The Nineteenth Byte

Zacharý

4:00 PM

Repeating is X/Y ... that sounds familiar

dzaima

I'm thinking about charcoal-ish shape drawing & cursor logic, but not sure whether or not it'll be that useful

Anonymous

@dzaima Next add 3D stuff so you can generate trefunge programs :P

Cows quack

what would be the major differences between canvas and charcoal (seeing how similar they are)?

dzaima

@Cowsquack it'd be stack-based is the biggest difference, and there's probably not going to be a main canvas as in Charcoal

@Mego heh, adding 3D would pretty much require rewriting everything (and a problem would be that there aren't 3D characters, so mnemonic palindromizators like ╫ would be impossible) :p

Cows quack

is the source on GH yet?

dzaima

4:05 PM

@Cowsquack I want to put in on GH, that's why I was asking for a name

user202729

@dzaima Create characters yourself, like how Mathematica did.

Anonymous

@dzaima Do 3D internally, and then flatten to multiple files (or whatever trefunge does)

user202729

And then create fonts yourself...

dzaima

@user202729 I don't have a 3D monitor though

user202729

Emulate one.

dzaima

4:06 PM

@user202729 and I can't see in 4D to be able to see the whole 3D shape at once :p

Zacharý

Trefunge uses line feeds if I remember correctly

Anonymous

@dzaima Get 4D glasses

user202729

Yes...

@dzaima Emulate 4D view.

wizzwizz4

4D -> 2D mapping is hard.

user202729

But possible. There are MagicCube4D, Tetraspace (if that counts), 4D toys and (in the future) Miegakure.

PhiNotPi

4:09 PM

KOTH idea based on a commercial I just saw for the "DealDash" ~~auction~~ scam website.

user202729

Doing Roman reverse polish notation in Jelly

Zacharý

Map 4D->3D, then 3D->2D.

user202729

I hope Jelly has debug flag...

Oh... I forgot to append numbers to the register.

Mr. Xcoder

@user202729 God bless my eyes

dzaima

@user202729 that unreleased Canvas, 10 bytes: Ｗ｛¹％］：Ｄ≠｝¹

just went trough the entire project replacing Art with Canvas. Hoping nothing breaks

user202729

4:14 PM

Done, 80 bytes

I VTC'ed it, so I can't submit now.

Mr. Xcoder

@user202729 I don't think you are allowed to take input as a list

user202729

But I'm not going to reopen, for reasons I said inthe comment.

PhiNotPi

The way this competition works is that each "bid" you place on an item only raises the price by 1 cent, but you have to pay 12 cents to place a bid. Thus leading to a scenario where the website racks in 13x what they say the item actually sold for, and it's basically a lottery as to who gets the item.

user202729

@Mr.Xcoder 82 bytes, with parsing

dzaima

oh right, I finished that challenge in APL yesterday (without internet then :/) but can't post now :/

Mr. Xcoder

4:16 PM

@user202729 Ok some of those µs seem highly redundant. Let's see

wizzwizz4

@dzaima Why can't you post?

Mr. Xcoder

@wizzwizz4 It's closed

Cows quack

@PhiNotPi so the winner of the koth would be the one who gets the item?

Mr. Xcoder

Ok it's the first time I see -¤® chained in a Jelly program

user202729

Why is SOGL shorter...?

wizzwizz4

4:18 PM

@Mr.Xcoder Oh. :-(

user202729

@Mr.Xcoder ®ṫ-¤ is 2 last items of register.

dzaima

@user202729 SOGL uses the fact that it is stack-based and just evals the commands

Mr. Xcoder

@user202729 I understand the code, but You have a unique manner of writing Jelly (compliment)

PhiNotPi

@Cowsquack no, it would be the person who ends up with the highest net worth. The item has some known value. Some people will lose money, one guy will make money (maybe). You could not bid and get a score of 0.

It would be an iterated KOTH.

Cows quack

ah, so multiple items would be held in auction

PhiNotPi

4:21 PM

So I'm kinda curious what the strategy would be. I have the feeling that, as the number of people competing increases, the winning strategy might shift into one in which you shouldn't play.

Anonymous

@PhiNotPi It would also depend on how many people chose not to play

Cows quack

how do the turns work?

stasoid

@WheatWizard Can you unfreeze polyglot room plz?

PhiNotPi

I'm not entirely sure how to do turns because in real life they have a timer that resets every time someone bids. Thus the only winners are the people who snipe using an auto-bidder.

Anonymous

@PhiNotPi Probably just a random number of turns in [5, 100]

Mr. Xcoder

4:23 PM

@stasoid He's not a mod... ?

Wheat Wizard

@stasoid Sure

Mr. Xcoder

@WheatWizard How? I thought you had to be a mod to unfreeze rooms?

Anonymous

And then maybe don't disclose the number of turns remaining until there are 3 left or something

wizzwizz4

@stasoid Unfrozen.

Polyglot Development

A chat room for developing polyglots, especially for [this PPC...

@WheatWizard Beat you! ;-)

Wheat Wizard

@Mr.Xcoder Good point

user202729

4:24 PM

I started feeling that I don't understand my code...

stasoid

thank you

wizzwizz4

@user202729 Welcome to the club! We're glad to have you. :-)

2

user202729

ị“+-×÷”   ;”/   v®ṫ-¤   ®ṖṖ¤;©

4Ḷ   ⁵*   p1,5   P€

“IVXLCDM”iÐ€   ị¢   µ   I   N‘Ṡ   æ.   µ   ®;©

Ḳ   µ   “+-*/”W€   i⁸   Ñ  ⁸Ç¤  ¹ ?   µ€   ṛ®   Ḋ

Properly indented

Anonymous

31 mins ago, by Mego

@user202729 I'll give you a cookie if you can segfault Actually

Anonymous

I've decided to offer a real reward: I'll give the first person to successfully make Actually (on TIO) segfault a 100 rep bounty (on this challenge).

4

user202729

4:27 PM

Suggest adding to infinite bounty. (or you did that already?)

Anonymous

Using the Python eval is forbidden

user202729

@NewInfiniteBounties

Anonymous

@user202729 I'm going to, but first I need to work out the terms

user202729

I don't know {Actually}.

PhiNotPi

I kinda want to see it play out, to where there is a natural stopping point. The hard cap would be that the bid amount can't surpass what the item is worth.

But one problem is that bots will have strategies that no rational person would do, and totally screw up the game for everyone by just driving the price up regardless of how much money it costs them.

Mr. Xcoder

4:30 PM

@Mego Out of curiosity, do you have a working piece of Actually code that performs a Segfault?

user202729

I think no.

I found out ZZ works for W€ too.

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder Nope. I'm not even sure if it's possible.

Zacharý

Is Actually written in Python?

Anonymous

@PhiNotPi To combat that, you could make bidding have a cost

Anonymous

@Zacharý Yes, Python 3

user202729

4:32 PM

BTW... why does the Jelly code segfault?

(the one recurse infintely)

Mr. Xcoder

5 mins ago, by Mego

Using the Python eval is forbidden

Zacharý

I know you can't use the python eval

Mr. Xcoder

Then...

PhiNotPi

@Mego bidding does have a cost, that's the whole point. It costs 12 cents to raise the item price by 1 cent.

user202729

What about actually eval that contains python eval? (forbidden too)

Anonymous

4:34 PM

@PhiNotPi Oh, I misread

Anonymous

@user202729 That's obviously also forbidden

Anonymous

As is using string manipulation commands to change a non-F0 character into F0 and then actually-evaling that

DJMcMayhem

@Mego Sounds like a fun challenge.

/me goes off to learn Actually

wizzwizz4

TIL HyperNeutrino used to be called Alex L.

Anonymous

@wizzwizz4 His GitHub profile still has that name

PhiNotPi

4:36 PM

What would y'alls reaction be if I changed my username?

Anonymous

@PhiNotPi kick

user202729

@PhiNotPi Depends on the username

wizzwizz4

@PhiNotPi Check Tetris challenge to see what you changed it to.

betseg

Can Python even segfault

Anonymous

If you do change your username, it should be to something super heinous, like "PHP did nothing wrong"

Anonymous

4:38 PM

@betseg Yes

user202729

Any idea how to golf my Jelly code? The i⁸, ṛ®, ⁸Ç¤ and µ's seems highly redundant. “IVXLCDM” too, but the closest I can get is “Ė]żġ’ṃØA.

Mr. Xcoder

Lol I smashed my keyboard with Actually on Tio and got this o.O

Anonymous

Python 2.7 segfaults on 32-bit Cygwin all the time for me, for some reason

wizzwizz4

@Mego Windows 10?

Anonymous

Yep

betseg

4:39 PM

@Mr.Xcoder my name returns 0

wizzwizz4

@Mego That's a contributing factor.

Zacharý

WHy does python even segfault

betseg

wut, ⌠×⌡?

wizzwizz4

@Zacharý If Python comes across something unexpected, it will do something the programmers didn't expect.

Often that will result in a pointer containing an invalid value.

That will almost always result in a SEGFAULT.

Unexpected stuff that might occur includes a DLL not being sane.

Mr. Xcoder

@betseg Note that there is randomness involved

Did you know that Mego returns exp(n) in Actually when given a single integer as input?

betseg

4:42 PM

@Mr.Xcoder Huh? Doesn't show anything different when it's ran multiple times

Anonymous

@betseg `× is a function. That's shorthand for ⌠×⌡. You push it to a list, so when it is printed, its __repr__ gets called, which returns a textual representation (the long-form code needed to push it)

Mr. Xcoder

@betseg Huh? Run it again.

wizzwizz4

@betseg The first three lines and the last two remain the same.

Otherwise it picks a random number.

It then outputs the first n lines of:

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder That's because M is a no-op on integers, e is exp(n), g is a no-op on a single integer, and o is a no-op on integers.

Zacharý

Can anybody explain how that two byte Jelly code from earlier segfaults?

wizzwizz4

4:43 PM

Mr. Xcoder

@Mego I know why, I looked into at the docs

betseg

Then I got extremely lucky, it output the same thing 4 times in a row

1/4096

Mr. Xcoder

Suddenly everyone is interested in Actually :P

betseg

Bcoz rep

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder Well yeah, there's rep on the line :P

Cows quack

4:45 PM

@PhiNotPi at what price does the auction start at?

New Bounties With No Deadlines

0

A: List of bounties with no deadline

100 rep for a segfault in Actually I'm not sure if this is possible. If it is, I'll be impressed. Terms The program must segfault on TIO, with no input given (a stack overflow error like this one doesn't count - it must be a true segfault) Use of ≡ (the Python eval command) is forbidden The b...

Anonymous

My evil plan to get people to use my language is working! Muahahahaha!

wizzwizz4

@Mego Where is the documentation for the language?

Mr. Xcoder

@wizzwizz4 github.com/Mego/Seriously/blob/master/docs/commands.txt

wizzwizz4

@Mr.Xcoder Thank you.

Mr. Xcoder

4:47 PM

np

wizzwizz4

Wait... that's Seriously not Actually.

Mr. Xcoder

No, it's the same

betseg

Seriously?

Sorry

Mr. Xcoder

@Mego Bug or feature?

@wizzwizz4 Go to tio, select "Actually" and then click "Actually". It will point you to "Mego/Seriously"

Zacharý

Max representable integer?

wizzwizz4

4:49 PM

@Mr.Xcoder Oh.

I thought they behaved differently.

Mr. Xcoder

@Zacharý Yeah but I didn't think it's supposed to work like that

@wizzwizz4 They do behave differently. The old seriously is in branch "v1"

Cows quack

@PhiNotPi also can you bid on an item even when you don't have enough money to buy that item?

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder Quirk of Python with limited memory available. Integers are arbitrary precision, but TIO strictly limits the available memory, so there's an effective maximum imposed by the environment

Zacharý

Woah

Mr. Xcoder

Triple factorial, what would you expect?

Anonymous

4:52 PM

Also factorial is implemented in a really unoptimized manner, so ! fails on some inputs because limited memory

Zacharý

Plug in 4 and 5, they're smaller

Mr. Xcoder

Because of Environmental restrictions, that's what I was saying above.

Anonymous

@Zacharý That's because it overflows the available memory, so it silently gives up and just returns 4!! and 5!!, respectively

wizzwizz4

How do you execute a function literal in Actually?

Anonymous

@wizzwizz4 ƒ

wizzwizz4

4:54 PM

@Mego Thanks.

PhiNotPi

@Cowsquack starts at zero, so first person to place a bid pays 12 cents to raise the price to 1 cent.

Leaky Nun

I heard pyth

Mr. Xcoder

Yeah you did. But I forgot to write the CMC >_<

I miss the days I was learning Pyth and you were telling me to stop using V :) @LeakyNun

Anonymous

A segfault in Pyth is probably easier, because it doesn't employ the give-up-and-NOP-when-things-go-wrong strategy like Actually

Leaky Nun

lol

wizzwizz4

4:57 PM

How do you duplicate what's on top of the stack in Actually? I need to use a value more than once.

Zacharý

Are you able to catch a segfault in Python?

Mr. Xcoder

CMC – virtual brownie points for doing it in Actually or Pyth – Output the number of ways of writing n, a given positive integer given as input, as a sum of 5 squares. (related: OEIS A000132)

wizzwizz4

@Zacharý Yes, but not Pythonicly.

Zacharý

Explain ^

Mr. Xcoder

Should be fairly easy in Pyth. Waiting for @Leaky

wizzwizz4

4:58 PM

@Zacharý Look at ctypes.

It lets you break Python.

trichoplax

@Mr.Xcoder Does zero count as a square for this?

PhiNotPi

@Cowsquack I'm not sure how much initial money I'll give each player. I suppose I could make a system where you're not allowed to bid if it would cause you to go negative at the end.

wizzwizz4

@PhiNotPi Going negative knocks you out of the tournament.

Mr. Xcoder

@trichoplax No.

trichoplax

I heard you the 1st time :)

Mr. Xcoder

5:00 PM

I don't know why I posted twice :| sorry

trichoplax

I have days like that...

wizzwizz4

Who here likes Block.ly?

PhiNotPi

Also, looks like the real-life version has a thing where you can pay a "buy it now" price to get refunded your bids... not into money just that you can replace those bids for free on another item.

Mr. Xcoder

Please forget about my CMC above. Too late to delete. From now on, I won't answer any potential questions regarding it. facepalm

PhiNotPi

Of course that buy it now price is more than the intrinsic value of the item.

trichoplax

5:02 PM

@Mr.Xcoder Do you mean OEIS A025429 instead then?

wizzwizz4

44 secs ago, by Mr. Xcoder

Please forget about my CMC above. Too late to delete. From now on, I won't answer any potential questions regarding it. facepalm

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder Actually, 10 bytes: ;R♂²5@∙♂Σc

trichoplax

Thanks. I was typing during those 44 seconds and neglected to check for new messages before pressing Enter...

Anonymous

([1, n], squares, 5th Cartesian power, sums, count n in sums)

Anonymous

Uses a grotesque amount of memory

Mr. Xcoder

5:06 PM

;o that's a terrible amount of overhead, but it works

dzaima

Canvas is now on GitHub. Not much on the interpreter (fixing that soon), but it's there.

Mr. Xcoder

Yay I love the dark theme. Will probably learn it if @dzaima documents it well (also don't forget "Compatibility mode" for us, Safari users :P)

dzaima

@Mr.Xcoder I plan on doing something like pyth does

Mr. Xcoder

Yeah I have been loving that search bar ever since I started learning Pyth

dzaima

also, should I put a dark theme like that on SOGLOnline? I realised now that I'm using a style I made for that :p

If I converted this into something pretty like what Pyth has and had a simple introduction page with basic examples, would that be enough docs?

Mr. Xcoder

5:23 PM

@dzaima I think so

FlipTack

7:05 PM

@Mego is that even possible, seeing as Actually is written in Python?

Mr. Xcoder

@FlipTack Python can perform segfaults.

Zacharý

There was a discussion on how Python segfaults

We got some in Jelly

Conor O'Brien

@EriktheOutgolfer tbh the same could be said about most algorithms...

Ørjan Johansen

@WheatWizard Looking at your deleted palindrome answer, it seems to me that Dennis's counterexample doesn't disprove your recursion - but the resulting formula from it should have div(s-1)2. However, I also don't see why the recursion should hold in general, even though it does for that example.

dzaima

7:20 PM

can people with unusual browsers test if this outputs 4 upon running? If async doesn't work on the browser it should theoretically say a message in the console explaining what's happened, though I have no way of testing that.

Ørjan Johansen

@dzaima Doesn't work for me, stubbornly still on IE :P

Erik the Outgolfer

well, IE is now obsolete :P

Ørjan Johansen

(Mostly because it doesn't even manage to put the code in, I think.)

Erik the Outgolfer

try it on Edge

dzaima

@ØrjanJohansen anything in the console (if IE even has that?)

Erik the Outgolfer

7:22 PM

hm, seems to work on Edge

Conor O'Brien

@Mego What does ≡ do in actually?

Ørjan Johansen

@dzaima It does, and no.

Luis Mendo

I'll never join you!

Ørjan Johansen

@EriktheOutgolfer He was asking for unusual browsers, I really just answered as a joke.

I would probably be on Edge if I hadn't hated it the two times I tried it. Otherwise, well, I'll probably change to something once things I actually care about become unusable.

(Just before new year might be a bad time to tempt fate with that statement.)

dzaima

@Mr.Xcoder does that work for you?

Mr. Xcoder

7:30 PM

@dzaima It does output 4.

dzaima

@Mr.Xcoder yay for regex!

now hopefully that's all of browser compatibility I'll have to deal with.

Mr. Xcoder

@dzaima I get an error though (in the console), but it doesn't seem to affect the functionality

> SyntaxError: Unexpected keyword 'function'

dzaima

@Mr.Xcoder any line numbers?

Mr. Xcoder

Canvas:19:535

And this:

> Invalid CSS property declaration at: * (line 36)

dzaima

@Mr.Xcoder yeah I don't CSS so that's just gonna stay that way

Adám

7:34 PM

CMC: Current year. E.g. 2017 or 2018. (You may use system time or GMT.)

dzaima

@Adám SOGL, 3 bytes: uSK

Ørjan Johansen

@WheatWizard OK the recursion doesn't work. Here's a truly breaking counterexample: 123141321

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám 05AB1E, 2 bytes: žg

Mr. Xcoder

@Adám Gaia, 2 bytes ∂y

Conor O'Brien

@Mego Also, is there a way to convert a string to an actually function?

Adám

7:36 PM

@dzaima Can you do it equally short in APL?

dzaima

@Adám I don't know of any date-ish built-ins in APL

Adám

@dzaima Try ⎕TS (Time Stamp).

Conor O'Brien

@Adám J, 6 bytes: 0{6!:0

Mr. Xcoder

@Adám APL (Dyalog Classic), 6 bytes ⎕TS[1]

dzaima

⊃⎕TS - practically the same thing as my SOGL answer - uS is a datestuff array and K gets the first item

Adám

7:39 PM

@Mr.Xcoder You're outgolfed by 33% ^

dzaima

@Mr.Xcoder 1⌷⎕TS is a golfier way of that

Mr. Xcoder

Ok guys, just a newbie!

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder I didn't mean to shame you, only to provide a learning experience.

Mr. Xcoder

I know lol ಠ_ಠ

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám "you've been outgolfed" isn't usually an insult :p

Conor O'Brien

7:41 PM

hmmmmmmmmmm

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer True, but better safe than sorry.

Mr. Xcoder

... says Erik the Outgolfer :P

Leaky Nun

@Mr.Xcoder Pyth, 18 bytes: lf&qlT5.AmsI@d2T./

Mr. Xcoder

@LeakyNun I had lf&.AmsI@d2Tq5lT./

Leaky Nun

lol

Mr. Xcoder

7:48 PM

So basically the exact same

But it should be golfable

Zacharý

∂y oh god that's a weird coincidence.

Mr. Xcoder

It's not. The solution was pretty straight-forward :P

But I expected Leaky to outgolf me

Zacharý

I mean how it looks like a parital differential

Mr. Xcoder

Oh. >_<

Conor O'Brien

CMC: write two programs P1 and P2 such that they share no characters, P1 prints P2, P2 prints P1, and each program is at least a character long. Shortest combined length wins

Mr. Xcoder

7:55 PM

@ConorO'Brien It would be good on Main

Conor O'Brien

really? ok I'll sandbox it lol

Erik the Outgolfer

hm, kinda dupe-ish, except that this requires P1 and P2 to not share any char

Conor O'Brien

dupe of what?

Erik the Outgolfer

I'd say more "related"

cyclic quines

Conor O'Brien

35

Q: Golf a mutual quine

Using two languages of your choice, write the smallest “mutual quine” you can. That is, write a program P in language A that outputs the source code for a program Q in language B, such that the output of program Q is identical to the source code for P. Empty files don't count, nor do "read the ...

close to this

Mr. Xcoder

7:59 PM

@LeakyNun lf&q5lT.AsIM@R2T./ (alternative 18-byter)

And a nicer alternative: lf&qlT5qTfsI@Y2T./

Haha, outgolfed myself and Leaky Nun: lfqlBT,fsI@Y2T5./ (17 bytes)

New Sandboxed Posts

8:15 PM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Mutually Exclusive Quines code-challenge quine Your challenge is simple. Write two programs that share no character which output each other. Example Two programs P and Q are mutually exclusive quines if: P outputs Q Q outputs P There is no character c which belongs to both P and Q Each prog...

Pavel

8:40 PM

@Doorknob tio.run/##S0tMTv3/X0/ZIzUnJ19HITy/…

Mr. Xcoder

@Dennis I think I have solved the issues with this answer. I somehow managed to overlook Felipe's comment. Can you please undelete it, if you don't find any other issues with it?

Actually I should have flagged it for moderator attention instead. Eh, sorry for pinging you personally. But I won't raise a flag now, don't want to clutter mod flag threads. Anyway, will keep this in mind in the future

Dennis

Done.

Mr. Xcoder

Thank you!

betseg

9:00 PM

🎆

I'm in 2018. AMA!

Adám

@betseg Is 2018 as bad as 2017 was?

flawr

@betseg How long is 2018 gonna take?

Adám

@betseg So, is it a leap year or not?

betseg

@Adám yes

@flawr no idea

@Adám supercomputers still working

Adám

@betseg Oh, ok. Keep us posted.

flawr

9:07 PM

@betseg Since you can communicate with the past, is there anything we should do to change what has happened?

Zacharý

What does AMA stand for? And you're discussing the leap second, right?

flawr

@Zacharý ask me anything

betseg

@Zacharý ask me anything

Zacharý

Ninja'd

flawr

@betseg are you sure you live in the future, and not in the past? :D

betseg

9:09 PM

@flawr it's all relative

@flawr floss

flawr

@betseg I'm not gonna continue this thread in reddit style :)

betseg

Reasons why turkey is more advanced #7553: we're in 2018 while eu and us are in 2017

Zacharý

Or is it Reasonswhyturkeyismoreadvanced :P

Adám

@betseg Hm, is Israel almost thrice as advanced, being in 5778?

betseg

Hmmm

Zacharý

9:15 PM

@Adám, explain please ?

betseg

Different calendar

Conor O'Brien

I was thinking of a challenge that's sort of like cops and robbers. The cops would write a language that is seemingly not TC, and the robbers would somehow prove that it was TC (e.g. via counterexample, like BF simulator; via proof, e.g. by reduction; or by writing a program that converts a TC language to the source language). Would this by within the site's scope?

Zacharý

I meant to say what is it based upon

Adám

@Zacharý According to the Jewish calendar, we are currently in year 5778.

@Zacharý Creation of the world according to Biblical chronology.

Ørjan Johansen

@ConorO'Brien That rings a bell, are you sure it hasn't been done?

Conor O'Brien

9:21 PM

76

Q: Create a programming language that only appears to be unusable

Robbers' challenge thread is here. Cops' challenge: Design a programming language that appears to be unusable for programming, but admits computation (or at least completion of the task) through some non-obvious mechanism. You should design a simple programming language that reads code from an ...

sort of like this, but with "TC" replacing "unusable", and without a specific task

Ørjan Johansen

Oh right, that was probably what I was remembering.

Mr. Xcoder

According to kurzgesagt, we should be in year 12018

Esolanging Fruit

@Mr.Xcoder Or 12017, if new year hasn't happened for you yet

betseg

12017.5±0.5

Ørjan Johansen

@ConorO'Brien Some of the cop answers to that would still apply.

Well, would have.

Adám

9:28 PM

@Mr.Xcoder But… what is it based on?

betseg

2018 + 10000

Adám

@betseg Right, I get that, but why 1E4?

betseg

So that the prehistoric ages won't be prehistoric

Adám

@betseg Availability of written history does not depend on which number we assign to the year.

Mr. Xcoder

@Adám If you browse through the channel you’ll see a video explaining that. They claim that, instead of counting years from the birth of Jesus Christ (The standard Gregorian Calendar), we should start counting from the moment human kind started to evolve

betseg

9:31 PM

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I didn't make it

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder Uh, and they believe that was exactly 1E4 years before the alleged birth of Jesus?

Mr. Xcoder

@Adám Not precisely, but roughly 10000 years before. The reasoning is very well explained here

The reason for choosing another day-0 for human year numbering would be counting from a point that represents us all as a species, rather than from the birth of an entity which belongs to a single belief.

Conor O'Brien

relevant xkcd

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder But in fact they choose a round number which clearly points to a specific (minority) belief system.

Zacharý

Birth of Mesoptamia, the first civilization, rather than an approximation of our evolution?

Or we just all use unix time

Mr. Xcoder

9:38 PM

@Adám I never claimed that I agree with their choice of day 0, I just pointed out why they would want to find another such “milestone”

betseg

@Zacharý Still based on Gregorian calendar, 0 is 1 January

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder Ah OK. Personally, I don't in any way feel significantly different regarding year 5 or year -5. I think it is silly to think that the mere number we assign makes people categorise something as "our times" versus "old times".

Zacharý

It's the start that matters, not the specific date (which was probably chosen for OCD or something)

Adám

@Zacharý Nah, clearly for practicality. However, the very idea is its own doom. Being for all practical purposes equivalent to the current common calendar, there is really no reason to switch.

betseg

When did some guy put the year -1 as Jesus' birthday?

Adám

9:41 PM

The fact that people in the 70s, 80s, 90s called their times so, did that make them look "down" at the 1800s?

Zacharý

If anything, the BIRTH of that new system of time-keeping, since it wouldn't be based upon any old calendars (hopefully)

betseg

We should switch to a new leap year system

Mr. Xcoder

In my opinion, the start doesn’t matter that much, but rather what we do now and in the future. Although we should not forget our history, we should definitely move on regardless of the past. That’s why I don’t get the point of counting years in the first place, other than being able to schedule meetings and events and stuff

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder Maybe we should do like the Celsius scale, and right now should be 0, last year -1 etc, next year +1, etc.

betseg

@betseg current system: every %4==0 except %100==0 except %400==0, proposed by some people: every %4==0 except %128==0.

Not only it's simpler, it's also more accurate for next few millennia.

Adám

9:45 PM

@Mr.Xcoder It is surely very useful to judge when bridges need maintenance so they won't collapse.

Mr. Xcoder

other than being able to schedule meetings and events and stuff — I am quite sure we would deal with it anyway

betseg

@betseg what do you think

Adám

@betseg Sure, but I think that'll be harder to remember for non-CS humans. Is 2112 a leap, year? Hm…

With current system: Is 2100 a leap year? I'm sure you can answer pretty quickly.

Mr. Xcoder

And why do we even have the concept of “leap years”? Why don’t we just wait for 400 years and have another completely different year that incorporates all the extra days?

Zacharý

By non-cs humans, you mean those adapted to decimal

Adám

9:48 PM

:42024685 See‽

betseg

@Adám check its last 7 digits :p

Adám

@Zacharý Yes, which are most humans these days, methinks. And changing that will be really hard.

@betseg Yeah, about that…

betseg

@Mr.Xcoder because january is supposed be cold

Zacharý

@Adám stares at dozenal nutjobs

Conor O'Brien

practically, nothing is going to change :P

Zacharý

9:50 PM

@betseg Southern hemisphere says not

Adám

@ConorO'Brien Right. Although I do believe it would be possible (hard, but worthwhile) switch to a single time-zone globally.

betseg

@Zacharý because we should be closest to the sun in 3 jan

Zacharý

@Adám Or use non-discrete timezones :p

Adám

@Zacharý What are they?

Zacharý

Literally based upon the sun

Mr. Xcoder

9:53 PM

@ConorO'Brien exactly.

betseg

@Zacharý i wonder why

Zacharý

Literally based upon the sun and not measured in discrete increments like today's tzs are

So moving 1/60th of todays timezone would be ~1 minute difference

Adám

@Zacharý You mean like it used to be?

betseg

And then there are leap SECONDS

Zacharý

Yes, but measured in a different way, using modern technology and so forth

Adám

9:56 PM

@Zacharý It would be chaotic. Travel times, apparent speed, etc. depending on direction of travel.

@Zacharý … Impossible to schedule anything without knowing exact location(s). Good luck making a conference call.

Zacharý

THe best idea is to fix the current timezones, and totally disregard anything political

betseg

LOL'd @ disregard politics

Geobits

The best idea is not to have time zones at all. 0000-2359

Adám

@Zacharý No, that's also a terrible idea. If a who country uses one time zone, and a little sliver uses another.

@Geobits Yup, that's what I just said.

betseg

We all should use unix time

Zacharý

9:59 PM

I've literally just suggested that ^

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