I need to read in both directions to understand it

@Seggan by this do you mean, like, concatenate them all together?

because I'm like 99% sure that wouldn't work

@Ginger no

what do you mean then

but treat them as the same file

dont physically concat and parse or whatever

@mousetail see: python

although i do like both ways

@Seggan I still don't get it

just parse the files and resolve the symbols into the same module

but what if a file tries to use a symbol that it hasn't imported?

if I treat the whole thing as one file I wouldn't be able to detect that

check the other files in the same module

what?

well if it tries to do that, doesnt the programmer want to use a symbol in the same module, but not the same file?

ohhhhhh

I keep forgetting that Java can do that lol

so, I actually don't really like that feature

because it means that you can just use a symbol from out of nowhere without giving any indication of where it came from besides "it's in this module"

LDQ: Should files in a module be able to access other symbols in their module without explicitly importing them?

@Ginger well then just import thisModule and deal with it normally

@Seggan I'm confused

do you mean like I as the programmer should do that?

well what other option is there

that still makes it optional

and it shouldn't be optional, it should be required

i never said its optional

if I do the "treat all files as one file" thing, that makes the "implicit imports of everything else" thing unavoidable, does it not?

well dont treat them as one file then

thats what i meant by this

okay, and we're back to square one: how do I handle imports of other files in the same module?

that'd be a circular import, no?

it'd be importing itself, which would cause the recursive algorithm to recurse forever

@Ginger not if you temp exclude this file

okay, what about if one of the other imported files needs something that's in the file being processed right now? that'd be an error I guess

but it'd be unavoidable too

have you checked how existing langs do it

if every other file has to be loaded first then no file can depend on anything that it doesn't itself contain

@Seggan no, because they never explain it :p

and ain't no way I'm reading 2000 lines of C to figure it out myself

ask on cs.se

ask on PLDI

@hyper-neutrino If I go to vyxapedia.hyper-neutrino.xyz/elements , Ctrl-F "Print", and then click on the first instance of the word, it's a 404: vyxapedia.hyper-neutrino.xyz/elements/%2C

ah yes, ,

okay

I have decided to basically do the thing Java does, including the implicit imports, because it's the simplest option

@Ginger I'm happy to explain how tinylisp 2 handles circular imports, but IDK if it'd be very pertinent to what you're doing

@pxeger using is weird

Usually you use imperative verbs not present tense ones

use, do, let, import, etc.

It makes sense because using doesn't do anything

It's just a assertion on the environment

Yeah it does, it says to use the definition of a thing from elsewhere

No, the other things is used no matter if you add a "using" or not

All it does is say you assume it's in scope

use isn't a descriptive statement about what you're using, it's a command says which thing for the compiler/interpreter to use in certain places

No it's a descriptive statement, you can use the thing without a using statement

You just need to type the full path

No you can't

Exactly

You literally can

You need to say which to full path to...*use*

Not which you are using

You are using things from that path

But you aren't unless you specify that, and it's not being specified

Unlike for example "import" which would actually run the module

Using doesn't do anything

^

It does tho. It disambiguates which of a thing you're using.

also i wanted using so i can say continue using

That's a declaration, not a action

You're reassigning something to a different name. That is an action

but thats not how it works

That's like arguing let isn't an action and should be letting

^^

@mousetail In what sense is a declaration not an action?

you are saying that "the symbols from path are available in this file"

The state is the same before and after

fn is also a declaration

@Seggan That's not what use does

while def from python is a action

@RydwolfPrograms thats what it does in rol :P

Same in rust

No, in Rust it doesn't specify where to find the thing in the filesystem whatsoever

It just tells the compiler "I am using this name as a shorthand for this full name"

Would you call type a "declaration" too? How far does it go?

Yep

That's a declartion

See this:

And a declaration..._is an action_

I am telling the compiler something

No

?

Telling the compiler something is not a action

Okay, telling it to do something

use doesn't do anything

Then delete it and see if your code runs

it does something or it wouldn't exist

You just need to change the code a little and it does the same thing

binary is exactly the same

You're just drawing a meaningless distinction between things that are one thing and things that are a different thing

@RydwolfPrograms but it doesnt do anything during runtime

@mousetail That's true of all sorts of things

You criticized the word

@RydwolfPrograms Most of those things are declarations, not actions

Plenty of let statements can be optimized out. Should let be letting?

Let is a declaration

not a action

So you agree it should be letting?

no because the assignment that comes afterwards is a action

let does something at runtime, using doesnt

let x; is a bit odd grammar but let x = 5 makes sense

and it does do something at runtime

So...you're drawing a distinction between "let" and "the thing that comes after it"?

it's both a declaration and a action I guess

I mean if you do that every keyword is a "declaration" about what comes after it

@mousetail This whole declaration vs. action dichotomy is pointless

Yes

But it's why use is use

and that makes 100% sense

@Seggan Does it tho? Your code doesn't actually "let" anything equal anything. Your code at runtime doesn't contain any variables

let is both a declaration and a action, Seggan is right

@RydwolfPrograms but it does. it possibly changes (depending on optimizations) some memory/registers during runtime

@mousetail The whole point of this argument is use vs. using and I'm arguing for use. If you also think it should be use, why are we even discussing this?

IDK

I like use because it's shorter, not because it's correct

use is an imperative; it implies the compiler is doing something. An action.

It doesn't do anything

Declaring something necessarily causes the compiler to do something

No

Otherwise it would be useless

the IL is exactly the same

But the compiler still does something

No

Wtf are you on about, yes, it does something differently depending on whether the use exists or not

It doesn't do anything

If I delete a use and change nothing else, the code does not work

You need to use absolute paths

That's not doing anything

Thus, the use changes something. And it's not changing me, and it's not changing the rest of the world, it's changing how the compiler understands the code

It doesn't change the code at all

@mousetail But what if I don't?

The use is necessary, right?

The compiler doesn't care

It sure does, because otherwise, it errors

Yes but the exact same way as with the use

No? If the use exists it no longer errors

Not if the thing you referenced doesn't exist

Assume it does

That's not what we're talking about here

Then both with and wihout use it works

No it doesn't, because without use, it doesn't know which io is which

is it std::io? or tokio::io?

it uses the exact same import logic

just you need to pass the correct path

but that's not doing anything

which is different

AND WHAT IF I FUCKING DON'T

The use changes things

that doesn't count as an action

because the compiler does nothing

It does though, because everything is an action

and the program does nothing

no it's not

To do is to act. They are synonyms.

it's just being

not acting

But the compiler has to do in order for the library to be

that's like saying a string in a config file is an action

of course it's not

@RydwolfPrograms are text based macros the compiler doing something? bc this is technically what use does

...

@RydwolfPrograms must've been quite the headache :p

why tf is Edge asking if I want to translate chat from Vietnamese

that'd be why

i couldnt resist the chance to make a pun play on words :P

the convo was the other way around, but this title is nicer lol

(I still had arguments left but school WiFi went out)

(That was a rather dumb argument so probably a good thing; I think it just came down to a different view of what counts as an "action" and given the immense vagueness of the word I don't think doing so much makes sense)

LDQ preferred prompt for a REPL?

I like ones that show some information

I like Crosshatch's prompt

@RydwolfPrograms What kind of informationg would be useful?

Depends a lot on the language I think

E.g., in one language I was working on that was heavily built around asynchronous stuff, it'd display the number of awaits waiting in the background

There's not much async stuff. It's a very high level semi-declarative language designed to read like english.

think inform 7

Make the prompt change to "yikes" whenever you start typing something syntactically questionable :p

And "based" if you use recursion or other cool stuff

lol that would be great

ChatGPT integration: the prompt changes to its response to "Is this code well-written?"

Also be sure to consider how the prompt will look with multi-line pastes

That's actually a big priority, since the language is intended for beginners they'll be asking questions lots so it would be helpful it it had some debugging info for when they ask me stuff

But what can I fit in 7 characters

return value of the last expression?

That would be printed separately above the prompt

oh, right

That'd already be right above it

Thanks chat

I actually considered that too for a moment before realizing it didn't make sense

Maybe a hash of some internal state, so you could quickly notice if someone's running some code in a different context from what's expected?

E.g., if you're teaching a group of people all at once

that should be a debugging command

Intriguing idea

maybe have it change to catch common errors, like [Did you mean print?] >>> pribt(

like clippy

Note the language is intended for quick prototyping for people with less experience, not for teaching absolute beginners. It's probably too high level for that

Think gerkin

@UnrelatedString tinylisp 2 is interpreted, so importing a file is basically equivalent to executing it. The interpreter keeps a list of the files that have been imported so far, and if you import a file that's on the list, it doesn't do it again. Since 95% of what's in the libraries is function definitions, whose bodies aren't evaluated until they're actually called, it doesn't really matter which definition gets executed first, and so everything just works.

ah, neat

that is pretty elegant

that's cool, but doesn't work for me because ✨static typing✨

Yeah, I figured it wouldn't

@mousetail >>> normally, ... for continuation lines

@mousetail definitely be careful it's not too much--ghci showing every single imported library in the prompt gets old fast

Yea I'm intending to not go over 10 characters

@DLosc yeah honestly you can't go wrong with that

Although I somewhat like the idea of [1], [2], etc. so you can reference specific lines by number. Even better if you can access the return value of a line by number.

the three-characters-then-space is nice for keeping the "feel" of a four-space indent if you end up using those within the repl

oh yeah that's smart too

again, Crosshatch's prompt is nice:

Also rant about python where there is no prompt for line continuation causing your lines to be misaligned which is a terrible choice for a language where indentation is important

yeah it would be nice if the python repl auto-indented when it prompts for a continuation line lol

@mousetail ?

Python 3.9.7 (tags/v3.9.7:1016ef3, Aug 30 2021, 20:19:38) [MSC v.1929 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> print(
... "hello"
... "world"
... )
helloworld
>>>

@Ginger I don't think it changing live is a good idea

hmm, wait

0 <= `hello`
0 => 'hello'
[1] vyxal>

that's what Crosshatch's prompt looks like

What is

I see three prompts lol

Is [1] vyxal> the prompt?

the bottom is the prompt, the top is what the prompt turns into when you press enter, and the middle is the result of the expression

here's a color screenshot:

Ah I see

I don't think the color adds much clarity :p

@DLosc I distinctly remember not having it sometimes but testing now shows it does work. Might have been some broken shell or something

@mousetail IDLE doesn't:

>>> print(
	"hello"
	"world"
	)
helloworld
>>>

Oh that might have been it

also IDLE uses tabs for indentation >:P

rSNBATWPL used (rsnbatwpl) as the prompt which worked fine and was nice and simple

@DLosc with a tab stop of 8, no less >8P

That emoticon makes me feel new emotions

Mostly confusion and fear

Good, good

those are new emotions for you??

When mixed in these specific proportions yes

Well I just tried to do the when-you-can't-scream emoticon and got :¤ so I guess we're kissing now

:Ø

There

@RydwolfPrograms tinylisp uses tl> and tinylisp 2 uses tl2>

careless_whisper.wav

the best prompt line is just nothing. embrace simplicity

And Pip uses >> and .. which I forgot that I only used 2 instead of 3. Guess that's because it's a golflang.

As long as it's between 1 and 6 dots

me on my way to make a language whose REPL prompt line is 7 dots just to spite rydwolf

@hyper-neutrino "Why do you need a prompt to tell you to type something? You've got a cursor, don't you?"

precisely

A quality REPL just overwrites /bin/sh

I was going to upload a gif of the prompt to make it a bit clearer what happens but it's not working so instead I'll tell you to download Crosshatch and try it out yourself :p

Currently rewriting SOCK² in Rust because the Node one participates in a little jank from time to time

Both Firefox and Chrome's JS console prompts use images instead of characters, but Firefox's prompt looks like » (← for results), while Chrome's looks like > (<· for results). Neither of them has a continuation symbol.

@RydwolfPrograms sock2?

@hyper-neutrino terminals go brr

@RydwolfPrograms "you don't need sh, we have sh at home"

CMC code-trolling Reverse a array in JS in the worst possible way

what have you done

function f(a) {
	b = a.map((_, i) => a[i])
	while (true) {
		x = Math.floor(Math.random() * b.length)
		y = Math.floor(Math.random() * b.length)
		if (x - y) { k = b[x]; b[x] = b[y]; b[y] = k }
		if (a.every((x, i) => a[i] == b[b.length - i - 1])) return b
	}
}

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

BURN IT

@hyper-neutrino -1 This isn't the worst possible way; you could make it less efficient by removing the if (x - y) check /s

Though I like how all your temporary variables are globals ;P

technically speaking I believe the if (x - y) is actually worse because for larger numbers it's an almost entirely unnecessary check and for smaller numbers it runs more often thus preventing branch prediction from working

@DLosc also yes :P

@hyper-neutrino Ooh, interesting

But actually, how about if (x < y) instead?

...not using var/let makes the variable global?

not sure if that's actually true though, but if it is, even better because it looks like it adds efficiency

@Ginger Just JavaScript things, don't worry about it :P

@DLosc hm, that would be nice as well, even more branch prediction fails and it takes more iterations thus running the O(N) check even more times!

AAAAAAAA

WHY

THAT'S MY NEW LEAST FAVORITE JS FEATURE

It is one of the JS features ever, yes.

@hyper-neutrino Oh hey, I just noticed the ==

yep

also the lack of semicolons :P

i could've used a cursed bracket style but I decided not to overdo it and make it at least readable and have just the content be cringe

also the lack of useful variable names :P

Hmm, even if you use === there's still a bug: if you try to reverse an array that contains NaN, it infinite-loops because NaN === NaN is false.

JS is like a path through a swamp that doesn't have guardrails and isn't always marked very clearly. If you step off the path by accident, you might be fine, or you might be swallowed by quicksand. But as long as you stay on the path, you're good!

(Well, there are some guardrails, but you have to explicitly ask for them.)

Isn’t Object.something() used for that?

Object.is(), yes

and TIL it works correctly with NaN

JS is becoming sane, the world's end is near

Wait TIL /s is shorthand for </sarcasm>

I mean I knew the s was for sarcasm, but the / part

@RydwolfPrograms what

ain't no way this originated on tiktok

Who said anything about tiktok lol

No? those tags originated on like forums or something years before tiktok

could've sworn that's the source for that

And tone indicators have been around wayyy longer than tiktok

my source for this is a chat message posted last year by lyxal or smth

r/circlejerk has its own tags, /uj and something, for </unjerk> and whatever the other one is

Wikipedia's first citation for tone indicators is 2003

huh

TIL

I came up with my own Ω(n²) sorting alg that I don't think has been described before

template<class Iter>
void worseSelectionSort(Iter start, Iter end) {
    while (start != end) {
        std::make_heap(start, end, std::greater<>{});
        ++start;
    }
}

is this swift

C++

ok thank god

Swift doesn't have template or ::

When you see template all over the place you know you're in C++ land and should immediately turn around

if that were a modern language I would've been very sad

...what does template do

It's C++'s equivalent to generics

yup that's exactly as cursed as I expected

It is different from modern langs' generics in a few ways though

SFINAE and specialization

...what

template<class T>
void print(T val = 5) {
    std::cout << val;
}

SFINAE: the default argument can be used when T is an integer type, but doesn't cause an error in other cases. You can still say print("Hello") because you're not using the default argument as a string

template<class T>
void iDontLikeIntegers() {}

template<>
void iDontLikeIntegers<int>() {
  static_assert(false, "I said I don't like integers!");
}

specialization: because all templates are resolved at compile time, you can do things like this

source?

My first text-based programming language was C++

The original is in a cenote in like Kansas or Oklahoma

@Bbrk24 my condolences