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4:00 PM
Repeating is X/Y ... that sounds familiar
I'm thinking about charcoal-ish shape drawing & cursor logic, but not sure whether or not it'll be that useful
@dzaima Next add 3D stuff so you can generate trefunge programs :P
what would be the major differences between canvas and charcoal (seeing how similar they are)?
@Cowsquack it'd be stack-based is the biggest difference, and there's probably not going to be a main canvas as in Charcoal
@Mego heh, adding 3D would pretty much require rewriting everything (and a problem would be that there aren't 3D characters, so mnemonic palindromizators like would be impossible) :p
is the source on GH yet?
4:05 PM
@Cowsquack I want to put in on GH, that's why I was asking for a name
@dzaima Create characters yourself, like how Mathematica did.
@dzaima Do 3D internally, and then flatten to multiple files (or whatever trefunge does)
And then create fonts yourself...
@user202729 I don't have a 3D monitor though
Emulate one.
4:06 PM
@user202729 and I can't see in 4D to be able to see the whole 3D shape at once :p
Trefunge uses line feeds if I remember correctly
@dzaima Get 4D glasses
@dzaima Emulate 4D view.
4D -> 2D mapping is hard.
But possible. There are MagicCube4D, Tetraspace (if that counts), 4D toys and (in the future) Miegakure.
4:09 PM
KOTH idea based on a commercial I just saw for the "DealDash" auction scam website.
Map 4D->3D, then 3D->2D.
I hope Jelly has debug flag...
Oh... I forgot to append numbers to the register.
@user202729 God bless my eyes
@user202729 that unreleased Canvas, 10 bytes: W{¹%]:D≠}¹
just went trough the entire project replacing Art with Canvas. Hoping nothing breaks
4:14 PM
I VTC'ed it, so I can't submit now.
@user202729 I don't think you are allowed to take input as a list
But I'm not going to reopen, for reasons I said inthe comment.
The way this competition works is that each "bid" you place on an item only raises the price by 1 cent, but you have to pay 12 cents to place a bid. Thus leading to a scenario where the website racks in 13x what they say the item actually sold for, and it's basically a lottery as to who gets the item.
oh right, I finished that challenge in APL yesterday (without internet then :/) but can't post now :/
4:16 PM
@user202729 Ok some of those µs seem highly redundant. Let's see
@dzaima Why can't you post?
@wizzwizz4 It's closed
@PhiNotPi so the winner of the koth would be the one who gets the item?
Ok it's the first time I see -¤® chained in a Jelly program
Why is SOGL shorter...?
4:18 PM
@Mr.Xcoder Oh. :-(
@Mr.Xcoder ®ṫ-¤ is 2 last items of register.
@user202729 SOGL uses the fact that it is stack-based and just evals the commands
@user202729 I understand the code, but You have a unique manner of writing Jelly (compliment)
@Cowsquack no, it would be the person who ends up with the highest net worth. The item has some known value. Some people will lose money, one guy will make money (maybe). You could not bid and get a score of 0.
It would be an iterated KOTH.
ah, so multiple items would be held in auction
4:21 PM
So I'm kinda curious what the strategy would be. I have the feeling that, as the number of people competing increases, the winning strategy might shift into one in which you shouldn't play.
@PhiNotPi It would also depend on how many people chose not to play
how do the turns work?
@WheatWizard Can you unfreeze polyglot room plz?
I'm not entirely sure how to do turns because in real life they have a timer that resets every time someone bids. Thus the only winners are the people who snipe using an auto-bidder.
@PhiNotPi Probably just a random number of turns in [5, 100]
4:23 PM
@stasoid He's not a mod... ?
@stasoid Sure
@WheatWizard How? I thought you had to be a mod to unfreeze rooms?
And then maybe don't disclose the number of turns remaining until there are 3 left or something
@stasoid Unfrozen.

 Polyglot Development

A chat room for developing polyglots, especially for [this PPC...
@WheatWizard Beat you! ;-)
@Mr.Xcoder Good point
4:24 PM
I started feeling that I don't understand my code...
thank you
@user202729 Welcome to the club! We're glad to have you. :-)
ị“+-×÷”   ;”/   v®ṫ-¤   ®ṖṖ¤;©

4Ḷ   ⁵*   p1,5   P€

“IVXLCDM”iЀ   ị¢   µ   I   N‘Ṡ   æ.   µ   ®;©

Ḳ   µ   “+-*/”W€   i⁸   Ñ  ⁸Ǥ  ¹ ?   µ€   ṛ®   Ḋ
Properly indented
31 mins ago, by Mego
@user202729 I'll give you a cookie if you can segfault Actually
I've decided to offer a real reward: I'll give the first person to successfully make Actually (on TIO) segfault a 100 rep bounty (on this challenge).
Suggest adding to infinite bounty. (or you did that already?)
4:27 PM
Using the Python eval is forbidden
@user202729 I'm going to, but first I need to work out the terms
I don't know {Actually}.
I kinda want to see it play out, to where there is a natural stopping point. The hard cap would be that the bid amount can't surpass what the item is worth.
But one problem is that bots will have strategies that no rational person would do, and totally screw up the game for everyone by just driving the price up regardless of how much money it costs them.
@Mego Out of curiosity, do you have a working piece of Actually code that performs a Segfault?
4:31 PM
I think no.
I found out ZZ works for W€ too.
@Mr.Xcoder Nope. I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Is Actually written in Python?
@PhiNotPi To combat that, you could make bidding have a cost
@Zacharý Yes, Python 3
BTW... why does the Jelly code segfault?
(the one recurse infintely)
5 mins ago, by Mego
Using the Python eval is forbidden
4:33 PM
I know you can't use the python eval
@Mego bidding does have a cost, that's the whole point. It costs 12 cents to raise the item price by 1 cent.
What about actually eval that contains python eval? (forbidden too)
@PhiNotPi Oh, I misread
@user202729 That's obviously also forbidden
As is using string manipulation commands to change a non-F0 character into F0 and then actually-evaling that
@Mego Sounds like a fun challenge.
/me goes off to learn Actually
4:36 PM
TIL HyperNeutrino used to be called Alex L.
@wizzwizz4 His GitHub profile still has that name
What would y'alls reaction be if I changed my username?
@PhiNotPi kick
@PhiNotPi Depends on the username
@PhiNotPi Check Tetris challenge to see what you changed it to.
4:38 PM
Can Python even segfault
If you do change your username, it should be to something super heinous, like "PHP did nothing wrong"
@betseg Yes
Any idea how to golf my Jelly code? The i⁸, ṛ®, ⁸Ǥ and µ's seems highly redundant. “IVXLCDM” too, but the closest I can get is “Ė]żġ’ṃØA.
Python 2.7 segfaults on 32-bit Cygwin all the time for me, for some reason
@Mego Windows 10?
4:39 PM
@Mr.Xcoder my name returns 0
@Mego That's a contributing factor.
WHy does python even segfault
wut, ⌠×⌡?
@Zacharý If Python comes across something unexpected, it will do something the programmers didn't expect.
Often that will result in a pointer containing an invalid value.
That will almost always result in a SEGFAULT.
Unexpected stuff that might occur includes a DLL not being sane.
@Mr.Xcoder Huh? Doesn't show anything different when it's ran multiple times
@betseg is a function. That's shorthand for ⌠×⌡. You push it to a list, so when it is printed, its __repr__ gets called, which returns a textual representation (the long-form code needed to push it)
@betseg Huh? Run it again.
@betseg The first three lines and the last two remain the same.
Otherwise it picks a random number.
It then outputs the first n lines of:
@Mr.Xcoder That's because M is a no-op on integers, e is exp(n), g is a no-op on a single integer, and o is a no-op on integers.
4:43 PM
Can anybody explain how that two byte Jelly code from earlier segfaults?
@Mego I know why, I looked into at the docs
Then I got extremely lucky, it output the same thing 4 times in a row
Suddenly everyone is interested in Actually :P
Bcoz rep
4:44 PM
@Mr.Xcoder Well yeah, there's rep on the line :P
@PhiNotPi at what price does the auction start at?
A: List of bounties with no deadline

Mego100 rep for a segfault in Actually I'm not sure if this is possible. If it is, I'll be impressed. Terms The program must segfault on TIO, with no input given (a stack overflow error like this one doesn't count - it must be a true segfault) Use of ≡ (the Python eval command) is forbidden The b...

My evil plan to get people to use my language is working! Muahahahaha!
@Mego Where is the documentation for the language?
4:47 PM
@Mr.Xcoder Thank you.
Wait... that's Seriously not Actually.
No, it's the same
@Mego Bug or feature?
@wizzwizz4 Go to tio, select "Actually" and then click "Actually". It will point you to "Mego/Seriously"
4:49 PM
Max representable integer?
@Mr.Xcoder Oh.
I thought they behaved differently.
@Zacharý Yeah but I didn't think it's supposed to work like that
@wizzwizz4 They do behave differently. The old seriously is in branch "v1"
@PhiNotPi also can you bid on an item even when you don't have enough money to buy that item?
@Mr.Xcoder Quirk of Python with limited memory available. Integers are arbitrary precision, but TIO strictly limits the available memory, so there's an effective maximum imposed by the environment
4:52 PM
Triple factorial, what would you expect?
Also factorial is implemented in a really unoptimized manner, so ! fails on some inputs because limited memory
Plug in 4 and 5, they're smaller
Because of Environmental restrictions, that's what I was saying above.
@Zacharý That's because it overflows the available memory, so it silently gives up and just returns 4!! and 5!!, respectively
How do you execute a function literal in Actually?
4:54 PM
@wizzwizz4 ƒ
@Mego Thanks.
@Cowsquack starts at zero, so first person to place a bid pays 12 cents to raise the price to 1 cent.
I heard pyth
Yeah you did. But I forgot to write the CMC >_<
I miss the days I was learning Pyth and you were telling me to stop using V :) @LeakyNun
A segfault in Pyth is probably easier, because it doesn't employ the give-up-and-NOP-when-things-go-wrong strategy like Actually
4:56 PM
How do you duplicate what's on top of the stack in Actually? I need to use a value more than once.
Are you able to catch a segfault in Python?
CMC – virtual brownie points for doing it in Actually or Pyth – Output the number of ways of writing n, a given positive integer given as input, as a sum of 5 squares. (related: OEIS A000132)
@Zacharý Yes, but not Pythonicly.
Explain ^
4:58 PM
Should be fairly easy in Pyth. Waiting for @Leaky
@Zacharý Look at ctypes.
It lets you break Python.
@Mr.Xcoder Does zero count as a square for this?
@Cowsquack I'm not sure how much initial money I'll give each player. I suppose I could make a system where you're not allowed to bid if it would cause you to go negative at the end.
@PhiNotPi Going negative knocks you out of the tournament.
@trichoplax No.
4:59 PM
I heard you the 1st time :)
I don't know why I posted twice :| sorry
I have days like that...
Who here likes Block.ly?
Also, looks like the real-life version has a thing where you can pay a "buy it now" price to get refunded your bids... not into money just that you can replace those bids for free on another item.
Please forget about my CMC above. Too late to delete. From now on, I won't answer any potential questions regarding it. facepalm
5:02 PM
Of course that buy it now price is more than the intrinsic value of the item.
@Mr.Xcoder Do you mean OEIS A025429 instead then?
44 secs ago, by Mr. Xcoder
Please forget about my CMC above. Too late to delete. From now on, I won't answer any potential questions regarding it. facepalm
@Mr.Xcoder Actually, 10 bytes: ;R♂²5@∙♂Σc
Thanks. I was typing during those 44 seconds and neglected to check for new messages before pressing Enter...
([1, n], squares, 5th Cartesian power, sums, count n in sums)
Uses a grotesque amount of memory
5:06 PM
;o that's a terrible amount of overhead, but it works
Canvas is now on GitHub. Not much on the interpreter (fixing that soon), but it's there.
Yay I love the dark theme. Will probably learn it if @dzaima documents it well (also don't forget "Compatibility mode" for us, Safari users :P)
@Mr.Xcoder I plan on doing something like pyth does
Yeah I have been loving that search bar ever since I started learning Pyth
also, should I put a dark theme like that on SOGLOnline? I realised now that I'm using a style I made for that :p
If I converted this into something pretty like what Pyth has and had a simple introduction page with basic examples, would that be enough docs?
5:23 PM
@dzaima I think so
2 hours later…
7:05 PM
@Mego is that even possible, seeing as Actually is written in Python?
@FlipTack Python can perform segfaults.
There was a discussion on how Python segfaults
We got some in Jelly
@EriktheOutgolfer tbh the same could be said about most algorithms...
@WheatWizard Looking at your deleted palindrome answer, it seems to me that Dennis's counterexample doesn't disprove your recursion - but the resulting formula from it should have div(s-1)2. However, I also don't see why the recursion should hold in general, even though it does for that example.
7:20 PM
can people with unusual browsers test if this outputs 4 upon running? If async doesn't work on the browser it should theoretically say a message in the console explaining what's happened, though I have no way of testing that.
@dzaima Doesn't work for me, stubbornly still on IE :P
well, IE is now obsolete :P
(Mostly because it doesn't even manage to put the code in, I think.)
try it on Edge
@ØrjanJohansen anything in the console (if IE even has that?)
7:22 PM
hm, seems to work on Edge
@Mego What does do in actually?
@dzaima It does, and no.
@EriktheOutgolfer He was asking for unusual browsers, I really just answered as a joke.
I would probably be on Edge if I hadn't hated it the two times I tried it. Otherwise, well, I'll probably change to something once things I actually care about become unusable.
(Just before new year might be a bad time to tempt fate with that statement.)
@Mr.Xcoder does that work for you?
7:30 PM
@dzaima It does output 4.
@Mr.Xcoder yay for regex!
now hopefully that's all of browser compatibility I'll have to deal with.
@dzaima I get an error though (in the console), but it doesn't seem to affect the functionality
> SyntaxError: Unexpected keyword 'function'
@Mr.Xcoder any line numbers?
And this:
> Invalid CSS property declaration at: * (line 36)
@Mr.Xcoder yeah I don't CSS so that's just gonna stay that way
7:34 PM
CMC: Current year. E.g. 2017 or 2018. (You may use system time or GMT.)
@Adám SOGL, 3 bytes: uSK
@WheatWizard OK the recursion doesn't work. Here's a truly breaking counterexample: 123141321
@Adám 05AB1E, 2 bytes: žg
@Adám Gaia, 2 bytes ∂y
@Mego Also, is there a way to convert a string to an actually function?
7:36 PM
@dzaima Can you do it equally short in APL?
@Adám I don't know of any date-ish built-ins in APL
@dzaima Try ⎕TS (Time Stamp).
⊃⎕TS - practically the same thing as my SOGL answer - uS is a datestuff array and K gets the first item
7:39 PM
@Mr.Xcoder You're outgolfed by 33% ^
@Mr.Xcoder 1⌷⎕TS is a golfier way of that
Ok guys, just a newbie!
@Mr.Xcoder I didn't mean to shame you, only to provide a learning experience.
I know lol ಠ_ಠ
@Adám "you've been outgolfed" isn't usually an insult :p
7:41 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer True, but better safe than sorry.
... says Erik the Outgolfer :P
@Mr.Xcoder Pyth, 18 bytes: lf&qlT5.AmsI@d2T./
@LeakyNun I had lf&.AmsI@d2Tq5lT./
7:48 PM
So basically the exact same
But it should be golfable
∂y oh god that's a weird coincidence.
It's not. The solution was pretty straight-forward :P
But I expected Leaky to outgolf me
I mean how it looks like a parital differential
Oh. >_<
CMC: write two programs P1 and P2 such that they share no characters, P1 prints P2, P2 prints P1, and each program is at least a character long. Shortest combined length wins
7:55 PM
@ConorO'Brien It would be good on Main
really? ok I'll sandbox it lol
hm, kinda dupe-ish, except that this requires P1 and P2 to not share any char
dupe of what?
I'd say more "related"
cyclic quines
Q: Golf a mutual quine

dan04Using two languages of your choice, write the smallest “mutual quine” you can. That is, write a program P in language A that outputs the source code for a program Q in language B, such that the output of program Q is identical to the source code for P. Empty files don't count, nor do "read the ...

close to this
7:59 PM
@LeakyNun lf&q5lT.AsIM@R2T./ (alternative 18-byter)
And a nicer alternative: lf&qlT5qTfsI@Y2T./
Haha, outgolfed myself and Leaky Nun: lfqlBT,fsI@Y2T5./ (17 bytes)
8:15 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Conor O'BrienMutually Exclusive Quines code-challenge quine Your challenge is simple. Write two programs that share no character which output each other. Example Two programs P and Q are mutually exclusive quines if: P outputs Q Q outputs P There is no character c which belongs to both P and Q Each prog...

@Dennis I think I have solved the issues with this answer. I somehow managed to overlook Felipe's comment. Can you please undelete it, if you don't find any other issues with it?
Actually I should have flagged it for moderator attention instead. Eh, sorry for pinging you personally. But I won't raise a flag now, don't want to clutter mod flag threads. Anyway, will keep this in mind in the future
Thank you!
9:00 PM
I'm in 2018. AMA!
@betseg Is 2018 as bad as 2017 was?
@betseg How long is 2018 gonna take?
@betseg So, is it a leap year or not?
@Adám yes
@flawr no idea
@Adám supercomputers still working
@betseg Oh, ok. Keep us posted.
9:07 PM
@betseg Since you can communicate with the past, is there anything we should do to change what has happened?
What does AMA stand for? And you're discussing the leap second, right?
@Zacharý ask me anything
@betseg are you sure you live in the future, and not in the past? :D
9:09 PM
@flawr it's all relative
@flawr floss
@betseg I'm not gonna continue this thread in reddit style :)
Reasons why turkey is more advanced #7553: we're in 2018 while eu and us are in 2017
Or is it Reasonswhyturkeyismoreadvanced :P
@betseg Hm, is Israel almost thrice as advanced, being in 5778?
9:15 PM
@Adám, explain please ?
Different calendar
I was thinking of a challenge that's sort of like cops and robbers. The cops would write a language that is seemingly not TC, and the robbers would somehow prove that it was TC (e.g. via counterexample, like BF simulator; via proof, e.g. by reduction; or by writing a program that converts a TC language to the source language). Would this by within the site's scope?
I meant to say what is it based upon
@Zacharý According to the Jewish calendar, we are currently in year 5778.
@Zacharý Creation of the world according to Biblical chronology.
@ConorO'Brien That rings a bell, are you sure it hasn't been done?
9:21 PM
Q: Create a programming language that only appears to be unusable

feersumRobbers' challenge thread is here. Cops' challenge: Design a programming language that appears to be unusable for programming, but admits computation (or at least completion of the task) through some non-obvious mechanism. You should design a simple programming language that reads code from an ...

sort of like this, but with "TC" replacing "unusable", and without a specific task
Oh right, that was probably what I was remembering.
According to kurzgesagt, we should be in year 12018
@Mr.Xcoder Or 12017, if new year hasn't happened for you yet
@ConorO'Brien Some of the cop answers to that would still apply.
Well, would have.
9:28 PM
@Mr.Xcoder But… what is it based on?
2018 + 10000
@betseg Right, I get that, but why 1E4?
So that the prehistoric ages won't be prehistoric
@betseg Availability of written history does not depend on which number we assign to the year.
@Adám If you browse through the channel you’ll see a video explaining that. They claim that, instead of counting years from the birth of Jesus Christ (The standard Gregorian Calendar), we should start counting from the moment human kind started to evolve
9:31 PM
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I didn't make it
@Mr.Xcoder Uh, and they believe that was exactly 1E4 years before the alleged birth of Jesus?
@Adám Not precisely, but roughly 10000 years before. The reasoning is very well explained here
The reason for choosing another day-0 for human year numbering would be counting from a point that represents us all as a species, rather than from the birth of an entity which belongs to a single belief.
@Mr.Xcoder But in fact they choose a round number which clearly points to a specific (minority) belief system.
Birth of Mesoptamia, the first civilization, rather than an approximation of our evolution?
Or we just all use unix time
9:38 PM
@Adám I never claimed that I agree with their choice of day 0, I just pointed out why they would want to find another such “milestone”
@Zacharý Still based on Gregorian calendar, 0 is 1 January
@Mr.Xcoder Ah OK. Personally, I don't in any way feel significantly different regarding year 5 or year -5. I think it is silly to think that the mere number we assign makes people categorise something as "our times" versus "old times".
It's the start that matters, not the specific date (which was probably chosen for OCD or something)
@Zacharý Nah, clearly for practicality. However, the very idea is its own doom. Being for all practical purposes equivalent to the current common calendar, there is really no reason to switch.
When did some guy put the year -1 as Jesus' birthday?
9:41 PM
The fact that people in the 70s, 80s, 90s called their times so, did that make them look "down" at the 1800s?
If anything, the BIRTH of that new system of time-keeping, since it wouldn't be based upon any old calendars (hopefully)
We should switch to a new leap year system
In my opinion, the start doesn’t matter that much, but rather what we do now and in the future. Although we should not forget our history, we should definitely move on regardless of the past. That’s why I don’t get the point of counting years in the first place, other than being able to schedule meetings and events and stuff
@Mr.Xcoder Maybe we should do like the Celsius scale, and right now should be 0, last year -1 etc, next year +1, etc.
@betseg current system: every %4==0 except %100==0 except %400==0, proposed by some people: every %4==0 except %128==0.
Not only it's simpler, it's also more accurate for next few millennia.
9:45 PM
@Mr.Xcoder It is surely very useful to judge when bridges need maintenance so they won't collapse.
other than being able to schedule meetings and events and stuff — I am quite sure we would deal with it anyway
@betseg what do you think
@betseg Sure, but I think that'll be harder to remember for non-CS humans. Is 2112 a leap, year? Hm…
With current system: Is 2100 a leap year? I'm sure you can answer pretty quickly.
And why do we even have the concept of “leap years”? Why don’t we just wait for 400 years and have another completely different year that incorporates all the extra days?
By non-cs humans, you mean those adapted to decimal
9:48 PM
:42024685 See‽
@Adám check its last 7 digits :p
@Zacharý Yes, which are most humans these days, methinks. And changing that will be really hard.
@betseg Yeah, about that…
@Mr.Xcoder because january is supposed be cold
@Adám stares at dozenal nutjobs
practically, nothing is going to change :P
9:50 PM
@betseg Southern hemisphere says not
@ConorO'Brien Right. Although I do believe it would be possible (hard, but worthwhile) switch to a single time-zone globally.
@Zacharý because we should be closest to the sun in 3 jan
@Adám Or use non-discrete timezones :p
@Zacharý What are they?
Literally based upon the sun
9:53 PM
@ConorO'Brien exactly.
@Zacharý i wonder why
Literally based upon the sun and not measured in discrete increments like today's tzs are
So moving 1/60th of todays timezone would be ~1 minute difference
@Zacharý You mean like it used to be?
And then there are leap SECONDS
Yes, but measured in a different way, using modern technology and so forth
9:56 PM
@Zacharý It would be chaotic. Travel times, apparent speed, etc. depending on direction of travel.
@Zacharý … Impossible to schedule anything without knowing exact location(s). Good luck making a conference call.
THe best idea is to fix the current timezones, and totally disregard anything political
LOL'd @ disregard politics
The best idea is not to have time zones at all. 0000-2359
@Zacharý No, that's also a terrible idea. If a who country uses one time zone, and a little sliver uses another.
@Geobits Yup, that's what I just said.
We all should use unix time
9:59 PM
I've literally just suggested that ^
Q: Uh, is it a haiku?

LyricLySo you want to create a haiku, but you're not sure if it follows the syllable rules for a haiku. I couldn't be bothered to write a proper blurb like I usually do, so you'll have to make do with this. Let's get stuck right in. Finding a haiku out in the wild For the purposes of this challenge, ...

10:16 PM
This is a fine
definition of haiku
at least in theory
10:32 PM
That's amazing
10:51 PM
@ØrjanJohansen Oh
(removed) (removed) (removed) (removed)

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