The Nineteenth Byte

Erik the Outgolfer

00:00

competitor immediately gets silenced, turns their backs and runs away as quickly as they can

5

Adám

@Zacharý Dunno. Notice the third flip switch from the right:

3

Zacharý

BASIC and APL ... wow

Erik the Outgolfer

honestly though, "GOTO" should be where "→" is...

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Other than pairing LOAD/)LOAD, SAVE/)SAVE, REWIND/)REWIND, */×, and //÷ it doesn't look like they tried matching anything.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám well, some of BASIC's statements can't be paired with any of APL's, and some would need to be paired with glyph overlaps (which obviously don't exist on the keyboard), but I'm pretty sure a better job could have been done...

Adám

00:12

@EriktheOutgolfer Hm, this German layout direct key-combos for the overstrikes and the most common (at the time, obviously) ⎕-names:

@EriktheOutgolfer … notice that ⍞ is paired with PAUSE and [⎕] with PRINT. That does make sense.

Pavel

@Adám Is that a cassette tape?

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám lol the screen caught my attention a bit...I guess there's what we call a "rubber duck" today up there, and somebody is doing something with "WHATSAPP"...

Adám

@Pavel Yes. The only type of swappable high-capacity storage device at the time.

Pavel

"high-capacity"

Zacharý

> at the time

Adám

00:17

@EriktheOutgolfer I noticed too. But then most of the text is garble. The plot thickens. Also notice that the computer's owner is an APLer.

Pavel

On a more serious note, aren't cassetes extremely prone to corruption? Which is why old films appear to have a lot of weird artifacts and discoloration

Zacharý

Yet it's in BASIC mode ... heresy /s

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám yeah, those books, and that "NSA" at the top

Pavel

...aren't cassete tapes an analog format?

Adám

@Pavel Not when used digitally ;-)

Zacharý

00:20

⍨

Adám

@Pavel …aren't all magnetic storage devices analog?

Actually, aren't all storage devices analog (at some level)?

Pavel

I mean, technically

But the point is, cassete tapes are a super unreliable storage medium

Adám

@Pavel Only if used to store analog data (like traditionally done with sound), but e.g. VHS uses the tape digitally and is quite reliable.

ASCII-only

01:17

@Adám well they're both prone to physical contamination, corrupting the data

FrownyFrog

01:55

Digital VHS appeared in 1998

and wasn't used much

from Wikipedia

quartata

02:48

transplante cardíaco

I hope archives of Twitter last a long time.

Destructible Lemon

ok so, basic idea for a 2d core war type game:

you have heads which execute commands and stuff

heads have two modes

the default mode moves around, executing commands on the grid

some of these commands will affect a sequence of commands stored in the head

the other mode, activated by a specific command, will cause the head to execute this sequence of commands instead of the commands on the gridd

that's the idea i guess

HyperNeutrino

03:55

@Downgoat oh so wait if I'm not being complete idiot what you're asking is if I'm willing to share expenses for plane thingy as in like lend you money or something? or what I am confused still sorry lol

Downgoat

@HyperNeutrino oh no XD lol im just curious how much you spend in general to get the required hours for your pilot's license (or whatever Canadian equivalent is)

HyperNeutrino

OH

share

=

share info

um I don't have any sort of pilot training lmao

sorry:P

Downgoat

@HyperNeutrino oh rip

Conor O'Brien

haicanihavecashplz

HyperNeutrino

sure have $-1

Pavel

04:01

If I'm editing a python file in vim without a .py extension, how can I tell it to use Python highlighting?

Conor O'Brien

@HyperNeutrino I'll take $-1

HyperNeutrino

lol

Doorknob

@Pavel :set ft=python

Pavel

Thanks

ATaco

04:13

I still can't get into Vim as an editor, even just using Vim Keybindings

Pavel

I use different editors for different tasks

Throughout the day I use Vim, Sublimte Text, VSCode, Visual Studio

ATaco

I prefer VSCode for anything project based, EG. More than one file, but if I'm just editting one file I usually boot it in Sublime Text.

quartata

I don't understand why so few editors have visual block

It's really the killer vim feature for me

ATaco

I don't even know what that is ;-;

Downgoat

04:31

@quartata most half decent editors have visual block equivilent

Sublime, Atom...

dzaima

@quartata Notepad++ even padded with spaces if the box was selected out of bounds of the text, making it very easy to place spaces for explanation formatting

@Downgoat the native ones of both of those are very annoying though as the keystrokes to extend vertically vs horizontally differ by more than just the arrow keys. And neither AFAIK has a mouse+some key drag-to-select

Doorknob

visual block is basically just :norm but worse

Downgoat

@dzaima alt+drag in sublime and extending is control+shift+arrow key

dzaima

@Downgoat alt+drag isn't working for me and control+shift+right extends by a word not a char, making the selection not a rectangle

Downgoat

not sure why I don't have any plugins for select or anything

you might have an old version of sublime

dzaima

04:41

@Downgoat right, updating

Downgoat

@dzaima oh i thought you're talking about up/down. You can just do shift arrow key, no?

quartata

@Doorknob For me at least by the time it gets to the point where I might consider cooking up something like that I can probably do a regex sub faster

When I'm just quickly deindenting visual block is great

@Downgoat not VS code or at least I haven't found it

HyperNeutrino

scontent.fyto1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/…

Downgoat

@quartata who said VSCode was a half-decent editor

quartata

~~who said anything other than vim was~~

dzaima

04:47

@Downgoat oh i just noticed that I'm doing shift+alt+down for downwards extending. Either way, letting go of alt every time to move right is pretty annoying

quartata

Atom has... other problems

Downgoat

yes this is why sublime is best

Doorknob

@quartata isn't it easier to deindent with <

Downgoat

vim for larger huge projects is unmanageable unless I use so many plugins I might as well use sublime..

dzaima

@Downgoat oh it seems to be shift+right mouse

quartata

04:50

@Doorknob meant more generally than vim

although there are similar tasks

@Downgoat really not worth it

Downgoat

@dzaima what OS are you using? it might be different

@quartata what isn't?

Pavel

@quartata VSCode supports it

dzaima

@Downgoat linux mint

Pavel

alt+shift+arrows

@Downgoat I did. VSCode is great.

ST is also great, mind you. I say they have different usecases.

Downgoat

@Pavel opls you can't call something 'great' when it has 30ms keyboard latency and takes 10 seconds to boot

Pavel

04:55

it does not

Downgoat

I dunno I find the whole UI very sluggish feeling

Pavel

This isn't Atom

I get no latency while typing and I have a decade old thinkpad

Downgoat

atom feels faster than VS code imo once booted

Pavel

lolno

Dennis

@Pavel I just installed it. It informed me that Microsoft wants me to send them "usage data". The opt out link (or so I thought) opens a website in my browser that explains how to open the settings file in VS Code and paste "telemetry.enableTelemetry": false into one of the settings files. I kinda want to uninstall it already.

Pavel

04:58

@Dennis The settings was my least favorite part

On the latest preview build, there's an actual UI for them

On the release build there's just a JSON you hand edit

Dennis

That's like when I tell my Google assistant to lock the screen, and it displays instructions to lock the screen. If I hand my hands free, I would have done so already.

quartata

@Downgoat 10 seconds to boot???

Pavel

.NET Core makes you set an environment variable for the telemetry optout

@quartata Back when I used atom it took 10 seconds because I had so many extensions

Downgoat

^ i am mixing up my slow electron apps

quartata

Oh we're talking about Atom nevermind

Downgoat

05:01

Though even with like Hyperterm where it doesn't take forever to boot

Pavel

VS Code is peculiar in that it is a fast electron app

Downgoat

Though even with like Hyperterm where it doesn't take forever to boot

Dennis

Atom and VS Code take the same time to boot for me (three seconds). Sublime opens instantly.

Downgoat

it is still very sluggish and often freezes/crashes when large amount of things are printed to stdout

Pavel

@Dennis Yeah, I use VS Code and Sublime for different tasks.

Downgoat

05:02

I'm kinda surprised I'm the one here arguing against JS/electron :P

Pavel

Sublime for quickly editing files, and VS Code for larger projects

@Downgoat Oh I am definitely against it

VS Code succeeds despite the electron

Dennis

Oh, I'm not using Sublime for anything. The font rendering is way too ugly.

Downgoat

:s

Dennis

Admittedly, that's a problem with GTK apps on this aged distro.

Pavel

I didn't even notice it was a gtk app

They covered it up pretty well

Downgoat

05:05

@Dennis sits back in macOS font rendering :')

I tried to switch to windows earlier this year

everything was fine but the font rendering hurt my eyes

also the absence of a good terminal emulator was another issue

Pavel

@Downgoat Did you try cmder?

Downgoat

yes

Pavel

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Downgoat

iTerm2 is just great and does all things

Dennis

Luckily, Google Chrome does its own font rendering, Qt apps are fine, and I don't really use anything else.

Pavel

05:07

And electron apps get Chrome's font rendering

ATaco

06:55

I've had an idea for the LDC

"RanJe"

Downgoat

@ATaco LDC?

ATaco

Language Design Challenge

gnu-nobody

what is that

Esolanging Fruit

yesterday, by Erik the Outgolfer

Language Design Challenge: Make a language with this concept at its core: Range

gnu-nobody

hey, how can i do lambda (insert variables here): (do stuff with those here) in a transpiled language? I could not find a way to add them to the language

repl.it/@_Nobody_/ugl-dev-0

Mayube

08:27

@ATaco Esplain?

ATaco

Tacit langauge, the only non-number datatype is a Range, which has two data points. A length, and an indexing function.

dzaima

08:43

@ATaco what do you mean by indexing function

ATaco

When you ask for range[5] it will give the value of f(5), assuming f is the indexing function.

dzaima

@ATaco so a range is just a thin wrapper around a function

ATaco

Yep.

I never said it wasn't a cheap solution.

But it does allow for things like range_a + range_b which creates a function that is the concatenation of two ranges.

dzaima

ldc language idea: all arrays are stored as deltas + start

Mr. Xcoder

09:02

That sounds neat :o

dzaima

unfortunately it doesn't go much further than making arr+1 O(1). Maybe instead of just subtraction, store any function and x_n fn n_(n+1)?

Mayube

Basic Sum-it parser is done :D

or uh.. lexer, I guess

Mr. Xcoder

09:24

I have a working lexer for a non-transpiled version of Physica but have no idea how to write a parser D:

Mayube

My lexer converts mountains to numbers, then my parser just needs to iterate through the "tokens" (numbers) and use them to index into an array of operations

dzaima

@Mayube your mountain range idea made me want to visualize Parenthetic. The Hello, World is ..boring

dzaima

09:44

brain-flaks Hello, World! is slightly less boring, but it's also not lossless

Mayube

I'm doing some debugging and then I'll write up a Hello, World! in Sum-it

dzaima

oh hey it fits viewably horizontally

Mayube

oh hey, first try at printing an ascii character, wasn't even counting what charcode I was pushing, managed to push H

Mayube

10:02

hmm, this is problematic

"He" so far is 791 bytes :P

Mayube

10:14

managed to golf it down a bit, realising how much "golfing potential" this language has (IE: bytecount will always be huge, but there's often room to reduce it)

I think it's impossible to create certain numbers (eg 5) from mountains

oh wait no

oh my lexer's just wrong :P

New Main Posts

11:02

0

Q: Unable to decode all information from Oracle RAW data

I have an application where I can upload files and add metadata to the file. This metadata information is stored in a database, but parts of the added information is encoded somehow (sadly I have no access to the source code). The raw representation of the metadata in the Oracle database is as f...

New Main Posts

11:32

1

Q: Codegolf Rainbow : Fun with Integer-Arrays

Introduction: (Source: Wikipedia) When we look at a rainbow it will always have the colors from top to bottom: Red; orange; yellow; green; blue; indigo; violet If we look at these individual rings, the red ring is of course bigger than the violet ring. In addition, it's also possible to have t...

code-golf number integer

0

Q: Codegolf Rainbow : Draw in Black-and-White

Introduction: (Source: Wikipedia) When we look at a rainbow it will always have the colors from top to bottom: Red; orange; yellow; green; blue; indigo; violet If we look at these individual rings, the red ring is of course bigger than the violet ring. In addition, it's also possible to have t...

code-golf string ascii-art number

ATaco

@ConorO'Brien I've been on the down-low for a while, but I'm getting active again.

ATaco

11:49

"Yay it incorrectly Parses!"

For some reason, can't imagine why, .NET doesn't have Jelly's SMBC encoding as a default Encoding option. Who knew?

Okx

12:44

For the "Fun with integer arrays" challenge I'm getting 99 on the test case [39525, 41278, 39333, 44444, 39502, 39599, 39699]. I'm using the formula (((4 * (n^2)) - n) + [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]. This results in for n=99 [39105, 39106, 39107, 39108, 39109, 39110, 39111], but the test case says n=98. Am I just using the wrong formula? It works for all other test cases

dzaima

@Okx the distances between the items increase with higher ns too

Okx

oh yeah, thanks

Beta Decay

13:00

Is it possible to alter this program to output Hello World! instead of Hello, World!

I understand the output of the comma is within +++[.>]

dzaima

@BetaDecay yes, though at the cost of 1 byte

Beta Decay

@dzaima Thanks, that's perfect!

18

A: Hello World 0.0!

Unary, 10197 1137672766964589547169964037018563746793726105983919528073581559828 bytes I'm surprised that no one's done this yet... It's too long to post here, but it's 1137672766964589547169964037018563746793726105983919528073581559828 zeroes. Or, more easily read: ~1067 zeroes. Thanks to @d...

Fatalize

13:18

> Thanks to @dzaima for saving 10^197 bytes

Thanks indeed…

dzaima

15:15

oh yay canvas stepping has xss

Mr. Xcoder

New Main Posts

15:33

-1

Q: Derive a normal distribution from two numbers

For a loadtest I have to figure meaningful numbers for the maximum number of requests per hour and minute. The only thing I have is the number of requests per working day (which is a timeframe of 14 hours). The easiest (but most inaccurate) would be just to take the average but I think it follow...

probability-theory

Skidsdev

Hey @Adám, is Dyalog still hiring? ;)

Adám

@Skidsdev Yes. Send your CV to careers@

Mr. Xcoder

I've noticed that we have many KOTHs but few math challenges lately. I've been stuck with my silver badge on the latter at ~390/400 for weeks :|

dzaima

@Mr.Xcoder I wanted to complain that I've been stuck at 99x/1000 for gold code-golf for a couple months but it looks like I've just got it :D

Mr. Xcoder

Lol your about me is so funny... and relatable :P

dzaima

15:54

I love messing with html

Adám

@dzaima Didn't you mess with CSS in this case?

dzaima

@Adám no, what I did was replace all divs and spans with <a>s with regex :p

Adám

@dzaima Oh ⍨

J. Sallé

@dzaima yoooooooo if you manage to get that dark theme working, I'd love to have it

Skidsdev

@Adám Hmm on second thought, how open are Dyalog to remote employment? Because Bramley is definitely too far for me to commute, and I still have 7 months left on my lease :P

Adám

16:04

@Skidsdev Very open. Many core people are not in Bramley. Where are you located?

Skidsdev

Currently Sheffield, although I have plans (not set in stone) to move to Canada next March

Adám

@dzaima *{display:flex}head,script{display:none} gives an "interesting" side-scroll experience…

dzaima

@J.Sallé the theme I'm using is a somewhat modified version of an old version of this

Adám

@Skidsdev OK, you're in the UK. Then you could visit HQ every once in a while. Where about in Canada? (I used to work for Dyalog while living in Montreal.)

J. Sallé

@dzaima yay, that just changed my life. Also, Stylus of xStyle?

dzaima

16:07

@J.Sallé no idea what's the 2nd one, I'm using stylus

J. Sallé

@dzaima I'll check it out

dzaima

my own crappy PPCG-specific style is this, no idea how much I changed of the SO dark theme to make it work though

Skidsdev

@Adám London Ontario, couple hours south of Toronto, and yeah I could definitely visit HQ semi-frequently, just not viable to commute every day

J. Sallé

@dzaima ah, nice! Thanks! I just don't use bright themes anymore when I can avoid them

Adám

@Skidsdev Right. I currently live in London (UK) and it is also too far to commute. But Dyalog has a big house in Basingstoke where people visiting can stay, so I'm there every week, Monday-Thursday. H.PWiz (who also lives a bit too far away) is staying there right now too.

Skidsdev

16:17

Sounds perfectly fine with me, I'll shoot an email in now

Mr. Xcoder

@Adám H.P works for Dyalog?!

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder He's a summer intern.

dzaima

@J.Sallé I often just don't use things that don't have dark themes. I wasted probably ~4 hours trying to figure out how to make Processings IDEs scrollbars dark-themed :p

Mr. Xcoder

Oh, so that's what this message is about?

J. Sallé

@dzaima D: I feel your pain

Adám

16:19

@Mr.Xcoder Yes, he was in his room upstairs. I was down in the kitchen.

@Skidsdev What kind of position are you interested in?

Skidsdev

@Adám Overall I'm pretty flexible, I've not really had the chance in my professional career to specialise. Although in personal projects I tend to enjoy working on libraries/frameworks and automation tools the most

Adám

@Skidsdev What language(s)?

Skidsdev

My primary ones tend to be C#, PHP, JS and Python, although I've dabbled in around 10 or so others too

Adám

@Skidsdev While not strict, we have three main types of programmers: The Devt Team develop the interpreter and related stuff in C and C++. The Tools Group maintains and develops APL tools, and help customers with APL. And then we have interns who are (relatively) new to APL, and tend to work on a few side projects. Marinus e.g. made Py'n'APL and H.PWiz is working on Jupyter support and materials.

@Skidsdev Do you know any APL?

Skidsdev

@Adám Not really, I've read quite a few of your explanations of various APL concepts, but I've never written any APL myself

Adám

16:29

@Skidsdev Then I'll have to teach you! At Dyalog, everyone must know (at least basic) APL, even accountants, social media people, etc.

Skidsdev

@Adám Sounds good to me! :D

Adám

@Skidsdev What's best for you, mornings or nights?

Skidsdev

@Adám Generally nights. As of today I'm no longer working though, so really any time works :P

Adám

@Skidsdev OK. This week has a bit of an odd schedule for me, but I should be available after 20 every night. Also Thursday from 10-noon. Just ping me.

quartata

@Mr.Xcoder hahahahaha

Skidsdev

16:37

@Adám Sounds good. Should I still send that email or should I wait until I have some APL under my belt first?

Adám

@Skidsdev Go ahead and send the email. If you want, you can mention that you have arranged to learn APL with me.

J. Sallé

16:51

Yo @dzaima, do you know how could I change the vote icons with that alteration you made on the script? I've tried altering the .vote-up-off thing but it doesn't seem to be changing at all

dzaima

@dzaima oh wow, I just tried loading up the latest SO dark version and it yeah, I've changed a lot

@J.Sallé I have no idea, I'm happy with the gliders from the gradscript

I should just probably make a gh repo with the SO dark + my PPCG modifications

Beta Decay

17:45

I love it :D

Poke

@NewMainPosts wat

Beta Decay

dzaima

18:06

aright here's my PPCG dark theme

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Most distinct Turing-complete character subsets (Inspired by Fewest (distinct) characters for Turing Completeness) code-challenge restricted-source Challenge: In any language you choose, find the greatest number of distinct and disjoint subsets of characters allowed in that language (i.e. no ...

dzaima

note that I'm do expert at anything at all so stuff may be ugly, but feel free to PR/bug me (though as I say that I'm gonna be unavailable for an hour or so :p)

Mr. Xcoder

18:19

Tampermonkey tells me that your userscript is invalid :||

Oh because it only accepts JS files for some reason??? @dzaima How can I make tampermonkey use a CSS file / how do I use your css?

J. Sallé

@Mr.Xcoder I'm using Stylus

dzaima

@Mr.Xcoder ^

Mr. Xcoder

Ok...

This thing?

Skidsdev

Stylish also works for user-css files

dzaima

@Skidsdev it has a bad linter and has bad privacy setting by default and uses outdated stuff though

Mr. Xcoder

18:26

@Mr.Xcoder Hmm... I don't think that works in Safari

Is there any such service that does work with Safari?

dzaima

@Mr.Xcoder you could probably find a usercss to userscript converter somewhere

anyway gtg

Mr. Xcoder

K thanks, I'll try that

Pavel

19:03

> what would you rather do, be homeless or learn APL
> now that we have evidence they are mutually exclusive
~~ quartata

5

Beta Decay

Do you get a free APL keyboard?

Pavel

I hope so

Beta Decay

Huh, turns out you can't buy them anymore

Adám

@Pavel What?

@BetaDecay When?

@BetaDecay Where?

Pavel

@Adám ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Beta Decay

19:17

@Adám 1968

When you learn APL

ooo

Adám

@BetaDecay Layouts are free. Physical keyboards are for sale and available at our office. Yes, interns get to use an APL keyboard if they want to.

Beta Decay

Do you get to keep it?

Pavel

@Adám Do they get to keep it though?

Ninja'd

Adám

@BetaDecay @Pavel Sorry for delay in answering. CXO says: I suppose that can be negotiated

quartata

@Pavel this was in a private Steam chat, where the hell did you get this

@Adám in context it was referring to your hospitality for the Dyalog interns

Adám

19:26

@quartata Oh, you said that for real‽

Pavel

@quartata Riker put it in a public discord

quartata

@Adám yes

@Pavel oh

Adám

@quartata Haha. Yeah, I guess its true.

Beta Decay

@Adám Nice use of the interrobang :D

Adám

@BetaDecay Thanks. I prefer it when actually applicable.

Beta Decay

19:32

Those examples seem bizarrely matched. Going from You're buying a new hat‽ to You're dying‽

quartata

you're buying a new hat??!?!?!?!! how dare you!

Adám

@quartata *how dare you‽ (← rhetorical question)

Oh oh, now I just have to write this:

— Is this a rhetorical question?

Skidsdev

No

Adám

@Skidsdev Jokes aside. Ready for a quick intro to APL?

Skidsdev

Sure!

Adám

19:37

@Skidsdev Let's head over to the APL Orchard so we don't clutter TNB.

Thomas Ward

drops into the channel to wreak havoc, then disappears (read: good afternoon all)

Adám

Announcement: Anyone else interested in a quick APL intro ^^

Beta Decay

Free keyboard?

Erik the Outgolfer

better, free money?

Adám

@BetaDecay Do you want to become a Dyalog intern?

Beta Decay

19:42

No, I just want a keyboard

Adám

@BetaDecay Just order one then!

Beta Decay

Why is it £130?

Pavel

Feb 27 at 17:35, by ngn

@Pavel They are. When you order any custom hardware in small amounts, it ends up being expensive, unfortunately. If you know how to configure your keyboard, you probably don't need them. Some customers buy them because they hired APL newbies or just because the keyboards look and feel cool.

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Graph 5-Coloring Honestly, I can't believe this hasn't already been asked, but here it is Background Given a simple undirected planar (the graph can be drawn in the plane without intersections) graph, it is a proven theorem that the graph is 4-colorable, a term we will explore in a bit. Howeve...

Beta Decay

@Pavel Hm :/

Erik the Outgolfer

19:53

@NewSandboxedPosts that déjà vu though

Zacharý

20:45

Some sophomore at our school ran through a glass window, thinking it was a door >_<

Is @Skidsdev @Mayube?

Skidsdev

Yes

I changed my name over on StackOverflow and forgot it was network-wide :P

Zacharý

Is it Mayube possible to change it here only?

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Golf me some Golf code-golf game Write a program to play Golf solitaire! (I'm somewhat surprised that I haven't seen this pun yet.) How to play Golf uses a standard 52 card deck. Play begins with 7 stacks of 5 cards each, one card forming the foundation, and the remaining 16 cards forming the...

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