The Nineteenth Byte

Martin Büttner

1:00 PM

I already golfed mine by 10 bytes... I should probably write a program for this one...

Fatalize

The Malboge code on Wikipedia outputs "Hello World!" without the comma... damn

Beta Decay

For future reference, if the Snippet breaks, it's because someone's incorrectly formatted their header

rp.kelly's answer just broke it

Martin Büttner

@BetaDecay huh, I was pretty sure it would just omit answers with incorrect headers

Sp3000

@Fatalize Copying and pasting from elsewhere? That's no fun! :P

2

Beta Decay

@MartinBüttner Well the his wasn't even a header. He'd just bolded the first line

Martin Büttner

1:09 PM

@BetaDecay next time, just let me know so I can fix the leaderboard instead

Beta Decay

OK sure

Fatalize

@Sp3000 As if anyone can get a working Malboge program by hand!

Sp3000

You could write the Malbolge generator by hand though, right? :P

Fatalize

probably yes

but reading this "A correct 99 Bottles of Beer program, which deals with non-trivial loops and conditions, was not announced for seven years; the first correct one was by Hisashi Iizawa in 2005."

Martin Büttner

@Sp3000 it's been half an hour :P

Fatalize

1:12 PM

I might not want to

Beta Decay

esolangs.org/wiki/Help,_WarDoq%33

Sp3000

@MartinBüttner I thought people would post faster than that - I don't want to take up all the fun ones too quickly

Martin Büttner

"faster than that"? o.O

Sp3000

I expected, er, 40 answers by now XD

Geobits

Some people are just getting to work and have other things to do ;)

georgeunix

1:13 PM

Like sleeping.

Sp3000

Woop HQ9+, will let Martin handle this

Martin Büttner

handled

Beta Decay

Damn, esolangs.org/wiki/Help,_WarDoq%21

Finally got the URL right :D

I'll let Dennis take that

feersum

How do we find languages where it's difficult to print Hello World?

Fatalize

Well that's one stupid esolang

georgeunix

1:16 PM

@feersum esolangs.org is a good place to start searching for one.

Sp3000

@feersum Category: Turing tarpits

georgeunix

@Sp3000 or esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Cell-based

Sp3000

I picked Turing tarpits because they're the ones with limited instructions :P

2

georgeunix

@feersum esolangs.org/wiki/Unreadable

^ looks good

Geobits

Better yet: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Unimplemented

Really hard to do it in those.

Sp3000

1:19 PM

Indeed that'd be very difficult

georgeunix

You'd have to write the interpreter before you write 'Hello, World!'

Dennis

@georgeunix In the PLQ, you only get one guess per answer.

georgeunix

OK.

feersum

None of these pages tell you how to find ones that aren't brainfucks with each symbol replaced with a different string though.

georgeunix

But CL + ST would produce the same result anyway?

Martin Büttner

1:23 PM

@Shebang I'm not sure if more than one loop actually saves anything in BF.

Shebang

My original attempt with one loop was a couple bytes longer

Martin Büttner

the shortest ones I've seen so far (and which my MarioLANG is based on) use a single loop to set a number of cells to useful values.

Shebang

But I will be investigating further/updating

Sp3000

:/ now I wish I kept the one I made for Headsecks

Recreated: apparently 123, not great

Martin Büttner

isn't Headsecks just BF after character substitution?

Sp3000

1:33 PM

Yeah, but my quiz one has a lot of junk in it and I didn't keep the original

Dennis

@MartinBüttner I remember we were discussing this, but I can't quite tell from the post: Are non-programming languages allowed?

Martin Büttner

@Sp3000 hm yeah. just saying, as fun as it might look, it's probably not worth posting a separate answer, because you can't really do any golfing you wouldn't do in BF. you could include it in a BF answer if we ever get an optimal one.

@Dennis well... I removed the sentence explicitly disallowing them.

@BetaDecay would you mind making the screenshot a bit smaller? :/

Beta Decay

@MartinBüttner Haha sorry :P

Sp3000

@MartinBüttner That wasn't what I meant: I was trying to beat mbomb's BF, which I did, but nowhere near 107 so it's not great

Martin Büttner

oh I see

Dennis

1:39 PM

@MartinBüttner Just making sure they're not disallowed implicitly. ;)

Martin Büttner

I think it's on reddit

and I also think it's just a single loop like my MarioLANG

Sp3000

Mine's a single loop too, but clearly I'm picking all the wrong numbers :P

Martin Büttner

@Dennis I'd say they're fine... I mostly removed it because there would be some interesting languages where it's not obvious whether primality testing is possible.

Sp3000

(seems like the type of thing which could be brute forceable though, but not bothered)

Martin Büttner

I'm contemplating writing some code to shorten my MarioLANG thing, but I'm not exactly sure how to go about it yet (other than brute force)

Shebang

1:42 PM

I got BF down to 120.

Martin Büttner

@BetaDecay uhhhh

the big red thing is still as big as before but now the actual code is missing?

Dennis

37 answers in 80 minutes. PhiNotPi will be so unhappy...

Beta Decay

@MartinBüttner I'll add that in as a code block

I had no idea it was so big on a desktop D:

Martin Büttner

@Dennis your comma is killing the leaderboard... leave it, I'll try to fix the leaderboard :D

Dennis

Haha. Didn't think about that.

Martin Büttner

1:52 PM

fixed

Fatalize

lol @Shebang posted a LOLCODE answer 30 secs after mine

Mitch Schwartz

@Dennis must the output for enumerate BF programs be in decimal?

Martin Büttner

I think you meant "LOL @S..."

Shebang

:(

Fatalize

:)

Mitch Schwartz

1:59 PM

if octal is allowed, then i would consider writing a BF implementation of TheNumberOne's approach

Dennis

12

A: Can numeric input/output be in unary?

Yes, but only for languages such as sed, Retina, ///, etc. Only where it is the language's most natural integer representation. I'm in general a fan of taking input in the most natural format for a given language. If a language has no integer type / integer processing capabilities, then the mos...

I consider this the consensus. BF doesn't have an integer type, so unary is OK.

Mitch Schwartz

thanks

Martin Büttner

@Dennis I still have no idea how that kind of language discrimination became consensus...

Dennis

I don't really like it either. IMHO each submission should be able to use whatever base it wants.

By default, I mean.

Mitch Schwartz

well decimal is actually pretty doable in BF a lot of the time, and unary feels rather like cheating imo

but for this case being able to use octal is nice

Sp3000

2:10 PM

I feel like whatever base is even worse, since some challenges might just end up being whoever can find the most convenient input/output format

Mitch Schwartz

well if i decide to do it then i'll probably do octal -> decimal too for good measure

Martin Büttner

@Sp3000 that's true, but if we allow unary, we should allow it for all languages

Sp3000

Some people have used unary in other languages though...

(also I'm still trying to figure out whether it was a great idea - on the one hand it lets more esoteric languages compete, but on the other hand it makes some challenges a whole lot easier...)

Martin Büttner

that moment when you plug your massive diophantine inequality in 12 variables into Mathematica to find the optimal solution and it gives you the solution you found manually -.-

Mitch Schwartz

here is a 97 in brainfuck +>+++>++++>++>--->--[++++++[>+++++++++++<-]<]>>-----.>++.>--..+++.>>>.<-.<-.<.+++.------.<-.‌>>>+.

Shebang

2:20 PM

Do you want to post it? I can delete my answer :)

Martin Büttner

@Shebang you don't need to delete yours

that's why we have the snippet which lists the shortest per language

Shebang

Oh, right :P

Mitch Schwartz

it's generated with code i wrote for spoj.com/problems/BFK_AUTO and touched up by hand a bit

New Main Posts

2:33 PM

-2

Q: What is the generalized name of this Rabbit and Hole question

I have been recently asked a question which I'm trying find the name of the generalized problem: A bunny can hide in holes for several days and can only move consequently each day. Each day it has to move left or right. We provide the number of holes a rabbit can hide and an array of strategies ...

code-challenge

Geobits

Voting on Hello World is so weird. I'm in 3rd with a boring ass Java answer. It's not a "cool" language, it's not golfed creatively (it just can't be as far as I see), and it wasn't within the first 10 posted. It's just weird.

So it's 1) Stuck 2) Fourier 3) Java

Martin Büttner

maybe people like Java (which is just as weird)

2

Fatalize

well you replaced args with a

that's good golfing effort

Geobits

That's standard, even in the tips Q :)

Fatalize

I did a bit better with Stuck, golfed 0 bytes into 0 bytes

(good thing I read that Stuck esolang page a few days ago, easy fastest-gun rep)

There were like 10 "low quality answers" to review which were just answers to that Hello world challenge

Geobits

2:45 PM

Yea, I wasn't expecting much rep at all for this one. I just posted it so there'd be a Java entry, since it's supposed to be a catalog and all. I guess I'll take it, though :D

Beta Decay

Haha you're looking the gift horse dead in the mouth @Geobits ;)

georgeunix

HTML doesn't print to stdout though...

unless I suppose you use elinks or lynx

it's a markup language

feersum

HTML isn't a programming language

Geobits

@BetaDecay I dunno, a horse sounds like a terrible gift. Where am I going to keep him? My apartment certainly isn't big enough, and I don't want the costs associated with stabling/feeding either.

Beta Decay

Do you have a balcony?

georgeunix

2:49 PM

@feersum Exactly. But it's still on the 'Hello, World!' page

Geobits

@BetaDecay Porch. But umm, no. No horses on the porch.

Beta Decay

@Geobits Well can't you ask for the receipt and return it then?

Geobits

I'm not sure what the warranty on horses generally is. I don't think I can take it back to the local Walmart or anything.

Beta Decay

You're shafted then :P

georgeunix

@MartinBüttner the 'link' in the leaderboard doesn't work in Safari.

Geobits

2:52 PM

Don't get me wrong, I've had horses. They're not bad creatures, but I definitely don't want to go through all that again, especially where I'm at now.

Martin Büttner

@georgeunix you need to open it in a new tab or click it with your mouse wheel

georgeunix

Martin Büttner

(same in all other browsers)

Beta Decay

@georgeunix The link tries to open in the snippet's frame

georgeunix

How about using target="__blank"

That forces it to be in a new tab

Martin Büttner

2:53 PM

@georgeunix I tried that for the quiz but somehow it didn't help either.

georgeunix

Maybe it's specific to SE? SE doesn't want popups on their site

(I'm talking about __blank)

window.open(uri, '__blank')?

Beta Decay

Try it on this

0

A: Leaderboard Snippet

This snippet is exactly the same as Martin's except that this also identifies if people are eligible for a bounty (for question Stop, stand there where you are!). /* Configuration */ var QUESTION_ID = 55293; // Obtain this from the url // It will be like http://XYZ.stackexchange.com/questio...

I've made it a CW

georgeunix

window.open does nothing in the preview

But then again, neither does the original link

Nope.

Beta Decay

Haha well I meant edit my post to prevent clutter, but oh well ;)

georgeunix

I'll just delete it ;)

Beta Decay

3:03 PM

Alright :)

georgeunix

@MartinBüttner I'm using a trackpad xD

no middle mouse button/scroll wheel

Martin Büttner

you've got only yourself to blame for that :P

2

georgeunix

true

Sp3000

@MartinBüttner 467. Well.

Trying to break HNQ records all the time? :P

Martin Büttner

wtf

Geobits

3:14 PM

60+ answers in 2 hours, you had to see this coming :P

477 now.

Beta Decay

What's this number?

467, 477

Geobits

Go here and hover a question.

Martin Büttner

@Geobits well the number of answers doesn't affect it so much after 10 or 15 I think (unless all those answers get votes as well)

Beta Decay

I have no hovering capabilities on my phone :/

Geobits

> This question has been arbitrarily awarded X hotness points

Beta Decay

3:16 PM

Ohh nice one Martin :D

PhiNotPi

Why do Canadians prefer their jokes in hexadecimal? Because 7 8 9 A.

10

Fatalize

Should add "Sorry." after that "joke" to make it more canadian

Sp3000

@MitchSchwartz Does your BF assume anything about wrapping behaviour?

georgeunix

Odd! Safari complained about the link on the leaderboard when clicking, but actually loaded the answer in the frame despite it telling me it was 'insecure'

Mitch Schwartz

@Sp3000 i've added it as an answer now

georgeunix

3:27 PM

safari bestest secure

Sp3000

I see the answer, hence why I'm asking :P

Mitch Schwartz

it works with small or large cells

Beta Decay

Haha it's neck and neck between Fourier and Stuck :D

Mitch Schwartz

bff and BFI both have large cells

they allow going to left of start cell

Geobits

Hotness up to 501. Meltdown imminent.

Fatalize

3:29 PM

@BetaDecay I might consider removing my upvote to that Fourier answer just to get ahead...

Mitch Schwartz

i typically think of -[-] as not feasible with bff or BFI because of time limits

Sp3000

Well I was just thinking if you assume a specific wrapping it'd be good to mention, but it looks pretty portable

(Nice work :P)

Mitch Schwartz

thanks :)

Beta Decay

@Fatalize I'm always available to downvote ;D

Fatalize

You can't downvote my answer, it's a marvel of code golfing

very hard to optimize

Mitch Schwartz

3:39 PM

you can tell by looking at the beginning of the program that decrementing a zero cell has to be allowed

i think wrapping is not worth mentioning specifically; it is covered by the compatibility note and is also not hard to see by looking at the code

aditsu

3:56 PM

@MartinBüttner I wanted to ask you something... why do you write "Hello, World!" with a capital W?

Martin Büttner

why not?

TheNumberOne

@BetaDecay I won :)

aditsu

@MartinBüttner because unlike in German, nouns don't get capitalized in the middle of a sentence

Martin Büttner

@aditsu I'd consider it a proper noun in this case (like you might write Earth, Sun or Moon when referring to the earth, sun or moon)

Sp3000

I thought the idea was so that people couldn't just steal implementations from elsewhere :P

Martin Büttner

3:58 PM

also, it's the more interesting spelling for code golf, and it's the spelling used by Wikipedia

aditsu

@Sp3000 implementations are not very consistent, some are actually written as Hello, World!

heh, the wikipedia article is quite inconsistent too :p

Sp3000

Yeah, but to my knowledge both Wiki and Esolangs wiki have far more lowercase w than uppercase

... okay the usual wiki is very inconsistent

aditsu

related questions: answers.com/Q/Is_the_word_'world'_a_proper_noun , quora.com/When-should-the-word-world-be-capitalized

georgeunix

You're referring to the World, not a world?

Martin Büttner

564...

aditsu

4:05 PM

I haven't really seen "World" used as a proper noun, but I guess it could be possible

georgeunix

Oh well: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/55512/43338

Martin Büttner

4:17 PM

647, what just happened? o.O

aditsu

what are those numbers?

georgeunix

SExchange 'hotness'

aditsu

sex change? :p

Nathan Merrill

Farey addition is defined as:

a/b + c/d = (a+c)/(b+d)

given two decimal numbers, can you approximate it?

aditsu

approximate what?

Nathan Merrill

4:21 PM

the farey sum

aditsu

the sum is still a decimal number, so yeah

Beta Decay

@TheNumberOne God dammit :D

At least I've got more Gold and silver badges than you ;)

georgeunix

@aditsu oh gosh~ I meant stack exchange

aditsu

hotness of stack exchange? how do you calculate that?

Beta Decay

Gah, hit the rep cap :(

Nathan Merrill

4:23 PM

right, but you don't know what a/b is if you have a decimal

(or c/d for the same reason)

aditsu

@BetaDecay oh wow, I thought you were quite active, I'm surprised to see you under 5000

Beta Decay

@aditsu A lot of my answers range from 0 to 1 upvote, so I don't get much rep

I seem to be getting a load this month, so hopefully that'll change

aditsu

@NathanMerrill hmm, well, different approximations of a/b and c/d can give you very different approximations of the sum

so yeah, you can "approximate" it, but you can't tell how close it is to the real value

compare 1/2 "+" 2000000001/1000000000 with 1000000000/2000000001 "+" 2/1

Geobits

Assuming the decimal input is limited to a finite length representation, the most sane way to do it would be to just treat the denominator as a suitably sized power of ten and simplify each one.

Beta Decay

How many of you apart from the mods have protected a question? Seems a bit of a wasted privilege :|

Geobits

4:29 PM

I have, once :D

aditsu

I think they shouldn't be protected :p

Beta Decay

Haha I'll be too scared of protecting something unnecessarily

Geobits

Mine was just last month:

Jul 23 at 23:00, by Geobits

Screw it. I've never protected a question before, and this one seems like a good fit.

Beta Decay

Hmm okay. So basically if it's more than a day old, and it's been on the HNQ for a while, you should protect it?

Geobits

Not necessarily. That makes it more likely, but I wouldn't protect unless answers were starting to get trollish.

Jul 23 at 23:05, by randomra

Seems like if answers start to lean into code trolling, it is hard to stop. At least I can downvote some, I barely do otherwise.

Beta Decay

4:36 PM

Ah sure. That'll work for me

Geobits

5:08 PM

Broke 750. I wonder if it'll go past 1000 hotness? 96 answers in four hours... insanity.

Sp3000

~~750 and climbing.~~ ninja'd

Martin Büttner

@Geobits yeah I thought that Doorknob protecting the Quiz was a bit unjustified for example, but I figured he had his reasons. I personally wouldn't protect it until there were several very low quality/invalid answers by new users.

Nathan Merrill

why is there no marbelous answer on Hello World?

Sp3000

It's only been 4 hours, give people time :P

(or make one yourself!)

Nathan Merrill

I feel like marbelous is one of those languages that has so many ways to complete a task, that you never know if its the shortest

where as, say, C, you can be fairly certain

Martin Büttner

5:24 PM

@NathanMerrill I kinda doubt it's possible to do better than just putting all the bytes in a row

Nathan Merrill

surely there's a shorter one?

maybe not

eh

georgeunix

@BetaDecay did a shorter Fourier 'Hello World'

Which doesn't specify every char

Nathan Merrill

it'd be cool if number of participants affected HQ

Martin Büttner

5:40 PM

@NathanMerrill do you mean HNQ? and do you mean participants as opposed to answers?

(because number of answers does)

Nathan Merrill

yeah

well, take both into account

Martin Büttner

I guess it's not really relevant for any other SEs where multiple answers from the same user are a very rare exception

Nathan Merrill

true\

Beta Decay

@georgeunix D:

But really, nice :D

georgeunix

@BetaDecay What?

What did I do?

Geobits

5:45 PM

I think he interpreted your earlier statement as saying you wrote a smaller Fourier than he did.

georgeunix

Oh

Well, I did try and copy it in PEG.js whilst experimenting with the library

It's not complete.

And it's bigger I think.

It was an experiment, I wasn't actually going to continue it

But if @BetaDecay wants the grammar (.pegjs) I'll give it to him/her under public domain

I don't have a use for it.

Beta Decay

Wait what? I thought you said you wrote a shorter version of "Hello, World!" in Fourier

But I don't see it :P

Sp3000

@Mauris Doing a lot of languages and filling in the catalogue is nice and all, but can we have a few lines of explanation for the not-so-obvious ones?

e.g. ALAGUF

Beta Decay

6:01 PM

@georgeunix I'd love to have a look (him BTW) :D

georgeunix

xD

Geobits

@BetaDecay I tried a bit golfing yours down, but I couldn't do it. Here's an alternative if you want something that uses a variable (same size):

72a101a+7aa+3~za44a32a87aza+3a-6a-8a/3a

georgeunix

@BetaDecay @BetaDecay I thought you did xD

Beta Decay

@Geobits I might add it in as a footnote.

The one I'm using is also the product of @isaacg's algorithm

Calvin's Hobbies

We are now a pizzaria:
                                    __..---'"""""""`---..__
                               _.-''    ____......____     ``-._
                           _.-'   _.--'"     _        `""-.._   `-._
                        _,'   _.-'    *  _.-"_`   ~  .-.  ,  `-._   `._
                      ,'    .'      ~    `.-'    "  :   :   ~    `-.   `.
                    ,'    .'   "      "     ____     ._.      /. '  `.   `.
                  ,'   .- .--.  *  ||  ,  ."    `.        "  //   "   `.   `.

7

Beta Decay

6:04 PM

I love you Calvin :D :D

Geobits

@BetaDecay I was hoping that being able to use all the operators might help :(

Sp3000

Is that a teaser for a new Kolmog? :P

Calvin's Hobbies

@Sp3000 possibly

Beta Decay

@Geobits Hmm... Could a loop help at any point here?

georgeunix

@BetaDecay paste.debian.net/309499 <- here you go! It's very incomplete and very quick and nasty

Geobits

6:05 PM

I don't think so. I've been playing with it, but it's not very loopable.

For the record, that pizza looks terrible on the starboard.

Sp3000

5 hours, 1k views, HNQ... 686. Damn it's dropped :P

georgeunix

I seemed to have mixed node.js with the browser xD

Geobits

Like a rock. It was at 847 a few minutes ago.

Beta Decay

@georgeunix That is like no Javascript I've ever seen :/. But I like it :)

georgeunix

It's not Javascript

Only the code inside { } is JS.

The rest is Xtext grammar.

Eclipse Xtext.

Beta Decay

6:08 PM

Oh right. That'll be handy for the future

georgeunix

As I said earlier, it was an experiment.

Beta Decay

I might switch to pegJS from Python in the future

georgeunix

Not an actual attempt

I didn't even look at the documentation xD

Or Xtext documentation

(although I had attempted Xtext languages earlier)

Anyway, gtg

Beta Decay

See you

georgeunix

Bye

Beta Decay

6:12 PM

@Geobits I've added your program

Sp3000

I think Mauris has triggered about 10 low quality post reviews :/

Beta Decay

Haha how many answers?!

Mauris

@Sp300 Haha, I will add some explanations/links to the obscure ones.

Sp3000

Thanks :) Sorry about that, just thought the answers would be more interesting that way

Geobits

He's done 15 so far unless caching is missing some :D

Beta Decay

6:20 PM

codegolf.stackexchange.com/…

Goddamit :D

Mitch Schwartz

@Mauris unlambda is doable in 36 bytes, this is irori's solution
`.!`.d`.l`.r``.W`. `.,``.l`c`.H.e.oi

Mauris

Wow, sweet

Mitch Schwartz

( golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Hello+transposable+world/… )

Martin Büttner

@BetaDecay just saw your comment on K. we're only missing Q and Y

Mauris

? "Hello, World!" in QBasic would work, but I don't have an implementation to fiddle with the line numbers/spacing/whatever that might be necessary. (I just downloaded one.)

Geobits

6:28 PM

In QBasic you shouldn't need line numbers, no? It's been a few years, but I thought that was one of the new features over older versions.

Beta Decay

@Mauris That's a borderline dupe of the VBA answers isn't it?

So therefore can't posted if I understood the rules

@MartinBüttner Do those languages exist? :D

Martin Büttner

@BetaDecay q actually does, I think, but I was referring to initial letters

Geobits

Is there no YA[E/G}L yet? (Yet another eso/golf language)

Mauris

So tempted to post this screenshot though.

Beta Decay

@MartinBüttner Posted Q

Mauris

6:32 PM

I love that old QBasic-y programming environment. @MartinBüttner, is it a duplicate?

I feel like Basic derivatives are an odd bunch. They all have their own little quirks, just none that really show up when writing "Hello, World!". I'm far from an expert on them, though.

Martin Büttner

if the different dialect doesn't change the shortest Hello, World I probably wouldn't post a separate answer

Beta Decay

Me and edc65 seem to have both of the shortest BASIC answers for all languages :P

Mauris

6:45 PM

@MitchSchwartz: That Unlambda solution is so magical. O_O

I guess it's doing this? bpaste.net/show/0f917f0450ab

I don't understand how that works at all... D:

Mauris

6:57 PM

@BetaDecay I posted a Y-language (Yorick).

Beta Decay

@Mauris Perfect :)

Transcript for