/dev/chat - 2017-11-03 (page 1 of 2)

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12:00 AM

:)

@EliahKagan It involves reading a lot of docs, but I want to know more about Linux and how it works under the hood, so I've started reading though I still have lots of work-related stuff to read too, so...

@Fabby Unrelated to what I first came here for, but same for me with XNU/Darwin/OS X/macOS. Haven't really gotten all that into it yet, though. Doing so will probably have to wait until after I finish learning C++, too.

The last time I bought an Apple product was when the good Steve was still working for the company...

:D

I can see how you feel. I've been continuing the tradition of my family always using Macs with a half-loaner of a relatively ancient iMac that I'd rather replace with a laptop, but none of the options look quite right to me at the moment.

They killed the 17-inch MacBook Pro ages ago and those of us who're still pining for it will most likely be left hanging forever, never to see it return again. Also, all our I/O ports are disappearing, and we all hate it!

Not to diss USB 3.1 Gen 2 and up with embedded Thunderbolt 3, but some of us still have legacy hardware we want to interface with!

Back to learning about OS internals, I'm looking forward to the release of macOS and iOS Internals, Volume Ⅰ: User Mode by Jonathan Levin, which the series's web site says is imminent. It should lay lots of gory details bare for those who want to see them.

@Fabby: Any-way, the nature of the beasts that are Apple's modern family of operating systems is that they comprise a race of strangely alluring chimeras.

12:19 AM

:D :D :D

On another note, the thing's just tempting me to poke at it and see what might happen if one were to switch out one of its parts, though doing that is probably way beyond me…at least for a great while.

I expect it would be…utter torture.

Y'know, trying to chase all those dependencies around.

Begs for some tooling, as do all large projects, but that's likely beyond me for now as well.

@Fabby: You ever messed around with some OS source code? (Somebody remembered maintaining packages, but those might have been userspace and I can't remember if it was you or someone else ATM…)

Yeah: BTOS, 30 years ago...

Stares… Come again…?!?

And I wrote VAPs and NLMs

Prepares to reach for the glossary that is Google…

12:26 AM

Convergent Technologies Operating System

The Convergent Technologies Operating System, also known variously as CTOS, BTOS and STARSYS, was a modular, message-passing, multiprocess-based operating system. == Overview == CTOS had many innovative features for its time. System access was controlled with a user password and Volume or disk passwords. If one knew the password, for example, for a volume, one could access any file or directory on that volume (hard disk). Each volume and directory were referenced with delimiters to identify them, and could be followed with a file name, depending on the operation, i.e. {Network Node}[VolumeName...

Oh, thanks.

Follows the link.

(Back when I was in the army)

Nods.

Sounds fascinating.

@Fabby: Wonder what something like that would look like if somebody built something along the same lines today, but with modern technologies…

Some design decisions would be different, I'm sure.

You wouldn't...

Unless you mean something like FreeDOS...

That's actually old stuff built with new stuff.

I meant with respect to that kind of modularity.

12:34 AM

Ah!

There are so many good ideas that are lost because of Micro$oft's monopoly: Bindery, Gem, Motorola Processors, ...

/shrug

Anyway, I need to reboot to USB move my home directory to another drive

CU

I have this idea about building a full OS on top of a syscall personality layer on top of a microkernel on top of a run-time exokernel/unikernel, but, again, that sort of stuff is way beyond me for now. Besides, the idea's nowhere near fully baked.

/waves @Fabby.

12:56 AM

You back at keyboard yet, @EliahKagan?

Yes, I have returned.

Cool. You follow that trail of links yet? (Should've just collapsed it into one or quoted the source, but 'oh, well.'

(Or…wait, maybe you've seen the question comment at the end already…?)

Shakes it off.

@EliahKagan: So…ANSI escape codes and printing them to log files.

How to go about that is the question…

(Processed, I mean, not raw.)

(So, their in-terminal interpretations, not the codes themselves.)

Twiddles his thumbs.

@EliahKagan: As you can see from its parent question, unix.stackexchange.com/a/401967/86927 gets me almost to where I want to be, but not quite there…

I have a couple questions. I hope you'll bear with me in case the answers are already somewhere in what you've linked me to but I've somehow missed them.

Fair enough.

Go ahead, shoot.

First, are you sure tee actually does not pass escape sequences through to standard output in such a way that your terminal will use them? It works fine for me on GNU/Linux (on Ubuntu 16.04, specifically, but also other systems in the past).

1:06 AM

tee would work…if it didn't mess up how things buffer and appear on screen. Usually this isn't an issue, but I think I've hit some kind of edge case with the command whose output I'm trying to log.

(Should probably report that, but one thing at a time, eh?)

And that command is:

HOMEBREW_BUILD_FROM_SOURCE=1 brew upgrade -vd --build-from-source mailutils

?

Yes.

Am I correct in thinking that the main manifestation of the problem is that you see colorized output from the build when you run it like that, but not when you pipe it to tee?

brew is from here.

Yes, I'm familiar with it, though I don't have a Mac readily available on which to run it.

1:09 AM

Right, just making sure.

In the question, you said:

> see output printed to my screen with its original coloration, unbuffered or line-buffered

Let me answer your more recent question…_types some more._

Yes, I was getting to that.

Ok. No problem.

Nods.

@EliahKagan No, that's not it; the coloration comes through fine when I run things through tee; it's just that the output's buffering changes from being by line to being by screenful…which doesn't help me keep up with what's going on while things are running, which I'd prefer to see in real time.

The color even shows up in the log file produced, IIRC.

Using various fix attempts, including the one given by @thrig, gives me line-buffered output and color at run time…but prints text interleaved with the ANSI escape sequences that would change that text's color to the log file I specify instead of colored text. I want the latter, of course.

The buffering change is weird. This is the absolute first time I've seen it show up.

You with me so far, @EliahKagan?

Yes.

1:17 AM

OK.

@RandomDSdevel Does the buffering change happen when you pipe just to cat? That is, is this just the behavior of brew when its standard output is no longer a terminal?

Also, before I suggest anything else, would script do what you need? Could you just run script, then run whatever brew commands you want to log, and examine the generated "typescript"?

I tried script, and that left escape codes in my logs. Which isn't surprising, given a note I've seen in the command's man page.

I haven't tried piping through to cat, though.

Hold on a sec…

Do you want there to be nothing in your logs relating to colorization? Or do you want the escape sequences to appear in the logs, but you want to view the logs so you see the colors rather than the sequences that represent them?

The latter, except tee just gives me the colors properly encoded into the text somehow, no escape sequences at all. I'm wondering if I might be able to reproduce that.

That seems like the crux of this, then. I don't know what would be different about how the sequences are written to the output file between tee and other methods, but plain text files do not support colorization, so if the log file has colors in it when you view it, then you are viewing it in a way that causes those escape sequences to be turned into colors.

In a terminal this should generally happen unless the program you're using to view it prevents it. Otherwise, it should generally not happen unless the program you're using to view it supports it.

1:25 AM

Just a note: cat causes the weird buffering behavior to start at the point where it does. I should also have mentioned that it only manifests once brew gets to executing Mailutils's configure script.

So buffering seems to work the same regardless of what you pipe the output to?

Back to text coloration: Well, I'm not entirely sure if it's plain text, exactly, then…though what else could it be…?

I mean... nothing. Output written to a terminal is displayed as plain text, except that escape sequences are supported to alter terminal behavior.

@EliahKagan No, @thrig's expect script works. unbuffer may have, too, but I'd have to check. Only tee gives me colors. (Let me check some old logs from when I've submitted bug reports to Homebrew about failing builds before to make sure I'm not just hallucinating or something…)

tee gives your colors but cat doesn't? Hmm.

1:29 AM

Indeed…

After reviewing old logs, the difference may not be as stark as I thought. It may just be that one way strips escape sequences and the other does not. I could swear coloring came through, but the brain is a fickle beast.

Does your cat command show colors in other contexts?

This is macOS, right? (Since you're running brew.)

Ah, yes, your question says so.

Quite. Give me something that might show colors that I can run that's quick, and I'll report back.

Based on this, I think ls -G shows colors. I recommend trying it first without piping anything to see.

(Quick nit: Linuxbrew says hi.)

Thanks--I did not know about that!

1:35 AM

Yeah. Maybe some of that work'll get merged upstream eventually; who knows?

The thing is, I expect ls to suppress colorized output when its standard output is not a terminal.

Will try, then.

I don't know that it will, but many commands do.

Roger.

The problem with me being sure cat tests adequately is that I don't actually understand that manpage's description of the -t option for cat. I assume that, with no options, cat passes escape sequences though unchanged and your terminal should display them. This is the behavior of the cat commands I typically use. But I don't know for sure.

1:37 AM

And ls -G gets its color stripped when passed through a pipe to cat. The tabs between file names become full line breaks, too.

Ah, didn't use -t. Should I?

You could try it. I expect it will make it look more different, translating escape sequences into viewable sequences of characters.

The thing is, I think this is all just ls changing its behavior because standard output isn't a terminal.

@RandomDSdevel To keep column form, you can pass the -C option to ls.

Nope, suppressed by the pipe, methinks.

So, actually, you can test this with an ls implementation whose behavior I am more familiar with and which I am also using, by running gls, which is what the ls from GNU Coreutils is called on macOS when you install GNU Coreutils through Homebrew.

Which I've done. That's next, then.

gls -C --color=always | cat

1:41 AM

And…success!

Ok, so cat is not suppressing colorization. But you said that you didn't get it when you piped the output of brew to cat... but did get it when you piped the output of brew to tee?

At run-time, at least. My older logs for previous build breakage with other packages don't show any, now that I've looked to double-check.

That means I should probably edit my question to reflect that and ask for how to strip ANSI escape sequences out for the logs while the tee-alike is running instead of after the fact. (I'm not sure I've yet seen a script that might get them all, either, but I've only skimmed so far.)

Though I guess I could do it after the fact, too, now that I think about it.

If you're seeing colors appearing in the terminal while you pipe brew to tee but not while you pipe brew to cat, that's very strange, and I think it would help if there were a simpler command than that brew command (simpler in terms of what it does, more than in terms of the command itself) that produced this difference.

Except I leave a note at the top of the log file saying what command invocation sequence its remaining contents come from, though I doubt this should matter; one doesn't usually type ANSI escape sequences by mistake, do they? I don't think I have, anyhow…

@EliahKagan Right. Can't think of any I've seen off the top of my head, though, besides ls without the proper options.

(Or its GNU equivalent, of course.)

When you run ls you can pipe to one of cat and tee and get colorized output but not the other?

1:49 AM

I can try and see.

Because that's the behavior you're getting with brew, right? As I understand you, you're getting colors shown through tee but not through cat. Is that wrong?

Honestly, I have no idea.

Oh. I've misunderstood, then, I guess.

They're there when running brew without anything else attached to it.

So... what's the difference between what you see when you pipe to tee and what you see when you pipe to cat`?

1:52 AM

Nothing with gas -C --color=always. Let me try plain ls.

Does "nothing" mean there is no difference in the appearance of output between piping to cat and piping to tee, or does it mean you don't get visible colors?

The former. Sorry for the ambiguity.

No problem.

I mean, I definitely don't expect there to be a difference. That's why I was surprised when I thought you were saying that there is some brew command that, when piped to cat, does not show colors as it is running, but that, when piped to tee, does show them.

That's what I think happens with brew. ls works fine. I can triple-check, though, if you like.

Probably not necessary to triple-check. Instead, I'm just hoping to get clear on which commands do what. So, you do get colorization with the command

HOMEBREW_BUILD_FROM_SOURCE=1 brew upgrade -vd --build-from-source mailutils | tee some-filename

1:56 AM

Yes.

...but not with the command

HOMEBREW_BUILD_FROM_SOURCE=1 brew upgrade -vd --build-from-source mailutils | cat

?

Yes.

That's really weird. I'm quite interested in why that would be. I also suspect that know why will help in solving the actual problem you're trying to solve, though I do recognize that you're not specifically looking to figure that out.

(Warning: We're going to have to continue this discussion tomorrow. The local web filter's about to clamp down for the night, and I still don't have a way around it set up yet.)

Yeah, I imagine you'd have to compile more stuff with Homebrew for that. :)

Okay. Please feel free to ping me tomorrow. I may or may not be able to reply immediately but I'll make sure to check my notifications.

1:59 AM

Will do. See you then, then.

I don't know if you have any more time right now but I have one idea, which is not even a solution, and which I can definitely tell you tomorrow (or I can ping you with it if we're not around at the same time, so there's no need to continue now if it's not good for you).

6 hours later…

8:01 AM

@Fabby Well, I figured multilingual was simpler than quintilingual. I do speak 5, after all :P.

2 hours later…

10:10 AM

@EliahKagan Thank you for the link to the bash manual. That was interesting. I have bookmarked it on my parallel knowledge-page in my zim.

No problem!

@EliahKagan GNU parallel having the same name as moreutils parallel does not help.

10:30 AM

@terdon :D :D :D English/Greek fluent, so I'm guessing Latin, Egyptian and Sumerian for the 3 others...

(French, Spanish and... German?)

French, Spanish and Catalan :)

You're a native speaker of Dutch and German, right?

Native: Flemish; Dutch, French and my English is so good Brits think I'm South-African who has lived in the UK for a very long time.

(and I never did)

Dad's Itialian, but my mum isn't so I've always pretended not to understand from when I was a kid, so it's a ROM language: I understand, but cannot speak.

German: OK, Afrikaans pretty good, Russian: basic, Hungarian, Arab, Swedish: I can be polite.

Ah right, I thought your other native one was German for some reason.

Greek I only know ne, oichi, leoforio, parakalo, yassou malaka

good enough for most things! :)

10:39 AM

I live in Germany currently because the company made me move there.

But I'm moving back!

And yeah, the Romance languages are great. You learn one or two and get the rest for free!

@Fabby Yay!

Yup!

:-) Mum is happy... :-)

Is Afrikaans so different from modern Dutch then? It's basically old High Dutch isn't it?

No, on the contrary, old "Plat Nederlands"...

It's more similar to Flemish than to Dutch.

I can speak Flemish slowly and they will understand 95%

Ah, low dutch, OK.

10:42 AM

they can speak normally and I will understand 99%

It takes about 2 weeks to sound like a boer for me.

But it's fair to say that Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans are all dialects of one another, right? The differences are more a question of vocabulary and slang than actual grammar?

@Fabby And yet you can sound like a boor in five minutes! :P

:D

OK, I don't know enough about Greek to be comparable, but: Dutch and Flemish share 90% of their grammar and about 80% of vocabulary.

It's more like Danish, Swedish and Norwegian, really

@Fabby From my limited (nonexistent) knowledge, I understand that those are directional. So the Danes can understand the Swedes but not the other way around or something. Is that not so?

E:G.
English: You are
Dutch: Jij bent
Flemish: Gij zijt
Afrikaans: Jij ben

they can all understand one another if they speak slowly.

zijt? That seems like a completely different root!

10:48 AM

Nope. "To be" is in all 3: "zijn"

Ah.

Damn, this is the sort of thing we should be discussing with @cerberus.

to be is an irregular verb in all languages I know...

Who's Cerberus (except Kerberos, the Greek one, not the IT one)

Yes. It's always the most common ones. I think there was a nice post on linguistics.se explaining why.

@Fabby High rep user on English Language & Usage. Native Dutch speaker with extensive linguistic expertise.

Also the most prolific chatter on the network. I'm surprised you haven't run into him.

Does he use Linux?

Lemme see if he's around there...

@Fabby No. I pinged him in the ELU room but he's probably asleep at this hour.

10:52 AM

i'm going to continue installing Ubuntu on my new shiny toy

meh! lets do Arch!

It's been a while since I've talked to the three-headed dog. Used to talk frequently when I hung out on Seasoned Advice's chat room.

11:10 AM

@derobert I haven't talked to Cerberos for a while either. But he doesn't come here. I don't remember if he uses Linux, but I don't think so.

No, he doesn't. If I remember correctly, he has a bunch of obscure academic programs that are Windows only.

@derobert Something like that. If I recall correctly, he does have programming experience, but not on Unix. And maybe not in standard programming languages either.

And Cerberus, not Cerberos?

This Aadhar card thing looked like it is going to get nasty.

For you fortunate non-Indians, the Aadhar card is a nasty scheme hatched by the Indian Govt.

@FaheemMitha Latin Cerberus

And it's being opposed by everyone on the Indian subcontinent with any sense and a functioning brain.

@Fabby Oh, ok.

GreeK: Κέρβερος (Kerberos)

11:16 AM

Re Aadhar Card - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aadhaar

The Supreme Court has been (essentially) issuing stay orders on this, which the Govt has been ignoring. In a "normal" country, this would lead to a Constitutional crisis. In India, it's just business as usual.

Even the US Executive obeys court judgements.

@Fabby Yes, I see. If I recall correctly, you have classical background too. Like Cerberus.

@FaheemMitha Well, mostly. He tries hard not to sometimes, but so far by legalistic means.

@derobert By he, I take it you mean the Orange One. But he's not the Executive, is he?

I mean, it's an organization. Not just one person.

Yes, the Orange One. And he's in charge of the Executive. And for the most part can order it to do anything.

@derobert I see. I didn't realise that it all rests on him. If he directs to ignore a court order, would it happen? The ignoring, I mean.

And at any time if you'd like a constitutional crises, please feel free to borrow him. Actually, keep him permanently! I'm happy to give him away!

11:22 AM

@derobert So, Pending Constitutional Crisis, then? And very generous of you. :-)

Anyway, for right now, we're more concerned about matters at home...

@FaheemMitha If he outright an clearly does it? No idea. Ideally that'd lead to prompt impeachment, but... if it doesn't... the who knows.

(Well, at least old farts like me)

@FaheemMitha In Europe, we all have...

@Fabby Surely not all. There are hundreds of millions of people in Europe.

@derobert Two typos in three sentences. Are you doing ok? :-)

Got enough sleep, I hope. I didn't.

>:-)

I told you to go away!

@Fabby Pardon?

11:25 AM

@FaheemMitha I got like 7½ hours! Went to very early, got up early as a result. Waking up before sunrise is surely a cause of insanity, though.

@derobert That sounds ok. Still missing words, though.

at 04:35 in the morning IST: I told you to go to sleep...

E.g. "Went to very early".

@Fabby I tried. That freaking A/C kept me awake.

(And thereby hangs a tale, with which I will not weary you...)

Put some lounge music on...

@FaheemMitha Yep. Insanity caused by getting up before the sun. Or at least illiteracy caused by the same.

11:27 AM

@derobert I'm not a fan of getting up early. I'm with Descartes on that.

As I recall, he recommended staying in bed till 11 am, or something like that.

@Fabby I'm not sure what that is. And no. Not in the middle of the night.

I'm fine with 10AM. 9AM in an emergency.

@derobert Hmm. You must be a snappy mover in the morning.

I normally don't get out of bed until 10 :-)

I've written a few answers this morning, I hope they weren't as typo-filled as my chat messages!

@derobert That sounds sensible. You too can be a mathematical genius.

@derobert They are editable. That's the good news.

The bad news is they may be so bad no one can understand them.

11:29 AM

The Supreme Court of India just seems like a completely useless organization. Kind of like the Supreme Court of the United States, really.

@derobert Feel free to link them here...

@Fabby can edit them. He knows Classical languages. Maybe he'll add some Latin and Greek tags.

BTW, does anyone else get requests from random strangers via Linkedin asking me to add them to my network?

@FaheemMitha Yup: all the time, most of the time resource hunters.

Apparently nobody is interested in the Aadhar Card thing. But it's being going on since 2011 or so.

Sometimes people who have 5 followers and just reach out blindly.

@Fabby Context, please. There is a reply-to button thingy.

Oh, you mean the Linkedin thing.

@FaheemMitha I'm not on LinkedIn (as I've avoided almost all social networks), so I don't get them. Sometimes I get emails from people I do know, I guess from address book imports

11:34 AM

@FaheemMitha That pings. If I respond just underneath, I don't use the reply-to

@derobert Emails about what? And I don't really use Linkedin. But once I created a page for it.

@Fabby True. But I'm ok with pings.

@FaheemMitha The LinkedIn invite emails

@FaheemMitha I'm not... :D :P

@derobert I see. Linkedin invite emails that they presumably don't know they are sending?

@Fabby No pings at all? I once suggested a reply function with no pings. But nothing happened. I think it's in some Meta somewhere.

Well, yoga class. See you all later.

Well, hello there!

11:36 AM

Hey @Cerberus. Long time no see.

I didn't know you people held secret meetings here!

Hello!

Hi @cerb!

I'm just off, but I'll be back later.

Bai!

@FaheemMitha I'm guessing LinkedIn says they're sending them... I've only ever really gotten them from people I know. Haven't gotten one in a bit, possible I told LikedIn to stop

11:37 AM

@Cerberus Not that secret.

Hardly secret. I was just asking @Fabby about the relationship between Dutch, Afrikaans and Flemish and he brought in Swedish, Norwegian and Danish, so I figured you were the one to ping.

Seems like I need to place a sock head in this room.

Cerberus, Terdon and me were talking about languages and the differences between Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans...

@derobert Ok.

@Cerberus Yes, you have to know the secret handshake, otherwise you get an rm -Rf / :-/

11:38 AM

@derobert I believe you mean rm -rf /*

<damage 300 hp>

@derobert Ouch!

Or deltree /y C:\*.* as the case may be

<damage 1500 hp>

Stop that!

It won't work. I'll grow new heads.

I presume you're trying to format me?

@terdon @derobert means rm --recursive --force --no-preserve-root /

@Fabby I seem to remember our talking about Dutch before?

11:40 AM

Yup... In Seasoned advice or so...

Right!

And now I find all four of you here.

@Fabby Cerberus isn't exactly new — been around since thew ancient Greeks after all — so I'm not sure his rm has the --no-preserve-root option.

3

I gave Terdon the example:

Rm = remove?

Jij bent, Gij Zit, Jij ben.

11:41 AM

That's an odd dialect.

@Cerberus yep, Unix command

Noted.

Dutch, Flemish, Afrikaans

Used to remove files (or, technically, file names)

I was joking.

Mainly because of the typo in zit.

11:42 AM

:D

Let's see how good you are:

But gij/ge zijt is not exclusive to Flemish! It's general Dutch.

Just not used much any more above the rivers.

is it "Werdt gij dronken?" or "Werd gij dronken?"

And not at all in Afrikaans.

Well, it is a past tense, so it should not get a -t.

The rule is: "Gij drinkt altijd thee, zelfs in her verlededen"

Unless it's like German.

Haha, I see.

11:44 AM

So Gij waart, gij dronkt, gij werdt

even in reverse...

Hmm interesting.

"Werdt gij"

Waart is of course expected.

But apparently the gij form is the only one that kept its ending in singular past forms of regular verbs.

You're just not allowed to write it unless its in-between quotes, but in-between quotes you can write anything and then the rules from before 1953 apply.

@Cerberus Yup!

Would you also write U werdt?

11:46 AM

:thinking:

Probably not, because that is really a third person.

no, it doesn't...

abolished in 1953 and still a current form.

And the exception we're talking about applies only to the second person.

Setting apart the "a language is a dialect with an army and navy" thing, would you say that Afrikaans, Dutch and Flemish are all dialects of one another @Cerberus?

What was abolished, exactly?

11:48 AM

Flemish as an official language.

@Fabby Huh? It isn't an official language in Belgium? Really?

@terdon Mm it's really hard to say. Flemish contains so many dialects, some of which are, I believe, not mutually comprehensible (just as some northern dialects aren't).

There is no such thing as Flemish any more: only Dutch and the "Nederlandse taalunie" was the one setting down the rules for "ABN" (which now has become "AN"

Standard Flemish and standard Northern Dutch are extremely similar.

@terdon No...

11:49 AM

Oh

Afrikaans is so far off from standard Dutch-Flemish that it's not really comprehensible.

Wow. No wonder you hate the Francophones!

That's what I said: 90% similar in vocabulary and 95% si,ilar in grammar.

@Cerberus No, it's not that far off from Flemish is the funny part.

Oh damn, I have to rush. I'll check the transcript later, this sounds interesting! Although maybe we should move it to the incomprehensible room instead.

E.g. a Francophone in Belgium had a harder time understanding Dutch (from Ansterdam) then a Sout Africak Boer living in NL.

@terdon :D

11:51 AM

@Fabby Well, one can understand it to some extent, but, without any prior experience, as a person of little education whose native language is e.g. standard Flemish, I'd wager one could not understand an Afrikaanse film.

I was in holiday in South Africa for a month and it took me 2 weeks to speak Afrikaans

@terdon Adios!

I went back to work there for a week and then it took me 2 days...

We can: Standard Flemish has a much larger vocabulary than Dutch...

E.g. a joke:

Een Vlaming and een Nederlander staan op de top van Mount Everest en de Nederlander kijk om zich heen en zegt:

"Wat is het hier toch mooi!"

en de Vlaming kijkt om zich heen en:

knikt en zucht.

>:-)

Moraal: Een zucht en een knik zeggen meer dan 6 woorden

another one: is "Kaars" male or female or neuter?

You would know!

female, because in Flemish there is: "Een", "het" en "ne"

11:56 AM

Certainly not neuter.

Right!

user image

Ne boer, ne jongen, een vrouw, het paard

een kaars = female...

user image

@Cerberus Wow, I speak a few but not all.

I speak only 'Haarlems'!

@terdon See the map above for linguistic distances from 'standard' Dutch from Haarlem.

Funny: Damme is on the map; but Brugge is not!

Brugs and Gents (30Km???) are distinctly different!

11:58 AM

Perhaps its dialect is less distinctive?

They can't have all dialects.

It's just a selection, I presume.

It's more than just dialects: there are different words...

It's not like there are only 30 dialects in the Netherlands.

dialect = pronounciation alone

Uhh.

language = literature

11:59 AM

A dialect is specifically not only pronunciation.

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