The Nineteenth Byte - 2021-08-03 (page 1 of 4)

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Unrelated String

12:00 AM

oh yeah that

caird coinheringaahing

Jelly, why are you like this?

what would input be considered to be in normal command blocks?

Redwolf Programs

Check the default I/O rules, and meta

@Adám Vyxal, 2 bytes: Ċ↑ (I think)

caird coinheringaahing

I'm actually not sure what the I/O defaults are for Minecraft

Redwolf Programs

12:02 AM

If there's none, I think you have to clarify if it's allowed with the challenge author, right?

caird coinheringaahing

Or ask on meta

Redwolf Programs

I'm pretty sure there's an I/O for Minecraft post, though

Unrelated String

@cairdcoinheringaahing I've got this but it still feels not great

caird coinheringaahing

If the input is yes/no, a lever works

Unrelated String

wait

Redwolf Programs

12:02 AM

You could use a /trigger for a 32-bit int, if you're using commands

Unrelated String

there we go

finally used the nondecreasing guarantee

Redwolf Programs

I suppose you could use a /data modify storage for arrays or NBT tags

Unrelated String

kind of forgot about the run length encode builtin

caird coinheringaahing

I think I've seen /scoreboard be used as input before

Unrelated String

^

12:04 AM

ngl how this ever got 7 upvotes astounds me codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/7543/99035

"encode your data in binary levers"

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing /trigger and /scoreboard are basically the same

/trigger is just a fancier way of doing it, /scoreboard's probably better since it's golfier

ok that entire post is pretty much useless since it was created 6 years ago

Redwolf Programs

Good point

Most of the useful stuff with commands is from 1.12 or 1.15

see, id make a meta post for this server, but i feel like no one would know what it is lol

Unrelated String

you can link to it

12:06 AM

the server ip?

Unrelated String

i have no idea what project flashpoint is but that didn't stop someone from writing like ten answers in its scripting language

flashpoint for codegolf? lol

assuming this isnt against advertising rules: mcdiamondfire.com

if you want to code in it, right click the book in slot 1, and then create a new basic plot

(and then do /code)

@Adám Scala, naïve answer: a=>a.map(x=>x->a.count(x.==))maxBy(_._2)

I 👒 🍜

I hate 📱

No, I hate phones

@UnrelatedString I once saw a video of someone implementing a rudimentary computer in KSP.

Unrelated String

ooh

Redwolf Programs

12:14 AM

You can make somewhat complicated stuff in Mario Maker I think, but there's a limit to the amount of space and items you can have so anything remotely close to TC is almost certainly impossible

in diamondfire i would say it has ample space to be considered tc

so that helps its case

Redwolf Programs

Huh, we don't have a single SMM/SMM2 answer on this site. I might try one later.

adding things might be a start

Redwolf Programs

Something really trivial like adding 4-bit numbers or deciding if a unary number is even or odd shouldn't be too hard

there is such a thing as space bounded Turing machines

12:18 AM

@JoKing those require unbounded numbers though, right?

Redwolf Programs

The problem is that storing information is going to be difficult, so the registers can't be very large at all, and things despawn pretty close to mario, so some really weird stuff would be necessary in order to keep state while moving around to different parts to load them

@Underslash that wouldn't really be bounded though

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms "I'd be able to save 20 bytes if Koopa Troopers didn't keep despawning" :P

Redwolf Programs

Oh yeah, scoring and I/O are going to be tough too

@JoKing oh

hmm

i thought turing machines needed to be at least at some level unbounded

also, how do you assign in lambdas in python?

12:22 AM

space-bounded TM ≠ universal TM

caird coinheringaahing

Anyone here got 10k+ rep on SO and is willing to help me with something?

@Underslash put them in a variable, no?

@lyxal yeah but how

@Underslash you don't

f = lambda args: whatever

12:25 AM

well you can use :=

@lyxal assign in a lambda, not assign to a lambda

caird coinheringaahing

Only in 3.8 or later

@rak1507 thats the one

what is the exact syntax for that?

@rak1507 Oh right I see

caird coinheringaahing

x := expr

@cairdcoinheringaahing @RedwolfPrograms I asked about 05abi1e here a while back and people responded along those lines, I swear!

Prob not in those words, though

12:26 AM

but do you separate by commas?

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS 05AB1E has a legacy version, but I wouldn't consider it a legacy language :P

But something like, that used to be more popular but now it's almost always outgolfed by Jelly and there aren't any active users on CGCC rn

@cairdcoinheringaahing Right, didn't mean the legacy version. I meant along the lines of ^

caird coinheringaahing

Makonede is pretty active with it, so are Kevin and ovs

Well, that's what I was referring to!

caird coinheringaahing

But it's definitely dying off in terms of activity

Not sure I'd call it legacy just yet tho :P

12:34 AM

@Underslash i'm not really sure what you mean by this, but you can't really do complex assignment with :=, like a,b:=1,2

@AviFS 05ab1e is still strong and it still gets quite a few wins (according to Makonede's claims)

@Bubbler ⍥ That's a thing you can dooo?

(The search, I mean)

caird coinheringaahing

"beats all other answers" is something Makonede is fond of including in their answers

It's not something that SE search supports :P

Oh, haha, no wonder

caird coinheringaahing

It's definitely a problem of perception. Essentially every challenge gets a Jelly answer because there are 3 people trying to FGITW it (me, Unrelated, hyper), at least 3 more who just try to answer (xigoi, Jonathan, Lynn) and there's Nick Kennedy who insists that every challenge must have a Jelly answer, no matter how difficult it seems :P

Compared to that, very few languages will look active, simply because they normally only have 3/4 users max

12:44 AM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Also me trying to abuse base conversion in every challenge :P

caird coinheringaahing

@Bubbler Ah yes, how could I forget about you and your bases :P

Really, Jelly has recently seen a weird surge in activity

It even feels like we get more Jelly than Python or JS :P

OldSandboxPosts

1:00 AM

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: How effective is compression?, Two inverse quines

caird coinheringaahing

Here's a fun fact: the site experienced a massive activity boom as a result of the first code trolling question, followed 4 days later by the 2014 new year's question. Dennis joined the site on 29th Dec 2013, so it's very likely that he joined as a result of seeing the code trolling one

1:39 AM

@lyxal That's what I said too, but they just told me burning people's houses is frowned upon

caird coinheringaahing

CMQ: Thoughts on Shog's view of this site?

I kind of agree with what he says in that answer, but whenever I read it, I always sort of disagree with how he describes what this site is for

I guess it always read to me as tho he was saying "This is [the site where all the fun goes to], the rules don't matter there"

This is the place for fun stuff, but we obviously still need rules here

Unregulated fun stuff is what Reddit is for

Even Reddit has moderation, but the mods there are often useless

Low quality posts. Ahh, just an other thing that has to be discussed on an other site - Code Golf Meta. Do you know the average quality of a typical codegolf answer? Most of the answers in that so called "troll" questions have a better quality: they are not code-only answers. — Johannes Kuhn Dec 29 '13 at 0:04

Another reminder of how different we are from SO. This user thinks our answers are low quality because they're mostly code

They're not entirely wrong: explanations are great, but valuing code-trolling answers more than good, clever, abusive code golf answers is weird

caird coinheringaahing

Johannes is one of the older users here:

7.2k 5 24 41

code-golf code-challenge popularity-contest kolmogorov-complexity math string hello-world

lol

Were answers just lower quality back then, then?

caird coinheringaahing

Lots of people didn't bother to put explanations

2 hours later…

4:09 AM

I've realized I have no idea what I'm doing with setting up a server.

that sounds about right

I swear it's related, though! It's an interpreter thing I'm doing

And no, it's not like TIO, but for the purposes of this... yes it is like TIO

Redwolf Programs

I did it the hard way and bought a physical dedicated server

@AviFS I wouldn't have any idea either

That doesn't sound like a terrible idea at this point.

4:10 AM

hence why your statement sounds accurate

Maybe someone can help me with the language though?

Then at least I know what to look up for and find tutorials for

Redwolf Programs

Are you going through DO/AWS/Azure/GCP?

So at this point, I'll pretend that I am setting up TIO

@RedwolfPrograms Not sure what I want, but I have AWS, DO & Netlify set up

AWS & Netlify are free for the amount I think I'll use

But DO supports TIO and I have $100 credit due to the TIO ref link

Redwolf Programs

What part do you need help setting up?

I keep going back and forth between setting up a web server, and a linux server to ssh into

And I'm realizing I don't know the difference

Redwolf Programs

4:13 AM

You want a linux server

I'm skeptical of setting it up through a web server all the way though

Oh, phew! Great!!

That's what I was suppppperrrrr hoping

Great! Awesome! Thanks a bunch!

So I do have that...

Now I just have to access it via my web thing?

Redwolf Programs

You'll want to install a web server onto that linux server probably, my recommendation is nginx

Ah, yeah I was going to ask about that

Since it supports ssh but not https

Thanks, maybe I'm starting to get it then

So the web server is just the software that allows you to interface with a browser easily?

I don't really even get https to be honest

Redwolf Programs

Well no, it's what makes the website work

But I know that ssh and https are two different protocols for communicating info

I think

Redwolf Programs

4:16 AM

SSH is for you to do maintenance

HTTPS is the website itself

@RedwolfPrograms Okay, I guess I don't get it, but wait

I'm hoping I can still use GH pages for the front-end

And just use this for the backend

But it could be an XY problem, so maybe GH pages isn't relevant

Redwolf Programs

Okay, so you'll still want a web server installed, and you can make POST requests to that

It's just been my workflow up until now

Redwolf Programs

But if you have a web server anyway, using GH pages isn't necessary

And I like that it feels very open source

@RedwolfPrograms Right. My image though had somehow been of a webapp on GH pages with an api to send requests to this server

Eg. I can already use tio-api on gh pages to run stuff

Redwolf Programs

4:18 AM

That could work too

I mean, I guess not if there are better ways to do it

Lots of FOSS software does require a server to run

Eg. TIO

But let's stick with the GH pages for now, then

Redwolf Programs

You might have to buy a domain name to put the API on

Is the next step still to set up a webserver?

(nginx)

Redwolf Programs

Most likely, yeah. I don't know what you start off with when you get a cloud server thingy.

Awesome, thanks!

I might be able to figure it out after this

Is there anything basic to tell me after that

Or any keywords for google?

Redwolf Programs

4:21 AM

It really depends on what you're going to want to do with this, what language you're going to use for the back-end, etc.

Oh no, I have to choose a language?

Redwolf Programs

For your API, I mean

I can't just install a bunch of cl interpreters on the server and then call them from JS?

Redwolf Programs

No, that won't work.

I really don't understand this as well as I hoped, haha

But thanks a bunch, I'm already way in a better direction

I can try again with the new info and keep trekking forth

Redwolf Programs

4:24 AM

Are you trying to make an interpreter for a specific language, or a more general online interpreter?

Think TIO for now!

So at this point, I'm just hoping to git clone a bunch of the popular esolang interpreters right now

Redwolf Programs

Uh oh, that's not going to be as simple as you think :p

Oh no!

Redwolf Programs

There's lots of sandboxing stuff you'll need to do, for both security and usability reasons

But I git clone, and then there must be something where I can run stuff via command line

And then send stdin/stdout back

@RedwolfPrograms Oh nooooo

I forgot ; (

There must be an easy way to make a new sandbox with restricted user privileges every time I call a command line function though, no?

Redwolf Programs

4:27 AM

I wouldn't say easy, but it's possible

You'll also want stuff like the ability to terminate infinite loops

Like TIO's timeout

This is getting to be a big project very quickly

I wonder if I can copy some of TIO's code easily for that

Redwolf Programs

I've been wanting to make an online interpreter as well, maybe we could team up on the back-end to save some effort

Maybe rewriting everything in JS was easier...

At that point you should git clone TIO itself and try running it and see what it really does

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, haha

@RedwolfPrograms No way, really?

What's yours for?

Is it different from ATO/TIO?

Redwolf Programs

4:29 AM

Mine's just a general TIO-like site

It'll have some more advanced features though

Oh? Like what!

Redwolf Programs

Like the ability to suggest and add new languages, potentially without me

Yeah, I'd be suppperrrr down to team up on the back-end

Redwolf Programs

That way it's maintainable if I ever stopped working on it

@RedwolfPrograms Ooh, that's a really neat idea

I'm actually hoping to do something similar

I wonder if pxeger will want to join for ATO, or if he's already happy with his model

Redwolf Programs

4:30 AM

Theirs seems to work fine

It's probably easier to stick with a working one than redesign a new one :p

@RedwolfPrograms I also want to abstract away the STDIN/STDOUT thing, and just have "code", "input", and "output"

Right! But stderr is also important since some use that

Redwolf Programs

With TIO, for example, it's sometimes tough to know whether you should use input or arguments

8 hours ago, by Aaron Miller

lol @Ausername I just realized how messy you are :p

Redwolf Programs

@AviFS Well, that'll be a special case :p

I just realised how much I use that phrase.

4:31 AM

@RedwolfPrograms Ah, I see, that's a good point

@Ausername Haha, nice, I'm sure I have a mil of those

DSO's system has dynamic loading, potentially from other sources, so existing languages can be updated without me.

Actually, yeah...

Haha and mil are both in that category

Yeah

Actually, I only have three mils which I find really weird. But almost all the hahas in this room are mine when I'm active, which is pretty impressive

Redwolf Programs

I'm going to integrate RTO with CGCC accounts, so your CGCC rep will unlock privileges on RTO

4:35 AM

Oh yeah, that's such a cool idea!

Redwolf Programs

Like increased max run time (maybe two minutes), and for 10k+ users and moderators, the ability to update and add languages

The other thing I want for mine is to enable seeing the current memory state at any given point

I guess it'll be sort of like abstracting the -d flag

Redwolf Programs

That sounds like it could be really dangerous if you do it wrong

Haha, I don't know about doing it for any complicated langs

I mean just the state of a stack-based lang or bf, for instance

Redwolf Programs

Oh, if you mean modifying their interpreters to show the stack or tape, that's fine. I thought you meant letting users see the actual system memory at will :p

4:36 AM

Oh no, haha

But I mean, it should be easy to see the state on the user-end

And non state-based stuff too, like to see each step of a lambda reduction

Debugging things like that should be abstracted and easy to access

My most complicated lang on DSO is Fishing, and I'm trying to figure out permalinking :p

Oh, that part is super easy!

Not if you want actually small links

window...hash()

or something

@Ausername Oh yeah, I was adding that to tio-api for a while

@RedwolfPrograms What languages are you planning to put on RTO?

4:39 AM

I haven't documented it because I never polished it

Redwolf Programs

The first three languages I add for RTO will almost certainly be JS, Python, and Jelly

It's going to be a general purpose online interpreter

But it uses tio's compression stuff to generate good permalinks

@Ausername If you send me a link to the GH page and tell me what you need in the permalink, I can do that for you rn

DSO's going to be JS / stuff in JS

So including K

@AviFS Ok, una moment

Redwolf Programs

Ah, is it going to be a front-end-only one?

o

@RedwolfPrograms Yeah

4:41 AM

@Ausername Confusion ⍤ Did you mean 'un momento'?

github.com/chunkybanana/do-stuff-online

@Ausername Would it be terrible if I do it within the next 24 hours? By the same time tmrw?

I don't really mind when

It'd just be nice to have

Thanks!

Redwolf Programs

I'm planning on having shortened links for RTO, where the actual code is stored server side so you just have something like rto.run/b/a1h171

That'd be cool, but how much server space do you have?

4:45 AM

0

A: "Hello, World!"

文言 / wenyan‑lang, 55 bytes 吾有一言。曰「「Hello, World!」」。書之。 Try it Online! (Online interpreter/IDE, I don't think there's a way to share code directly but just copy and paste into the editor and press Run) For the "Hello, World!" in Classical Chinese example wenyan-lang themselves give (60 bytes): 吾有...

@Ausername For sure! I'll have it soon!

@RedwolfPrograms So where do we stand on the backend for an interpreter?

Do we want to use TIO's/ATO's or start over?

Redwolf Programs

Start from scratch

Exciting!

Redwolf Programs

I think trying to add modifications onto someone else's codebase/model would probably be more effort than it's worth

I agree.

I think you know more, though, so I'll let you decide all the big and scary stuff

Like what language to use

Redwolf Programs

4:48 AM

I'll do some research tomorrow, and figure out a sort of "game plan" for how it'll work

If python is alright, that might be nice. Otherwise node would be nice for practice. And ruby/rust/go/alt-lang is always fun. Or C++ if we have to!

@RedwolfPrograms Sounds good!

Redwolf Programs

Are you comfortable with JS? I'd probably want to use Node for most of the higher level stuff.

Here's the room

@RedwolfPrograms Yeah JS/Node would be awesome!

Like super duper, actually

I only have a bit of time before I should head to bed

Is there anything I can do re: this front?

Redwolf Programs

Same here, actually :p

Or should I put together A_username's permalink

@RedwolfPrograms I keep forgetting your timezone!

Redwolf Programs

4:53 AM

@AviFS Nothing I can think of!

What is it again? Mine is PST (San Diego, California)

@AviFS If you have something better to do, do that.

Redwolf Programs

I'm in CST, so not too far from you

@RedwolfPrograms Look forward to starting on that tomorrow!

@RedwolfPrograms Nice! Middle of nowhere : P

US or Canada?

Redwolf Programs

US, central Texas

4:54 AM

Ooh, Texas! I didn't realize!

Not far at all then relative to the US

If not, I need input, header, code, footer (all gettable by document.getElementById(element name).value) and language (DSO.activeMode), preferably in a hash (I'm copying TIO's #language/ ##permalink thing)

@Ausername Awesome!

Are any of them going to be arrays?

Or all of them strings?

Redwolf Programs

My approach would probably be to use a JSON-like string representation, then compress and base64 encode it

I have a thing to do all the work in the tio-api you helped me loads with!

Redwolf Programs

TIO uses some weird byte string stuff, but using JSON.stringify(string).slice(1, -1) is a lot easier

4:58 AM

I just haven't documented it

@RedwolfPrograms Ah, true. It's def weird.

But, since I have the library, I may as well use it!

Redwolf Programs

It'd make it easier to migrate from TIO to DSO links, which is a plus

I've been meaning to compare to see how much the byte string stuff actually saves

@RedwolfPrograms Yeah, it looks like they might be the same

@AviFS All strings

Awesome!

One more question:

Do you have any optional things ever?

Eg, TIO has flags sometimes

(Which are stored as an array)

Redwolf Programs

@AviFS It's hard to tell since there's compression, but uncompressed it's maybe a few bytes better than the stringify-and-trim method I mentioned, delimited with "

5:00 AM

Flags is a string, and might be empty, as with everything else.

@Ausername But you didn't mention flags here

So, (input, header, code, footer, flags)

Anything else?

Did I not? Oops. Same as the other stuff, document.getElementById('flags').value.

Alright, it'll be slightly different from TIO's then since TIO encodes flags as an array

Do you want to try and make the permalinks compatible by also doing flags as an array?

Sure - just split the string.

Actually, we can worry about making them match later. I've been meaning to work on the TIO interface anyway

Eg. It actually only takes 'code'

It doesn't take 'header' & 'footer'

Redwolf Programs

5:05 AM

@AviFS That'd break compatibility with existing links though, right?

They're all small changes, but I'm not sure I'm up to debugging changes rn

@RedwolfPrograms No, just that the make_link func should take a json object as a param

And then it should make the link for header+code+footer behind the scenes

Redwolf Programs

No, I mean changing the links to match later on

Oh, true

Yeah, maybe I should make them match now...

I didn't even notice this did slashes upside down

Redwolf Programs

You'll need a dictionary between the language names DSO and TIO uses

5:07 AM

Ouch, I knew I'd regret this, haha

It should be trivial though

I just got tired all of a sudden : P

Redwolf Programs

TIO compatibility might be more trouble than it's worth, depending on how different the interpreters are

But yeah, you won't need the general thing I was hoping to showoff

It won't be too hard to get it to work with TIO

@RedwolfPrograms Sounds like it should be pretty easy with a tad of preprocessing and postprocessing

5:26 AM

Hey @Slate, welcome to 'these here parts' ; )

I hate History and Civics

What brings you 'round?

@PyGamer0 Why?

ok well not history that much

but i hate civics

@Ausername Here I go starting on the permalinks. Wish me luck!

5:29 AM

Break a leg!

5:47 AM

Wait @Ausername

Are you planning to have most of your langs be ones from TIO?

Because if so, there might not be much of a point

No - more esoteric stuff

Like Fishing and eight different dialects of Deadfish.

@Ausername "Not complete & not tested, but should be the gist of it."

Also, might have to go any second, so just in case there's the bulk of it

But will be done by tmrw

Ok

thanks

Does the basic structure of it make sense, though?

6:05 AM

Yep, looks good, thanks!

Sure! Main thing is to not forget to convert flags from string->array in DSO.makeLink()

So it should be:

       makeLink(header, code, footer, input, lang, flags) {
            flagsArr = convertFlags(flags);
            return TIO.makeLink(header, code, footer, input, lang, flagsArr);
        },

Just [...flags] is fine

Ok

thanks!

@Ausername But that'll parse it into chars, I think

That requires it already being in an array

6:31 AM

@AviFS iteration turns strings into lists

of chars

so should be fine

@Ausername Yeah, but it needs to be an array of flags like ["-flag", "--more", "-h", "-v", "--debug"]

It's more that I can rejoin in my code and handle it later

7:15 AM

uuh how do i remove bookmarks in firefox

right click + remove is not working

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Aug '213

The Nineteenth Byte

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