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00:00 - 22:0023:00 - 00:00

12:00 AM
@Sp3000 that's with Java 8
what IDE are you using?
Eclipse Kepler
I did a search for Java 8 and found this
And I think it worked - thanks!
1 hour later…
1:29 AM
For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, go commit to the Vim proposal and show Emacs who's really the best!
3 hours later…
4:56 AM
when will the fortnighlty challenge for next week be decided? I personally like @MartinBüttner 's Language design idea...
4 hours later…
8:56 AM
@TAbraham At some point today, but I'm pretty sure, my idea is at least 4 weeks away.
(which I don't mind, I personally prefer both Sp3000's and CH's suggestions)
2 hours later…
10:31 AM
I like language design as an idea but it certainly needs fleshing out
Maybe it'd be interesting to have a language theme + popcon
Like how Quincunx's language is based on circuits
10:58 AM
@MartinBüttner where did you share the link for the lab rat race ?
/r/MachineLearning, /r/genetic_algorithms and HN
It's been on the front pages of the subreddits for two days
12 gold badges .
11:04 AM
70 votes . 6K views
still on front page
I don't think it'll hit 100 votes. I'm not even sure we're still in the HNQ
I am pretty sure it will hit 100 votes.
10K views is a 50-50
@Sp3000 Quincunx's language? Did he do something else that Manufactoria?
11:22 AM
@MartinBüttner Why'd you have to go and get publicist? Once this reached 10k views we we're supposed to be tied with 9 gold apiece and I might have had the only chance anyone on this site could ever have to surpass you in a badge count XD
And now 12 does seem likely...crazy :)
@Calvin'sHobbies I don't believe in getting 12 yet. ;)
Also, you regularly manage good questions, which usually give multiple gold at one, while I tend to get my gold from answers (which usually just gives one)
@Sp3000 thanks!
Also while we're showing off esolang ideas, here's one based on trains: esolangs.org/wiki/Rail
11:42 AM
I'm on mobile and can't star this :(
@MartinBüttner I know, that's my only solace. And I think I've still got an ace or two up my sleeve ;)
@Calvin'sHobbies I suspect you have an ace printing machine up your sleeve...
this ^
big league fight going on.. 2 gold badge guy slowly moves far away
@Calvin'sHobbies you did not share your question somewhere ?
(to somehow get publicist .. )
I honestly didn't know that badge existed until about an hour ago. Though yeah, that might get me tied with Martin.
11:54 AM
@Optimizer I only have the one, and that was for an answer I'm not proud of...
What I'd really like is socratic. I'm around 25 (well received) questions away.
@Calvin'sHobbies unless you go on another 3 month hiatus, you'll definitely be the first one on PPCG to get Socratic ;)
Once it's all over we need a "How did Calvin come up with all these ideas" documentary
"Once it's all over" ? when exactly is that ?
12:02 PM
@Calvin'sHobbies does it bother you that people call you Calvin? :P
better than Hobbies
@Sp3000 Haha, I'm really more impressed with all the amazing answers I've seen. The work put into my questions is minimal compared to some of them.
@MartinBüttner Calvin is just fine :P
But stop bugging me, I'm trying to write a question
Would it bother you if we starting calling ourselves the Calvinists?
We should actually call ourselves Hobbies
12:18 PM
@trichoplax Hahaha, here on PPCG there are two opposing factions, the Calvinists who ask questions and the Martinists who answer them. (No religious offence intended, that's just a really funny coincidence.)
lol I wonder if those will catch on...
but we need some Optimizers too
Martin (B|L)ut(tn|h)er ignoring diacritics. Close enough.
or is it Optimists ?
12:21 PM
@Sp3000 you could correct it without the need for an umlaut by inserting e? after the u.
Oh, you can do ue?
But then you'd need more options or you'd get Luether
Can someone help me find a non matching string for a PCRE regex ^((?!(\S12\')).)*$ ?
" 12'"
yeah no.
12:27 PM
I think that is the only one ?
You can probably replace the 0 with something else
Any string containing that as a substring will fail.
asdasd612'asdasdasd passes
12:30 PM
It shouldn't, I think :/
Doesn't work on mobile, I'll have to check later
I think you mean substring but the rest is non-alpha characters
like (12'0*%$#@
and also, not substring, but starts with 021'
Oh that makes more sense
12:36 PM
Hmm, I don't see why it would have to start with that.
So, <non-whitespace char>12'<blah>?
It's definitely the regex idiom for matching anything not containing a substring. I'll check the online tester in an hour or so.
even in real java code, that is the case.
anything starting with <non whitespace char>12` does not match. Anything else matches
The regex you posted is is not the same as that in the tester. Obviously, if you don't repeat the lookahead it only checks the beginning of the string.
oh! a missing bracket pair .
1:07 PM
@MartinBüttner did you find a nice solution for the tree labelling puzzle?
Speaking of which, I'm starting to think that Calvin's challenge made Peter lose all faith in PPCG.
which one?
1:26 PM
@MartinBüttner interesting.. will solutions be posted?
@MartinBüttner or should we add it as a PPCG challenge :)
oh... programming question.. :)
I have to autograde work.. they are supposed to write to standard out but some write to files. Is there some clever way to redirect all output to standard out?
short of running the whole thing in a virtual machine.. well I might have to do that
hmm.. I wonder where I can ask this
2:01 PM
@Lembik turns out they did facebook.com/notes/1047761065239794
2:28 PM
I've been trying for weeks to come up with an answer-dependent challenge based on the theme of Chinese Whispers... with no luck...
(like either processing the previous answer's output, or basing your code on the previous answer's output, but I haven't found anything that would work well)
I have been trying for months.
well I've got a separate idea which I'm currently writing up
me too
The outcome of Keep Your Distance saddens, but does not surprise me much :(
yeah, I just thought the same
although I noticed my submission has a mistake
It's performing as if there is a guess each at 0 and 1000.
2:39 PM
I think fixing it wouldn't matter much ;)
although with return 1 and return 999 submissions that bug doesn't matter
3:01 PM
finished writing up my sandbox post.
I might actually add another one for a CnR
I must be very close to hitting the serial downvote reversal for a user on LifeHacks. I'm having to consciously think about whether or not to downvote now (based on the user, not the post), which shouldn't be the case :(
I think I may just give up on the site.
are his answers that bad?
is it the national give up on a SE site day/week ?
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Martin BüttnerThe Jigsaw Code Puzzle source-layout This is an answer-dependent challenge! The order of answers matters, and your exact task depends on the last answer that was posted. Let's piece together some code! Here are 1960 random (printable ASCII) characters. Think of them as a big heap of unsort...

Mostly they just look like they're from an external source without attribution. Very many self-answers that way, as in "browse a lifehacking site and scrape stuff to farm rep". Mostly one-liners with a meme-ish picture attached.
Dupes and near dupes as well.
3:11 PM
@MartinBüttner Are you going to be biasing towards alphabet chars so that it's not like Boggle again?
(Or will it not matter?)
@Sp3000 should I? with the no-language-twice restriction I was hoping it wouldn't matter.
I could though
currently each character appears about 21 times
okay, my other idea is a CnR, which will probably supersede my Haystack proposal from a couple of months ago. I'd like some feedback though before I write it up.
you want feedback to post to sandbox ?
well, there are a few ways to do this, and I don't want to include the cartesian product of all option in the sandbox post, so I thought I might be able to rule a few things out before I write it up in detail
the idea is basically that the cops design word search puzzles with code (which the robbers have to solve). the clue for the programs in the word search will be their outputs (as it was for Unscramble the Source). the score would be the size of the word search.
the main questions are:
1. Do the cops choose the number of codes to find or is it prescribed? In the former case, how does this factor into the score? In the latter case, what's a good number?
2. Do all codes output the same, or will there be one clue per snippet? (I tend to the former.)
3. Do all codes have to be in the same language, all in different languages or could the cop specify "1 Python, 1 Ruby, 2 CJam"?
3:27 PM
Allowing different languages sounds interesting, but will have to chat another day for me, unfortunately (heading off)
@Sp3000 I've created the chatroom for the new challenge and made you room owner, so you can pin things. Feel free to post the sandbox post yourself.
Otherwise Python would just be finding "print" all the time
Ahaha k, thanks :)
@Sp3000 oh and don't forget to delete the theme proposal
(but feel free to do that tomorrow)
(or whenever you're back online)
@Geobits @Optimizer any opinions on the CnR idea?
3:34 PM
Not sure. I think it's one of those where I don't know how well it would work until I see it working ;)
Not very helpful, I know.
any ideas about the open points?
1) choose 2) same 3) specify
Great, I think I'd pick the same.
Not sure how to factor the score on 1
Probably have to base it on density... codes/area?
Denser puzzles seem harder to concoct.
but probably also harder to solve.
3:36 PM
so cop's score would be codes/area and robber's score codes*area? ^^
Hmm. That wouldn't give robbers an incentive to crack dense ones, would it? I'd rather crack one with 2*400 than 20*20 (I'm a bad RNG).
exactly, but bigger ones should be harder to crack, right?
surely the codes are not required to go in a straight line?
3:40 PM
@feersum hm, I didn't intend to make it a boggle board
If straight line, you could brute force any size almost instantly
except there's the halting problem.
not really...terminate them after X seconds
unless the idea will be to put busy loops in every line
3:42 PM
Well, for common languages you could run each through a syntax-checker before actually running each test snippet.
That would limit the tests/inspections a lot.
hm, with a boggle board I feel like a cheap copycat :D
hexagonal boggle boards!
3D boggle cube :D
3D hexagonal boggle boards
Arbitrary graphs
3:44 PM
I did actually shortly contemplate a hexagonal source layout challenge earlier today
cop score inversely proportional to number of edges
You are placed in a grid with no wrapping. You start on your "base", and you must step on every other square on the grid. Each step drains your "battery" 1%. By stepping on your base, you recharge your battery completely
how would you guys solve that?
can you step on the same square twice?
If you run out of battery, and you haven't stepped on every square, you lose
do I have to do in as few moves as possible?
3:46 PM
pick the most distant point, walk there, giving preference to unwalked squares?
are theer obstacles?
is that the optimal strategy?
no obstacles
optimally or heuristically? i.e. is this a "do it as well as you can" or "what is the shortest" type of question?
well, I want an optimal way to get the shortest possible route
I could just brute force it
this seems like a problem which would be easier to solve with human than computer
3:48 PM
well the optimal solution would be partition the grid into groups of 100 cells, which have the minimum possible overlap around the base, and then find a hamiltonian path for each.
you wouldn't always want to use 100 cells in a trip
I would say DP on a graph of 2^N sets of used cells X amount of battery left
ensuring the partition is hamiltonian may be difficult
Is the base varying, or can we assume it's at a given corner/edge/middle spot?
I feel like we had this as a challenge
3:51 PM
or did you mention it as a challenge idea in the past?
reminds a bit of the 'confuse drunk man going home' or something like that
nope, I'm in class. It was just brought up
@MartinBüttner The jigsaw idea seems awfully similar to 'Evolution of Hello World'
modify a couple of characters, print a trivial thing
what do you do if a window seems outside both of your monitors and doesn't respond to either Windows+Arrow key or Windows+Shift+Arrow key?
windows up key?
can you alt-tab to it?
3:59 PM
Solution: change your main monitor
@NathanMerrill yes
@feersum hm, yeah, I got that feeling too, although I think it will be much harder with changing output and only being allowed to insert characters.
Oh man. I accidentally used Path.PathSeparator instead of Path.DirectorySeparatorChar and created a ton of wonky files.
is that a semicolon or something?
@feersum @Geobits for the CnR ... with a Boggle board, I'm afraid it will be really tough for the cops to ensure that there aren't unintended solutions somewhere in the grid.
so what?
4:06 PM
what's the point if there's no way for the cops to secure their submissions?
Calvin's Hobbies is like the Jay-Z of PPCG. He is untouchable.
the submissions aren't supposed to be secure, no?
they are supposed to have a solution
yeah, but if the cops can't make sure they only have the intended solution, that means they're probably not that hard to solve.
I think it's better if it is difficult to secure the solution
4:09 PM
they should have to work, not just put it in a zip archive or something
I feel like this will again be very susceptible to cops based on prime factorisation...
I think its silly how Keep your Distance has the bot that posts 999 at the top
@NathanMerrill go beat him ;)
well, I really just want to have a bot that posts 998
just to take him down
4:16 PM
With a concerted effort, you could beat him. You just need enough people to post 998/997/996. The problem then is that most likely the one that posts 1 will win ;)
I don't think a single 998 would do it, because there's already a 990, and it's in second place.
@feersum I wonder if it would make sense to allow robbers partial cracks, although it would be harder to keep track of when a cop is fully cracked.
actually, I think I do have the winning bot
Otherwise someone could just design a board with programs in 25 super obscure languages, which would require a single robber to learn all of those languages.
oh, it requires JRuby/Jython
@Martin True. That makes things difficult. Limiting to one language would mitigate that, but...
4:18 PM
code crosswords did 1 language
I was going to post a bot that either picks 1 or 999 based on which side it thinks will have the least players
BF to the rescue :P
@Geobits oh god :D
nah BF is easy to crack, since there are so few symbols
just write any program and then find it
4:20 PM
The large character count hurts it, too.
@feersum yeah, one language, multiple outputs. I think I'd prefer the other way round though.
what do you think about allowing robbers partial cracks?
any arguments?
Like you said, it makes tracking a PITA, both for cops and robbers.
4:24 PM
it could be doable. especially with stack snippets for bookkeeping.
Who's safe? The one with none cracked, or the one with the highest cracked/uncracked ratio?
you're safe as long as not all are cracked.
Who's the best robber? The one with 10 easy partials, or the one who cracked all 10 in a hard one?
you'd get a score per found program, which depends on the difficulty of the board you found it in.
so that's the one with all 10 in a hard one.
or all 10 in ten hard ones.
then I guess even in a hard one some are easier to find then others.
Hmm, I'd rather pick off the easiest partials in a bunch of them.
4:27 PM
so someone could just quickly grab the easy ones from all boards.
I liked the idea of collaboratively cracking the cop submissions.
@MartinBüttner About the jigsaw again, the fixed-size floor seems bad
the top left corner could right away be occupied with invalid syntax in most languages
hm, good point
@feersum I was thinking about allowing the program to be any rectangular slice from the floor, but that would make it really trivial until the grid gets dense.
or rather, it would then be really important to incentivise using fewer pieces
5:10 PM
@MartinBüttner thanks
6:02 PM
@MartinBüttner late to the party.. but what do you mean by word search here ?
like a word search puzzle
I'm going for boggle board
a word search puzzle can only have O(N^3) programs, where N is the side length.
ok, so I think of on a section / rectangle on a boggle board
and then treat it as a code in a language and the output is give to robber ?
well not section/rectangle. you simply find a string in the boggle board (by normal boggle rules), and use that as the code.
oh so something like a CnR version of CH's last boggle question ?
it's probably similar for the robbers, except they have to find code in particular language with given output. I don't like that it's similar to CH's challenge, but feersum and Geobits convinced that there's no point in making it a word search
(which wouldn't really have been that different either)
6:06 PM
yeah (for the bracket part)
still, I think it's a better challenge with designed boggle boards and fixed outputs. his was just unbalanced, as proven by Sp3000's submission.
and the cops challenge has nothing to do with the previous challenge.
6:30 PM
@Optimizer @Geobits @feersum I've posted the boggle proposal. let me know what you think and if you'd close it as a dupe :P
its dupe in spirit
I don't think VTC works against that
so you'd only downvote it? ;)
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Martin BüttnerHide your code in a Boggle board! cops-and-robberscode-golfboggle This proposal is intended to supersede my earlier proposal Find the Needle in the Haystack, of which I'm not convinced any more that it would work very well. I'll keep both proposals around for now, though. The Cops' Challen...

@feersum a very jigsaw-y solution to this would be if you could move adjacent blocks around as a unit. this will be annoying to spec though.
6:39 PM
> Furthermore, the cops' challenge of designing the boards is completely different.
Agree with that, and wouldn't consider it a dupe for that reason, if nothing else.
haha, I'm looking forward to the robbers' thread being closed and the cops' thread remaining open... then the cops' thread will be closed as "too broad" because any submission will be valid, as there is no place to crack them :D
Eh, I think the robber isn't really a dupe anyway. Finding programs that give a certain output is different than finding a string to give arbitrarily big output.
my last message wasn't really serious, but thanks for the support. ;)
I figured that ;)
I think that is an interesting question about companion challenges though. What does happen if one gets closed and one remains open?
6:46 PM
War on meta/chat? :D
Last man standing with a close/reopen vote wins?
I'd like to allow reuse of characters in the Boggle board (for a single program). Opinions?
By revisiting only, or "hovering" on a spot consecutively?
revisiting only
although hovering would also be an option
I imagine that would make it harder to secure in languages with a limited character set.
Maybe harder to secure in general.
hm, possibly
6:53 PM
then any program colud be made in unary
I guess it has to be a specific language though
@feersum maximum 100 characters
@feersum and this
7:05 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

randomraPrint out the first N characters of your code You should write a program or function that receives a positive integer N as input and prints out the first N characters of your code. If N is larger than the length of your code you should continue output your code cyclically. Examples (assuming y...

do any of the coding geniuses here happen to know about this? stackoverflow.com/questions/28111245/…
@Lembik I don't have a solution but would sending everything to a file be any use? (So you can check them all by file instead of on stdout)
@trichoplax sure.. the problem is that I have no idea which file their code writes to
I know that's the opposite of what you want but I wondered if the consistency would make checking any quicker
@trichoplax although I do have the java source
7:20 PM
Oh! I see. So you'd be stuck hunting through every piece of source code to work out the output file?
I know you probably don't have this option, but I'd be tempted to send it back saying "You have zero so far, but if you fix it to output to stdout then I'll grade it"
what language is the code?
I'd be tempted to have future assignments write to a file by default, and give the required filename.
@feersum java
@Geobits well they were explicitly told to write to standard out :)
How many submissions are you trying to autograde?
@Geobits so I am not sure that would help too much
@Geobits 200
7:23 PM
I know, that's why I said "future" assignements ;)
you could make a regex replace blah blah . write() with System.out ;)
@Geobits no I meant in future assignment they would also ignore that instruction :)
@feersum it's not a bad idea but I was worried there might be lots of ways of writing to files in Java
I dunno... IMO if it doesn't meet the spec it gets downvoted until it does :P
@feersum but it might be the best way
@Geobits :)
gotta keep adding regexs until you find them all I guess
7:25 PM
@feersum right..... the pain :)
I can just imagine students baffled why their custom write() method isn't working.
maybe a PPCG challenge, write code to redirect any output to standard out :)
I mean write code to modify other code...
Very language dependent it seems. Java probably has 15 ways to write to a file (unfortunately), and more if we can use a few libraries.
@Geobits :(
All the various OutputStream forms especially.
7:28 PM
I like the idea of two teams... one team tries to write code to defeat your code
so you write code to redirect all output and I write code to get round your code
I would quickly resort to \u0000 format source to make people angry.
Or half and half, at least.
7:44 PM
@Geobits what is \u0000 format source ?
@Geobits can you really make compilable Java that way?
the Java answer to trigraphs, hehe
I've seen an answer here on PPCG that used it, can't remember to what challenge, though.
ok.. sounds wild :)
That's what I should have done for scrambled source. Just a ton of /, u and digits :D
I suspect the correct answer to my question is a customised virtual machine
but maybe some SO genius will come up with something
7:50 PM
It almost sounds like a better question for super user or unix/linux stack.
@Geobits you know I think you are right
I will delete and move
@Geobits I know what to look for if you're competing in the boggle challenge (if I even post it, that is) :P
I figure if I encode about half the characters that way and name all my variables with u and digits, it should be very confusing ;)
8:12 PM
@Geobits wow :)
@feersum did you see the winning score so far for my question? :)
assuming I got it right
very impressive!
it's almost like they tried to get the highest score
8:20 PM
if no one submits the O(nm^2 d) solution I will be sad
@feersum right :)
9:03 PM
wow, I guess not even able to pass the first level of play.elevatorsaga.com prooved forthwhile
now I have a generic elevator code that is passing levels one after another.
Does it give multiple elevators on higher levels? I only played with the first couple.
I have seen 6
Ah, good. Might have to give it a whirl some time.
I dont understand this one thing, when the first person is on level 0, why won't he go into the elevator ...
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