The Bikeshed

curiousdannii

03:33

@Zizouz212 I have written it before, and you've read it meta.opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/511/…

overactor

06:23

Has anyone here voted differently on the "Ask Freely" suggestion than tehy did on the "Ask Free" suggestion?

And if so, what's your reasoning?

Martijn

08:56

I upvoted on Ask Free and didn't vote on Ask Freely. Ask Freely conjures too much of don't be afraid to ask anything in my mind, and crosses an arbitrary imaginary line for me that Ask Free just doesn't

@overactor ^

overactor

@Martijn That was basically my reasoning too

which is why I'm surpirsed Ask Freely is ahead by two votes.

Martijn

Ask Freely is more catchy and less awkward I guess

overactor

It rolls a bit better

But I think Ask free sticks better

Martijn

I don't like it because it associates with asking things freely. Others might like it because of that.

reasonable arguments can be made on either side

overactor

compare with:

ask/think differently

vs

ask/think different

@Martijn I will agree there.

Martijn

09:06

hrm

free beer.

/me floats that balloon, and sees where it goes

overactor

I am confused now

Martijn

0

A: More site name brainstorming - Part III

Free Beer The "wrong" side of free as in beer vs free as in freedom, along the same lines of naming for something you don't want, analogous to StackOverflow and ServerFault. Also, who doesn't like free beer?

Martijn

09:24

I've been thinking about the whole problem of conveying the "wrong" image, and how bad it is. How much do we care if people not interested in open culture initially think this site is for something else than open culture vs how much do we care if people who are interested in open source mistake this site for something it's not

IMO, the latter is a far greater concern than the former

differently put, false negatives are far more harmful than false positives.

Obviously, we don't want this site to be flooded by off-topic questions, but as long as it doesn't actively encourage the wrong questions (which is the line ask freely in my guesstimate crosses), I'm far more concerned about being recognizable for people who do want to ask questions within our scope

overactor

You make good points

Martijn

I'll edit the answer to include something like that.

overactor

09:44

@Martijn I'm hestitant to vote on it (up or down) but very interested to see how it will fare.

Martijn

@overactor I edit the answer (twice now) and its rationale is far less rambling now (I think).

overactor

I saw

Martijn

But by all means, if you don't like it, vote it down.

overactor

The latest edit certainly improved it by a lot.

I'm on the fence

Neutral Response

►

Martijn

It took me a bit of editing to actually get to the core of the matter of why I think it's a good name (and for me to actually understand for myself why I like it)

overactor

09:47

Wait no, that's inaccurate

blog.codinghorror.com/rubber-duck-problem-solving

Martijn

the crux of the matter to me is that the free beer analogy is traditionally used to explain things about free culture. And explaing things about free culture is what we do

overactor

I have strong feelings both ways

@Martijn What about casually interested people?

Martijn

The initial appeal should be to experts. We're still shy of that baseline.

Once that baseline is properly fulfilled, the casually interested people will come through organig growth

even if the site were named pile of poo

(which is not to say I would support pile of poo as a name for the site)

as soon as it's google-juiced up, we should be fine

see StackOverflow

I would argue that most people asking questions on SO don't even know what stack overflow is or what usually causes it

but that's irrelevant; they know to go to SO for programming questions, despite the name.

because they know the experts are there

overactor

That's a good point,

but SO had very good advantages over most other platforms when it was young.

Martijn

I'm on a roll with arguments today. I should get this brand of coffee more often

SO was the hyphenated site, but than unsucky

we are not in that position, but we can benefit from the same lessons learned

and the most important one was that if your UX doesn't suck beyond measure (the hyphenated site), and you have the experts, the rest will come naturally

overactor

09:56

I will agree, what we're doing here (or trying to) doesn't exist yet.

Martijn

Also, SO had Spolsky and Attwood behind it, who at the time were among the most influential bloggers around. We don't have that luxury currently (but we should)

overactor

@Martijn Basically, we need FLOSS superstars to get behind us.

Martijn

(which is also by the way why I am still peeved about close rationales like "you'd have to ask the FSF, which are not part of this forum". That's not a close rationale, that's a rationale to get people from the FSF involved)

overactor

@Martijn I agree with that

Asking a question that doesn't have an official answer from FSF but should have one could prove to be of great value.

Martijn

yes. If people like Lessig, Doctorow, etc. etc would be involved, that would be a huge boost for both our credibility and popularity

overactor

10:04

I would like the SE team to make this a little more high profile.

But I understand their reluctance to do so.

Martijn

If we want to be higher profile, we should (rightfully) do that ourselves.

Though SE has a somewhat strained community relationship. Their position on self-governance can be somewhat conflicting at times (yes, they want all community self-governance, all the time. Unless the self-governance wants things that they don't want)

In their defense, community management is extremely tricky

overactor

@Martijn I absolutely agree

It also can't really be compared to something like reddit.

Not every subreddit needs to be helkd to high standards.

The same can not be said for SE sites.

overactor

11:34

@ArtOfCode I won't contest it (mainly since I agree) but I feel liek you might have jumped the gun mod hammering that question closed

hi @flyingsheep !

ArtOfCode

13:17

@overactor Reasoning: I felt it was an almost exact duplicate, and answers on either could have applied on either. Had RubberDuck not edited, I would have edited myself to kick it into the reopen queue - I felt it should be closed, but that the community should still have a say, so I wanted it in the queue.

Martijn

"How do I make sure my project doesn't spuriously set off virus scanners" seems like at best tangentially related to "How do I make sure an open-source project is exploit, backdoor and/or virus free"?

overactor

@Martijn I personally would have closed as off-topic

ArtOfCode

@overactor I wouldn't say it's off-topic, but @Martijn the answers on one are applicable to the other, and solve the problem.

overactor

@Martijn Isn't the phrasing "How do I give evidence that.." though?

ArtOfCode

@overactor @Martijn That was part of my reasoning. The first question asks "how do I give evidence that X is virus-free", the second "how do I give evidence to a virus scanner that X is virus-free".

Martijn

13:23

The answer to one is using static analyses tools like a virus scanner and/or trust the reputation of the publisher. How does that apply to the other?

ArtOfCode

The evidential methods are the same

Martijn

in one case you control the virus scanner/static analysis tool, but have no intention of modifying the source. In the other you control the source, but have no intention of modifying the virus scanner

ArtOfCode

@Martijn Virus scanners work off reputation and static analysis. You give evidence to the scanner by being well-reputed, and letting its static analysis do its work; you give evidence to yourself by doing static analysis and trusting the publisher. They're the same things.

Martijn

So how does the answer to the first question help the asker of the second question

what exactly does he have to do?

ArtOfCode

@Martijn Yet that doesn't make a difference; the methods used are the same. I agree that the problems as posed are different, but their solutions are the same, which is why I closed. I won't recommend you VTR, since you've already done so, but do make that case in a comment, which might persuade others to VTR if they agree.

Martijn

13:26

other than "be trusted by all x" which isn't something you do but the other does

VTR?

ArtOfCode

Vote To Reopen, sorry

Meta Data

15:25

2

Q: Are questions on getting your project "blessed" on scope?

This question was closed How do I make sure my installer doesn't set off virus scanners? as a dupe of How to give evidence that an open-source project is reputable? Personally, I think there's a subtle enough difference to disagree with the duplicate identification and it seems well ...

kdopen

@ArtOfCode On the meta question: I'm torn. I tried to write the question itself in an unbiased way, giving pros and cons. But as I commented on the main question, I feel the question itself should be closed - just not as a dupe

OTOH these are precisely the kind of question that new FLOSS project "managers" need help answering. Is the site's brief simply to answer questions, or is it to encourage and foster FLOSS development and adoption?

ArtOfCode

@kdopen I don't know... I think my stance has changed since that ^ discussion, and I think you're right.

@kdopen That sounds like a prime candidate for another meta post.

kdopen

or an answer to the "getting started" post as otherwise it's a dupe

or do you mean about the site's goals?

ArtOfCode

The site's goals. Because that somewhat affects what we make on and off topic

kdopen

You or me?

ArtOfCode

15:31

You or me what?

kdopen

to ask

ArtOfCode

I'll write it up

kdopen

K

and I'll probably answer :)

ArtOfCode

0

Q: What should our site goals be?

After some small amount of discussion on this meta post and here in chat, I have a question for the community here. What are our goals? As a Stack Exchange site, we're here to answer on-topic questions about free/open projects to the highest quality possible. But is that all we are? kdopen su...

discussion featured

kdopen

ta muchly

Meta Data

15:54

1

Q: What should our site goals be?

After some small amount of discussion on this meta post and here in chat, I have a question for the community here. What are our goals? As a Stack Exchange site, we're here to answer on-topic questions about free/open projects to the highest quality possible. But is that all we are? kdopen su...

discussion featured

RubberDuck

@ArtOfCode they're not the same. Only the publisher can request a whitelist from many of the vendors. That is the answer I was going to post if no one else did.

Regardless, I had another goal with that question.

ArtOfCode

@RubberDuck That being?

RubberDuck

I'm really glad @kdopen posted that meta. I wanted to test the waters to see if we consider it on topic.

ArtOfCode

Go stick an answer on it then :)

RubberDuck

I'm gonna. Just gotta work for a bit. I have a feeling that I'll answer the other meta too.

Honestly, the other one may come first, because it directly affects the on/off topicness of my question.

kdopen

16:27

answers up :)

@RubberDuck Please chime in - those two question shsouldn't be a discussion between @ArtOfCode and I :)

RubberDuck

16:52

@kdopen I will. Give me time. I'll be back this evening.

Zizouz212

17:30

Geez... 13 messages and a spammed phone. I'll have fun! :)

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 'S what you get for not being around :)

Zizouz212

When I sleep!?!?

And I also missed the 10 millionth question on SO...

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Isn't it like 1PM in Toronto by now?

Zizouz212

Yeah, but I normally have to get some work done in the mornings...

ArtOfCode

Heh. True enough. I just have this site open most of the day

Zizouz212

17:39

I normally come up between 12 to 2:30 and then keep it open the rest of the day - normally until 9

ArtOfCode

17:50

Which is like 2AM for me

I'm on until 23:30, usually

Zizouz212

I might be up until 10 but never normally past 11

curiousdannii

21:28

On the virus scanner question: I think it is not a dupe because one is focused on human reputation and the other on machine reputation. Fundamentally different in my mind.

Zizouz212

@curiousdannii Yep, I noticed the three reopen voted and it

is reopened now

(I don't agree that it was a dupe, so I didn't reopen it at first, cause my vote is binding)

Abhi Beckert

22:37

@Zizouz212 I was busy earlier, are you still around to discuss scope?

RubberDuck

0

A: What should our site goals be?

I'm going to tangentially answer this question. Instead of defining goals for the site, I'd like to talk about the spirit of this site and the kinds of questions I would personally like to see here. OpenSource.SE's primary purpose is to connect people who are interested in (and have questions a...

Zizouz212

@AbhiBeckert I'm around :)

I might be on and off but I'm definitely here :)

RubberDuck

Gotta feed the kids. @kdopen @ArtOfCode meta answer as promised. ^^

Abhi Beckert

Sure, dunno what time zone everyone is in

Zizouz212

Well, I'm in Toronto, the other mods are in Europe

What about you?

Abhi Beckert

22:42

australia

8:40am

Zizouz212

Oh wow. It's 6:40 pm here

Abhi Beckert

So with programmers... I have two thoughts:

1. if something is going to be transferred here, it definitely needs to be on topic for our site. Anything that's a grey area shouldn't be transferred, I'd rather they closed it (possibly with a comment "you might try asking somewhere else" so the person asking the question has a chance to re-word their question to be more on topic with our site

2. we are still a beta site. I'm not sure if things should be transferred from an established site to a beta site

with regard to being beta.... I'm not saying our site might to disappear, but some things are still in flux. In particular a question that is "on topic" now might not be on topic when we leave beta

so mods at programmers need to be especially careful to make sure whatever they transfer is not only on topic now, but is going to be on topic in future... perhaps they shouldn't transfer at all without asking a moderator here for their opinion on that

make sense?

Zizouz212

Sorry, you're just going to have to give me just one minute

Abhi Beckert

@RubberDuck I've never seen a question about computer hardware or indoor farming on this site? Are there enough for those to be considered part of our community?

Zizouz212

@AbhiBeckert I take it then you want to make licensing and open project management off topic there

Abhi Beckert

22:55

No definitely not

Zizouz212

@AbhiBeckert That's not an issue: We talked to SE staff and this site won't be going anywhere (they almost never close public beta's)

@AbhiBeckert About that, we've remained in close contact

Abhi Beckert

Yeah I know we won't be closed

but we haven't fully nailed down the list of topics that can be asked here

Zizouz212

@AbhiBeckert Hardware is part of scope, and we actually allow anything open source, as long as it relates to the main principles

Abhi Beckert

So we should be especially cautious about transferring questions

Zizouz212

@AbhiBeckert I agree, it's just incredibly hard to reach consensus with half the community

@AbhiBeckert Many things that were proposed to be off-topic at Programmers are already well defined and established here on the site

Abhi Beckert

22:57

I agree those should be transferred

The only question I've ever asked on Programmers should be transferred (although it'd probably end up being marked as a duplicate after being transferred)

Zizouz212

Out of curiosity, which one is it?

Abhi Beckert

It was just a question to find a license that would be suitable for a project I was working on

I copied it wholesale to this site while it was still only a "proposal" as an example for the type of questions that could be asked here

Zizouz212

Ah, okay

Abhi Beckert

I wanted a license that none of OSI's licenses are appropriate for... ended up going with Unlicense although CC0 could have been another good choice

Zizouz212

You saw the license recommendation post on meta right? It allows any license recommendation as long as it is in hopes of being open

Abhi Beckert

23:02

Yep like I said I copied it while we were in the proposal stage of area 51

So... back to what we were discussing before... I haven't seen any hardware questions

I realise it's on topic now, but should it be? If there aren't many questions then I think it shouldn't be considered on topic

Zizouz212

Since open source is mostly about software, it makes sense: There's a couple hardware questions around

Ah trust me. There's a lot of things that have snuck into being on-topic which I think they shouldn't. - A lot of them don't even have questions on the site.

Abhi Beckert

Stack Exchange only works if there is a large pool of people able to answer a question. I don't feel qualified to answer hardware tagged questions, so I wonder if we have enough people here who are qualified

Zizouz212

I think it there would be a lot of aspects in common: you could likely easily take the principles and make a well informed answer out of that

Abhi Beckert

I also can't answer 99% of questions asked on Stack Overflow and that works fine, so I'm happy to have hardware questions here... but only if there are plenty of people who can answer the questions

Zizouz212

Don't worry, I can't answer anything at all

Abhi Beckert

23:05

lol

Zizouz212

I can't even ask and get an answer now too

Abhi Beckert

I'm less confident about hardware and software being related

Zizouz212

We were debating how much of a bounty I'd need to get a good answer on one of my questions

Abhi Beckert

hardware is not eligible for copyright at all it's only eligible for patents and trademarks

Zizouz212

One argument would be that there's a lot to do with patents and open source

You know CC0 was being disputed over the issue of patents right?

Abhi Beckert

23:06

Yeah there are, although in my opinion patents shouldn't apply to software

Zizouz212

It's just an extra thing to jumble things up :)

Abhi Beckert

Patents are a mess, they really don't work for software at all

I'm not sure they work well for anything, but software is especially bad

Anyway, with open source hardware... the thing is all hardware is already "open" unless there are patents

Zizouz212

They would work anything that is material, not literal or conceptual I would say

Abhi Beckert

I can look at intel's CPU under a microscope and figure out how it works and make exact copies of it, that is totally legal unless they have a patent

I can't look at intel's software and make copies of that however

Zizouz212

It's a very interesting subject of debate

Abhi Beckert

23:09

an open source license gives you permission to make copies of something, but since everybody already has permission to make copies of hardware (and since it's impossible to take away permission) I'm not sure how open source can apply to hardware

to me the "open" hardware community is more about contributing improvements and less about legal issues

Zizouz212

Makes sense to me

Ironic now that most pretty much all of our questions are about licenses

Abhi Beckert

Yeah

RubberDuck

@AbhiBeckert just catching up, so responding to your ping first.

Abhi Beckert

I think most of our questions are about licenses because that is where the biggest need is

Zizouz212

Also because they're the easiest questions to make

Abhi Beckert

23:11

Licensing is complicated and most people don't understand them properly

RubberDuck

Does a low volume make them off topic? Heck, the whole site is low volume right now.

Zizouz212

Since pretty much each question is artificial in early beta, there easier: find something and make a question out of it

With stuff like project management, it's all theoretical and thus harder to make a question without being broad

Abhi Beckert

@RubberDuck true, but some questions are more low volume than others

Zizouz212

@RubberDuck What do you mean? (I know, there's been tons of abuse/misuse of the close reasons)

Abhi Beckert

@Zizouz212 on meta RubberDuck wrote a list of types of questions that are/should be on topic. I was questioning some of the ones on the list, since so few people ask questions about them

Zizouz212

23:14

@RubberDuck Do you have a link to that? I don't think I might've seen it

RubberDuck

I don't think volume should be a metric for on topicness.

Abhi Beckert

0

A: What should our site goals be?

I'm going to tangentially answer this question. Instead of defining goals for the site, I'd like to talk about the spirit of this site and the kinds of questions I would personally like to see here. OpenSource.SE's primary purpose is to connect people who are interested in (and have questions a...

Zizouz212

@RubberDuck Exactly

Abhi Beckert

I agree, volume shouldn't be a metric

RubberDuck

On my phone atm, so no. But scroll up to see where Abhi first pinged me.

Zizouz212

23:14

Ah right. You don't get diamond pings on answers... :/

Abhi Beckert

but our ability to answer questions well should be a metric

Zizouz212

Not necessarily

RubberDuck

I was just making a point with the Window Farms project btw.

Abhi Beckert

Yeah, it's a good point

I haven't made up my mind where I stand on it

Zizouz212

Quite honestly, I think our scope should concerns applications of software and hardware now, and simply leave creative stuff (I've debated suggesting a proposal on creative stuff - literature, photos, data, transparency and stuff like that)

RubberDuck

23:16

I don't expect many questions of that type, but it is a Free project.

Abhi Beckert

it's also a question that could be asked on gardening.stackexchange.com

I think photos/data should be on topic here

RubberDuck

Not necessarily. Not if its a question about how such a project works.

Abhi Beckert

I've seen questions about photos, and I've had questions in the past about open data that I couldn't find anywhere to ask about

Zizouz212

This is old, but take a look at this post:

RubberDuck

Now, it could be an actual gardening question, in which case it should be closed here.

Zizouz212

23:18

2

Q: Make the site about Open Information!

Note: I understand this is very long, but be sure to read and understanding everything in this post. Alright! Day 6 into the beta, and we're about to introduce a new addition to the scope! The issue of neutrality has been big since the definition phase of this site. Conflicts and arguments ove...

discussion scope site-promotion neutrality

RubberDuck

> Anything related to the Open Definiton, and efforts to make information free and accessible to all

This. This sums up what I would like the site to be.

Abhi Beckert

I've done some work with Open Street Maps

there are a lot of thorny issues about who/how their database can be copied

It's also made worse by the fact that their servers are overloaded so you have to make a copy of their data if you want to use it at all in your own project, so figuring out how to make copies is difficult

Zizouz212

There was a lot of opposal to it (mind you, when other people raised the same things in smaller meta posts, it was received well)

@RubberDuck However, the more I think of it, the more difficult it would make to really make a site out of that here now, and quite frankly, I'm starting to think that it's inappropriate to do it

Abhi Beckert

Also... Stack Exchange is all about open data

All the software is closed source, but the questions are open

Zizouz212

Yep. Exactly it

No one has put it better

Abhi Beckert

23:24

So I guess that could potentially make us a site where people can ask questions about stack exchange

ratchet freak

like meta.SE?

ArtOfCode

'M here

Zizouz212

@ratchetfreak @ArtOfCode You two always pop in at the weirdest of times...

Abhi Beckert

@ratchetfreak yes like meta.SE, except if you ask a question about creative commons there you might not get good answers, since people who hang out there don't know much about creative commons. People here do understand creative commons

ratchet freak

that should tell you where to ask about the license issues :P

ArtOfCode

23:26

@Zizouz212 I'd like the site to become that, too. I'd urge that we at least don't exclude it; we should accept questions on open def or creative stuff, even if the majority of what we have is about software.

RubberDuck

And that was the main point of my answer. it's a big world and though there may be some duplication, the kind of answers you get here will be different.

Right. Be as inclusive as is reasonable.

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Do I now? Well I suppose it is 00:27 here...

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode I wouldn't mind having it, but I can't say yes to promoting it - we simply don't have any question/user/answer/anything base for that

Abhi Beckert

I just don't want to see questions that don't get good answers

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode I've seriously thought about a separate proposal for that

However, it would have a different focus: let me see if I can find my old comment about it

Abhi Beckert

23:28

I can't answer a licensing question about open hardware for example. I know a bit, but not enough to give good answers

Zizouz212

11 mins ago, by Zizouz212

Quite honestly, I think our scope should concerns applications of software and hardware now, and simply leave creative stuff (I've debated suggesting a proposal on creative stuff - literature, photos, data, transparency and stuff like that)

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 I think that would actually be the inappropriate action. That stuff is heavily related and close to our scope, we should include it even if we don't advertise ourselves on the fact.

Abhi Beckert

I'm a lot more confident about photo/data questions since my knowledge is largely about copyright law and that applies to photos and data exactly the same as it applies to software

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode Heavily related, but inappropriate because we have nothing on it: Look at Tim Post's answer for that matter, and what he has to say makes much more sense

12

A: Make the site about Open Information!

Let me take a second to introduce myself to those that don't know me. I'm Tim Post, the Director of Stack Overflow Communities here at Stack Exchange. I'm an associate member of the FSF, and a former contributing member to SPI. Most of my professional career as a programmer was built on free & op...

RubberDuck

@AbhiBeckert that's the community part, just because you can't doesn't mean someone else won't.

Abhi Beckert

23:31

After reading Tim Post's post (snicker) I've decided Libre & Open Source should be our name

RubberDuck

I like it too.

ArtOfCode

However, never having banned creatives before now, there's no scope change involved. I arguing that we should keep our scope as is.

Zizouz212

Creative Commons, not creative works

ArtOfCode

@AbhiBeckert I did propose that, episode one of the Great Debate, but it got shot down

Abhi Beckert

Creative Commons isn't the only creative work license, it's the newest kid on the block

ArtOfCode

23:32

We've never banned stuff about that either

Abhi Beckert

Also tons of open source projects include image files... so anything about them is clearly on topic

ArtOfCode

^ valid reasoning

Zizouz212

It's licensing that we've specifically included - The entire site revolves around software/hardware, or FLOSS for that matter, and we have nothing such as managing creative works: only licensing with CC

Abhi Beckert

since it's not so good to release images under GPL/MIT/etc, we should make it on topic to discuss applying creative commons/etc to those

not just licensing, what about "how do I convince a graphic designer to let me release their work under an open license so I can include it in my project?"

ArtOfCode

My point, Ziz, is that although we have nothing there it's never been explicitly declared off topic, and I don't think it should.

Abhi Beckert

23:35

one of my projects is currently paying thousands of dollars to a graphic design firm. we aren't releasing any of that work under open source, since they haven't given us permission to do so

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode Don't make it explicit, but to start outright supporting it would not be appropriate

@AbhiBeckert That's why I have my best friend to all the work for me :D

@AbhiBeckert That's already on-topic.

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Agreed; my point is that we shouldn't just shoot it down if questions come along.

Abhi Beckert

@Zizouz212 yep it's on topic, just want to make sure it stays on topic

Zizouz212

Oh trust me, once we make something on-topic and there's a decent amount of questions with it, it won't normally become off-topic unless something extraordinary happens :)

ArtOfCode

Mainly because it creates work for us in locking and deleting :)

Zizouz212

23:38

I just feel like a separate site for all aspects of creative works would be more appropriate than having it here now

Also, the nice thing about that open info site post I made was it was early in the private beta, and it would've been much easier to do at that process, not 55 days into a beta

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Possibly, but I'd lay off doing that for some while until we're fairly settled here with what we take.

Yell if/when you do propose it though

Zizouz212

Sure :D

I thought about starting it soon, it takes a reasonably long time to start something like that up

RubberDuck

lol. 55 days into a beta. That's cute. Code Review's scope was still being nailed down after 4 years. We still have an edge case fight from time to time.

Zizouz212

Like, look at this:

16

Urban Planning

Proposed Q&A site for government officials and experts involved with urban environments, including the planning and structure of cities and towns, transport networks, green spaces, infrastructure, smart cities and urban design.

Currently in definition.

@ArtOfCode I added smart cities to the site description there too

I found some people also that are sharing it so

Yaay! :D

Abhi Beckert

Most of the area 51 sites I've got behind failed though because not enough people wanted to get involved in a stack exchange site

some of them were big topics with millions of people discussing them online every day, but they still didn't make it out of area 51

it's all well and good to say "somebody should make a site for creative stuff" but only if there are enough people behind it

also, the area 51 FAQ specifically instructs people to avoid making small niche sites

Zizouz212

23:45

Eek... I really want Urban Planning to go through: I've already been making lists of questions and answers...

And they're of really high quality too

Abhi Beckert

I think it's a fine idea for a site

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 I seem to recall telling you, at some point, that my dad works high up for one of the big urban planners?

Zizouz212

Yep, he did the traffic management for the olympics, right?

Abhi Beckert

@Zizouz212 "When is a roundabout preferable over an all-way stop?" a round about is always preferable to an all-way stop

Zizouz212

Not to North Americans...

Abhi Beckert

23:48

there's no such thing as all-way stop signs in my country and that's the ay it should be

Zizouz212

But yeah, roundabouts are proven to be better than stops

But north americans hate them...

ArtOfCode

Aye, javelin and roads and that. And Toronto waterfront. More TTP, I thought I might ping an email in to them, find anyone interested.

Abhi Beckert

except they're expensive

Zizouz212

Good thing I'm European :)

Abhi Beckert

North Americans don't believe in paying tax so their governments don't have enough money to install roundabouts everywhere :p

Zizouz212

23:49

Oh trust me, no one believes in tax, but expects the government to do everything...

And that mixed with politics?

Abhi Beckert

actually that should have been "US Americans" not "North Americans"

we pay a lot of tax here in Australia

One day I'll do the math but I wouldn't be surprised if 70% of my income goes to the tax department.

Zizouz212

And to the big people that don't do anything, but get paid everything

ArtOfCode

And we in the UK got the middle ground

Tax bands from 30-50%.

Abhi Beckert

For example, if I crash my motorbike I can be air lifted by helicopter to the nearest hospital, where I will be treated for free

a helicopter flight is $10,000, and a hospital stay is $10,000 per day

Zizouz212

Americans? no. Canadians? Yes

Abhi Beckert

23:52

That money's gotta come from somewhere...

Zizouz212

In Canada, 1800 to go to Emergency

And that is just to "check-in"

ArtOfCode

As can I, but the NHS will dither about the treatment and whether they've got enough beds, and let me die anyway.

Abhi Beckert

In some australian states you'll have to pay for the helicopter

ArtOfCode

I intend not crashing.

2

Abhi Beckert

A friend of mine crashed her bike once and they sent a helicopter and a police car and two ambulances and two fire engines...

Zizouz212

23:54

I crashed my bike trying to avoid a car, and I fractured my wrist, and they think I tore a ligament in my knee

They never actually checked my knee

And just to add to the fun, they messed up my xrays

Abhi Beckert

To be fair, she crashed in a complete dead zone (mobile phone dead zone, analogue radio dead zone (it'd require a 50 metre tall antenna), no satellite phone because tree cover was too thick. So dispatch had no idea what was going on and sent too many people

fortunately our satelight distress radio beacon was able to penetrate the tree cover

Zizouz212

Eek

Abhi Beckert

It was fine, we were riding together, I rode out of the forest and called in the emergency

but then when they arrived I headed back into the forest with them, so dispatch was completely cut off

fortunately it just ended up being severe bruising, but no way to know that until you check right?

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