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3:33 AM
@Zizouz212 I have written it before, and you've read it meta.opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/511/…
3 hours later…
6:23 AM
Has anyone here voted differently on the "Ask Freely" suggestion than tehy did on the "Ask Free" suggestion?
And if so, what's your reasoning?
3 hours later…
8:56 AM
I upvoted on Ask Free and didn't vote on Ask Freely. Ask Freely conjures too much of don't be afraid to ask anything in my mind, and crosses an arbitrary imaginary line for me that Ask Free just doesn't
@overactor ^
@Martijn That was basically my reasoning too
which is why I'm surpirsed Ask Freely is ahead by two votes.
Ask Freely is more catchy and less awkward I guess
It rolls a bit better
But I think Ask free sticks better
I don't like it because it associates with asking things freely. Others might like it because of that.
reasonable arguments can be made on either side
compare with:
ask/think differently
ask/think different
@Martijn I will agree there.
9:06 AM
free beer.
/me floats that balloon, and sees where it goes
I am confused now
A: More site name brainstorming - Part III

MartijnFree Beer The "wrong" side of free as in beer vs free as in freedom, along the same lines of naming for something you don't want, analogous to StackOverflow and ServerFault. Also, who doesn't like free beer?

9:24 AM
I've been thinking about the whole problem of conveying the "wrong" image, and how bad it is. How much do we care if people not interested in open culture initially think this site is for something else than open culture vs how much do we care if people who are interested in open source mistake this site for something it's not
IMO, the latter is a far greater concern than the former
differently put, false negatives are far more harmful than false positives.
Obviously, we don't want this site to be flooded by off-topic questions, but as long as it doesn't actively encourage the wrong questions (which is the line ask freely in my guesstimate crosses), I'm far more concerned about being recognizable for people who do want to ask questions within our scope
You make good points
I'll edit the answer to include something like that.
9:44 AM
@Martijn I'm hestitant to vote on it (up or down) but very interested to see how it will fare.
@overactor I edit the answer (twice now) and its rationale is far less rambling now (I think).
I saw
But by all means, if you don't like it, vote it down.
The latest edit certainly improved it by a lot.
I'm on the fence
It took me a bit of editing to actually get to the core of the matter of why I think it's a good name (and for me to actually understand for myself why I like it)
the crux of the matter to me is that the free beer analogy is traditionally used to explain things about free culture. And explaing things about free culture is what we do
I have strong feelings both ways
@Martijn What about casually interested people?
The initial appeal should be to experts. We're still shy of that baseline.
Once that baseline is properly fulfilled, the casually interested people will come through organig growth
even if the site were named pile of poo
(which is not to say I would support pile of poo as a name for the site)
as soon as it's google-juiced up, we should be fine
see StackOverflow
I would argue that most people asking questions on SO don't even know what stack overflow is or what usually causes it
but that's irrelevant; they know to go to SO for programming questions, despite the name.
because they know the experts are there
That's a good point,
but SO had very good advantages over most other platforms when it was young.
I'm on a roll with arguments today. I should get this brand of coffee more often
SO was the hyphenated site, but than unsucky
we are not in that position, but we can benefit from the same lessons learned
and the most important one was that if your UX doesn't suck beyond measure (the hyphenated site), and you have the experts, the rest will come naturally
9:56 AM
I will agree, what we're doing here (or trying to) doesn't exist yet.
Also, SO had Spolsky and Attwood behind it, who at the time were among the most influential bloggers around. We don't have that luxury currently (but we should)
@Martijn Basically, we need FLOSS superstars to get behind us.
(which is also by the way why I am still peeved about close rationales like "you'd have to ask the FSF, which are not part of this forum". That's not a close rationale, that's a rationale to get people from the FSF involved)
@Martijn I agree with that
Asking a question that doesn't have an official answer from FSF but should have one could prove to be of great value.
yes. If people like Lessig, Doctorow, etc. etc would be involved, that would be a huge boost for both our credibility and popularity
10:04 AM
I would like the SE team to make this a little more high profile.
But I understand their reluctance to do so.
If we want to be higher profile, we should (rightfully) do that ourselves.
Though SE has a somewhat strained community relationship. Their position on self-governance can be somewhat conflicting at times (yes, they want all community self-governance, all the time. Unless the self-governance wants things that they don't want)
In their defense, community management is extremely tricky
@Martijn I absolutely agree
It also can't really be compared to something like reddit.
Not every subreddit needs to be helkd to high standards.
The same can not be said for SE sites.
1 hour later…
11:34 AM
@ArtOfCode I won't contest it (mainly since I agree) but I feel liek you might have jumped the gun mod hammering that question closed
hi @flyingsheep !
2 hours later…
1:17 PM
@overactor Reasoning: I felt it was an almost exact duplicate, and answers on either could have applied on either. Had RubberDuck not edited, I would have edited myself to kick it into the reopen queue - I felt it should be closed, but that the community should still have a say, so I wanted it in the queue.
"How do I make sure my project doesn't spuriously set off virus scanners" seems like at best tangentially related to "How do I make sure an open-source project is exploit, backdoor and/or virus free"?
@Martijn I personally would have closed as off-topic
@overactor I wouldn't say it's off-topic, but @Martijn the answers on one are applicable to the other, and solve the problem.
@Martijn Isn't the phrasing "How do I give evidence that.." though?
@overactor @Martijn That was part of my reasoning. The first question asks "how do I give evidence that X is virus-free", the second "how do I give evidence to a virus scanner that X is virus-free".
1:23 PM
The answer to one is using static analyses tools like a virus scanner and/or trust the reputation of the publisher. How does that apply to the other?
The evidential methods are the same
in one case you control the virus scanner/static analysis tool, but have no intention of modifying the source. In the other you control the source, but have no intention of modifying the virus scanner
@Martijn Virus scanners work off reputation and static analysis. You give evidence to the scanner by being well-reputed, and letting its static analysis do its work; you give evidence to yourself by doing static analysis and trusting the publisher. They're the same things.
So how does the answer to the first question help the asker of the second question
what exactly does he have to do?
@Martijn Yet that doesn't make a difference; the methods used are the same. I agree that the problems as posed are different, but their solutions are the same, which is why I closed. I won't recommend you VTR, since you've already done so, but do make that case in a comment, which might persuade others to VTR if they agree.
1:26 PM
other than "be trusted by all x" which isn't something you do but the other does
Vote To Reopen, sorry
2 hours later…
3:25 PM
Q: Are questions on getting your project "blessed" on scope?

kdopenThis question was closed How do I make sure my installer doesn't set off virus scanners? as a dupe of How to give evidence that an open-source project is reputable? Personally, I think there's a subtle enough difference to disagree with the duplicate identification and it seems well ...

@ArtOfCode On the meta question: I'm torn. I tried to write the question itself in an unbiased way, giving pros and cons. But as I commented on the main question, I feel the question itself should be closed - just not as a dupe
OTOH these are precisely the kind of question that new FLOSS project "managers" need help answering. Is the site's brief simply to answer questions, or is it to encourage and foster FLOSS development and adoption?
@kdopen I don't know... I think my stance has changed since that ^ discussion, and I think you're right.
@kdopen That sounds like a prime candidate for another meta post.
or an answer to the "getting started" post as otherwise it's a dupe
or do you mean about the site's goals?
The site's goals. Because that somewhat affects what we make on and off topic
You or me?
3:31 PM
You or me what?
to ask
I'll write it up
and I'll probably answer :)
Q: What should our site goals be?

ArtOfCodeAfter some small amount of discussion on this meta post and here in chat, I have a question for the community here. What are our goals? As a Stack Exchange site, we're here to answer on-topic questions about free/open projects to the highest quality possible. But is that all we are? kdopen su...

ta muchly
3:54 PM
Q: What should our site goals be?

ArtOfCodeAfter some small amount of discussion on this meta post and here in chat, I have a question for the community here. What are our goals? As a Stack Exchange site, we're here to answer on-topic questions about free/open projects to the highest quality possible. But is that all we are? kdopen su...

@ArtOfCode they're not the same. Only the publisher can request a whitelist from many of the vendors. That is the answer I was going to post if no one else did.
Regardless, I had another goal with that question.
@RubberDuck That being?
I'm really glad @kdopen posted that meta. I wanted to test the waters to see if we consider it on topic.
Go stick an answer on it then :)
I'm gonna. Just gotta work for a bit. I have a feeling that I'll answer the other meta too.
Honestly, the other one may come first, because it directly affects the on/off topicness of my question.
4:27 PM
answers up :)
@RubberDuck Please chime in - those two question shsouldn't be a discussion between @ArtOfCode and I :)
4:52 PM
@kdopen I will. Give me time. I'll be back this evening.
5:30 PM
Geez... 13 messages and a spammed phone. I'll have fun! :)
@Zizouz212 'S what you get for not being around :)
When I sleep!?!?
And I also missed the 10 millionth question on SO...
@Zizouz212 Isn't it like 1PM in Toronto by now?
Yeah, but I normally have to get some work done in the mornings...
Heh. True enough. I just have this site open most of the day
5:39 PM
I normally come up between 12 to 2:30 and then keep it open the rest of the day - normally until 9
5:50 PM
Which is like 2AM for me
I'm on until 23:30, usually
I might be up until 10 but never normally past 11
4 hours later…
9:28 PM
On the virus scanner question: I think it is not a dupe because one is focused on human reputation and the other on machine reputation. Fundamentally different in my mind.
@curiousdannii Yep, I noticed the three reopen voted and it
is reopened now
(I don't agree that it was a dupe, so I didn't reopen it at first, cause my vote is binding)
1 hour later…
10:37 PM
@Zizouz212 I was busy earlier, are you still around to discuss scope?
A: What should our site goals be?

RubberDuckI'm going to tangentially answer this question. Instead of defining goals for the site, I'd like to talk about the spirit of this site and the kinds of questions I would personally like to see here. OpenSource.SE's primary purpose is to connect people who are interested in (and have questions a...

@AbhiBeckert I'm around :)
I might be on and off but I'm definitely here :)
Gotta feed the kids. @kdopen @ArtOfCode meta answer as promised. ^^
Sure, dunno what time zone everyone is in
Well, I'm in Toronto, the other mods are in Europe
What about you?
10:42 PM
Oh wow. It's 6:40 pm here
So with programmers... I have two thoughts:
1. if something is going to be transferred here, it definitely needs to be on topic for our site. Anything that's a grey area shouldn't be transferred, I'd rather they closed it (possibly with a comment "you might try asking somewhere else" so the person asking the question has a chance to re-word their question to be more on topic with our site
2. we are still a beta site. I'm not sure if things should be transferred from an established site to a beta site
with regard to being beta.... I'm not saying our site might to disappear, but some things are still in flux. In particular a question that is "on topic" now might not be on topic when we leave beta
so mods at programmers need to be especially careful to make sure whatever they transfer is not only on topic now, but is going to be on topic in future... perhaps they shouldn't transfer at all without asking a moderator here for their opinion on that
make sense?
Sorry, you're just going to have to give me just one minute
@RubberDuck I've never seen a question about computer hardware or indoor farming on this site? Are there enough for those to be considered part of our community?
@AbhiBeckert I take it then you want to make licensing and open project management off topic there
10:55 PM
No definitely not
@AbhiBeckert That's not an issue: We talked to SE staff and this site won't be going anywhere (they almost never close public beta's)
@AbhiBeckert About that, we've remained in close contact
Yeah I know we won't be closed
but we haven't fully nailed down the list of topics that can be asked here
@AbhiBeckert Hardware is part of scope, and we actually allow anything open source, as long as it relates to the main principles
So we should be especially cautious about transferring questions
@AbhiBeckert I agree, it's just incredibly hard to reach consensus with half the community
@AbhiBeckert Many things that were proposed to be off-topic at Programmers are already well defined and established here on the site
10:57 PM
I agree those should be transferred
The only question I've ever asked on Programmers should be transferred (although it'd probably end up being marked as a duplicate after being transferred)
Out of curiosity, which one is it?
It was just a question to find a license that would be suitable for a project I was working on
I copied it wholesale to this site while it was still only a "proposal" as an example for the type of questions that could be asked here
Ah, okay
I wanted a license that none of OSI's licenses are appropriate for... ended up going with Unlicense although CC0 could have been another good choice
You saw the license recommendation post on meta right? It allows any license recommendation as long as it is in hopes of being open
11:02 PM
Yep like I said I copied it while we were in the proposal stage of area 51
So... back to what we were discussing before... I haven't seen any hardware questions
I realise it's on topic now, but should it be? If there aren't many questions then I think it shouldn't be considered on topic
Since open source is mostly about software, it makes sense: There's a couple questions around
Ah trust me. There's a lot of things that have snuck into being on-topic which I think they shouldn't. - A lot of them don't even have questions on the site.
Stack Exchange only works if there is a large pool of people able to answer a question. I don't feel qualified to answer hardware tagged questions, so I wonder if we have enough people here who are qualified
I think it there would be a lot of aspects in common: you could likely easily take the principles and make a well informed answer out of that
I also can't answer 99% of questions asked on Stack Overflow and that works fine, so I'm happy to have hardware questions here... but only if there are plenty of people who can answer the questions
Don't worry, I can't answer anything at all
11:05 PM
I can't even ask and get an answer now too
I'm less confident about hardware and software being related
We were debating how much of a bounty I'd need to get a good answer on one of my questions
hardware is not eligible for copyright at all it's only eligible for patents and trademarks
One argument would be that there's a lot to do with patents and open source
You know CC0 was being disputed over the issue of patents right?
11:06 PM
Yeah there are, although in my opinion patents shouldn't apply to software
It's just an extra thing to jumble things up :)
Patents are a mess, they really don't work for software at all
I'm not sure they work well for anything, but software is especially bad
Anyway, with open source hardware... the thing is all hardware is already "open" unless there are patents
They would work anything that is material, not literal or conceptual I would say
I can look at intel's CPU under a microscope and figure out how it works and make exact copies of it, that is totally legal unless they have a patent
I can't look at intel's software and make copies of that however
It's a very interesting subject of debate
11:09 PM
an open source license gives you permission to make copies of something, but since everybody already has permission to make copies of hardware (and since it's impossible to take away permission) I'm not sure how open source can apply to hardware
to me the "open" hardware community is more about contributing improvements and less about legal issues
Makes sense to me
Ironic now that most pretty much all of our questions are about licenses
@AbhiBeckert just catching up, so responding to your ping first.
I think most of our questions are about licenses because that is where the biggest need is
Also because they're the easiest questions to make
11:11 PM
Licensing is complicated and most people don't understand them properly
Does a low volume make them off topic? Heck, the whole site is low volume right now.
Since pretty much each question is artificial in early beta, there easier: find something and make a question out of it
With stuff like project management, it's all theoretical and thus harder to make a question without being broad
@RubberDuck true, but some questions are more low volume than others
@RubberDuck What do you mean? (I know, there's been tons of abuse/misuse of the close reasons)
@Zizouz212 on meta RubberDuck wrote a list of types of questions that are/should be on topic. I was questioning some of the ones on the list, since so few people ask questions about them
11:14 PM
@RubberDuck Do you have a link to that? I don't think I might've seen it
I don't think volume should be a metric for on topicness.
A: What should our site goals be?

RubberDuckI'm going to tangentially answer this question. Instead of defining goals for the site, I'd like to talk about the spirit of this site and the kinds of questions I would personally like to see here. OpenSource.SE's primary purpose is to connect people who are interested in (and have questions a...

@RubberDuck Exactly
I agree, volume shouldn't be a metric
On my phone atm, so no. But scroll up to see where Abhi first pinged me.
11:14 PM
Ah right. You don't get diamond pings on answers... :/
but our ability to answer questions well should be a metric
Not necessarily
I was just making a point with the Window Farms project btw.
Yeah, it's a good point
I haven't made up my mind where I stand on it
Quite honestly, I think our scope should concerns applications of software and hardware now, and simply leave creative stuff (I've debated suggesting a proposal on creative stuff - literature, photos, data, transparency and stuff like that)
11:16 PM
I don't expect many questions of that type, but it is a Free project.
it's also a question that could be asked on gardening.stackexchange.com
I think photos/data should be on topic here
Not necessarily. Not if its a question about how such a project works.
I've seen questions about photos, and I've had questions in the past about open data that I couldn't find anywhere to ask about
This is old, but take a look at this post:
Now, it could be an actual gardening question, in which case it should be closed here.
11:18 PM
Q: Make the site about Open Information!

Zizouz212Note: I understand this is very long, but be sure to read and understanding everything in this post. Alright! Day 6 into the beta, and we're about to introduce a new addition to the scope! The issue of neutrality has been big since the definition phase of this site. Conflicts and arguments ove...

> Anything related to the Open Definiton, and efforts to make information free and accessible to all
This. This sums up what I would like the site to be.
I've done some work with Open Street Maps
there are a lot of thorny issues about who/how their database can be copied
It's also made worse by the fact that their servers are overloaded so you have to make a copy of their data if you want to use it at all in your own project, so figuring out how to make copies is difficult
There was a lot of opposal to it (mind you, when other people raised the same things in smaller meta posts, it was received well)
@RubberDuck However, the more I think of it, the more difficult it would make to really make a site out of that here now, and quite frankly, I'm starting to think that it's inappropriate to do it
Also... Stack Exchange is all about open data
All the software is closed source, but the questions are open
Yep. Exactly it
No one has put it better
11:24 PM
So I guess that could potentially make us a site where people can ask questions about stack exchange
like meta.SE?
'M here
@ratchetfreak @ArtOfCode You two always pop in at the weirdest of times...
@ratchetfreak yes like meta.SE, except if you ask a question about creative commons there you might not get good answers, since people who hang out there don't know much about creative commons. People here do understand creative commons
that should tell you where to ask about the license issues :P
11:26 PM
@Zizouz212 I'd like the site to become that, too. I'd urge that we at least don't exclude it; we should accept questions on open def or creative stuff, even if the majority of what we have is about software.
And that was the main point of my answer. it's a big world and though there may be some duplication, the kind of answers you get here will be different.
Right. Be as inclusive as is reasonable.
@Zizouz212 Do I now? Well I suppose it is 00:27 here...
@ArtOfCode I wouldn't mind having it, but I can't say yes to promoting it - we simply don't have any question/user/answer/anything base for that
I just don't want to see questions that don't get good answers
@ArtOfCode I've seriously thought about a separate proposal for that
However, it would have a different focus: let me see if I can find my old comment about it
11:28 PM
I can't answer a licensing question about open hardware for example. I know a bit, but not enough to give good answers
11 mins ago, by Zizouz212
Quite honestly, I think our scope should concerns applications of software and hardware now, and simply leave creative stuff (I've debated suggesting a proposal on creative stuff - literature, photos, data, transparency and stuff like that)
@Zizouz212 I think that would actually be the inappropriate action. That stuff is heavily related and close to our scope, we should include it even if we don't advertise ourselves on the fact.
I'm a lot more confident about photo/data questions since my knowledge is largely about copyright law and that applies to photos and data exactly the same as it applies to software
@ArtOfCode Heavily related, but inappropriate because we have nothing on it: Look at Tim Post's answer for that matter, and what he has to say makes much more sense
A: Make the site about Open Information!

Tim PostLet me take a second to introduce myself to those that don't know me. I'm Tim Post, the Director of Stack Overflow Communities here at Stack Exchange. I'm an associate member of the FSF, and a former contributing member to SPI. Most of my professional career as a programmer was built on free & op...

@AbhiBeckert that's the community part, just because you can't doesn't mean someone else won't.
11:31 PM
After reading Tim Post's post (snicker) I've decided Libre & Open Source should be our name
I like it too.
However, never having banned creatives before now, there's no scope change involved. I arguing that we should keep our scope as is.
Creative Commons, not creative works
@AbhiBeckert I did propose that, episode one of the Great Debate, but it got shot down
Creative Commons isn't the only creative work license, it's the newest kid on the block
11:32 PM
We've never banned stuff about that either
Also tons of open source projects include image files... so anything about them is clearly on topic
^ valid reasoning
It's licensing that we've specifically included - The entire site revolves around software/hardware, or FLOSS for that matter, and we have nothing such as managing creative works: only licensing with CC
since it's not so good to release images under GPL/MIT/etc, we should make it on topic to discuss applying creative commons/etc to those
not just licensing, what about "how do I convince a graphic designer to let me release their work under an open license so I can include it in my project?"
My point, Ziz, is that although we have nothing there it's never been explicitly declared off topic, and I don't think it should.
11:35 PM
one of my projects is currently paying thousands of dollars to a graphic design firm. we aren't releasing any of that work under open source, since they haven't given us permission to do so
@ArtOfCode Don't make it explicit, but to start outright supporting it would not be appropriate
@AbhiBeckert That's why I have my best friend to all the work for me :D
@AbhiBeckert That's already on-topic.
@Zizouz212 Agreed; my point is that we shouldn't just shoot it down if questions come along.
@Zizouz212 yep it's on topic, just want to make sure it stays on topic
Oh trust me, once we make something on-topic and there's a decent amount of questions with it, it won't normally become off-topic unless something extraordinary happens :)
Mainly because it creates work for us in locking and deleting :)
11:38 PM
I just feel like a separate site for all aspects of creative works would be more appropriate than having it here now
Also, the nice thing about that open info site post I made was it was early in the private beta, and it would've been much easier to do at that process, not 55 days into a beta
@Zizouz212 Possibly, but I'd lay off doing that for some while until we're fairly settled here with what we take.
Yell if/when you do propose it though
Sure :D
I thought about starting it soon, it takes a reasonably long time to start something like that up
lol. 55 days into a beta. That's cute. Code Review's scope was still being nailed down after 4 years. We still have an edge case fight from time to time.
Like, look at this:
Urban Planning

Proposed Q&A site for government officials and experts involved with urban environments, including the planning and structure of cities and towns, transport networks, green spaces, infrastructure, smart cities and urban design.

Currently in definition.

@ArtOfCode I added smart cities to the site description there too
I found some people also that are sharing it so
Yaay! :D
Most of the area 51 sites I've got behind failed though because not enough people wanted to get involved in a stack exchange site
some of them were big topics with millions of people discussing them online every day, but they still didn't make it out of area 51
it's all well and good to say "somebody should make a site for creative stuff" but only if there are enough people behind it
also, the area 51 FAQ specifically instructs people to avoid making small niche sites
11:45 PM
Eek... I really want Urban Planning to go through: I've already been making lists of questions and answers...
And they're of really high quality too
I think it's a fine idea for a site
@Zizouz212 I seem to recall telling you, at some point, that my dad works high up for one of the big urban planners?
Yep, he did the traffic management for the olympics, right?
@Zizouz212 "When is a roundabout preferable over an all-way stop?" a round about is always preferable to an all-way stop
Not to North Americans...
11:48 PM
there's no such thing as all-way stop signs in my country and that's the ay it should be
But yeah, roundabouts are proven to be better than stops
But north americans hate them...
Aye, javelin and roads and that. And Toronto waterfront. More TTP, I thought I might ping an email in to them, find anyone interested.
except they're expensive
Good thing I'm European :)
North Americans don't believe in paying tax so their governments don't have enough money to install roundabouts everywhere :p
11:49 PM
Oh trust me, no one believes in tax, but expects the government to do everything...
And that mixed with politics?
actually that should have been "US Americans" not "North Americans"
we pay a lot of tax here in Australia
One day I'll do the math but I wouldn't be surprised if 70% of my income goes to the tax department.
And to the big people that don't do anything, but get paid everything
And we in the UK got the middle ground
Tax bands from 30-50%.
For example, if I crash my motorbike I can be air lifted by helicopter to the nearest hospital, where I will be treated for free
a helicopter flight is $10,000, and a hospital stay is $10,000 per day
Americans? no. Canadians? Yes
11:52 PM
That money's gotta come from somewhere...
In Canada, 1800 to go to Emergency
And that is just to "check-in"
As can I, but the NHS will dither about the treatment and whether they've got enough beds, and let me die anyway.
In some australian states you'll have to pay for the helicopter
I intend not crashing.
A friend of mine crashed her bike once and they sent a helicopter and a police car and two ambulances and two fire engines...
11:54 PM
I crashed my bike trying to avoid a car, and I fractured my wrist, and they think I tore a ligament in my knee
They never actually checked my knee
And just to add to the fun, they messed up my xrays
To be fair, she crashed in a complete dead zone (mobile phone dead zone, analogue radio dead zone (it'd require a 50 metre tall antenna), no satellite phone because tree cover was too thick. So dispatch had no idea what was going on and sent too many people
fortunately our satelight distress radio beacon was able to penetrate the tree cover
It was fine, we were riding together, I rode out of the forest and called in the emergency
but then when they arrived I headed back into the forest with them, so dispatch was completely cut off
fortunately it just ended up being severe bruising, but no way to know that until you check right?

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