The Nineteenth Byte - 2020-08-23

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HighlyRadioactive

1:50 AM

@Szewczyk To KS, programming in Malbolge is similar to programming in C.

2:01 AM

@petStorm Those where my first name initials back then. I actually changed my name IRL.

wasp-compiled.firebaseapp.com The most elegant online IDE I've ever seen.

2:27 AM

x | 3 = 0, x < 15. x can be 0, 3, 6, 9, 12.

12 hours ago, by HighlyRadioactive

@petStorm and why

Since we now know that any value where x ≤ 10 is being questioned, we can say that x = 12.

HighlyRadioactive

2:48 AM

ok, you got me.

What!? What do you mean?

HighlyRadioactive

@petStorm Since Szewczyk's age is a prime number and it is at most a multiple of 1, he should get 1 star.

what?

@HighlyRadioactive Since your age is a multiple of 3, you should get 3 stars.

HighlyRadioactive

...

@HighlyRadioactive @all Come on, star this 3 times!

HighlyRadioactive

2:52 AM

The CA community is full of kids.

@petStorm ...

Some of them are <12

@HighlyRadioactive You're saying it's full? So joining a CA community would be like trying to get my way into an overly crowded subway, but all passengers would be kids.

That's going to be an awful experience... (I now prefer to take a bus instead of taking the subway.) I think kids, specifically those in a crowded place, would be annoying, noisy, dangerous, and a lot more.

HighlyRadioactive

@petStorm Trying to get my way into Mornington Crescent?

@HighlyRadioactive Yep, it's like that; but it's more like a simulator of the London subway that is a lot more crowded than it actually is.

7 hours later…

New Sandboxed Posts

9:57 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Split a number in every possible way You task here is very simple: Given a positive integer n as input, split it in all possible ways Examples Input->Output 123 -> {{123}, {12, 3}, {1, 23}, {1, 2, 3}} 8451 -> {{8451}, {845, 1}, {8, 451}, {84, 51}, {84, 5, 1}, {8, 45, 1}, {8, 4, 51}, {8, 4, 5...

2 hours later…

New Sandboxed Posts

11:37 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Show an integer, in digits of your choice Input A string representing digit characters, and a nonnegative integer. How? We shall show the integer in positional notation, where the string has the digit characters. Assuming the string is zero-indexed, the \$n\$th character shall represent \$n\$. Th...

11:54 AM

I'm so bored.

I'll take a look at the sandbox.

Ugh, boring challenges.

Step 2. Try to learn a brand new language on esolangs.org

12:30 PM

~you should totally pick asm2bf~

2 hours later…

2:07 PM

@Szewczyk the thing's wiki page could be a book

Step 3. Go to bed

That's the first step

@JohnDvorak You're reading up-side down, aren't you?

That's the recommended approach

Tell me, before the heat death of the universe, what would be the last message in The Nineteenth Byte?

2:18 PM

English

3

(locks the room)

@petStorm "@user-name -1 byte: (…) Try it online! (may not finish before the heat death of the universe)"

Oh no. Now 2 people suffer in this problem.

Although... is the room going to be stopped because everyone flees a sinking ship, or because we ram into an iceberg?

you don't have to go to bed if you never get out of bed :) yawn. thanks covid19!

@JohnDvorak I think it's going to be stopped by salt water. Or fresh water?

2:22 PM

@petStorm "what's that thing in the sky flying towards us?"

4

@ngn That's right ― there's actually a world out there, outside my bed… I had all but forgotten.

@ngn If there's something visibly flying towards us, then the universe is not about to die a heat death quite yet.

@Adám but there wouldn't be anyone to type another message in chat until the heat death

@ngn I think after aliens dominated Earth, they're still going to use The Nineteenth byte. Unless that thing isn't made by intelligent beings.

The Bible does speak about a rock from the sky, but I don't think it's being literal

@JohnDvorak Where?

2:26 PM

Daniel 2:31-45

> “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever

@JohnDvorak where's the rock in that?

It's a symbolic one, striking the human kingdoms.

Here's a link to the whole passage: biblegateway.com/passage/…

76

Q: Count up forever

Write a program that counts up forever, starting from one. Rules: Your program must log to STDOUT or an acceptable alternative, if STDOUT is not available. Your program must be a full, runnable program, and not a function or snippet. Your program must output each number with a separating chara...

code-golf number counting

Wow, this question has exactly 200 answers.

@JohnDvorak It is quite clearly speaking of the messianic kingdom.

@JohnDvorak right, with that context, there is a rock :)

2:39 PM

Unfortunately the chat engine doesn't let me quote it in full

I apologize I hadn't provided the link at first

@Adám it's not meant to be taken literally, it could be any form of autocratic social organization and a solid object of any chemical composition :D

> And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed; nor shall the kingdom be left to another people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, but it shall stand for ever.

Both the meteorite and the statue's feet represent governments.

Human governments are those that will perish and God's kingdom is the one that will replace them

@ngn I think you'll be hard pressed to interpret ^^^ as anything but a theocracy.

And, since there still are traces of human governments on Earth, we do know this is talking about the future

2:50 PM

@Adám as you know, i'm hard pressed to interpret the bible as anything but a collection of fairy tales :)

How can we help with that?

@JohnDvorak "traces of"? governments are strong and only getting stronger.. unfortunately

@ngn That's not interpretation, that's judgement. And of course you're entitled to, but when John was quoting the bible about a space rock, and you questioned it (not that he meant it literally anyway), the subject became the bible's content, not its veracity.

That was a deliberate understatement ;)

> At that time the iron, the clay, the copper, the silver, and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them could be found.

Heavy metals can't really behave like threshed chaff, anyway, so it clearly isn't meant literally.

2:54 PM

I thought you could blow away gold dust?

Sure, but that'd be leaf, not really a product of "crushing" as much as rolling or maybe stamping.

I take the "chaff" as allegory for being useless and disregarded, like chaff.

that is accurate

While "crushed" is a normal way to express the fall of an empire, rebellion, or other power, under military pressure.

"a crushing victory"

"a crushing defeat"

@JohnDvorak i usually enjoy having detailed discussions with people of various religions, but i'm not sure this would be welcome in tnb

Where do you wish to move the discussion?

3:00 PM

@ngn As long as we're not blocking (more) on-topic discussions, it's fine.

fair enough. we can argue here then :) so, why would you, guys, assume someone's dream from a few thousand years ago has any relevance to contemporary politics?

@JohnDvorak He, you and I might disagree on that: Garden of Eden, The Upper Room, or V'dibarta Bam…

@ngn That's a most excellent question.

@ngn That's not the only prophecy. By far. And some of them have already been fulfilled.

@JohnDvorak isn't vagueness a problem? do you also account for the ones that don't get fulfilled?

None have failed.

3:06 PM

@ngn Maimonides brings the order of transmission the Truth™, all the way from God to his day (around 800 years ago), and the history is fairly documented since him too. The line includes Daniel.

@JohnDvorak Hold on, sometimes prophets would warn about impending doom, but the people would repent, and the doom didn't happen.

@JohnDvorak Just because some things have already happened, doesn't mean others will. Also, I notice an odd tendency in the stories about Jesus, where there are phrases like "then he did this and that so that such and such prophesy would be fulfilled". That doesn't sound very reassuring to me.

@Adám That's the point of a warning. If despite all expectations a nation decides to devote themselves to God, then God will take that into account.

I believe you are talking about Jonah's service?

For example.

> But Jehovah said: “You felt sorry for the bottle-gourd plant, which you did not work for, nor did you make it grow; it grew in one night and perished in one night. Should I not also feel sorry for Ninʹe·veh the great city, in which there are more than 120,000 men who do not even know right from wrong, as well as their many animals?”

@JohnDvorak why would the (hypothetical) god of the whole the universe care to take sides in the affairs of a certain species on a tiny planet in an unremarkable corner of the universe? it's not in proportion.

@ngn Do note that Earth was specifically made to be habitable. We don't know of any other species than those on Earth.

3:16 PM

@Razetime yes, totally

but 90% of it is severely outdated

and it's overall incomplete

@ngn If indeed he has unlimited resources (for attention, concern, etc.) then why would anything be too small for him to care about?

@JohnDvorak (While I know you're just copy-pasting, the use of "Jehovah" in your source text clearly indicates that the translators and/or publishers are not qualified.)

@JohnDvorak earth shows no signs of being "made", though. on the contrary, most natural phenomena we observe are chaotic. species adapt to their environment, not vice versa.

What translation do you wish me to copy/paste from?

The NIV translation is the same: " But the Lord said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”"

@ngn absence of signs doesn't really imply anything. of course it would be pretty nice to have sane sensible proof for things, but that's unrelated

@Adám if that was the case, we would have seen much better evidence of his interventions by now, or at least some two-way communication with the ruler of the universe :)

3:24 PM

@dzaima No, that'd remove the whole reason for the creation.

@ngn I think around 3 million people experiencing such communication first hand is pretty solid.

@JohnDvorak Candidate. (But I'm biased, of course.)

@Adám But that one does use יְהֹוָ֗ה

@Adám lol, did the room where the police store confiscated drugs catch fire? :D seriously, idk what biblical story you're referring to, but i'm sure it could have other explanations. and most likely this is not a repeatable experiment..

@ngn I have plenty of experience, too

@JohnDvorak Sure, because that's what it actually says in the Hebrew text. But that's not "Jehovah" at all.

@JohnDvorak with two-way communication with god?! or with the police? ;)

3:32 PM

The latter, I hope.

@ngn both :P

And the former has been much more forgiving

Ahem:

> And there was no other prophet who arose in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

@JohnDvorak ok, so next time you talk to god, why don't you ask him for a little proof? on my behalf :)

Of course, you can maybe claim that such a prophet could arise outside the people of Israel, but that's a bit of a stretch…

@ngn If you were god, and wanted people to believe in you without giving them outright proof, how would you go about doing that?

@Adám if i were a god, i'd give people proof! why would i have to hide?

3:36 PM

@Adám is there some reason god is prohibited from outright giving proof?

What kind of proof are you looking for?

@JohnDvorak well, earlier in this conversation adam mentioned that the reason god cares about details could be that he has infinite resources. but let's go with a weaker assumption - "god of the universe" as he's often called in the bible, can command significantly more resources than are available on this planet. it's easy to come up with some cryptographic problem that requires more computation resources than available on earth, but much less than the whole universe.

God can easily prove he exists. Proving he's the good guy takes time.

my suggestion is not pure proof of existence, but if it can be done repeatedly, it would significantly increase the credibility of the claim.

@JohnDvorak "exists" - how?

The claim of existence. But no amount of cryptographical homework can show the intent.

3:42 PM

@ngn @dzaima The only reason god created the work was because he (for some mysterious reason we can't fathom) wanted to give, benefit others. Problem was, there were no others (since there was only god, no world), so he (as if it were) lessened his own appearance, giving us the perception of being separate (while really, he fills everything, and there's nothing other than him). Now, just giving everyone what they need, isn't the ultimate benefaction (since it makes people uncomfortable)…

@Adám so humanity is a sort of challenge god made for themselves?

@Adám it's not the only possible reason..

@dzaima Yeah, sort of, except it isn't really challenging per se.

@ngn 12 hours of strong wind just as you arrive at the shore of a big sea and the big bad guy is charging at you with chariots. Some people got that proof. Three days later, they switched sides.

… Rather, making people (believe that they) earn their reward, causes the reward to become much more palatable, and therefore enjoyable. But for that to happen, there has to be a choice; to do the right thing (earning the reward) and to ignore the instruction (forfeiting the reward). Hard proof would cause everyone to have no doubts, and there'd be no "test" or "challenge" in life.

3:45 PM

@ngn well, there needs to be only one possible reason for a thing to not be strictly impossible, and that does seem to be a reasonable situation all things considered

@JohnDvorak i would take that as a sign that cthulhu might exist :)

And that's the problem - humans will believe anything else than that there's somebody who likes them and this is what they should do to show appreciation.

@dzaima i meant, the other obvious possible reason is he doesn't exist at all

@ngn i mean, the 3 million people (i don't know where Adám got that number either) is reasonably repeatable non-proof. It's possible those all had their own separate reasons for not being sane enough to know that what they were imagining was them imagining it (plus the possibility of the number being heavily inflated), but it can represent some credibility increase

@JohnDvorak Yeah, there's always room for doubt. That's the whole point. And man, people will take that way out, no matter how crazy it seems. Sure, all sorts of miracles in Egypt, and then they seem stuck at the sea of reeds, and now, "oh no, lets go back to be slaves, what did you bring us here to die for‽"

3:51 PM

@ngn unless your goal is to prove that there is non-0% chance god doesn't exist, that doesn't particularly matter

@ngn Does it matter what his name is? If he follows that action by saying "I'm the one that did all those things, do this and that, and I'll be with you going forward", then I don't really care what his name is.

hi there

lotta discussion here

Greetings

@Adám does that imply that you believe there is a >0% chance god doesn't exist?

@JohnDvorak regarding intent (good/bad), i think god can be either omnibenevolent (good) or omnipotent (all-powerful). can't be both. you just have to look at the world around you - this is known as the "problem of evil". (i believe @Adam might argue here that "good" is just our interpretation, and god is neither good nor bad.)

3:53 PM

@dzaima 600000 army age men, so plus an equal number of women of the same age, and the elderly, and the underage, about 3 million.

Theres a >0% chance of a higher power existing

@dzaima i can't prove non-existence. i don't think anyone can.

@ngn the world around us is as is because God is patient. 6000 years to clear any doubt that the rebellion had a valid point is worth the wait.

Even death can be reversed.

@dzaima I don't think "chance" is the right word here, as it isn't really a statistics-type question. (In what percentage of worlds does a god exist?) "Uncertainty" might be better. And yes, of course I have my doubts. I'm not an angel.

To be fair, I feel that all statistics involves a bit of "black magic" (not literal, of course) - "Either he exists or he doesn't - and because that's all we know, let's say both options are equiprobable"

3:57 PM

@Razetime Yeah, feel free to join in, but if you'd rather discuss any programming, or even more so, code golf or other competitive programming, we'll be quiet.

@JohnDvorak That's fake folk-statistics.

@ngn so the only thing you can do in a discussion about religion is either hard-disprove false claims, or reduce faith/non-objective beliefs of the opponents enough for them to switch

@Adám Good to hear. But how does one avoid unfounded assumptions of equiprobability?

@dzaima (though i guess Adám did say "The only reason god …" in which case mentioning that there are other options is valid criticism)

I don't mind this

@JohnDvorak Fold your earlobes into your ear canals :-) You can't stop stupidity and ignorance.

4:02 PM

@dzaima "hard-disprove false claims" - yes! there's plenty of those :) realistically, i don't expect anyone to "switch" (or rather "drop" their deeply held beliefs) as a result of a single discussion. but i do hope to encourage critical thinking.

But hey, even the average human fares better than GPT-3 :P

@JohnDvorak that's just a basic logical fallacy. i'm purposefully only mentioning the constants 0% and 100% as those are pretty much the only ones that can be reasoned about

@ngn True, and disproving such claims is a worthy cause. However, one has to be careful. Claims about the past are notoriously difficult to back up, and claims about the future are often silly.

@Adám yeah, certain is definitely better than chance

@dzaima (in which case, the question would've been "are you (not) 100% certain that god exists")

@Adám so we're only left with the present :)

it's a shame most religions discourage (or even outright prohibit) doubt. probably a self-defence mechanism.

4:10 PM

@ngn Citation needed. A don't know as many details about other religions as I know about Judaism, but certainly in the latter, questions are encouraged all year round, except for passover, when they are required.

@Adám no punishment for apostasy?

> Acts 17:2 So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to [Thessalonicans], and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures

@ngn Actual apostasy, sure, but we don't label critical questions as such. There are no taboo questions in Judaism.

@JohnDvorak "sabbaths" there is probably mistranslated. I'm pretty sure it should say "weeks".

@Adám so you can doubt as much as you want, as long as in the end you get to the "right" conclusion :)

@ngn No: as long as in the end, you do the right thing.

4:17 PM

Kingdom Interlinear says "σάββατα"

@ngn This is often a problem in a lot of sects of the Hindu religion

Either way, the point is that they discussed the topic

@Adám the "right" thing, as preconceived by religious dogma. what if you find out that opposite is true, and it does have implications for real-world actions? you gonna pretend it's not true? talk about the weather every time the inconvenient topic comes up..? :)

@JohnDvorak i remember something about st thomas having doubts and being given as an example of something bad.. but i can't recall the details and the wikipedia article isn't very good

@JohnDvorak Sure, but it was common use the word "sabbath" to mean week, e.g. in Lev. 23:15.

Ah, thanks. It does seem more likely that he'd be talking every day.

4:28 PM

@Razetime i wish i could comment, but to be honest i don't know much about hinduism

@ngn No, then you follow your truth. We have plenty of historical occurrences of that, even when it came to substantial and important matters.

@ngn The source gives a good summary :) biblegateway.com/passage/…

ah thats fine

@Razetime feel free to share interesting facts if you think they are relevant

@JohnDvorak Sure thing. And while it doesn't matter here, it does indicate that caution is warranted with many translations "out there".

4:32 PM

All of the translations I've checked translate it as sabbath

@JohnDvorak yep, that's my hero - thomas :)

ah sure

2 hours later…

6:42 PM

@Adám i remember seeing a question, along "if i were to toss a coin now, what's the probability of it being tails. possible answer: 0.5, 1, 0, either 1 or 0 but i don't know"

there was a discussion spun from the last possible answer, i.e. that every probability for something physical occurring technically either happens or doesn't (it was some twitter thread, can't find it)

1 hour later…

8:12 PM

@user41805 shroedinger's famous cat :)

3 hours later…

11:06 PM

0

Q: Is it in the polygon?

The challenge Given point and a path of points, say whether or not the point is in the polygon that is created by the path. Return true if the point is on an edge of the polygon. Input A list of numbers separated by spaces. The first 2 numbers represent the point. The remaining pairs represent po...

11:38 PM

Any other feedback on the vanilla factorial challenge?

@Bubbler !

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