The Nineteenth Byte

12:50 AM

Documentation for (Pharo) Smalltalk is so absolutely terrible

I'm trying to read from a file, and the example in the File class involves calling some methods directly on a File object, but those methods are actually *class-side*/static and take the id of the file as an input, but I have no idea where to get those ids from automatically :(

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Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Convert codepoint to UTF-9, Implement Unix Timestamp to Daytime

Wezl

1:27 AM

wow I never knew, apparently javascript was released the same year as java

history teacher says national history day projects must be about 20+-year-old topics, so I can't do a project on Ultrarisky

Redwolf Programs

Aw :(

Truly a lot of historical events in its 8h of existence

Wezl

I could finally use primary sources

last year (two years ago because 2020 never happened) I researched wikipedia because teachers keep specifically telling us not to use wikipedia

but I can use Ultrarisky as evidence of javascript's capabilities

if it's open-sourced, naturally

lyxal

@Wezl so do it on APL

because APL is cool

5

Wezl

1:44 AM

the theme is Debate and Diplomacy, so I can make a presentation about index origin and stuff

DLosc

@user Weird coincidence: I just came here to say I absolutely love the intro paragraph of Esolangs's page on Lisp!

Adám

@Wezl I'll help if you need it.

Wezl

you can write the diplomacy section :P

Adám

Relevant

Wezl

perhaps I shouldn't research a topic that I am so biased(/knowledgeable :P) about

Redwolf Programs

1:54 AM

Researching a topic you're already biased and knowledgeable about just means an easy A :p

Adám

Why not? Then you can add an opinion section.

Redwolf Programs

(At least, according to my friend who's turned in the same english essay for the last four years)

DLosc

2:14 AM

CMQ: I have four list operations: head returns the first element of a list; tail returns all elements but the first; last returns the last element. What should I name the operation that returns all elements but the last?

Adám

@DLosc neck

user

@DLosc The entire article is a treat

Bubbler

@DLosc Haskell calls it init. It agrees with all other three names too

DLosc

@Bubbler Ah, perfect!

Adám

@DLosc However, I disagree with your current naming. Should be head for first, behead for all-but-first, tail for last, and curtail for all-but-last.

DLosc

2:18 AM

@Adám I've definitely considered that.

Bubbler

^^ It is J's naming if anyone's wondering

Adám

:-)

Bubbler

Factor: first, rest, last, but-last

Adám

So inconsistent. Why isn't it but-first?

Bubbler

head and tail are reserved for what APL calls take and drop

@Adám Well, I didn't name it :P

Adám

2:21 AM

Gotta love it when the implementation in APL is shorter than the shortest meaningful names: 1∘↑ and 1∘↓ and ¯1∘↑ and ¯1∘↓

user

@Adám Makes sense, but I’d feel a bit queasy writing that in my code

Perhaps body instead of beheD?

Bubbler

Obligatory reference to no A, just CAPS LOCK

user

@DLosc dropRight 1

Adám

@user But the idea is that the remainder after removing X is prefixX.

DLosc

For some reason, I thought I got head and tail from some Lisp dialect, but neither Common Lisp nor Scheme appear to use those names (preferring to stick with the traditional but today meaningless car and cdr).

lyxal

2:26 AM

@DLosc sans-tail

Bubbler

Ocaml has shorter hd and tl, but no equivalent for the other two

Adám

How about a and bc and z and xy?

user

@DLosc Where did Haskell and Scala get head, tail, last, and init from?

DLosc

In Brachylog, it's head, behead, tail, and... knife. Possibly a Three Blind Mice reference, more likely an attempt at shoehorning a mnemonic around the command k

Adám

init really sounds like something entirely different.

user

2:29 AM

head and tail in linux refers to the first few and last few elems iirc

@Adám initial elems (but yeah, sounds like pythons init)

Bubbler

For whatever naming, you eventually get used to it anyway

assuming you don't give up entirely

DLosc

@user Not sure. I think in my CS classes the terms head and tail were always used in that sense when talking about linked lists, though.

Adám

And all these names are so ambiguous. You can't tell from the names head and init what is what.

same with tail vs last.

DLosc

Maybe it should be first, unfirst, last, unlast

Bubbler

In strictly typed langs, you're supposed to (at least partially) figure out what it does by looking at its type

DLosc

2:32 AM

Or non instead of un, since un sort of implies an action

Bubbler

head and init have different type ([a] -> a vs [a] -> [a]) so Haskellers don't have problem differentiating the two

Adám

How about first dropfirst last droplast?

@Bubbler Oh, so they aren't 1∘↑ and ¯1∘↑

Bubbler

head is more like ⊣/ and init is like ¯1∘↓

Adám

I'd say head is ⊃ and tail is ⊃⌽

Bubbler

@Adám s/tail/last

tail is 1∘↓

Adám

2:36 AM

Oof, well, proves my point :-)

Bubbler

Learning names is hard, really

Adám

Learning symbols is much easier.

DLosc

Ehh... the experience varies from person to person, I'd say

Bubbler

@Adám It... doesn't exactly help when you have specific names attached to each symbol (though it would help with building intuition as you go)

Adám

Who has specific names attached to symbols?

Bubbler

2:39 AM

... my English isn't perfect

Adám

?

Bubbler

I mean like, ∊ has at least three names attached to it

epsilon (the symbol), enlist, member-of

Adám

That's the symbol, the monadic function, and the dyadic function. Sure, those are the official names – I think.

But monadic ∊ is "flatten" and dyadic ∊ is "in" or "element of" too.

- is dash/hyphen/bar, negate/negative/invert/opposite-sign/minus, minus/subtract/lessen-by…

Symbols are clear and unambiguous.

Bubbler

But you need to eventually know the official names to be effective, at least IMO

Adám

Huh. Why?

DLosc

2:52 AM

I tend to want to pronounce stuff in my head (or out loud, if there's no one around to look at me funny).

Bubbler

Or it's just my bias from me depending on the official docs too much (and it isn't too helpful when you don't know the official name)

Adám

Oh wow. I don't associate the APL symbols with words until I actively try to.

Bubbler

Also yeah, verbal communication stuff

emanresu A

@pxeger What's match, that doesn't work...

Unrelated String

i forget if it's a 3.10 or a 3.11 thing

emanresu A

3:05 AM

Oh I need to update Python

When you run python3 -v instead of python3 -V

Seriously...

Everything else uses -v...

@pxeger Oh well, you still missed a tab and now it's mostly unreachable

lyxal

Fun thought for the day: putting bread into a toaster makes it toast. Does that mean putting toast into a breader makes it bread?

9

Bubbler

3:29 AM

Any last-minute feedback on river crossing puzzle thingy?

emanresu A

Looks good

Niko

3:44 AM

Sounds good

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