« first day (3758 days earlier)      last day (42 days later) » 

8:32 AM
@AndrasDeak I see.
@AndrasDeak Of course apt and pip would use different trees. apt handles system installation. pip is for locally installed packages.
@AndrasDeak I don't see the relevance of virtualenv here. That's for ones personal work, right?
@AndrasDeak I can't remember what flags I've used with pip/pip3 in the past. I think I might have used --user. A search of history just shows pip install.
 
 
5 hours later…
1:31 PM
@FaheemMitha that's for whenever you want to isolate a python package environment.
@FaheemMitha pip install on its own should use system pip, which in turn should fail without sudo. Unless it's a pip in an active virtualenv.
 
@AndrasDeak Ok, but I don't think I want or need to do that here.
@AndrasDeak Even as user?
 
What do you mean "as user"?
@FaheemMitha my point is that unless you specifically want to affect system python, it's what you'd want
 
@AndrasDeak One runs pip as user, because it's a local install.
I don't know what system pip is.
 
@FaheemMitha local install as in python built somewhere in $HOME?
 
System stuff is handled by dpkg and apt.
 
1:34 PM
exactly
$ which python3.8
/usr/bin/python3.8
that's system python
 
@AndrasDeak No, an installation which is not into the system directories. That is typically under /usr, as least for Linux.
@AndrasDeak Ok, I'm with you there.
 
Normally just pip will try to install into /usr/lib or /usr/local/lib or something
It can't do that without sudo
So when you just do pip install very_cool_package, you usually get an error due to lack of privileges
 
@AndrasDeak /usr/local/lib. That's local too. Sorry, I mean /usr not including local, I suppose.
 
OK, then localness is irrelevant
 
@AndrasDeak Ah, right. You can on Debian, if you add your user to the staff group.
 
1:37 PM
@FaheemMitha huh, weird
 
I remember having this conversation before. Possibly with you. Though I think it might have been with @terdon.
 
That's equivalent to using sudo, right? Point being that it can step on the toes of system python, or so I've heard
@FaheemMitha maybe
 
@AndrasDeak What's equivalent to using sudo?
@AndrasDeak Just for clarity, /usr/local is considered local per the FHS. It's not my invention.
 
@FaheemMitha being in the staff group, being able to install into /usr/local
 
On Debian, /usr/local looks like
@AndrasDeak No.
 
1:39 PM
OK
 
ls -lah /usr/local/
total 56K
drwxrwsr-x 14 root   staff 4.0K Nov 15  2019 .
 
I see root root everywhere...
 
@AndrasDeak sudo typically gives one the power of root. Though one can customize what you're allowed to do. But that always requires a password.
 
@FaheemMitha I know that... nevermind
 
Adding your user to a group might increase your privileges, or it might not. If that group is not already in use, it's irrelevant. So it's orthogonal to something like sudo.
@AndrasDeak Where?
 
1:42 PM
$ ls -lah /usr/local/
total 40K
drwxr-xr-x 10 root root 4.0K Dec 15  2019 .
 
@AndrasDeak Oh. What distribution is that?
 
If it weren't debian it would hardly be news-worthy, would it? :P
$ uname -a
Linux laptop 5.9.0-3-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 5.9.9-1 (2020-11-19) x86_64 GNU/Linux
 
@AndrasDeak Oh, it's Debian. Huh. Maybe it's left over from a previous version.
 
@FaheemMitha only on a subset of Debian installations; new Debian 10 or later installations have /usr/local owned by root:root
 
Maybe Debian doesn't do that any longer.
@StephenKitt Oh, they changed that, did they?
 
1:44 PM
@FaheemMitha yes
 
@AndrasDeak When was your original installation done?
@StephenKitt No doubt there was a lengthy thread on debian-devel.
I like that feature, personally. Is it possible to reenable it, or would I have to do it manually?
And what was the rationale for changing it? Some security issue?
@AndrasDeak "laptop" isn't a very imaginative name for a computer.
 
@FaheemMitha I doctored the output of uname because the real name is irrelevant
 
@AndrasDeak Ah.
 
@FaheemMitha late 2019
 
1:50 PM
@AndrasDeak Ok, so that explains it.
 
@StephenKitt Thank you.
@StephenKitt Thank you again.
 
My system still has /usr/src owned by root:src which I find more useful than /usr/local owned by root:staff.
 
@StephenKitt If it's a security hole, I'm surprised it was the default for so long.
@StephenKitt That's not the case by default, I think. Did you change it?
 
@FaheemMitha it used to be the default.
 
1:55 PM
@StephenKitt Oh. When did it change? My system (originally installed in 2013, I think) doesn't have that.
 
@FaheemMitha Debian 5
 
@StephenKitt Your install goes back to Debian 5? Debian 5.0 (Lenny), released 14 February 2009.
 
@FaheemMitha the default changed in Debian 5, so my install is older than that (Debian 2.0)
 
2:19 PM
Stephen's Debian install is probably older than some users on the site...
 
2:47 PM
@JeffSchaller My .emacs and .bashrc files are most certainly older than some users.
 
@terdon did you ever compile emacs ? perl ?
 
No!
Well, unless Arch did when I installed it, but emacs should have been available as a binary so probably not.
 
3:03 PM
part of my job was to compile emacs and X11
that was last century of course
 
3:20 PM
ouch... fun times :)
 
3:51 PM
@StephenKitt Ah, that's certainly old.
But AMD64 wasn't available for 2.0, was it?
@Archemar I've compiled Emacs, I think. When backporting.
I don't think I've ever compiled Perl. Not much point in trying to backport that.
 
first time I saw perl was shar file in newsgroup ...
I never bother to compile it, I use awk whenever I feel for esoteric programming
 
@Archemar on net.sources? ;-)
 
@Archemar Ooh, the nostalgia.
@terdon BTW, I wasn't aware you were a DWJ fan.
Going by
@Kevin closest I can think of is the (absolutely brilliant and worth reading even as an adult) Chrestomanci series by Diana Wynne Jones. — terdon 7 hours ago
 
4:18 PM
Oh yes, I loved those books as a kid!
 
@terdon I did too. Charmed Life, at least.
 
Yes!
 
I read the others later, I think.
The other Chrestomanci books, that is.
I read some of her books that were published in the 1970s while I was a child in India.
The others I read later.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:30 PM
can you not do not equals within arithmetic operations?
I guess you can but it's backwards
 
@jesse_b = is assignment -- if ((a=42)); then echo The Answer;fi, while == is comparison
 
!= seems to work ish
wait maybe I'm just being dumb as usual
 
6:47 PM
sometimes you just need a rubber duck
 
My son loves ducks
 
And ducks love the sun. What goes around, comes around.
ducks
 
7:20 PM
terdon just ducked
 
goose
 
guess we're back to monkeys
 

« first day (3758 days earlier)      last day (42 days later) »