The Bikeshed

3:08 PM

apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/us/terms.html#APPS

search for LICENSED APPLICATION END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT

> a. Scope of License: This license granted to you for the Licensed Application by Licensor is limited to a nontransferable license to use the Licensed Application on any ...

in other words buying a app in the store is never getting a open source license

Martijn

As an aside, is there a way way can disallow describing licenses with epithets? If there is, is that desirable? It's bothering me a fair amount that the GPL is semi-regularly described as viral on this site

Zizouz212

@Martijn How so?

ratchet freak

one could also call it cancerous

Martijn

you could

you could also call it evil

or satanic

or whatever you like

Zizouz212

But not viral?

Martijn

3:19 PM

but I'd prefer it if we disallow describing licenses with such terms on this site

Zizouz212

I'm not sure about disallowing, but we can discourage it

Martijn

it's not conductive to an impartial and inpassionate dissemination of questions

I don't think we can actually discourage anything

Zizouz212

How would we disallow it?

Martijn

I don't know, that's what I'm asking :D

How could we discourage it?

ratchet freak

by calling out those that do

Zizouz212

3:21 PM

I wouldn't know either.

Martijn

good find in the TOS btw @ratchetfreak

Zizouz212

@ratchetfreak Nice find :)

ratchet freak

unless there's a soul selling clause that passage would be the primary restriction on gpl compatibility

Martijn

it's probably in the part with the white 1px font

Zizouz212

Thoughts?

0

A: Is the Mozilla Public License compatible with Apple's App Store?

If the copyright of the application is entirely yours, then you do have the option to use the GPL, somewhat contrary to the answer by Martijn. As you release something, you still maintain complete ownership of the copyright. The license that one uses on their application is simply a way of sayin...

Martijn

3:29 PM

looking good

Zizouz212

:)

Martijn

I'm really happy with that question. It's a licensing question, which is what we do best (unfortunately?), but it's of practical and widespread use

and it's not just geeking out in theory

Zizouz212

@Martijn And it's an actual question too! If only you could add bounties to questions...

ratchet freak

and the answers are backed up by research (and diving into the apple TOS caps fest)

Zizouz212

They should have something where you can split bounties...

Martijn

3:35 PM

bounties are intended to attract new answers; a bounty for an existing answer is a bit of an oddity

I understand that they don't want to put development into something that was a sort of unintended use case of the feature in the first place

related: blog.stackexchange.com/2011/06/optimizing-for-pearls-not-sand

Zizouz212

@Martijn Bounties for existing answers are awesome!

ratchet freak

an upvote should be enough...

Martijn

a good answer should be enough

Amelia

Bounties for existing answers are for things that are insanely good

Zizouz212

Hi @Amelia :)

You need to come more often

Martijn

3:37 PM

thanks for the awesome question, it's really the kind of questions we could use more of :D

Amelia

@Zizouz212 you need to reinstall everything on your machine more often :p

Zizouz212

lol

I'm running a virus scan... Estimated time remaining: 4 hours

Amelia

Don't change your passwords until afterwards

Zizouz212

I only changed my email password, and maybe all my other passwords... Darn it -_-

ratchet freak

or change them again afterwards

Amelia

3:39 PM

Add 2-factor auth on everything, too

but only afterwards

torels

@overactor ok :)

Martijn

grumleit's 2015 and we're still expected to remember passwords like a bunch of cavemengrumble

Zizouz212

Will do :)

Amelia

ideally you could use a second machine for this while the other one is out of comission

Zizouz212

Out of curiosity, what app are you making?

Amelia

3:40 PM

In fact, I've done that once before

ratchet freak

you should also airgap the infected machine and reformat the entire disk and restore from (verified) backup

Zizouz212

air gap? Do I need to go to some wind tunnel place :P

Amelia

Well... I'm teeechnically asking on behalf of someone else, who has had some interesting times with Apple re: copyright/licensing before

ratchet freak

disconnect from networks

Amelia

But it was too good a question to not post :p

And the app in question can be found on my profile page (the second project)

It's being open-sourced pretty soon

Zizouz212

3:42 PM

Yaay :D

Martijn

"asking for a friend"

yeah, right :P

Amelia

@Martijn: technically ex-employer

Zizouz212

@Amelia You're mod on Freelancing, right?

Amelia

@Zizouz212 yes

Zizouz212

You'll be seeing me more often there :)

Amelia

3:44 PM

Oh?

ArtOfCode

@Amelia looks at profile - mind blank about what page of the various info it's on

Amelia

@ArtOfCode osu.ppy.sh

Zizouz212

@Amelia It's on the list of sites I need to get active on :)

Amelia

Massive is an understatement for that community

ArtOfCode

Also, noting this: your avatar on the main site looks like a Professor Layton character.

Amelia

3:45 PM

Kyouko?

ArtOfCode

OK, correction: a possible character

Zizouz212

Professor Layton? Kyouko? Wats?

ArtOfCode

I haven't seen one exactly like her, but it's that kind of style

Amelia

One of the anime mods has the same name as my avatar's character (Toushinou Kyouko)

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 The former a game, the latter Amelia's avatar

Zizouz212

3:46 PM

I saw that. What happened with that?

Amelia

I keep going into their chat and confusing the heck out of everyone

ArtOfCode

Aaannd I just saw the stats on that homepage.

Zizouz212

I seriously need to see that :)

ArtOfCode

7 million users?

ratchet freak

@ArtOfCode with an average of 500 ranked plays

Amelia

3:47 PM

@ArtOfCode + an extra 18 million bot accounts that have been deleted, but you get the picture

Zizouz212

Wows

ArtOfCode

@Amelia Some of us dream of getting accounts, let alone bots :)

Zizouz212

There's a new bot!!!

nicerobot, United States

101 1

Or wait, it doesn't look like it...

Martijn

so, osu! is free software?

ArtOfCode

Looks like a person to me

Zizouz212

3:48 PM

@Martijn You mean libre?

Amelia

@Martijn open-source is Soon(tm)

Martijn

ah, ok

Amelia

The new site is AGPL - github.com/ppy/osu-web

ratchet freak

soon™

Zizouz212

Ah, php :/

@ArtOfCode Didn't you ask me to learn php one time?

Amelia

3:51 PM

@Zizouz212 do you feel the language of the devil burning into your soul?

Zizouz212

Yep, I'm a python person :)

Martijn

nice

ArtOfCode

@Amelia I started writing a SE clone in PHP :)

Amelia

@ArtOfCode did you give up after 6-8 weeks?

ArtOfCode

@Amelia days, more like. It's hard. I might do some more on it at some point, though.

Martijn

3:52 PM

opinion PHP is the language of the devil, and will attempt to (and most likely succeed to) eat your soul

@ArtOfCode it's a reference to the top answer of meta.stackexchange.com/questions/19478/the-many-memes-of-meta I believe

Amelia

@Martijn the "cure" for that opinion is to write a website in VB.NET

Zizouz212

Cherrypy!

ArtOfCode

@Martijn Aye.

Martijn

@Amelia unpopularopinion VB.NET has horrible syntax, but as a language, it's no better or worse than C#; it's almost identical

ArtOfCode

@Martijn Aye.

@Martijn actually valid opinion

It's the syntax that breaks it

Zizouz212

3:55 PM

363

Q: What's your most controversial programming opinion?

This is definitely subjective, but I'd like to try to avoid it becoming argumentative. I think it could be an interesting question if people treat it appropriately. The idea for this question came from the comment thread from my answer to the "What are five things you hate about your favorite la...

language-agnostic

Amelia

@Martijn all the hate around PHP comes from really old (10+ years old) versions of it

Martijn

in some cases, I prefer VBs syntax. But not many.

Amelia

The next release is PHP7, and it's about 6-7x faster and has way better type-safety that you can opt into.

Martijn

@Amelia this is somewhat true. Right now the "old" criticisms are no longer all that valid. That said, the programming world evolved to the point where an imperative/OOP language like PHP, even with the older warts removed, is still pretty behind the times

Amelia

@Martijn I absolutely adore C#, but I can still get shit done faster in PHP than I'll ever be able to in .NET/C#

Martijn

3:57 PM

still slower than HHVM though

Amelia

@Martijn: nope, actually faster in some cases

ArtOfCode

@Amelia I'm similar. I adore C#, and I'm good at it. PHP is my choice for backends in websites.

ratchet freak

@Martijn made worse in that php is (forced) single thread

Zizouz212

:23861884 Talking fast? Look at Python:

print "Hello There!"

vs...

Amelia

JIT compiler and pthreads help, and support for async is on the way

ratchet freak

3:58 PM

echo "hello there"

Zizouz212

System.out.println("Hello There!");

Amelia

@Zizouz212: here is a perfectly valid php program

Hello World

:p

Zizouz212

Alright, I take that back :)

ArtOfCode

@Amelia reminds me of some answers I saw on CR's hello world question in PHP...

Amelia

@ratchetfreak you can actually thread php scripts, but it's hilarious and I'm pretty sure doesn't work in the latest versions

ArtOfCode

4:00 PM

System.Console.Write("Hello world!") is the longest of them all

Martijn

anotheropinion sending a string to some output without specifying an encoding is always a bug

Amelia

@ArtOfCode is that a challenge?

ArtOfCode

@Amelia Nope. Of those we've discussed :)

@Martijn How's default encoding for you?

Amelia

I can make a program > 10MB to print hello world. condition: the entire programs focus is to print out hello world

Zizouz212

Encoding? Ugh.

Martijn

4:02 PM

it's a fact of life Ziz

Amelia

@Martijn there are standards for PHP now, and everything is UTF-8

Zizouz212

I hate dealing with encoding. Why would someone make encoding when there is unicode!

Martijn

it sucks, but you need to have some idea how that entire dance with strings, encodings etc. works

ratchet freak

@Zizouz212 UTF8 UTF16 or UTF32?

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Unicode is more of a character system than an encoding...

Amelia

4:03 PM

@Zizouz212 quoth the person who doesn't know how strings work

Zizouz212

More reason to hate encoding...

Martijn

Unicode is an odd standard

it's too big IMO

ArtOfCode

It is good for all those random characters you want to put in, though.

Martijn

it both deals with categorising and assigning characters, and with what text is and how it works

Amelia

@Martijn why on earth do you think encodings were made in the first place? To make a smaller subset of letters for stuff. and look where that got us!

Martijn

4:04 PM

and they're pretty separate subjects

Zizouz212

@Amelia You've got a hot network question with 34 points :)

Martijn

@Amelia I have a fairly good understanding of the history and use of encodings and what text data is, and how it relates to strings :)

that doesn't mean I can't think that the situation we currently find ourselves in sucks

:D

Amelia

@Zizouz212 I need a picture of a tractor, with upvotes behind it

Zizouz212

Sure.

ArtOfCode

@Amelia Um?

Zizouz212

4:06 PM

Oh my god! Google looks so ugly!

I can't stand even looking now...

Martijn

poor Ziz

will never use google again

another soul lost to Bing!

ratchet freak

@Zizouz212 that dot is the grouping separator it's actually 34k hotness ponits

@Zizouz212 503

Lies

4:15 PM

@Ziz try TL again

Zizouz212

What? I don't have my diamond back...

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Do it anyway

Zizouz212

You broke TL?

ArtOfCode

Not at all

You can write, too.

Amelia

@ArtOfCode did you do that?

Zizouz212

4:17 PM

Isn't that like, illegal?

ArtOfCode

@Amelia Ja, I forget that ACLs on chatrooms are a thing.

Amelia

Also: you shouldn't be having a conversation about this in public

ArtOfCode

You're still in all technicality a mod. If anyone objects, I'll remove you.

@Amelia No? People know of TL's existence..?

Meta Data

4:58 PM

2

Q: How frequently should I say "I am not a lawyer"?

I have seen people add "I am not a lawyer" and similar disclaimers on this and other stacks. Personally, I wouldn't take legal advice from someone unless they said "I am a lawyer (and my hourly fee is ...)". I am not a lawyer, but I recently cited some license text to back up a statement I made ...

discussion

Air

5:18 PM

Guh. I keep finding gaps in Atom's SQL syntax recognition (no with? really?) but I go look at the repo and just don't know where to start digging into the implementation.

Is the fear that your patch will turn out to be stupid and broken a common obstacle to actually starting to contribute to OSS projects, among people with actual formal training? Or is it just us lifelong amateurs? Anecdotes, please.

Mnementh

too much talk here to read it all back

Martijn

I didn't even know atom had a standardized query format

Mnementh

did I miss something important?

Martijn

talk is good Mnementh

no

well, yes

there is a really good question up

other than that, no

Zizouz212

@Mnementh Yes, you did

Martijn

5:29 PM

no drama - only fun :D

Mnementh

which question?

Zizouz212

@Martijn that's an understatement.

Martijn

7

Q: Is the Mozilla Public License compatible with Apple's App Store?

I'm planning on open-sourcing an application soon, and I've settled on either GPLv3 or the Mozilla Public License 2.0, as this application has a massive community surrounding it, and I still want other people to have to disclose source code for modified versions. The application is a standalone ...

licensing license-compatibility distribution

Mnementh

Yes, I saw that on the site, and I can say... no idea :-)

Zizouz212

We got Mnementh!!!

Martijn

5:30 PM

@Air for me (as a perpetual amateur) it definitely is. I am giddy if a pull request is accepted, and nervous while it's up

and somewhat dejected if it's rejected

Air

@Martijn talking about syntax highlighting

Martijn

oh, that atom

Mnementh

@Zizouz212 Ah, I see someone else who dislikes Googles new logo.

Martijn

I thought you meant the syndication standard

hence my confusion :D

Zizouz212

@Mnementh It's ugly!

ArtOfCode

5:34 PM

@Zizouz212 Let's make that a trio.

Zizouz212

Sure :)

Air

@Martijn I was nervous just submitting a PR to correct what seemed like a fairly straightforward Markdown error in a recent SE blog post =/

Martijn

A good maintainer will put you at ease in the pull request, etc

Air

@Martijn I wonder if there's a question on FLOSSLCOPTR already about how to be a "good" maintainer in that sense

Zizouz212

xD

Martijn

5:38 PM

I'm so ridiculously proud of github.com/scala/scala/pull/4514 , even if the maintainers spent more time on the PR than if they'd fixed it themselves, and the question was fairly trivial

@Air I suppose that is part of the "how do I get contributors" question

Air

@Martijn I don't speak scala, per se, but that looks pretty nice

Martijn

And having my name in the release notes (even if nobody ever reads it) makes me all kinds of giddy :D

ArtOfCode

Ugh. Maintaining websites for people who don't care about you but want everything done perfectly yesterday, without the proper accesses, is not a fun task.

Martijn

the real "work" in the patch was figuring out what the Java stdlib implementation did exactly

especially since the edgecases I documented on the scala method aren't documented in Java (but do behave the same)

Air

what the heck is private def escape(ch: Char): String = "\\Q" + ch + "\\E"

Are those control chars or something?

Martijn

5:48 PM

those are regex escape chars

to form a litteral

a lesser known way of escaping (I didn't know it either before I jumped into this)

Air

Oh, wow, I was scratching my head looking at the cheat sheet above my monitor and finally found it "buried" right in the dead center of the page

Martijn

if you speak Java, that's private String escape(Char ch) { return "\\Q" + ch + "\\E"; }

or Character

or whatever it's called in Java

Air

Yeah, it's clear enough, I just wasn't familiar with \Q or \E

ArtOfCode

Also, it would appear this has been edited in order to try to bring it under site guides. Cast your votes, should you think it wise.

-2

Q: Open source bank. Can it be done?

I was wondering if there could be any open source bank or credit card service. With open source I mean a decentralized and community driven. So members have a choice on what plans are offered, what to invest on, exchange fees, interest etc. There is open source banking software (https://www.open...

community

Air

I wasn't even expecting regex syntax from looking at the code

Martijn

5:52 PM

I somewhat have a problem with statements like "With open source I mean a decentralized and community driven"

I mean, I could also ask "How long should I grill a steak to make it open source? With open source, I mean cooked medium rare"

6

Mnementh

@Air regexp-quoting

Air

3 mins ago, by Air

Oh, wow, I was scratching my head looking at the cheat sheet above my monitor and finally found it "buried" right in the dead center of the page

Martijn

@Air you shouldn't. It's a quirk of Java that string.split takes a regex

Mnementh

@Martijn Open Source isn't well understood

@Air ah, didn't realize what you meant with that

Martijn

no, and I suppose different people can mean different things with open source

but we all agree that "cooked medium rare" is not a definition of "open source" as we would consider on topic on this site

and fore me "decentralized and community driven" isn't either

Air

5:56 PM

I'm not sure I see a point to using these regex literal sequence delimiters around individual chars (as in the code you removed)

ArtOfCode

@Martijn I take offence to this; I regularly cook my steaks to an open source recipe, which is obviously completely on-topic for this site.

Martijn

@Air there isn't really, though it's the easiest way to escape a single character

Air

In my day, we used backslashes and we liked it

Martijn

which is what my patch does

mainly to land on the fastpath of the Java implementation

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode It should still take be closed. It's asking for an external resource.

ArtOfCode

5:58 PM

@Zizouz212 I know ;)

Air

Yeah, your path seems much clearer

Zizouz212

Well, I voted "leave closed" in the queue :)

Air

is the inconsistency in the groupings on lines 205-207 purposeful?

I'd expect comparison operators to take precedence over logical operators

Martijn

no

make a pull request :D

Air

HA. And then, I'll put on my resume how I patched Scala 20 minutes after I first laid eyes on it

ratchet freak

6:01 PM

@Martijn or Pattern.quote(String s)

Air

All thanks to Flossing Libretto Saucechange

ratchet freak

you should also escape any hidden \\E in the original string

Martijn

@ratchetfreak there is no original string, there is only one character

so \\E can't occur in the original string

@Air <= has higher precedence than &&, so it's not broken. But it is ugly.

also, I don't think there is a && method on Char

Mnementh

@Martijn I agree, there is a definition for free softare and one for open source and a clear way to adopt these to other fields. No need to start define some random thing as 'what I mean with Open source'

Martijn

well, open science seems to mostly be gratis access, and it's part of the umbrella. And open data mostly just means access.

(disclaimer, I'm not really involved in any of those, and that might be wildly inaccurate, but only represents my current understanding of them)

and open government means, eh

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean

Air

6:11 PM

"Don't do what Hillary does"

Martijn

that :D

Air

That's probably a cheap shot, but hey, I'll take it

Martijn

#gefiltefishgate

Mnementh

@Martijn well, these have differents se, don't they?

Martijn

at least some of them. I'm still somewhat undecided on whether they should be on topic here

and I'm not sure if the community at large here has consensus whether those are on topic here

Mnementh

6:15 PM

open government is just some fancy word for digital access to bureacracy (or so i understand it)

Air

I hear it and think general transparency concerns

Mnementh

@Martijn Open Source Stack Exchange is a question & answer site about a group of related movements which encourage people to give up some of the rights given to them by copyright law, by using licenses which give others the freedom to use and transform their creative works

Martijn

it sure sounds like it is ethically better than closed government though

Air

Like, there is a website that publishes the earnings of all employees of the State of California

Martijn

I guess that's the important part

Air

6:16 PM

So if you want to know how much money I make, just find out my name :)

Mnementh

so i would say open science is not on topic if it is only about free access

Martijn

@Mnementh fair enough

Air

(Unfortunately, that means anyone I interview with can find it out as well, so much for not answering the "what's your salary" question if I look for another job)

Mnementh

open data is more complicated, it often includes databases under free licenses, which i would see on topic

ArtOfCode

@Air Challenge accepted.

What's the website?

Air

6:22 PM

@ArtOfCode transparentcalifornia.com

ArtOfCode

@Air $30,---.--. Apparently.

Martijn

@Mnementh the tricky part is that in the US and many other countries, it's plain old datasets, since datasets aren't eligible for copyright protection. In the EU there are protections for datasets, both sui generis rights and copyright

that makes it not "purely" a licensing issue

it might be on topic here, I don't know, but it's very specialized knowledge

Air

@ArtOfCode Ah, so they don't give much detail.

(Let's not disclose an exact number that can be used to retrieve my PII, please)

Martijn

considering your PII needs to be used to get to it in the first place, and that's apparently readily found, I don't think that's a grave concern

Air

@Martijn $5 says he peeked at my email address, which you can't do

And no, it's not a grave concern, but there's no reason to dangle it like low-hanging fruit

ArtOfCode

6:44 PM

@Air Whoops, sorry, lack of thinking. They give more detail than that - I quoted the total figure. URL is transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search?q=Your+Name

Air

Yeah, I meant they don't show time base, start/end dates, etc. They just give annual numbers and one job title per year (presumably the one you had at the end of the year).

ArtOfCode

@Air Ah yeah, no more detail than that

Air

I guess it's not surprising the top earners are athletic coaches and medical professors.

ArtOfCode

Probably not, really

Zizouz212

7:07 PM

Ugh, that feeling when a user makes a nonsense answer to a question with a bounty.

Air

Hmm. Feels a lot like my finger clicking a mouse button and my eyes watching a representation of an integer being decremented.

Zizouz212

lol

-1

A: Why does this JPython loop fail after a single run?

Your question is answered here Multiple Jython environments in single JVM PythonInterpreter uses PySystemState, which is a singleton. As suggested there you could use different ClassLoaders to safely instantiate several PythonInterpreter with their own PySystemState.