The Nineteenth Byte

@StackMeter To stop users who repcap regularly from rocketing ahead with rep. We had a discussion about this previously, and basically users who have more rep would have even more without the repcap

Wezl

I'm never going to hit 3k lol

or 1k for that matter

hyper-neutrino

(really poorly made) userscript to replace links' innerHTML with their hrefs: gist.github.com/hyper-neutrino/895eab0cc8f7935da98dad32621ffab6

user

@Wezl Learn Scala and/or answer old questions and I can give you some bounties

caird coinheringaahing

7:08 PM

@Wezl Not if you keep offering bounties :P

Wezl

@user How big is the scala compiler? That's why I'm not about to

@cairdcoinheringaahing exactly

Redwolf Programs

Why would the compiler size matter?

user

@Wezl You can try Scala online in Scastie

Wezl

@RedwolfPrograms it's bloated, and it's on the JVM anyway

user

It's smaller than the Java compiler, but it does require a JDK installed

@Wezl There's Scala Native (beta) and Scala.js (stable)

Scastie has Scala.js, but you might want to try ScalaFiddle

Wezl

7:11 PM

apparently I already have ecj installed and it took seconds to say Unrecognized option : --help

user

I kinda feel like stopping my bounty until I get 10k rep, but that might not happen anytime soon anyway

@Wezl The Eclipse Java Compiler?

Wezl

yeah

not that that's very related to scala but anyhow

user

Why are you using that? (I mean outside of Eclipse)

Wezl

IDK it's just already installed

user

Oh ok

iirc it's a bit slower because of incremental compilation or something

Although it lets you do cool/crazy stuff like compile even when you have errors

StackMeter

7:14 PM

OH MY GOD

user

?

StackMeter

SOMEONE HELP ME BEAT XNOR

caird coinheringaahing

No need to "shout", keep it civil please

StackMeter

sorry

just that it's 50 reputation a pop

Redwolf Programs

Don't worry so much about reputation, it'll come on its own if you focus on golfing

rak1507

7:16 PM

although that being said, it's very tough to outgolf xnor

caird coinheringaahing

High quality posts -> more rep

user

Also, the point of reputation is that if you get it, it means you deserve it. Getting bounties is great, but it's kind of a shortcut (hence the 500 rep limit)

@rak1507 Hence the bounty :P

rak1507

yep

@user are you saying I don't deserve the thousands of rep I've got from APL bounties :P

user

...

caird coinheringaahing

See, I'm not sure if I should be a buzzkill or not. This answer has always annoyed me as it makes no effort to golf, but it has +1300. Is it worth flagging for deletion as not a serious contender?

Redwolf Programs

7:19 PM

No

rak1507

@cairdcoinheringaahing no, it's a fun answer, and it's historic at this point

caird coinheringaahing

Neither of which is a good argument for keeping it

Redwolf Programs

Also, what do you flag answers with if they're not serious contenders? I thought it'd be NAA but that got declined.

caird coinheringaahing

Validity should trump fun and history

Redwolf Programs

Disagree.

caird coinheringaahing

7:20 PM

@RedwolfPrograms Mod intervention

rak1507

I also disagree

pxeger

I don't think it should be there, but it's not worth bothering

rak1507

to me, that answer is a net positive overall

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing it is valid and my policy on non-serious contenders is if it is not attempting to meet the criteria for the challenge at all

minus the whitespace, i'd say this answer doesn't belong to that category

and clever approaches that might not be the most optimal have pretty much always been seen as a positive

caird coinheringaahing

There are multiple golfs suggested in the comments that trivially reduce the byte count, while still preserving the "point" of the answer

IMO it makes no effort to properly compete

rak1507

7:25 PM

killjoy :P

caird coinheringaahing

Yep :P

hyper-neutrino

we could open it to meta. because i think this kind of creativity embodies the whole point of the art side of code-golf but it is technically not competitive and doesn't attempt to take trivial steps to be more competitive

2

but my opinion will differ from other people's so it's not very straightforward

Wezl

@cairdcoinheringaahing no because 1300+ people disagree with you (people in TNB may have more experience with the site, but those opinions still count)

user

The people have decided they like it, stupid as their decision may be. Who are you to question it?

:57639295 I saw that :P

Redwolf Programs

:p

caird coinheringaahing

7:29 PM

@user Respectfully, that's an awful attitude: something's popular, so it's fine no matter what. If people like it, that's fair. People clearly disagree with my view that it isn't a valid answer, also fair. But that doesn't mean that the response should be "it's popular, so it's good"

2

hyper-neutrino

hence why i'd open it to meta if there's sufficient belief that it should be deleted. because i am a moderator with unilateral power but i signed up to use that to uphold the beliefs of the community, not my own

Redwolf Programs

Populism sucks; at least that's what all my friends say

3

caird coinheringaahing

If I was bothered enough, I'd take it to meta. Or would've flagged it in the first place without asking around

As it stands, I suppose I'll grid my teeth until someone else thinks it should go ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'm not saying it's good, but it's pretty subjective, and I don't see why a few people's opinions matter more than those of a thousand people

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing grit*

Redwolf Programs

7:31 PM

How important are the hyperbolic trig functions for a golfing language?

user

(I do agree that they should have removed that whitespace but this might set a bad precedent)

hyper-neutrino

@RedwolfPrograms probably at most a 2-byter, don't think they're at all common, so not worth wasting a single-byte built-in for IMHO

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger Nope, I'm making my teeth into a 8x8 grid so I can play tooth chess :P

rak1507

@RedwolfPrograms not important enough for one byte builtins, 2 bytes

Redwolf Programs

Well for 2 bytes ofc :p

pxeger

7:33 PM

@RedwolfPrograms there's not really a reason not to add them - basically no implementation or upkeep cost

caird coinheringaahing

@user Because, as the site has shown time and time again, voters generally don't give a crap if an answer is "valid" or "a serious contender", they just see something that fits with the creativity of the site and upvote it

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Fair enough, but as rak mentioned above, it's historic at this point, and it does show creativity even if it's not optimal. I say we keep it

caird coinheringaahing

Which is why a meta discussion would probably be the most appropriate way to decide, with users who actually know and participate in the site providing arguments, rather than people who have 101 rep and an upvote button

user

That's a good idea

hyper-neutrino

this is a similar discussion but to a greater extent

user

7:35 PM

Would it be about this one answer or are there similar answers (highly upvoted, not optimal but interesting in some other way)?

caird coinheringaahing

I don't have enough of a stake in the fight to bother writing out a meta discussion, I'm fine with leaving it be if that's what people want

pxeger

Apathy is the best stance to take here tbh

caird coinheringaahing

I brought it up to see if people agreed with me or not, and I think I know :P

pxeger

Well I do..

hyper-neutrino

also keep in mind that this question has likely hit HNQ at some point so a lot of upvotes may be from people who have no idea what our site is about

user

7:36 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing To be fair, I don't like that the author took no effort to improve the answer by removing whitespace, and I've downvoted it because of that.

@hyper-neutrino That's true, I guess

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger Feel free to bring it up on meta, I'll happily add my support. But I suspect you've got the same amount of apathy towards that as me

pxeger

inedeed

user

I'm lazy

caird coinheringaahing

On the other hand, I'm at 29/30 for Inquisitive on meta... :P

user

Ok, it looks like it was a port of the Scala answer. Now I'm really angry >-(

caird coinheringaahing

7:40 PM

The Python answer came first, by 2 minutes :P

user

Oh ok, now i'm mad at the Scala answer

Redwolf Programs

It's probably a coincidence maybe?

user

Stop making me change my allegiances so much! :P

caird coinheringaahing

Wait, no, 2 hours, Scala answer first

user

@RedwolfPrograms Possible, yeah

caird coinheringaahing

7:41 PM

17:48 vs 19:46 (scala vs Python)

user

25 secs ago, by user

Stop making me change my allegiances so much! :P

Redwolf Programs

I say we delete the Python one honestly, since it turns out it's not novel

caird coinheringaahing

Congrats on being the first answer on this site to reach 1,000 upvotes. :) — Joe Z. Dec 6 '15 at 2:48

It hit +1000 in under 2 years, and has had +340 in 5.5 years

user

Congratulations on being the first answer on this site to reach 1,000 upvotes and get deleted - caird, probably

Redwolf Programs

CMDQ: Should flat be shallow or deep by default?

caird coinheringaahing

7:43 PM

Man the revisions make it worse. Someone edited in a golf (boo), but then the dude just rolled it back and never bothered to implement that golf :/

Redwolf Programs

Burn it! Burn it with fire!

Wezl

yeah the scala answer makes me real angry (at the python one)

Redwolf Programs

No the scala one is original!

It's a good one

The Python one is the bad one

Oh ok

Hooray for english being ambiguous

caird coinheringaahing

Lemme just draft up the meta post, how's "Do we hate fun?" for a title? :P

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing i just posted one already

Redwolf Programs

7:46 PM

The answer is obviously "Don't worry, we don't byte"

hyper-neutrino

oh hey the featured sidebar updated. yay

caird coinheringaahing

Just saw :P

Redwolf Programs

Why on earth does JS have both trimStart and trimLeft and they work exactly the same

hyper-neutrino

they probably work differently for some extremely obscure inputs

Redwolf Programs

Nope, they're identical

user

7:49 PM

@RedwolfPrograms Deep

Maybe there should be another (2-byte) command taking the levels of nesting as an argument

Redwolf Programs

Considering making + and - vectorize by default, instead of converting both arguments to numbers

caird coinheringaahing

8:11 PM

Why did I bother typing up and citing all those previous meta discussions when New Posts nailed my point in 3 lines? :P

> Handling old, popular, creative, but non-competitive answers
Delete them
Now - caird coinheringaahing (31,331)

2

Redwolf Programs

It's like poetry

Redwolf Programs

8:27 PM

What does Jelly mean by convolution for æc?

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Convolution

Redwolf Programs

How does that work in Jelly? Looks like it's an operation on functions

rak1507

numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/generated/numpy.convolve.html

caird coinheringaahing

I believe it's the convolution of 2 polynomials, expressed as lists of coefficients

@rak1507 IIRC it's implemented by hand, not using numpy in Jelly

hyper-neutrino

looks like it

def convolve(left, right):
	left, right = iterable(left, make_range = True), iterable(right, make_range = True)
	result = [0]*(len(left)+len(right)-1)
	for i,x in enumerate(left):
		for j,y in enumerate(right):
			result[i+j] += x*y
	return result

rak1507

8:30 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing sure, but that's just docs for it

hyper-neutrino

NMP come on, it's been 45 minutes since i posted to meta

caird coinheringaahing

Don't you post for it, I warned you yesterday what happens :P

Delfad0r

@hyper-neutrino Where'd the anime girl go? :'(

New Meta Posts

4

Q: Handling old, popular, creative, but non-competitive answers

Take a look at this answer: Produce the number 2014 without any numbers in your source code. This is the most upvoted answer on our site right now. However, as many have pointed out, by modern standards, this is not a competitive solution because it doesn't take trivial steps to be more competiti...

caird coinheringaahing

Due to the way OSP logins in (via codegolf.se rather than directly into chat) I think it'll get the Fanatic badge on July 6th at the latest :P

Redwolf Programs

8:40 PM

:p

Unless I decide to shut down the server for maintainence at the exact right time ;)

A username

I get Enthusiast in two hours

Or three maybe

caird coinheringaahing

It's UTC days, so 3 hours 20 mins

Redwolf Programs

Nice!

A username

Thanks!

caird coinheringaahing

@Ausername Congrats on Sportmanship btw, we need more users with that badge :)

hyper-neutrino

8:46 PM

@Delfad0r decided to change it cuz even though lyxal and other people who say "my opinion isn't valid" are certainly joking, i'd rather not give a negative or unprofessional appearance, and to avoid confusing people about my gender identity, and because i'm getting bored of people refering to a character from a video game made by a chinese company as "anime" lmao

basically no real significant reason. also the lambda symbol looks cool

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Pretty sure Lyxal isn't joking

Lyxal is Lyxal :P

Redwolf Programs

@hyper-neutrino You're going to need to steal caird's kneecaps too it seems

A username

codegolf.stackexchange.com/help/badges/100/illuminator The impossible badge

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing your kneecaps. hand them over

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Can I at least keep one?

hyper-neutrino

8:49 PM

for now, you may

Redwolf Programs

Just take some elbows as a warning

Wezl

@cairdcoinheringaahing What would you use it for? Are you saying you would stand up?!?

caird coinheringaahing

@Ausername That's very difficult, but doable. Generalist is literally impossible to get on CGCC as it's "Only awarded to anyone after each of the 40 top tags has over 200 questions" (source) and we only have 27 tags with 200+ questions: codegolf.stackexchange.com/tags?tab=popular

We'd need 86 more python questions for anyone to even get close to it (plus just a whole lot more questions under a whole lot more tags)

Redwolf Programs

That's an awful prerequisite for a tag

It's basically SO only

Maybe math and SU too

On a typical QWERTY keyboard, which hand does more typing?

Probably the left one, right?

caird coinheringaahing

How close are you to Generalist? Spoiler: no where near

Wezl

8:54 PM

CMQ: Who shows up the most on this page? (for you)

hyper-neutrino

my initial guess would be the left hand, since when i compare one-handed typing speed, i'm faster with my left hand, but that isn't really that good of an indication :P

Redwolf Programs

Probably left because of E, T, A, and S

i guess backspace is on the right, so it might depend on your error rate :p

Wezl

no I use my left hand for backspace

:)

Redwolf Programs

I type very weirdly

I use both hands, but I only use one finger on each

Or that might be normal idk

Wezl

@RedwolfPrograms Authoritative reference needed?

Redwolf Programs

8:59 PM

No, reward an existing one

Wezl

boring but ok

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms We would have 130 users with Generalist without that requirement

Wezl

wait but which one would I reward it to then?

caird coinheringaahing

As soon as we pass it, a bunch of people are going to be awarded it

Redwolf Programs

@Wezl Don't worry about it actually, I'll do one myself

caird coinheringaahing

9:04 PM

Who would get a Generalist badge without the 200 question/tag requirement. If the number in the final column is 20 or higher, you would get it

user

@RedwolfPrograms Left, I can eat a pizza with my right hand and type with my left

@RedwolfPrograms And you call yourself a programmer?!

caird coinheringaahing

Alternatively, which of the top 40 tags do you have a score of 15 or more in?

user

Just 18 of them :(

By the way, thanks @Wezl

caird coinheringaahing

9:28 PM

I found a part of the help center that's actually relevant! From What are declined flags, and what should I do about them?:

> the better we are at working together to solve problems, the better Code Golf Stack Exchange works for everyone!

Good to see that the spirit of the site is in the help center, albeit in the wrong place :/

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing I mean, a good part of the help center is relevant, there's just a lot of Q&A-specific stuff mixed in with it

> The problem may be subtle, and those reviewing the flagged content simply missed seeing it (e.g., you flagged a comment as abusive for attempting to rickroll, but the moderator handling the flag neglected to click the link).

The rickroll part even has a link to the video. hyper-neutrino, is this your work?

Wezl

wait does that mean that's a valid reason to flag outside of chat?

caird coinheringaahing

Yes

You even get badges for it :P

If an answer is invalid, drop a comment saying "This answer is invalid, so I've flagged it for deletion", click "Flag" -> "In need of mod intervention" and say something along the lines of "This answer is invalid and should be deleted". Alternatively, flag spam or posts that are VLQ

Redwolf Programs

Starting up the server again, for anyone interested in helping with the computer

(It's on 1.16.4, not 1.16.5, so you may need to switch the version in the launcher)

Finished a circuit to increment an 8-bit number!

user

9:52 PM

I'm curious, how exactly does this work?

Redwolf Programs

I made a half adder using redstone comparators and torches

If you don't know redstone it's pretty neat

user

I need to look it up then

Oh wait they're just electricity

Redwolf Programs

Basically yeah

user

This is really cool

Redwolf Programs

I'll send a screenshot once I finish rearranging some stuff

The left row of lights is the input byte, the top one is the output

Lyxal

10:05 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'm proud of you for saying this.

Redwolf Programs

There is a cat in my incrementer

This is good news

I will name it Turing

JPeroutek

I made a redstone computer back in the day, and the way i built a counter was with chained edge-triggered t flip-flops

Lyxal

when you beat Dennis and jelly with no flags

Wezl

You're still benefited by the flags because you may use builtins that would otherwise be more bytes without flags

but not a bad answer

Lyxal

@Wezl but I didn't use flags in the answer

Not in the one I linked

Redwolf Programs

10:16 PM

I think their point is that, since Vyxal can offload some operators to flags, those other operators can fit in one byte rather than two

Unrelated String

...I would say I feel like there's a shorter Jelly solution with Æp, but given 2 or 1 it straight up errors, so it may be longer to have to cover the base cases directly

Lyxal

Imagine not returning 0 if there isn't a previous prime

@RedwolfPrograms I'm still not sure I understand what you're saying. Is it that I could turn flags into operators?

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, Æp (and the other sympy based functions) are annoying for any arguments other than normal

Unrelated String

going to crack the source open to see if there's some third party function it calls that happens to error or if okay yeah it's external lmao

still silly that jelly doesn't catch the exception but at least it's excusable

Redwolf Programs

@Lyxal Like if you had two one bit operators, x and y, and a flag z, whereas other languages use two bits for x, y, and z, Vyxal would still represent programs with only x and y in fewer bits

Lyxal

10:20 PM

@RedwolfPrograms yes, that's the point of flags

I'm very well aware of that

The linked answer doesn't use flags which is why I'd thought I'd share it

Redwolf Programs

I think the answer's fine, I'm just demonstrating what Wezl said

Lyxal

So just to clarify: is it an observation or a language feature suggestion?

Redwolf Programs

Observation

Lyxal

I don't know which it is, and either is fine

Oh okay

Cool

caird coinheringaahing

Its saying that any language that uses flags cannot properly compete with one without :P

Redwolf Programs

10:23 PM

It's weird having two devices open on TNB because I hear a ping on both about a second apart

Unrelated String

:\

Wezl

@RedwolfPrograms please make that into a youtoube channel

Lyxal

@Wezl ah yes, youtoube, my favourite meme consuming platform

user

^ I suppose this is your work @Lyxal

Lyxal

@user beautiful isn't it.

My influences are finally paying off

user

10:32 PM

I meant the star, but unfortunately, yeah

@Lyxal Also, your influences are your influences, not "finally paying off"

Wezl

changed my pfp, but my subtlety and artisticness(?) will never be realized :'(

Lyxal

@user good

caird coinheringaahing

@Lyxal I've made the joke once, now never again :P

user

@Lyxal Good?! I hoped I'd you annoy with your own joke

Lyxal

@user quite the opposite

user

10:33 PM

Argh!!

Redwolf Programs

Argh gotta deal with all this annoying quantum stuff in my redstone

user

How do you express that feeling of frustration through text? "Argh" doesn't cut it

@RedwolfPrograms I thought minecraft blocks were quanta

Wezl

@user is the postfix influencing your mind?

user

Are you making a quantum computer?

@Wezl Nah, just these stupid math problems

Redwolf Programs

@user There's a bug called quasiconnectivity that affects pistons and droppers

It's some weird quantum sorta stuff

Wezl

10:35 PM

(was referring to the "you annoy")

user

Oh lol

Yeah, the Factor has turned my brain to mush

To be fair it was pretty mushy already

@RedwolfPrograms Sounds like quantum tunneling?

Wezl

lol mine too

Lyxal

hey look it's one of our mods: λ

and here's hyper with a headband: ƛ

hey wait so does that mean HN can legally claim copyright on some of my answers which use λ?

user

Or you could copyright it first and get HN to change their pfp

Redwolf Programs

It'd be trademark not copyright

user

10:45 PM

Then you could sue the hell out of mathematicians, computer scientists, historians, etc.

@RedwolfPrograms Oh right

Ha, this user's pfp looks like mine from a distance. I was wondering when I posted a question on Philosophy SE before seeing the username

Redwolf Programs

SE's identicons look kinda ugly imo

user

@RedwolfPrograms They're used to represent you, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

:P

Redwolf Programs

This computer is going to be very slow

Probably somewhere around two to four seconds per cycle

caird coinheringaahing

Wait, we have a subreddit? r/ppcg

2

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing reddit.com/r/ppcg/comments/gkp9qf/wait_we_have_a_subreddit

caird coinheringaahing

10:50 PM

Well, I suppose that answers that :P

Redwolf Programs

The top three messages are "we have a subreddit?" "anyone still here?" and "question about avocado"

Quality™

user

Looks like no one uses it, although the famous question about avocado has reached r/ppcg too

Lyxal

Aww my reddit premium expired.

Sad.

user

@RedwolfPrograms Scroll down and you see another avocado question and a post about evil sheep

caird coinheringaahing

Oh yeah, the sheep vs goat rivalry is a bit of CGCC history lost to the transcript :P

user

10:52 PM

Downgoat vs. ???

caird coinheringaahing

No, sheep (the animal) vs goat (the animal)

user

Just the animals?

Is there any context to this?

caird coinheringaahing

Um

I don't think so

Jun 12 '17 at 15:33, by Erik the Outgolfer

sheep = evil creatures of Satan

People just don't like sheep :P

Search for "sheep are evil"

user

...Interesting

Redwolf Programs

I just realized I designed registers that don't actually store things

They just copy the input

I am a very smart person

Bubbler

10:57 PM

The optimization tag wiki sounds wrong

It's described in the sense of a winning criterion, but no one thinks it as one these days

Wezl

user

@Bubbler Maybe add "(not a winning criterion)"

Wezl

@hyper-neutrino FTFY

Redwolf Programs

How many general purpose 8-bit registers would you say are needed for a reasonably usable TC computer?

Wezl

16+

Lyxal

10:59 PM

30k

caird coinheringaahing

@Bubbler optimization as a whole is a pretty vague tag

Wezl

16 you can fit in half a byte

Redwolf Programs

?

Lyxal

Brainfrick has 30k memory cells

Redwolf Programs

I'm talking about registers not memory

Transcript for