The Nineteenth Byte - 2021-06-12 (page 1 of 4)

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caird coinheringaahing

12:12 AM

@user No we don't

→ messages moved to Secret room we don't tell other users about

I clicked on that and started panicking

But thankfully it was a normal link

Dammit caird, you could've rickrolled lyxal there! :P

caird coinheringaahing

That would've been too easy :P

Hey y'all should go to google translate, and translate His if cow from English to Spanish. Then you should listen to the audio

su si vaca?

12:24 AM

.-.

this joke has never been funny

it is what I classify as Cringe(TM)

@hyper-neutrino What's the joke? (pinging to be annoying)

inviting is more annoying (dON'T dO iT)

@lyxal Does this have to do with Among Us?

Maybe....

@user It's funny

12:33 AM

How is it funny?

Sa si vaka => Sussy baka

Ohhh

user image

If you want some real translations, try this. It translates text from one language to another, but with a ton of languages in between so the end result is unrecognizable

ouch! also, cool

I literally just used someone's (hopefully legal) npm package that uses Google Translate's internal servers to translate stuff

It actually looks uglier in Chrome

Dammit, chat somehow does'nt let you move messages to timeouted rooms :(

12:41 AM

You're not an RO there and can't chat

@cairdcoinheringaahing Can you cancel the timeout in that room? Please? There's cookies in it for you

I tried and failed to move messages from Vyxal, which I do own.

are you able to chat in the destination though?

the room probably shouldn't exist at all, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

the conditions for moving a message are than you must be an RO of the source and have write access in the destination

and they have to be on the same server

Oh that's why

12:45 AM

of course, this means that via the power of mod abuse, i can move messages from nearly every room to nearly every room

You don't need to be RO because you already are :p

yep :p

the only exception is that I don't have implicit access to private rooms attached to sites i don't moderate, and the teacher's lounge has restricted access for mods so I'm more or less a normal user there with some exceptions

I know you're not supposed to share anything said in the Teacher's Lounge, but how active is it compared to here?

it's fairly active but I think TNB still has more activity

OldSandboxPosts

1:00 AM

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: These letters are boring. Take them away!, <s>The big outputted letters jump over the size machine</s> Challenge scrapped. If you want to post this challenge, ask at TNB or my room, Inbox Checkup.

1:36 AM

mmm

excellent title

E

2:20 AM

@OldSandboxPosts heh, neither of these will be posted for a while

Hello everyone

yeah I'll just edit them down

i may as well delete them too so the bot doesn't pick them up

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/126363/… what is this room about

@Wasif It's a secret room we don't tell other users about

@lyxal it has become kinda open secret

2:23 AM

@Wasif caird made it for a joke I think

context:

3 hours ago, by user

@rak1507 The ROs hide all the good messages just before you arrive :P

I think this is going to get the same fate as the room named "Frick"

Redwolf Programs

That was my testing room, but lyxal got RO access and kicked us all out

That's how dictatorships work

codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/229521/… lol I can't imagine Mathematica dosen't have collatz sequence built in

Redwolf Programs

2:26 AM

How should a base conversion function that returns an array of digits work with negative numbers?

example?

Redwolf Programs

For example, should -6 in binary be [-1, -1, 0] or just [1, 1, 0] or [-1, 1, 0], or something else?

@RedwolfPrograms you were kicked so hard that you lost your Wifi :P

Frick was only nuked because people started stepping way too close to being offensive and violating CoC and nothing positive was happening so I just uh, handled it.

Redwolf Programs

(replied to wrong thing ignore)

user image

Anyone see what's wrong with this line of JS? :p

2:29 AM

yes, it's in JS

user image

my room description says "I may change the access controls at any time without warning or trash or delete messages at will."

@lyxal get it right add the h

@RedwolfPrograms Try it online!

I come back to 25 messages and some random invites

2:31 AM

@RedwolfPrograms if 05AB1E says -110, then you make it -110

@Ausername what invite

Jelly does [-1, -1, 0]

@Ausername because lyxal was screwing around with your message in the vyxal room and it got moved a bunch of times and each time invites you

@lyxal What's the intended behaviour for vvvvøm or similar?

@Ausername øm

because you're trying to vectorise v

it parses as ["vv", "vv", "øm"]

AUsername has 136 vyxal answers now

2:33 AM

Ok, so what does vectorising v do?

@Wasif Have I passed Lyxal?

@Ausername nothing

@Ausername looks like so

It will take eternity for me to pass you two

I had a head-start though

@lyxal Can we make it so, say, vvm on [['1','2','3'],['a','b','c']] returns each one palindromed?

I think you should continue in Vyxal room

2:35 AM

@lyxal And I had a week in which I posted ten submissions a day

@Ausername that'll be in the experimental branch

Why? Looking at the corpus, no one has used vv because it's useless.

Redwolf Programs

TIL Ash's base conversion was totally borked

When you reply to the wrong message - sorry hyper

Instead of vv we can use lambda map

2:37 AM

^

Yes, but for a single element, when you want to do things with it afterwards, it saves two bytes.

Also please don't tell me vøm vectorises ø

@Ausername øm is chunked together before v gets its element

Ok food.

What about vßm? Same thing.

@Ausername it will be the same byte count, plus lambda map at end will even save 1 byte

@Ausername all will be fixed with transformers

2:41 AM

vvm compared to ƛƛm;; if you want to do anything with it :p

You just need to add the lambda map and the semicolon at end which is same bytes as vv

@Ausername no you need just one lambda

And one semicolon

If you have nested lists you dont

@Ausername try it before, lambda map applies on lists inside lists

I'm confused now

Ok if a list is like [[1,2],[2,3]], lambda map will apply on both of the lists

Not on the parent list itself

lambda map applies on the children elements, i.e. elements inside the list on top of stack

Hope it clears confusion

Redwolf Programs

2:48 AM

How should I handle factorial of a negative number?

@RedwolfPrograms gamma - 1, the same way you should handle non-integral factorials

sorry, gamma(x + 1) = x!

Redwolf Programs

The language uses integers only though

So that changes things I think

It doesn't make as much sense to do that imo

then just (-x)!=-(x!) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Redwolf Programs

Probably going to do that, yeah

or x! = product(1, 2, ..., x) no matter what

2:50 AM

Take abs of the negative number, get factorial and then change sign

Or gamma as HN suggested

Redwolf Programs

I'll just do (-x)! = -(x!)

That seems like the most useful option I guess

That makes it kinda weird and asymmetrical, but idk what else to do

you could always error :P

3:13 AM

0

A: "Hello, World!"

Incident, 636 bytes (uses Windows-1252 encoding) !"#$%&()*+,-0123456789:;<=?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“|””>!”••!"•––"#–˜˜#%˜™™%&™››&)›žž)+ž¡¡+-¡¢¢-0¢¥¥03¥¦¦34¦§§45§ªª58ª8;®®;<®¯¯<=¯²²=A²µµADµººDIº½½IL½¾¾LM¾¿¿MN¿ÂÂNQÂÄÄQSÄÅÅSTÅÆÆTUÆÇÇUVÇÈÈVWÈÉÉW...

is this the first time we've had an incident HW?

3:35 AM

regarding my meta post on sandbox clutter (see FryAmTheEggman's comments for a bit more context), what's the actual severity of the issue? seems mostly a mobile thing

TBH going through the sandbox at this point is pretty impractical; i think the best solution is to make it clear that people should post it, leave it for a few days - a week, and ask here or something before posting

if we want to support people who don't have the rep to chat, we could have a bot to pull self-comments indicating they want feedback, like redwolf suggested

Redwolf Programs

3:54 AM

Seems mostly like a quality of life sort of thing

Not strictly necessary, but it'd be nice if we could get rid of some old or abandoned posts

mhm. i just don't think it makes much of a difference TBH; i haven't run the stats but even if we purged everything old or abandoned i feel like there'd still be far too much

and that's not sustainable, anyway, and there is a reason we stopped retiring sandboxes regularly (which is actually something someone in TL suggested when I was asking about alternatives, curiously)

Redwolf Programs

I wonder if the we'd be able to get SE to do something small like destroy deleted proposals. That doesn't involve any new features, just a single DB query (or maybe even some sort of pre-existing tool).

I think it's best we don't tamper with it and remove other peoples proposals just because they're old - my fenwick tree proposal had no activity for over three years before I posted it and it was fine

and I've undeleted proposals and ended up posting them too, like the fenwick tree one

IMO we should just leave it and build tools around making reviewing easier, like our chat bots

Redwolf Programs

Speaking of, I should be getting started on the Guild bot some time in the next week or so

and encourage people to ask for feedback more often and maybe set some concrete guidelines for how one should use the sandbox (although i haven't actually taken a good look at your recent reformatting; maybe that addresses that already)

Redwolf Programs

4:04 AM

Time to start debugging the scariest part of my new language: its version of quicks/dynamics. I can already taste the infinite loops.

Mmm transformers

Tasty

Have fun

Redwolf Programs

So far so good, for the non-infinite-looping ones at least

Redwolf Programs

4:20 AM

Oh wow

It works

:o

Redwolf Programs

I thought I found a really nasty bug but I turns out I just inputted the inputs wrong

impossible

I made the mistake of trying to parse Vyxal with regex :p

so, when do we get to see this beautiful new language :P @RedwolfPrograms

4:28 AM

@Ausername I made the mistake of trying to parse Vyxal ~~with regex :p~~

Redwolf Programs

I'm going to write some very good documentation on it first, so probably around 18h from now

Isn't that what you tried to do last time?

Redwolf Programs

Last time I had a lot more to document, and it was a lot less fun to document :p

just publish the repo and i'll figure it out from the source code :p i am impatient

is the beautiful new lang Ash??

Redwolf Programs

4:30 AM

Nope

@Ausername it should be very easy though

Redwolf Programs

I'm not going to reveal the name or anything about it until it's finished :p

isn't ash totally dead

Redwolf Programs

Yep

ash has turned to ashes

4:31 AM

@RedwolfPrograms ah ok

Redwolf Programs

I scavenged some parts from it for this one, though

Just a few operators and library functions though

is it in JS?

Redwolf Programs

Yep

nice

then online interpreter should be quite fast

Redwolf Programs

But the language it's written in shouldn't matter, since it uses bigints, has python's modulo, and has no interpret as JS functionality

I try to keep my languages interpreter-language-agnostic

That's also why Ash had no regexp support

4:41 AM

@lyxal No you didn't, it almost works now.

Unrelated String

4:58 AM

just make your own regex engine smh

I implemented Vyxal in Javascript and it can push numbers/strings to the stack!

@Ausername oo nice

(I mean, that's all, so.../

Redwolf Programs

Does Vyxal have a run as python command?

E acting on a string is eval

5:10 AM

@RedwolfPrograms yeah

every major esolang has that

Redwolf Programs

I wouldn't say every lol

Nowhere near

does 05AB1E have eval as python?

@hyper-neutrino no elixir

okay that's what I thought

i meant eval as its source lang

Redwolf Programs

5:11 AM

I strongly dislike "eval as source lang"

I would say probably a decent amount of golfing languages do.

jelly, pyth, Cjam, japt, golfscript all have that

But nowhere near every esolang in general.

Redwolf Programs

It basically restricts it to a single interpreter

@hyper-neutrino i said major ones

5:11 AM

@RedwolfPrograms how about eval in this lang?

@Wasif brainfuck isn't particularly minor

lol ^

Redwolf Programs

I think you're getting esolangs and golfing languages confused

@RedwolfPrograms i think so

Redwolf Programs

I've never seen a major non-golfing esolang other than befunge that can do that

eval as source lang + string compression is quite powerful feature

Redwolf Programs

5:13 AM

That basically just makes it stax though

i don't know if i've ever used python eval in jelly lol

i use jelly eval all the time

I want to make a golfing language
seriously
but I cannot find a good guide

Redwolf Programs

TNB is probably the best guide :p

@RedwolfPrograms yeah it can be

Redwolf Programs

Do you want to make an esolang, or a golfing language?

5:14 AM

golfing language

Redwolf Programs

If it's a golfing language, there's a great tips question

I want to name it... Anaconda
based on Python

Redwolf Programs

Probably taken

Idk

36

Q: Tips for Creating/Maintaining a Golfing Language

Creating a golfing language can be hard. Let's help budding golfing language creators out and provide some helpful tips on how to create one. I'm looking for tips on: The design process Implementation Community engagement One tip per answer would be appreciated, and tips like "don't create...

as far as i know Anaconda is only a package with Jupyter notebook

Looks fine

5:16 AM

yes then the name is fine

I have also other name: Stag (Stack Golfed)

which one is better you think

Redwolf Programs

Keep in mind that stack based is far from the only paradigm for golfing languages, and probably the most overdone of them all imo

I want to include graphics and web scraping features too

I agree. It's easier both to implement and to use which IMO is why it's very popular

Redwolf Programs

Good for a first golflang though, much easier to parse and wrap your head around

tacit programming languages are too hard to parse and design for me

Redwolf Programs

5:19 AM

Prefix is a good middle ground

Or postfix

I will try postfix

I am used to it

Redwolf Programs

Postfix and stack based are pretty similar, actually

postfix is pretty much just stack tho :p not exactly, but very close

tacit doesn't need to be insanely difficult depending on implementation, but it's definitely a lot harder. I'd recommend a look at Jelly's tutorial; you can just group links together and run them procedurally and even though that's not how functional is really supposed to work it's the easiest way to implement

instead of turning +AB2+ into x => 2 + B(x + A(x)), you group them as (+A)(B)(2+) and just step through the chain and do x = x + A(x); x = B(x); x = 2 + x

I see

Should I use numpy for list vectorization or use plain python lists/generators?

just implement it yourself to give yourself more control over the mechanisms

5:33 AM

ok

@Wasif don't... Don't do that...

then i should make a custom Vector class

@lyxal ok ok I won't steal Keg

@Wasif don't do that either

I usually make a decorator to vectorize a function

or similar

@Wasif I'm not saying that because I don't want you stealing, but for your own benefit

Unrelated String

5:35 AM

i'd say that;s what i do if i did anything

but yeah decorators

decorators good

if you can't decide on the exact mechanism, a decorator will let you change it in exactly one place instead of everywhere

ok

I'll take a look into decorators

Unrelated String

they're literally just special syntax for applying functions to your functions

in the sense of uh

how do i describe it well

fuck it

4

@dec
def f(): ...
will set `f` to `dec(f)`

@UnrelatedString nice

found a nice article on decorators here

Just write your own vectorisation function

I did

@Wasif use built-in lists

Makes life a whole lot easier

Unrelated String

decorators take a function you're defining, then define it as the result if you pass that function to another function

so if there's something you want to do to the behavior of a lot of your functions you can just put that behavior in a functionw hich you use as a decorator

5:52 AM

@Wasif if you want to, you can use vyxal source for inspiration / functionality

can someone check this for polylogarithmic complexity? I can't determine it; it feels linear to me but IDK if the fact that it uses two calls on one branch and one on the other makes it end up being asymptotic (log N)^k or lower.

@lyxal yes I have downloaded the source code and looked into it

Well i need some insight on making the dictionary and string/integer compression

Can anyone help me

I would recommend not doing that first

then codepage first?

implement some basic functions and syntax first to get a good feel for what you want and if what you're approaching will work out

it's up to you if you pick a codepage right away or add to it later

5:58 AM

^^

ok

codepage  = """................................ !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?"""
codepage += """@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~."""
codepage += """................................................................"""
codepage += """................................................................"""

start with this

yeah thx ^

you should keep printable ASCII in the same spots

Make sure to plan the feel of the language first

That's why the first few months of vyxal transcript is planning

And that's why I have a physical notebook I wrote my plans in

5:59 AM

I have made a new room for this language: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/126366/anaconda

it makes clutter here

SVGPathSegCurvetoQuadraticSmoothRel is an actual thing in JS :p

@Ausername and other reasons js is objectively bad

Honestly, I'm pretty sure it's something internal :p

I've got an idea for a challenge, but I don't know if it's worth investing time into on the sandbox. Is it okay if I run a loose version by you folk for a general thought?

yeah, that's perfectly fine!

it's also not a bad idea to dupe check here - sometimes i'll just quickly ask "i have this idea, is it done already" and someone can find me a dupe and i don't have to waste time formalizing

6:12 AM

Ohhh that's smart. The general idea was to make two different calls to a getcurrenttime() type of function at the beginning and end of the code, and having them be equal at the end

Maybe using batch or some machine language?

uh... so fastest-code do nothing?

Depends how accurate/precise the function is on the language too, if a language just returned the current hour it'd be easy

oh then that's not quite observable i think

Exactly. I could limit it to a few languages, but I feel like that ruins the sport of it

anyway, i may be missing something, but i'm not sure how this'd be interesting - you can't really do nothing any faster than just doing nothing

6:36 AM

Yeah that's why it's good to run these ideas past people

7:03 AM

@RedwolfPrograms how do you implement inputting in a golfing language while being language agnostic?

i'm considering your design principle except the way i traditionally take command line arguments is to just try: eval(x); except: str(x)

i could probably use regex or set up some custom parser but that seems rather excessive for just trying to get my input

1 hour later…

8:24 AM

@Arnauld -240 here...

@Neil luckily that user didn't vote me

well was there in a challenge of finding n_th composite number?

we are overrating primes

let's give some love for composites too

8:47 AM

@hyper-neutrino for my unreleased golfing language, I take YAML input and output as YAML. It's pretty intuitive most of the time

user image

The last time I got a 'user removed' was back at the start of may, so nope :p

user image

Also how did this happen?

timezones?

Maybe...

9:07 AM

hm somehow i didn't get any -rep user removed

I've kind of given up on Jyxal myself, and I might just port Python. The main difference is that Javascript

has default number type as a float, even when it's an integer.

BigInts exist, and I'm trying to use those.

9:29 AM

@Ausername you are giving yourself a lot or work by trying to port vyxal tbh

No kidding :p

I'm still trying to figure out how to handle branches in syntax

But I've had a few ideas...

@lyxal Why did you take this over?

CMQ: Describe what CGCC would be like if we got a new, well-written and thought out question every half-hour or so.

@Ausername it was left to me by the previous RO

@Ausername we would have a lot of tired people

9:45 AM

@Ausername if it was so i couldn't stay on my reading room

@Ausername the king of throne will never be back

so Vyxal corp owned it

because they lost their previous hideout, "Frick"

oh I exactly have 7777 rep right now

10:02 AM

44 rep to 6666

Brownie points if you can get 10k on this

10:44 AM

@Wasif *owns

I still retain control over the new room

Update on Jyxal: For loops now work! I mean, you can't do anything with them, because there are no functions.

are you transpiling

To JS yew

I've had a couple of insights - the branch | in while loops can become if(!stack.pop()) break;

@Ausername very good

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Jun '2112

The Nineteenth Byte

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