are bad

And increase profits, possibly.

@Jesse_b Has anyone actually researched this?

For example, a US Federal Agency?

I'm sure it has been researched but that one youtube creator I talk about in here from time to time is involved in tool production and he has personally worked with several factories in china. Outsourcing to china doesn't necessarily mean bad quality but if you want high quality you have to pay for it, at which point it doesn't make much financial sense to outsource at all. You might as well just manufacture in your own country and not have to pay the import taxes, etc

4:16 PM

@Jesse_b That sounds at least plausible. I mean, the "if you want high quality you have to pay for it, at which point it doesn't make much financial sense to outsource at all".

Actually, another product where quality is important is shoes. They take a lot of punishment. And there is a lot of terrible footwear out there.

Good walking shoes/boots are quite hard to find in India, for example.

Even Seasonic manufactures in China. Sigh.

Actually, even in India, Chinese products have a poor reputation.

It's actually considered a good thing for something to be manufactured in India, as opposed to China. Odd as that may seem.

Though the problem with shoes is that they need maintenance. And I'm terrible at taking care of things.

Otherwise I would probably still have all my old footwear.

I have a pair of hiking boots similar to this (same brand but a bit older): shoes.com/timberland-white-ledge-waterproof-mid-12135/108674/…

I got them over 10 years ago and they are still holding up strong, and still the most comfortable pair of boots I've ever worn

@FaheemMitha yes, that's the point: you choose the first and final messages of a conversation and the bookmark will point to the discussion between those two messages.

@terdon Choose how?

When you click that "create new bookmark" option it gives you a cursor and asks you to choose the start and end messages

4:35 PM

@Jesse_b Ah, ok.

What about if you don't know what the end message should be?

Wow, Gimp really messes up PDFs. Yet another headache to deal with.

5:28 PM

Ok, so a spot of hairpulling over what DPI actually means, electronically. Is PPI really meant?

what does ppi mean?

Hold on. pdfimages -list actually says ppi, and I never noticed that before.

@Jesse_b In this context, Pixels Per Inch.

ah

well ideally a dot would directly correlate to a pixel

assuming the document was being viewed in its native resolution

@Jesse_b But dots per inch don't actually mean anything for an electronic image.

Dots is printing terminology.

@FaheemMitha Splitting hairs I guess but a dot could easily mean a pixel

5:32 PM

@FaheemMitha then you can't make a bookmark.

But people still use dpi when talking about electronic image resolution.

@terdon Bummer.

@Jesse_b It's not really splitting hairs. Correct terminology is important.

@FaheemMitha Not really. If you don't have a specific range, then you don't want a bookmark, you want a link to a specific message and then "read from there"

> Some digital file formats record a DPI value, or more commonly a PPI (pixels per inch) value, which is to be used when printing the image. This number lets the printer or software know the intended size of the image, or in the case of scanned images, the size of the original scanned object.

@terdon Hmm. Suppose I want to set one end of the range now, and the other end later?

They mean the same thing but as you say people aren't happy about reusing the existing acronym so they came up with a new one

To me it's arbitrary

5:34 PM

@Jesse_b My point is that (I think) in practice it means the same thing. Except PPI is the correct terminology. And dots don't necessarily correspond to pixels.

I think it would depend on the specific terminology that was used.

> Some digital file formats record a DPI value, or more commonly a PPI (pixels per inch) value, which is to be used when printing the image. This number lets the printer or software know the intended size of the image, or in the case of scanned images, the size of the original scanned object.

But we know what pixels mean. It's the atomic bits that make up the image. Probably corresponding to some string of numbers, in practice.

@Jesse_b You already pasted that.

Yes but it seemed like you didn't read it ;)

@Jesse_b I did.

@Jesse_b It's not. Like I said, dots is printing terminology.

> which is to be used when printing the image

> This number lets the printer or software know the intended size of the image

5:38 PM

@FaheemMitha then you make the bookmark later. What else?

@Jesse_b Yes, but we're talking about the electronic image.

Which brings me to:

> or more commonly a PPI

@terdon Ok. Just that in the meantime I might forget where my place was. Like if my browser crashes.

@FaheemMitha That feature is only useful when you have a conversation to link to. If it is still ongoing, then you don't have something to link to yet.

@Jesse_b Thank you for the class in reading comprehension. But "more commonly" isn't the same as saying that the other terminology is wrong.

@terdon Hmm.

5:40 PM

Well it's using that setting to tell the printer what DPI to set, so I disagree with it being wrong

@Jesse_b Well, yes, but not necessarily in a 1 to 1 fashion.

And how is that relevant, anyway?

"DPI is the wrong terminology to use when configuring DPI"

Huh?

The printer reads the PPI setting to determine which DPI is appropriate. I don't see a problem with using PPI and DPI interchangeably

And apparently neither does GIMP

@Jesse_b Yes, no doubt, but like I said, it isn't necessarily 1 to 1.

@Jesse_b Gimp uses PPI, as far as I can see.

5:43 PM

Well whatever DPI you are complaining about then

If you've found something that shows otherwise, please link it.

@Jesse_b I don't follow.

@FaheemMitha This statement

Sorry, still not following. Perhaps it's best we agree to disagree - this isn't going anywhere productive.

I'm pretty good at not going anywhere productive :)

Is there a vim cheat sheet q/a?

6:00 PM

@Jesse_b Why you are so good at this?

@PrabhjotSingh I like to bullshit

@Jesse_b Have you any idea that these things are contagious?

@PrabhjotSingh Yeah but @FaheemMitha is immune, he doesn't tolerate my nonsense

@Jesse_b He is very tolerant except that that he doesn't like verbose greetings.

Possible duplicate of What is the difference between vi and vim?

That question gave me a chuckle lol "What is the command to rm files?"

"What command do I use to cp a file?"

6:06 PM

@Jesse_b vi and vim are different?

@PrabhjotSingh Not on any modern systems but yes they are two different programs. On most systems today vi is just an alias to vim

and this. How can I delete a random lines from a file?

Yeah that one will make me laugh for a while

I can't understand things on this planet.

6:25 PM

@Jesse_b Most linux systems.

@PrabhjotSingh maybe you can ask a question on worldbuilding.stackexchange.com

: )

Huh, Chet Ramey (bash maintainer) is the only person I've seen who uses backticks for opening quote and straight quote to close the quote, in emails.

@Kusalananda ie: modern systems

ducks

@Jesse_b Chicken

=)

yeah vi is still vi on most of the unix systems I work with. It always throws me off

One of the departments has a debian machine that uses nano as the default editor and that is basically an act of war IMO. I wish I could find the machine's physical location and set fire to it so nobody ever has to suffer through nano popping up unexpectedly

6:31 PM

[...] He began to code. Master Wq watched for a while and then asked him, “Which implementation of vi are you using? Nvi? Vim? Elvis?”

“I don’t know,” said the Unix master. “It doesn’t matter.”

Master Wq nodded. The Unix master sat stunned for a moment and closed his document unsaved.

I think any time nano is opened you should get a message to stderr asking you to confirm that you really want to open nano

there should be no -f option to override this message

6:49 PM

@αғsнιη Thanks. There are plenty of resources to learn but a few to unlearn. This is good. I like it

How do you make keyboard keys in the markdown again?

found it: <kbd>

7:15 PM

in javascript undefined is different than not defined

seems pointless to me

7:54 PM

Those Debian editor preferences seem really arbitrary:

man update-alternatives
root@orwell:/home/faheem# update-alternatives --display editor
editor - auto mode
link best version is /usr/bin/jed
link currently points to /usr/bin/jed
link editor is /usr/bin/editor
slave editor.1.gz is /usr/share/man/man1/editor.1.gz
slave editor.da.1.gz is /usr/share/man/da/man1/editor.1.gz
slave editor.de.1.gz is /usr/share/man/de/man1/editor.1.gz
slave editor.fr.1.gz is /usr/share/man/fr/man1/editor.1.gz
slave editor.it.1.gz is /usr/share/man/it/man1/editor.1.gz
slave editor.ja.1.gz is /usr/share/man/ja/man1/editor.1.gz

nano 40, jed 42? Did they get these numbers from out of a hat?

emacs priority 0? Seriously? vim.basic 30?

I wonder how @JeffSchaller feels about jed

I'm not sure what all that slave stuff means.

Looks like a language thing.

8:28 PM

@Jesse_b That link gives me "Forbidden"

2 hours later…

10:51 PM

@Jesse_b I can only hope it's a mashup of Jeff and ed; otherwise, haven't heard of it

11:09 PM

It's a text editor, but I don't think there's anything ed-like about it

11:36 PM

Weird, my Konsole just froze up.

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