The Bikeshed

Mnementh

9:22 AM

@Zizouz212 Everything feels quite quiet today...

overactor

9:56 AM

@Mnementh weekends are traditionally queit

ArtOfCode

10:27 AM

Activity graphs would show the qutieness, if we were on SEDE

Gilles

it's a holiday week-end in the US

ratchet freak

@Gilles something about fireworks I think

Mnementh

Hmm, out of curiosity: shouldn't I qualify for bronze-tag-badge here? opensource.stackexchange.com/tags/licensing/topusers

Gilles

@Mnementh tag badges are only awarded if there are at least X questions in the tag, I doubt we've reached the threshold

it's documented in the badge FAQ on MSE

Mnementh

@Gilles Ah, that explains it, thanks

ArtOfCode

12:33 PM

@Mnementh X = 200

Currently we have 73

Gilles

Wow, 240 questions

that may be a record in a private beta

no, SR had way more

Mnementh

@ArtOfCode Thanks, I was wondering why that badge wasn't coming

@Gilles That seems to be quite a lot

@Gilles What is SR

ArtOfCode

Software Recommendations

Mnementh

ah

OK, it is easy to come up with questions for this :-)

Gilles

yeah, the problem on SR was not quantity, it was quality control

we knew that before the site started, but still it took 2 weeks of private beta to let things settle down

here the volume isn't as crazy, but I guess we got a second week of private beta because the scope doesn't seem very settled

Mnementh

12:38 PM

the problem here is seemingly focus, still the openinfo-question on meta is very controversial, getting nearly as much downvotes as upvotes

curiousdannii

The scope is pretty well defined I think

Mnementh

People seem to have VERY different ideas about what this site should include

Gilles

2

Q: Make the site about Open Information!

Note: I understand this is very long, but be sure to read and understanding everything in this post. Alright! Day 6 into the beta, and we're about to introduce a new addition to the scope! The issue of neutrality has been big since the definition phase of this site. Conflicts and arguments over...

curiousdannii

The issue is more branding and settling on some good neutral terminology

Gilles

+9/-7

Mnementh

12:38 PM

@Gilles: exactly

@curiousdannii Not sure: is Wikipedia on topic? Are free content-works on topic (like CC-licensed)? And so on.

curiousdannii

@Mnementh I've seen no one suggest CC as a whole should be off-topic, or that non-software should be or anything like that

It's only the edge cases

should CC NC be off topic

ArtOfCode

Answer: probably, because it's not open/free

curiousdannii

1

A: Is there a demarcation problem for religions?

Humans love to categorise things, and we normally think of categories as dividing things up with borders between the categories. But that isn't actually how we normally do conceptualise our categories - instead we categorise things according to their likeness to archetypes or prototypes, the cent...

Mnementh

@ArtOfCode: That's one possible stance, as it is still freely redistributable and part of the CC-movement it might be considered by others as on-topic

curiousdannii

We have no doubt whatsoever about the archetypal scope of our site, only the difficult edge cases, which will always be the case

> This leaves some things that are harder to classify, but that always happens when you classify according to prototypes rather than borders. There's a trade off: prototypical classifications are easy to define but it's harder to classify the cases which fall between prototypes, whereas border classification systems are hard to define, but it's easy to classify things once you have come up with a definition.

We can't and shouldn't expect to settle all the border disputes during private beta, just to demonstrate that our central archetypal scope is stable

Mnementh

12:44 PM

If that is the case, why for example the close votes for the Wikipedia-question (as off-topic), because Wikipedia clearly follows the idea of open source

curiousdannii

And I think we're doing that perfectly well!

@Mnementh Which question?

Mnementh

4

Q: How can I trust Wikipedia, if everyone can change it?

If everyone can change the Wikipedia, can it be trusted? Do any studies exists that show it is less trustworthy than classical encyclopedias?

collaboration wikipedia

8

Q: Should questions pertaining to open knowledge be in scope

Recently, How can I trust Wikipedia, if everyone can change it? was asked. I feel questions like this pertaining to open knowledge should be in the scope of this site (even if it isn't necessarily now). Should open knowledge questions be in scope for this site?

discussion scope open-knowledge

curiousdannii

@Mnementh Yeah I really don't understand why that would get closed as off-topic. Too opinion based maybe, but not off-topic.,

Mnementh

As I see here, most people are preferring the inclusive variant, it is less understandable why there is so much oppsition to broadening the definition as Zizouz suggested in the OPenInfo proposal

curiousdannii

@Mnementh I didn't think he was proposing any broadening of scope, just a bad (IMO) name

Mnementh

12:49 PM

@curiousdannii He probably shouldn't have put both in the same post

curiousdannii

@Mnementh It still doesn't seem like much of a scope change to me

From our perspective there's no difference between a CC licensed painting and a CC licensed database

If he was proposing any change, it would be to specify the types of works in the on-topic description, which would be a mistake

The type of work doesn't matter, only its licensing

Zizouz212

1:50 PM

Hey, I'm back :)

ArtOfCode

2:04 PM

Afternoon :)

Zizouz212

How's life?

ArtOfCode

Not bad :)

Writing software again

Zizouz212

That's always nice :)

Zizouz212

5:07 PM

@curiousdannii @Mnementh I disagree. They needed to be in the same post: The objective of that post was to make a single solution to the neutrality issues that the site is facing, and we're facing the results - We've had three highly respected users of the site have their accounts deleted. The title wasn't likely the best, but it addressed all the issues that we had, and a common solution to them.

Saying that the scope isn't defined is incorrect, most questions that I see as on hold are closed, for too many reasons. I was proposing a drastic change - It would change all the logistics that we had e.g. Site name, advertising, scope, domain names. The idea that I had in that post was to create a baseline on which to continue our site on, because our current system isn't working.

I tried to do all the work - the new scope boundaries, a new name, example questions to help us get started, but I got no feedback that was solid and clear, just a whole bunch of votes, agrees and disagrees. I doubt the community is settled with what we have right now. When you say the type of work doesn't matter, only its licensing, then your essentially saying that we don't need two of the three points that made this site in the first place.

I'm not trying to say "look at me! I'm the right one here", but rather let's work together and figure this entire thing out

2

Q: Make the site about Open Information!

Note: I understand this is very long, but be sure to read and understanding everything in this post. Alright! Day 6 into the beta, and we're about to introduce a new addition to the scope! The issue of neutrality has been big since the definition phase of this site. Conflicts and arguments ove...

discussion feature-request scope site-promotion neutrality

ArtOfCode

5:26 PM

@Zizouz212 Who was that? I haven't seen that...

Zizouz212

What do you mean who?

ArtOfCode

19 mins ago, by Zizouz212

@curiousdannii @Mnementh I disagree. They needed to be in the same post: The objective of that post was to make a single solution to the neutrality issues that the site is facing, and we're facing the results - We've had three highly respected users of the site have their accounts deleted. The title wasn't likely the best, but it addressed all the issues that we had, and a common solution to them.

Three highly respected users?

Zizouz212

Bikeshed guy (Carpetsmoker), Tichodroma, and another one who I don't remember off the top of my head

trichoplax

When you say "have their accounts deleted" does that mean the deletions were not voluntary? Or do you just mean they have chosen to leave?

ArtOfCode

Likely they chose to leave

Zizouz212

5:29 PM

The deletions were likely voluntary, they posted tons of questions and answers on both main and meta

ArtOfCode

@All: Our current scope is stable. Maybe not optimal, but it's stable. I think we should leave it like it is until next week, when we can get the CM's in to help.

michaelpri

Has anyone opened the Pro Tem nomination post yet?

ArtOfCode

@michaelpri We're still in private, so no

Though there has been much discussion about whether we should or not

Mod's opinion on the matter?

michaelpri

@ArtOfCode I've seen nomination posts opened in private beta. Health got their mods immediately after we entered public.

ArtOfCode

@michaelpri Thanks

Zizouz212

5:34 PM

Well, there was a post, I'll get the link to it

michaelpri

Should I open one?

ArtOfCode

In that case, guys, I also think we need to open the mod-nomination post. We're going to need mods soon.

@michaelpri There was one, but yes I think a new one would be good.

michaelpri

Alright, I'll get it ready right now

Zizouz212

Well, the post is deleted, not sure if you'll be able to view it...

michaelpri

Can anyone send me a screenshot?

Zizouz212

5:36 PM

Sure, just give me a second...

The post I think was a copy off from the blog, but here's the comments:

ArtOfCode

Pretty much a copy, yeah. Then again, it doesn't really need to be much more

Zizouz212

Meh, i'm tired....

ArtOfCode

What's the time for you? like 11 in the morning?

Zizouz212

Like, 1 in the afternoon... I'm awake, but I feel out of energy

And of course, what do I do? I come here... :)

ArtOfCode

Standard time-wasting strategy. I've been on here for several hours...

Zizouz212

5:48 PM

And you're not tired?

ArtOfCode

Nope

For some reason

It's 18:49

Evening for you

Yep

Done

Who should nominate this site?

:D

I believe that's everybody...

michaelpri

5:51 PM

I AM STUPID!!!!

0

Q: Who should moderate this site?

Ideally Moderators are elected by the community, but until this site reaches a critical mass to hold an election, we will be appointing some provisional Moderators to fill that role. We need your help. Please nominate some folks you might like to see become the provisional moderators for this si...

discussion moderation

Fixed

ArtOfCode

Nominate... xD

@Zizouz212 You going?

michaelpri

@ArtOfCode I already said I was stupid :P

Zizouz212

I just need to write something, but I think I have to think it through first

I'm still a little concerned of that age thing...

michaelpri

Just requested for it to be featured

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 If you don't say anything, nobody'll notice. If I didn't know I'd put you about 10 years older.

Zizouz212

5:54 PM

I don't know...

I feel like people should know, but then I feel like I'll get criticized over it

michaelpri

@Zizouz212 I'm only 14

Zizouz212

Oh god, fine

I'm 15 so...

michaelpri

There's a pretty good amount of young moderators

ArtOfCode

@michaelpri FFS I'm just bad at guessing age aren't I?

@Zizouz212 Guess my age.

michaelpri

@ArtOfCode How old did you think I was?

Zizouz212

5:56 PM

Well, didn't you say that you were in university or something?

ArtOfCode

@michaelpri like 20 something

michaelpri

@ArtOfCode Hmm

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Did I? I'm not, whatever I said xD

michaelpri

@ArtOfCode I would guess 18

Zizouz212

I don't know, either that, or it sounds like you are, so i would've guess about 20

ArtOfCode

5:58 PM

Heh. 17.

michaelpri

Ahh, so close

ArtOfCode

Moral of the story: if you act mature, it's hard to guess age on the Internet.

ProgramFOX

@ArtOfCode Why do you say 25 here then? :P

Zizouz212

Like this?

ArtOfCode

@ProgramFOX I do that all over the Net, it's a mark from younger days when I probably shouldn't have violated COPPA.

ProgramFOX

5:59 PM

Ah, I see.

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Exactly like you've been acting right the way through this beta.

Zizouz212

On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

"On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog" is an adage which began as a cartoon caption by Peter Steiner and published by The New Yorker on July 5, 1993. The cartoon features two dogs: one sitting on a chair in front of a computer, speaking the caption to a second dog sitting on the floor. As of 2011, the panel was the most reproduced cartoon from The New Yorker, and Steiner has earned over US $50,000 from its reprinting. == History == Peter Steiner, a cartoonist and contributor to The New Yorker since 1979, said the cartoon initially did not get a lot of attention, but later took on a life of...

And in my email, I think I'm like 30 or something... :P

michaelpri

@Zizouz212 Age doesn't usually matter for moderating if you act mature. I'll admit that I've seen some people say stuff about me being a moderator on Health (granted I did make a few mistakes saying stuff earlier in the site's beta), but it's never been an actual problem

ArtOfCode

meta.opensource.stackexchange.com/a/291/98 is my shot

ProgramFOX

People hardly get my age right either. I'm 15, but someone recently sent me an email asking to join a job position, based on my contributions on GitHub. They probably thought I was a lot older.

ArtOfCode

6:02 PM

@michaelpri I've had a number of those off Careers, despite saying 'I am currently a student'

Zizouz212

Oh don't worry, my dad sent one of my school reports to someone for some reason, and the guy wanted an interview with me...

ArtOfCode

@TrevorClarke - mod-nominations are up if you want a go

michaelpri

@ProgramFOX You're only 15?! I would've guessed like 18 or 19

Zizouz212

Oh my god...

Youngsters are invading!

ratchet freak

@ArtOfCode they are probably hoping you go intern and flow through into a job

ArtOfCode

6:03 PM

So true

I bet if you did an age study of Stack Exchange you'd get some pretty surprising results

Also a gender study

ratchet freak

any one up for digging into data.SE then? (for the visible data at least)

Zizouz212

Well there:

0

A: Who should moderate this site?

Zizouz212 My Meta Profile! I’m Zizouz212, and I would love to be a moderator pro tempore for this site. Coming from Toronto, I’m an enthusiastic young man who is eager about open source in his creative works as well as software. I usually check on at random points on a typical day between 07:...

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 You could replace those links with flair

@ratchetfreak SQL? God no.

Zizouz212

Yeah, I saw yours and realized :)

ProgramFOX

@ratchetfreak There is a query around that shows the highest-rep users below a specific age... let me know if I can find it back.

ArtOfCode

6:07 PM

@Zizouz212 Might also be worth adding your SE overall profile

Zizouz212

Erm... That might be an embarrassment...

ProgramFOX

Ah, here: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/58346/…

michaelpri

@ProgramFOX It's say I'm 15

ProgramFOX

@michaelpri Yeah, it appears to be one year off. Don't know why though.

ArtOfCode

4154 rep? More that 99% of people on SE. You've already outdone most other people by simply participating

Zizouz212

6:09 PM

It says I'm 16!

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 meta.opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/290/…

Zizouz212

Okay, thanks :)

Wasn't sure where I stumbled upon it

Meta Data

2

Q: Who should moderate this site?

Ideally Moderators are elected by the community, but until this site reaches a critical mass to hold an election, we will be appointing some provisional Moderators to fill that role. We need your help. Please nominate some folks you might like to see become the provisional moderators for this si...

discussion moderation

ArtOfCode

A Note to All: Go and vote on the Moderator Nominations.

^ I've pinned that instead of the raw URL because it's clearer

Zizouz212

Smart :)

ArtOfCode

6:18 PM

Ooohh. @Zizouz212 The first to get the Convention badge by approximately 7 hours...

Zizouz212

:)

I can add to that, second to get Civic Duty, and just one post away from Strunk & White :)

ArtOfCode

Shhhh

ArtOfCode

7:03 PM

@TrevorClarke I assume you're back from your holidays, or whatever they were?

trichoplax

He said he was going for 1 week on 27th June so I'm guessing he's back yesterday or today

ArtOfCode

Cool, we won't need to post his nomination for him then, he can do it when he's back :)

trichoplax

Wow my quote in the starboard still hasn't died

ArtOfCode

@trichoplax It has from what I see...

Zizouz212

I'm back :)

ArtOfCode

7:17 PM

@Zizouz212 Evening :)

Zizouz212

Afternoon :D

ArtOfCode

Oh time zones.

trichoplax

@ArtOfCode I see 6 quotes - I guess it depends on screen resolution

ArtOfCode

@trichoplax That'll be it - I see 5

What's your screen px height?

trichoplax

768

but I have no open programs bar

ArtOfCode

7:21 PM

Strange... I'm also on 768, with 1366 width

And no toolbar

Ah that's also it

quotes?

on the starboard

lol, I see 10 :)

7:21 PM

I've butchered my screen real estate so I can currently see 6

@Zizouz212 Wow what's your resolution??

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Jess. What are you on, screen-wise?

Zizouz212

I think it's like 1440 x 900 or something :)

ArtOfCode

900 isn't bad...

On F11 I'm seeing 7

trichoplax

Me too

ArtOfCode

Even without the taskbar but no F11 I still see 5

Dimensions are strange

trichoplax

7:23 PM

I'm due a new screen - my current one is hanging on by one hinge...

ArtOfCode

That's probably not good

My 'top has survived a surprising amount of stuff

trichoplax

I'm in Firefox so I don't have a top bar to the window - the tabs are all pushed up to where the title bar would have been

ArtOfCode

I'm in Chrome, where the same is true

Zizouz212

Safari :)

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 ...

trichoplax

7:25 PM

The only other thing I can think of is that there's a list of other rooms you're in - a few rooms on there pushes things off the bottom of the starboard

Zizouz212

or...

SAFAWEE!

ArtOfCode

@trichoplax Have a genius medal

trichoplax

lol

ArtOfCode

No, they're a thing now

trichoplax

Yay! Unimportant mystery solved!

ArtOfCode

7:27 PM

They became a thing in Chatbot Dev where people kept solving impenetrable issues

(and unimportant mysteries, but that's unimportant)

@Zizouz212 What's this about a proposed SE site for urban planning? It doesn't appear to be on A51.

Zizouz212

I proposed it, but I don't know anyone to share it with, and it never got any followers...

ArtOfCode

So it got deleted?

Zizouz212

I think I deleted it myself after a couple weeks...

ArtOfCode

Go propose it again :) I'm in

Zizouz212

Alright. Sure :)

Should I put it under Culture or Professional?

ArtOfCode

7:37 PM

Professional probably, what's the list of categories?

Zizouz212

Arts, Business, Culture, Life, Professional, Recreation, Science and Technology

ArtOfCode

Ooh. Hard. Technology is possible but probably wouldn't fit. There's some science to it but not enough really. Professional is the best fit I think.

Zizouz212

That's what I was thinking too. Putting it there :D

How's this?

For officials involved with planning of cities and towns, as well as transport networks and green spaces.

ArtOfCode

Don't make it solely for officials. You also want experts, enthusiasts, etc

Zizouz212

enthusiasts in there? Normally, you want to get the experts first, but I'll add the experts part in there :)

ArtOfCode

7:43 PM

Hang on, let me find some good descriptions

Zizouz212

Sure :)

ArtOfCode

"For those involved with or interested in" might cut it

Zizouz212

Is this better?

For officials and experts involved with the planning and structure of cities and towns, transport networks, green spaces and infrastructure, and those interested in urban environments.

ArtOfCode

Better, yes, but I think your last clause adds some scope which seems to be only for the interested people.

Does having it at the front not work?

Zizouz212

What about this then?

For officials and experts involved with urban environments, particularly the planning and structure of cities and towns, transport networks, green spaces and infrastructure.

ArtOfCode

7:46 PM

Works for me.

I suppose it can be edited?

Zizouz212

Going ahead :D

And yes, I'm pretty sure you can edit it

1

Urban Planning

Proposed Q&A site for officials and experts involved with urban environments, particularly the planning and structure of cities and towns, transport networks, green spaces and infrastructure.

Currently in definition.

ArtOfCode

Good, now to post that everywhere I can.

Zizouz212

Yep :D

And then think of questions as well :D

ArtOfCode

There's one

Zizouz212

I've never heard of or seen that before...

ArtOfCode

7:56 PM

You wouldn't, given you're in Canada, but Google it.

Zizouz212

It looks... interesting

ArtOfCode

I have no idea how people don't die on that thing more often.

Zizouz212

So there's not a lot of accidents?

ArtOfCode

No, surprisingly. I haven't looked up the stats, but it's fairly low.

Zizouz212

That's... impressive!

ArtOfCode

7:58 PM

I also don't know why they didn't just use a regular roundabout.

Zizouz212

Does it get a lot of traffic?

ArtOfCode

A fair amount actually:

That's low traffic

It gets a lot higher in rush hour

ratchet freak

key is the large amount of lanes

a normal roundabout has only 1 lane

trichoplax

So that's how roundabouts reproduce

ratchet freak

which can take maybe 1200 vehicles an hour

even the double lane roundabouts aren't that much better, only 30% of traffic uses the inner lane

trichoplax

8:04 PM

The pictured one has an anticlockwise central roundabout surrounded by clockwise orbital roundabouts. That in itself sounds like asking for trouble

ratchet freak

as long as there is good signalling it should work out

ArtOfCode

@ratchetfreak There are no traffic lights anywhere on that entire roundabout...

and @trichoplax you see now why I'm surprised at the low death count

ratchet freak

South branch has lights for the fire department

trichoplax

The world needs robot drivers

ArtOfCode

@ratchetfreak It does?

ratchet freak

8:09 PM

@ArtOfCode google.be/maps/@51.562436,-1.771412,3a,75y,193.07h,81.92t/…

ArtOfCode

I think that's more intended as a pedestrian crossing, but there are indeed lights there

There are on the other entrances too, it seems.

Just no lights within the system

ratchet freak

doesn't need them

as long as everyone respect the priorities

ArtOfCode

Yeah, in a perfect world...

ratchet freak

and a roundabout with traffic lights will just get you laughed at

ArtOfCode

@ratchetfreak I see a lot of roundabouts with traffic lights on them

Motorway junction roundabouts often have them

trichoplax

8:12 PM

I've seen worse: a roundabout with a zebra crossing on every exit and entrance

ArtOfCode

Ouch

ratchet freak

@trichoplax that's not horrible

if the foot traffic is low

trichoplax

It's near the city centre

I just think the idea of stopping traffic as it leaves the roundabout makes no sense

ratchet freak

traffic lights can put a lot more traffic through if designed properly

trichoplax

I think roundabouts in 3d work well

Flyovers and unders

ratchet freak

8:15 PM

if you have the space for them

trichoplax

yes good point

ArtOfCode

Here's a roundabout with traffic lights

ratchet freak

in an ideal world there would be no need for crossing traffic at all

@ArtOfCode that's large enough that lights are warranted

I mean smaller things

Mnementh

LOL

trichoplax

In a decade or two all cars will self drive and traffic control will be of historical interest only

Mnementh

8:17 PM

People really are discussing that the question about legal weight of open source licenses is unclear?

ArtOfCode

@Mnementh Enjoying the random discussion?

Mnementh

While I already had answered and I thought really I understood the question

ratchet freak

like the size of this one google.be/maps/@51.152512,4.974503,3a,75y,62.33h,70.84t/…

Mnementh

6 people are agreeing that what I wrote is indeed an answer to this unclear question

0

Q: Looking for a legally-strong open source license

Most licenses available do not seem to carry any legal weight. Are there any Open Source licenses that do? The old copyright laws used to impose a monetary fine for infringement, but then how do the newer licenses deal with infringement? What resources do I have available if the terms of the "new...

licensing law enforcement

@ArtOfCode I can add random

I asked about a book I'm currently reading over at SF&F - and an answerer just took the question to the author

That's like cheating :-)

3

A: Is Dharia a matriarchy?

Update: I spoke to my new friend Susan Kaye Quinn a little earlier and posed her this question. She was kind enough to provide some additional detail about Dharian political life; in short, Dharia practices a form of female-preference primogeniture. If a female heir is born, they take precedence ...