The Nineteenth Byte

12:04 AM

@Neil Don't worry, even other sports fans' programs are being changed by sports - the cricket highlights are now at midnight instead of 7pm :/

@mathcat Should I be sad I wasn't included in this? :P

thejonymyster

you might have been included

it depends on what "some professional challeng-er" compresses and almost decompresses to

user

12:38 AM

@Zionmyceliaadamancy ah, to coordinate with the crickets? /p

Zion mycelia adamancy

@user We don't have crickets here, we have grasshoppers :P

OldSandboxPosts

1:00 AM

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Implement Binary Exponentiation

Aiden Chow

1:10 AM

^ any feedback on that

Steffan

2:02 AM

@AidenChow lgtm

also, any feedback on this? idk, maybe it's a bit boring

Aiden Chow

i feel like my binary exponentiation q might be boring to do

Steffan

the thing is, sometimes they don't get votes in sandbox, but they do great in main

to me, yours sounds much more interesting than mine :P

I'm just really bad at thinking of good challenges

Aiden Chow

or the opposite would happen, bunch of upvotes in sandbox but barely any in main

@Steffan me too lol

emanresu A

I'm really good at thinking of bad challenges

Aiden Chow

i only have like 6 challenges posted

Steffan

2:08 AM

I only have 3 lol

I can't even really think of bad ones

Aiden Chow

same

Steffan

And if I do think of one, it's usally a bad one.

Aiden Chow

any more feedback before i post?

New Posts

0

Q: Implement Binary Exponentiation

Background In programming, there is a recursive algorithm called binary exponentiation, which allows for large integer powers to be calculated in a faster way. Given a non-zero base \$x\$ and a non-negative exponent \$n\$, the algorithm goes something like this (based on the example code from Wik...

Aiden Chow

2:36 AM

bro some guy on the desmos discord literally just did codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/249439/…

like thats actually insane

emanresu A

madlad

Aiden Chow

guy doesnt know how to golf it tho, and idk what the guys code is doing :|

emanresu A

You can do basic golfing stuff right?

Can you send me the graph?

Aiden Chow

yeah i can do basic golfing stuff

@emanresuA desmos.com/calculator/aei4dlbu0i

takes a while to load

can u understand it at all, cuz i sure dont

emanresu A

I have AD running in the background so I'm not gonna try

Aiden Chow

2:45 AM

@emanresuA lol ye me too

Aiden Chow

3:04 AM

@emanresuA why u want to remove trailing 1?

Do we have to return the trailing 1? — emanresu A 19 mins ago

Aiden Chow

3:26 AM

given a list of even length, how do i make a dictionary from the list like so: [key, value, key, value...]. in python

Unrelated String

3:36 AM

lot of ways to do it but if you're asking for the shortest... that's a very good question

Steffan

@AidenChow won't say this is the shortest, but: dict(zip(*[iter(a)]*2))

Unrelated String

...whoa

that's fucked

nice

Aiden Chow

what does iter do anyways

Steffan

convert list to generator

Unrelated String

makes a stateful iterator over an iterable

Steffan

3:40 AM

see this tip: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/184881/92689

Unrelated String

so [iter(a)]*2 is a list of two of the same stateful iterator

Steffan

and the SO question linked

@UnrelatedString exactly

so zip goes [(next(a), next(a)), (next(a), next(a)), ...]

Unrelated String

and zip(*[iter(a)]*2) then uses that same iterator as both arguments to dict, and yeah that

er

as both arguments to zip

Steffan

yes

zip(iter(a),iter(a)) will not work, becaues it's two separate iterators. ofc you could do zip(x:=iter(a),x)

Unrelated String

because dict doesn't zip itself lmao

Aiden Chow

3:45 AM

oh nice, thats like super concise

the one time shallow copy is useful lmao

PyGamer0

4:09 AM

@Steffan are you talking about wslg?

no that doesnt work for me

(wow that rhymes)

PyGamer0

4:22 AM

> GitHub Copilot works so well because it steals open-source code and strips credit

i guess thats very true..

well i give credit

PyGamer0

5:53 AM

CMP: Are there any single byte atoms that you miss in Jelly?

i had some good ideas for elements.. but i fogor lol

thejonymyster

6:05 AM

i dont even know all of the ones that are in jelly

PyGamer0

github.com/DennisMitchell/jellylanguage/wiki/Atoms#

pxeger

6:28 AM

I just made a git commit with the hash fbbbbfbb

PyGamer0

6:42 AM

feedback? github.com/PyGamer0/flax/blob/revamp-elements/wishlist.md

i think i got most important stuff there

pxeger

power set?

thejonymyster

@PyGamer0 maybe also nand? :P

or honestly xnor would be more useful if you were only open to adding one more :P

wait tahts equal -_- i keep forgotting

dont listen to me then i am only wrong : - )

emanresu A

7:15 AM

@AidenChow Reasons

ais523

@PyGamer0 I think most golfing languages would benefit from an "are all the elements of this list equal?" builtin that returns the element if they are equal, but it's hard to add to Jelly because it's unclear what you'd return if they aren't all equal – an empty list, perhaps

so, e.g., applied to [2,2,2,2] it returns 2, but to [2,2,2,3] it returns []

also, a builtin for "function that maps these inputs to these outputs" would be very useful, but it needs a payload to specify which function, which in Jelly means adding a new sort of quote I guess

(I have something like six answers explaining how the construction works)

probably this would be a dyad, left argument is the function input, right argument is the function codomain

find-and-replace of substrings (rather than individual letters/elements) is also unreasonably difficult in Jelly, unless there's some way to do it with y

and y seems to also be single elements only

"select elements from list y that have the same indexes as elements that are truthy in list x" is useful and might be worth a single byte, but probably you could get away with it as a two-byter

(incidentally, with the standard int→list behaviour, this does the same thing as ḣ on integers, but might not be able to replace ḣ because it doesn't vectorise)

emanresu A

7:36 AM

I don't have any feature requests for Vyxal because they've all been added

ais523

I've also considered adding finite field builtins because they're so helpful for writing decompressors (which are often helpful in code golf), if you pick an appropriate representation for the finite fields they generalize well enough that they might be worth a single byte?

but maybe a bit specific

emanresu A

@ais523 Although we might add this, it could be useful

I feel like you could add a large amount of different string terminators to Jelly and it would still be competitive

Unrelated String

@ais523 on that note maybe also some kind of... there's something dyadic this reminds me of that i know i've wanted several times but i can't remember what

ais523

my current plans for short finite field calculations in Jelly involve implementing a special case of ṃ when the right argument is an integer (this isn't useful in Jelly at the moment, I think?), giving a 1-byte representation for æc, and adding new a two-byte dyad for finite field inverse, but it probably isn't worth it

Unrelated String

i think return 0 if left and right are equal else return left?

ais523

7:40 AM

Brachylog has an "assert rectangular and transpose" which is very useful there, but Jelly's bad at handling assertions, and last time I needed it I managed to make do with z

there are some things that come up repeatedly in code-golf challenges but feel more like library functions than builtins, such as flood fill and solving simultaneous equations/inequalities over the integer (Brachylog has builtins for the latter)

when you have a "solve these equations" task in Jelly, the normal solution is to calculate a number that's definitely larger than the solution, then brute-force all possible values from 0 to your calculated number until you find one that solves the equation

but this is inefficient (= hard to test that your program works), and often costs extra bytes both for the iteration and for the calculation of the solution

ooh, I know what would be a useful builtin, but very hard to implement – a nilad that returns "a sufficiently large number"

you would need a very complex static (or maybe dynamic) analysis to work out what number would definitely be large enough (defined as "choosing a larger number here wouldn't change the output of the program"), but it'd save bytes for quite a lot of problems

…do we seriously not have a "find and replace" challenge on main? I can't find one

we have lots of variations but I can't find the simple version

ah, here we go, it's on -4

(and IIRC there's some rule that challenges at or below -4 don't show up in various question lists?)

emanresu A

Vyxal has builtins for equations, but those use symbolic algebra for some reason

Nov 11, 2021 at 4:34, by lyxal

CMQ: What should a math-related digraph do on strings?

Nov 11, 2021 at 4:43, by DLosc

@lyxal Symbolic algebra /s

ais523

7:55 AM

my answer to that CMQ is "golfing languages shouldn't have a string or character type, a string should be a codepoint list"

Jelly loses bytes and 1-byte-builtin space to O and Ọ for no reason at all

there can be some potential benefit to having a string type if you have lots of overloads that act differently for strings to lists-of-integers, but I suspect the downsides of that outweigh the benefit

(note that for sites like anagol, you'll still need a little encoding space dedicated to specifying output formats; CGCC doesn't need that due to the flexible I/O, but an ideal golfing language would work on more than one site)

emanresu A

@ais523 Jelly has many codepage slots that yet aren't taken. I don't think it matters.

Unrelated String

i feel like having them distinct wins; there's not a ton of math that ends up useful on something that's conceptually a character, and for the math that does end up useful on characters then you can overload it for that

ais523

most builtins aren't math-related though

Unrelated String

@emanresuA if you want codepoints in a particular program you still have to use those

emanresu A

Up to a point, more datatypes = more overload space = more power. I'd argue that a regexp type could be quite useful

ais523

8:00 AM

one really big gain from merging string and list-of-integer types is with nilads

you can't overload a nilad based on its input, and if you have two separate output types you need two separate nilads

emanresu A

A few days ago we were discussing having only homogenous lists or similar

(and maybe tuple types)

ais523

e.g. “…‘ and “…” in Jelly are conceptually the same nilad, but one returns a codepoint list and one returns a string

emanresu A

It almost never matters whether you're using base-254 or base-255 compression though

ais523

programming languages benefit from an easy way to represent a tree structure

@emanresuA huh, I disagree, I've lost bytes to that in most of my longer Jelly answers

emanresu A

Hm okay

pxeger

8:03 AM

if your string is long, the base-254 vs 255 difference will be significant

ais523

a base-250 string is 0.4% longer than a base-256 string representing the same thing

so it costs 1 extra byte for every 232 bytes in the string

pxeger

that's actually a smaller difference than I thought

ais523

but the problem is, that the number of lost bytes is rounded up

I think it's probably better for golfing languages to use length-prefixed rather than terminated strings for this reason; you don't start losing bytes to the need to round up until the string gets long enough that the length prefix costs multiple bytes

emanresu A

Have a hug, pxeger :P

ais523

here we go: a 30-byte answer that would have been 29 bytes if not for the base-250 versus base-256 difference

in hex, that number is 0xF3A686A9D98A41BDA0298B58BE9B1840

pxeger

8:12 AM

@emanresuA thanks lol

ais523

was a bit unlucky it starts with an F, but being near the top of the range to fit in 17 base-256 digits means that it overflows into 18 base-250 digits

…that said, it also overflows in base 255, so it was the choice of delimited strings that cost rather than the number of closing delimiters

PyGamer0

@ais523 cool flax doesnt have strings

@ais523 infinity?

> giving a 1-byte representation for æc

noted

emanresu A

@ais523 I've thought about that many times before . You'd probably want a monad

PyGamer0

@ais523 what is that? does it error if the array isnt rectangular?

@ais523 how about returning the first non equal item?

May 6 at 6:05, by PyGamer0

       1j2i[[0,1,2],[3,2,1]]
>>>
1

^ i love that overload :p

its the best

@ais523 i didnt understand any word of that

Neil

8:43 AM

@ais523 how about "return elements that differ from their predecessor?"

mathcat

10:26 AM

@Steffan wow nice

mathcat

10:48 AM

3 feature requests/bugs:

1. Multiline-Comments dosn't work

2. Skip single-line posts

3. Increase Icon contrast?

PyGamer0

11:08 AM

@ais523 i have no idea what finite fields are lol

pxeger

11:51 AM

@ais523 n^n where n is the input (or its length, for lists) would probably be sufficient for most uses

PyGamer0

12:17 PM

CMP: Should there be a single byte builtin for x**x

CMP: Should ring translate be single bytes?

feedback 2? github.com/PyGamer0/flax/blob/revamp-elements/wishlist.md

mathcat

12:37 PM

Is there an XML feed for new cgcc posts?

pxeger

@mathcat do you mean RSS/Atom? codegolf.stackexchange.com/feeds

mathcat

oh right it was rss

working, thanks

Steffan

1:57 PM

@PyGamer0 No

@PyGamer0 Yes

PyGamer0

ok

currently its a diagraph, i may promote it to a single byte if its useful enough

so as of now in wishlist for single byte builtins we have:

- 12 nilads

- 77 monads

- 68 dyads

- 43 quicks

Steffan

Like in vyxal, ring translate is an overload of multiply

PyGamer0

200 codepage space filled already

Steffan

Use overloading

PyGamer0

2:12 PM

:/ first i should have actual types to overload with

Steffan

number ,string, list

oh you don't have string

PyGamer0

yeah

Steffan

but you still need string builtins

PyGamer0

i have some

Steffan

lowercase, uppercase, swapcase, etc.

split on

well that's a list builtin

PyGamer0

2:15 PM

200 + 13 (digits + signs) + 5 (train separators) + 10 (something i forgot)

228 spaces filled

so 28 spaces should be left which i will reserve for now

Unrelated String

what's the fifth separator

PyGamer0

@Steffan here are planned stuff github.com/PyGamer0/flax/blob/revamp-elements/wishlist.md

Unrelated String

oh is it map-monad

PyGamer0

yeah

should have a filter-monad like caird's fork..

pxeger

CMC: given n, output the length of the concatenation of all numbers 1 to 10**n in decimal. Time complexity must be polynomial in n. (so you can't just generate the string)

Steffan

2:17 PM

you can also overload quicks for monad/dyad

Huh that's an interesting challenge

PyGamer0

@Steffan i have done that

or generalized behaviour

pxeger

I think Jelly could have half as many quicks as it currently has if it overloaded some of them

PyGamer0

is @Zionmyceliaadamancy's fork's behavior for fold and scan when the link is a monad useful in challenges?

cause i can swap it out for scan and fold fixedpoint as k does

pxeger

@PyGamer0 normal Jelly already has quicks for those btw (although they're digraphs)

Unrelated String

@pxeger it's got more dyad-only quicks than monad-only quicks (and a fair number that work just as well for both) but yeah it could definitely stand to gain from overloading

...the wiki claims ' is overloaded but i'm pretty sure that both versions are broken

or maybe ' on monads does technically work but it's almost useless? supposed to suppress vectorization

i know the intent of the quick was for like having <' do lexicographic comparison but on dyads it's just a janky version of þ

i think "spawn" is just what someone decided to call the broken table behavior and it was supposed to suppress vectorization for both monads and dyads

also the notion of "suppressing vectorization" is honestly kind of emblematic of how deeply broken this language is lmao
that relying on dynamically typed python directly under the hood could actually be part of the design
of course there are list builtins where it makes sense, operate on the first axis versus the second or last

Zion mycelia adamancy

2:38 PM

@UnrelatedString Yea, for example U' works

Unrelated String

neat

also bad example considering Ṛ exists but it's the only non-digraph i can think of lmao

Zion mycelia adamancy

@UnrelatedString It's a good example for why ' is practically useless :P

Unrelated String

wait

also not useful since there's <code>;`</code> but yeah

Zion mycelia adamancy

@UnrelatedString ooh, that might actually be useful

;` is kinda clunky tho

Unrelated String

same length and still a monad

PyGamer0

2:41 PM

so should i add a quick which supresses the vectorisation?

holy shit how do i do that

Unrelated String

you don't :P

PyGamer0

my vectorisation isnt handled in the dyadic_link function

in fact i dont have that function lol

Unrelated String

jelly's system is a mess to begin with and even that didn't let it work on dyads

PyGamer0

@UnrelatedString oh ok makes life easy :P

Unrelated String

for anything where that notion makes sense to begin with you can just make a separate digraph

PyGamer0

2:43 PM

well true

@UnrelatedString one problem with my vectorisation is that it can only either fully vectorise or not vectorise at all

i guess letting the dyadic_link do the vectorisation is easy and clean

New Posts

0

Q: Is it an ordinal?

Background (feel free to skip) Ordinals are the abstract representation of well-orders. A well-order of a set is a total order, which basically means that every element in the set can be compared against any other element in the set, and one of them is either smaller or larger. Also there are no ...

code-golf decision-problem ragged-list

PyGamer0

my vectorisation is sad ngl

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Draw the USA flag I noticed that it seems nobody has posted a non-ASCII (related) USA flag challenge yet, so what better time than the 4th of July? The Challenge Draw the current (as of 2022) flag of the United States of America. Here is the flag: Specifications Hoist (height) of the flag: A =...

Unrelated String

3:18 PM

@Zionmyceliaadamancy not ' related, but this inspired me to do something horrible

Wheat Wizard

3:29 PM

Is there some haskell library that exports the fix type level combinator? I can't find one.

Neil

4:17 PM

@Neil Solution: 4Sin[Pi/12#]^2&

Zion mycelia adamancy

4:42 PM

@UnrelatedString Feels like there's some quineing potential here :P

Try it online!

Unrelated String

ahahah

Steffan

6:51 PM

Any feedback?

I feel like it could be a bit boring in golfing languages, but it might be interesting to solve in normal languages

Idk tho

Radvylf Programs

7:28 PM

Looks good, although I'd be worried about dupes

Steffan

I don't think it's a dupe

Well, I'll post and see if people VTC :P

Radvylf Programs

Well I was going to paste a message about how I'm planning on starting on RTO again soon

New Posts

0

Q: Get multi-dimensional indices in a list

Given a matrix of non-negative numbers (of arbitrary dimension) and a number, get all multi-dimensional indices of the number in that list. For example, let's say we have the list [[0,1,0],[1,0,0]] and the number 1. In the first list, we see one 1 at the second index. If we were using one-based i...

code-golf array

mathcat

@RadvylfPrograms nice

Steffan

This is the closest I can find to it.

pxeger

7:37 PM

:61507282 disadvantage of the "paste to send images" userscript

Radvylf Programs

yeah lol

mathcat

wait it isn't working

> Failed to upload image, please try again!

New Posts

9:50 PM

0

Q: Bijective Function (\$\Z \rightarrow \left(\Z \union \Z^{2} \union \Z^{3} \union \ldots \right)\$)

Find a bijective function which maps integers to arbitrarily large tuples of integers. Given the input \$n\$, output the tuple it matches to.

code-golf

user

Looks interesting but it needs fleshing out

Radvylf Programs

10:06 PM

→ 4 messages moved to Off-Topic TNB

Ginger

:|

Radvylf Programs

Apr 21 at 2:41, by Radvylf Programs

Followup announcement: I'm going to be really aggressive about moving off-topic stuff for the next week or so, probably more so than is necessary, but this can be a sort of...practice

Ginger

3 months later:

Radvylf Programs

Well, it turns out aggressively keeping the room on-topic is actually really helpful

Seggan

11:27 PM

I'm back

emanresu A

Didn't even notice you gone

Seggan

Jun 29 at 12:52, by Seggan

also, I'ma be gone till Monday, so don't summon me

emanresu A

/summon seggan

Seggan

Spawned 1 Seggan

emanresu A

Oh no, now there are two of you

Seggan

11:33 PM

wait what

how

emanresu A

I accidentally duplicated you

Seggan

Like that

emanresu A

You can now golf twice as fast

Seggan

Yesss

yasss

NoHaxJustRadvylf

CMQ: Would you use a light terminal theme? Why or why not?

emanresu A

11:38 PM

Nope

user

I have at one point because dark mode hurts my eyes. It looked off, though

Also, if you use a light theme in an IDE/editor, the integrated terminal also gets that theme, so I guess I've been using a light terminal theme nearly every time I've used IntelliJ or VS Code (I recently made my VS Code terminal black, but only so it would fit with my new Powershell and Zsh themes)

Steffan

Definitely not

I need to change my pfp

emanresu A