The Nineteenth Byte

3:00 PM

I think I'd definitely omit the history

No, this is supposed to be a deadlock problem. The asymmetry (as Peter Taylor pointed out) is also interesting enough to motivate me to write it

Sparr

@MartinBüttner do sharks fight after their first move? can they? do they just pass through an enemy?

Nathan Merrill

...when a creature is breeded, who controls it?

Martin Büttner

@Sparr "The first move must be made into an empty cell or it will be ignored."

@NathanMerrill it's a new instance of the same bot

Nathan Merrill

Ok, that's what I assumed, but that's never specified

Sparr

3:01 PM

@MartinBüttner two sharks try to move to the same space as their first move, result?

Nathan Merrill

I like each part of it...the strategies you could try with it are interesting

but there's too much, I think

cjfaure

web.archive.org/web/20020330125508/http://blorf.com/swirlies/… < web design in 2002

Nathan Merrill

but I don't know what to suggest to remove

because I like each part

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill thanks, will add it

@Sparr good question... both ignored I guess... seems simplest

Sparr

@MartinBüttner do new nets spawn in the middle of the whale layer, or do they start off the map and move inwards starting with their edges?

Martin Büttner

3:04 PM

@NathanMerrill yeah, I'm afraid that might be the case. but then again, for simple strategies you can stick to your breeding ground and ignore all of the stuff going on elsewhere.

Sparr

gonna stop tagging you :)

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill it's just that you can design more complex strategies that take everythin into account

Nathan Merrill

Why would I ever move to another breeding ground?

Sparr

if both sharks try to move horizontally in open water, they will get no indication of whether their first move was successful?

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill because you're at an advantage in other breeding grounds (if you want to go for an aggressive strategy)

Nathan Merrill

3:05 PM

...I am?

Sparr

why are you at an advantage?

Martin Büttner

@Sparr there is no "off the map"

@Sparr each hazard cancels the local species' boon

Sparr

huh?

Martin Büttner

so in the bottom layer all bots are blind, but sharks can still try two moves and whales still have an advantage in numbers

Sparr

err... is that documented?

Nathan Merrill

3:06 PM

Yes

Martin Büttner

in the middle layer, squid can avoid the jellyfish because they can see them before being affected

Rainbolt

@MartinBüttner Slight nitpick - "Your choice of animal determines where in which layer" => "Your choice of animal determines which layer"

Nathan Merrill

I never caught onto the hazards cancelling the bonuses

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill initialliy it was a design accident :D

Sparr

I don't see that in the spec

Martin Büttner

3:07 PM

@Sparr what part?

Nathan Merrill

@MartinBüttner I would definitely make the mantis have two possible choices then

otherwise the squids have an advantage

Sparr

cancelling bonuses

Martin Büttner

@Sparr well it's implied

Sparr

??

Martin Büttner

whales: higher population vs insta-killing nets

Sparr

3:08 PM

where?

Martin Büttner

sharks: faster moves vs paralysis

Sparr

I don't see anything even remotely close to that

Martin Büttner

squid: larger field of view vs blindness

Sparr

oh, wait

you don't mean their ability is actually canceled

but blindness is total, right?

it doesn't just reduce squid to range 1

Nathan Merrill

Ok...how tall are the nets, martin?

Martin Büttner

3:09 PM

@NathanMerrill ah yes, we were talking about this before... I think I just forgot to update that

Sparr

the spec says nets are 5 tall

the full height of the layer

Martin Büttner

@Sparr no everyone...

@NathanMerrill what Sparr said

Rainbolt

@MartinBüttner What happens when two jellyfish are adjacent? Are they stuck?

Sparr

so if you are "in" a net, on the top layer when you see it, you're fucked

Nathan Merrill

do the nets ever turn around?

Sparr

3:10 PM

unless you can swim down and forward as fast as its moving forward?

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt no they don't affect each other (well they fight if they step on the same cell, but they don't paralyse each other)

Rainbolt

So they have a special immunity to other jellies?

I would point that out

Martin Büttner

@Sparr yes you can do that. also if you're really clever, there's a way to step through the net.

@NathanMerrill no, the board wraps around.

I need to make notes

(because I don't want to edit everything in one at a time now)

Sparr

do nets move Y+1?

or faster?

Nathan Merrill

that doesn't make sense Martin

Martin Büttner

3:12 PM

@Sparr one cell at a time

Sparr

does successful breeding reset your 100 turn counter? failed breeding?

Nathan Merrill

the net starts at the top, moves up, then appears with the squid?

Sparr

@NathanMerrill you're confusing Y and Z

@NathanMerrill the nets are rendered in the spec from an overhead view. they are 5 layers deep, and they move north.

Martin Büttner

@Sparr ah damn, that's another thing I wanted to fix. successful breeding will probably reset it to 10, but I need to figure out the numbers for this.

Nathan Merrill

oh, y is always up in my mind, and x and z are the other directions

Sparr

3:14 PM

@MartinBüttner I really think that everyone is just going to stay in their breeding ground, avoid obstacles, and breed as often as possible.

x is east, y is north, z is up

y is south in some games with row/column maps

Martin Büttner

@Sparr I'm not sure that's the best strategy, because of overpopulation and things

but if you have suggestions for incentivising to leave the breeding ground let me know

Rainbolt

The breeding grounds are perilous. It would be easier to survive in the regular layers once the mines have been cleared, then return later to breed

Sparr

@MartinBüttner if the home layer gets full, you start sending out attackers, but until it's full there's no reason to leave

Rainbolt

I think this is a pretty sweet challenge

Martin Büttner

thanks :)

Sparr

3:16 PM

I still think the RPS thing is silly. You make a 'throw' every time you move? And unless you're fighting a shrimp you have random odds of win/draw/lose. Why not just make it random?

err, or a jellyfish

Martin Büttner

@Sparr when you step on a jellyfish, say, there is a chance that another bot does so to. in that case you have to decide whether you want to beat the jellyfish or the bot beating the jellyfish

Sparr

so the only RPS strategy is predicting when you might run into a jellyfish or shrimp, which can't overlap, or when you might encounter a player who thinks they are about to encounter a jellyfish or shrimp

Martin Büttner

(since you have to use the same throw for all fights within one round)

Sparr

if you lose to the jellyfish, you die, right?

Rainbolt

I think you should take it out too. Give a specific odds of survival for each encounter. Say shrimp == 66%, jelly == 66%, player = 50%

Honestly, I should have done that too for Wolf

Martin Büttner

3:17 PM

yeah, I'm not too opposed to that idea

Rainbolt

the RPS thing was a remnant of a challenge from a class I took that I really wanted to implement. Teaching us how to use enums and stuff

Nathan Merrill

I vote up on removing RPS

Martin Büttner

I was wondering if I could give them asymmetric odds between species, but that would drive the sharks towards their more likely prey, whereas their victim would have to pass by the sharks to get to their easy prey

Rainbolt

It would cut down on communication, which is a good thing since you are scraping for 3D surrounds. On a squid, that is going to cost you CPU time for sure

Martin Büttner

okay, it'll go

does anyone have an idea if I can make the asymmetric fights between bot species work without being unfair to either squid or whales?

Rainbolt

3:20 PM

What would asymmetric odds looks like? I have a 66% chance of winning and you have a 34% chance of winning?

Martin Büttner

what I mean is

sharks beat squid, squid beat whales, whales beat sharks (in 66% of the cases, respectively)

Nathan Merrill

you can't do that . Squid are at a distinct disadvantage

Rainbolt

That seems as easy as you just wrote it.

Nathan Merrill

if the world wrapped around z, then you could

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill right... but that's weird :D

Nathan Merrill

3:21 PM

but squid will be trapped by the sharks before the whales even come close

Rainbolt

Starred the post being discussed, for others who want to hop in and talk about it

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill yeah that I talked about earlier

@Rainbolt thanks

okay, no asymmetric odds, unless someone has a fair idea for it

Rainbolt

(not so hidden agenda... I can be lazy now and refer to the transcript instead)

Nathan Merrill

do you allow pass-throughs, Marin?

Martin Büttner

except... what if you're at an advantage in the other breeding grounds (because animals are totally unalert when in their breeding grounds)

Rainbolt

3:23 PM

Like I move to you and you move to where I was?

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill meaning?

Nathan Merrill

we are adjacent, both moving towards the other, and we miss each other

Martin Büttner

yeah that works

Sparr

what happens in a 3 way battle with all three throws?

R+P+S

Martin Büttner

@Sparr a pair is picked randomly, the winner fights the remaining animal

I think that's in the spec

Sparr

3:24 PM

it mentions ties, but I didn't know if that should count as a tie

Martin Büttner

ah the picking of pairs is missing

Rainbolt

I checked. It doesn't say how they fight

Here was my wording from Wolf: If more than two Animals collide, two are pseudorandomly selected to fight until one remains.

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt I actually wanted to copy that, but somehow missed it

Rainbolt

I've since learned that random is synonymous with pseudorandom for the purposes of this site

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt good point

So what do you guys think about being at a fighting disadvantage in your own breeding ground?

it would add another incentive to leave it and go hunting elsewhere

then again, you do die instantly anyway if you're breeding and someone attacks

Rainbolt

3:26 PM

For those that like references to meta: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/1325/18487

What do you gain from fighting?

Martin Büttner

reducing the enemies population

Rainbolt

If nobody cares about killing me specifically, I'm not motivated to flee the area where I am vulnerable

overactor

I was trying to design a divider in Marbelous, but my head exploded, time to go home

cya

Sparr

@MartinBüttner if I expect to fight a jelly and another player, I think I pick S, even if I expect the other player to also pick S.

Martin Büttner

@Sparr I think RPS is going to be ditched.

So that would just mean fixed odds.

cjfaure

3:30 PM

so...yeah

Rainbolt

I can see moving to the regular layers, but why would I venture into someone else's perilous grounds just to kill them

Sparr

@Rainbolt if your home and adjacent layers are completely populated

Rainbolt

Oh, so this is like end game strategy

Martin Büttner

Yeah probably. Or you could set half your population on attacking and the other half on breeding.

Rainbolt

Ok, I like the home disadvantage idea now. It gives your challenge a new depth called "end game"

Martin Büttner

3:31 PM

(if you notice that more bots breeding just lead to overpopulation)

Rainbolt

@MartinBüttner So let's say all six cells surrounding me are populated and I spawn a child. What happens?

Sparr

Expected value of my R/P/S throws
against a Jelly throwing P/s
and a player throwing R/P/S

       Jelly
      P     S
M R 0/0/2 3/2/6 13
e P 3/2/0 2/0/0  7
  S 2/6/3 0/3/2 16

Martin Büttner

so... the odds would be: 0% vs nets, 66% vs jellyfish and shrimp, 50% vs other animals UNLESS you're in your breeding ground, in which case it's 33%

Sparr

@MartinBüttner so, thematically, why are we vulnerable in our breeding ground? it seems like it would be our ideal environment

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt 6 cells? I count 26

Rainbolt

3:33 PM

6... sorry. above, below, left, right, front, back

You mean diagonally adjacent?

Sparr

including compound diagonals

Martin Büttner

yeah, it's that for all other mechanics

@Sparr I know, it's a bit weird...

Rainbolt

Ok let me rephrase. I am surrounded on 26 sides and I spawn a child. What happens?

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt it fights?

Rainbolt

Oh duh

Sparr

3:34 PM

it couldn't fight before you got rid of RPS :p

nice timing

Martin Büttner

phew

Rainbolt

Honestly, I think you should commit your probably massive edit then call for looks again

Cuz this is gonna be super fun if you get it just right

Sparr

@MartinBüttner what do jellyfish do if one of their upwards or downward moves would leave the shark layers?

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt okay, I'll do that as soon as I get home

@Sparr it doesn't... they just go up up down down up up down down

ah I see why you asked

there's another spec fix missing

basically they always do up up down down... but they will pick a player's cell if theres one diagonally above or below

(which ever direction they are currently moving)

Rainbolt

@MartinBüttner You have two special moves that are invalid that weren't present with Wolf. If you move up on the top layer, or if you move down on the bottom layer. I don't know if you need to specify what happens when you make an illegal move. Perhaps default to "Do nothing"?

Martin Büttner

3:38 PM

I'll specify that precisely later

Sparr

so if there's a jelly at the top of the shark layer, and I'm above it, it doesn't chase me?

Martin Büttner

@Sparr it doesn't even get there, but no it doesn't even chase you in the top shark layer

Sparr

jumping should totally be allowed! moving diagonally upwards at the top layer should hop over a space! :)

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt either that, or the vertical component is ignored

@Sparr lol ... sounds like a fun idea, but that would just be an unnecessary complication I guess

Sparr

yeah

Rainbolt

3:40 PM

I think it would be weird to move the player to a place they didn't exactly specify. I would say an illegal move should be outright ignored. It's easier for you too, instead of parsing the x and y components out of an illegal move

Sparr

can two nets be nested, randomly?

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt it probably won't matter for me but not moving to a cell you didn't specify is a good point

Sparr

N     N
NN   NN
MNNNNNM
MMNNNMM
 MMMMM
  MMM

Martin Büttner

@Sparr nah, I'll avoid that when placing them

Sparr

can they touch, side to side?

Rainbolt

3:41 PM

Aww no random super nets displacing the entire level lol

Martin Büttner

hm, that might happen, yes

Sparr

will two nets ever collide in opposite directions?

Rainbolt

Oh nevermind. Super nets ftw!

Martin Büttner

@Sparr I'll avoid that too

:P

Rainbolt

Killing my twisted dreams here Martin

Sparr

3:42 PM

if the map wraps around in X and Y, where do nets come from?

Rainbolt

Hahahahaha that is an awesome question!

Sparr

do they just always exist?

is this a religious question for the whale philosophers?

Martin Büttner

nets just exist

they've always existed since the beginning of time

(which was about 6500 rounds ago)

2

Sparr

roger that :)

Rainbolt

I assume you can spawn adjacent to a net? In that case, are you running for your life for all eternity, destined to never breed?

Sparr

3:44 PM

mines allow suicide attacks...

do more mines ever spawn?

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt there are two ways to dodge them

Sparr

ditto more shrimp / jelly?

Martin Büttner

@Sparr no, I think the game is short enough for that

Rainbolt

Oh wait I just realized you can swap levels to avoid nets. Thats far less scary now

Martin Büttner

that also gives the later rounds the distinct endgame feeling ^^

Rainbolt

3:45 PM

I'm still in 2D over here

Sparr

@MartinBüttner 1 chessboard distance means 6 neighbors?

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt that's one way

the other one is for pro-gamers

@Sparr that's manhattan distance

Sparr

@Rainbolt nets are 5 layers tall, you have to get out of the whale layers to get below them

Martin Büttner

chessboard distance is chebyshev distance

Sparr

got it

so one suicide bomber could kill 26 enemies, if he's smart/lucky

Martin Büttner

3:46 PM

yup

Nathan Merrill

We should have an info page with common "terms" that people can use in their posts

Martin Büttner

I think we were contemplating mine chain reactions but ditched for being too crazy

Nathan Merrill

because many KoTH have similar ideas

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill Rainbolt posted just that like 10 minutes ago

Geobits

Someone should totally post the link again and then remove it.

Nathan Merrill

3:47 PM

Ooh!

Martin Büttner

-.-

Nathan Merrill

I like it

Martin Büttner

this: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/1324/…

thanks a lot all of you... that was really helpful!

I'll edit in all the changes later and let you know so you can have another look if you like

@Rainbolt so... dining philosophers... what do you say about no history at all... only the current state and messages from other bots?

Sparr

4:04 PM

dining philosophers, no messages!

Rainbolt

No history, allowed persistence (I will strangle the next person that posts a comment about how allowing persistence breaks all that is holy), and I'll pass the current state. I don't think I'll allow messages. You don't to take the easy way out and say "I'm hungry, my turn to eat now."

Then you get into all sorts of mess like "How many messages can you pass?", "Do we all speak at the same time?", "How do I check my messages?", etc.

Plus, allowing communication doesn't help make asymmetrical decisions. All three bots could say "Give me your fork." Same problem as before, right?

Martin Büttner

yeah okay

so only the current state and persistence

Rainbolt

For Java entries, I guess that means static variables. Maybe I should point that out

I mean they could print to a file if they wanted

Martin Büttner

for java entries you might as well keep an instance alive

Sparr

take the Dogfight approach, one instance of their class that is never killed

Martin Büttner

4:09 PM

NINJA'D!

(it's the first time I'm not getting ninja'd today)

Rainbolt

Yea ok. So this will be weird. Java entries are persisted, and non java entries are called and then killed repeatedly.

The alternative would be to persist the non java entries as well

Martin Büttner

that's a good idea anyway

that will speed up test runs considerably

Rainbolt

But then they have to learn to how watch and wait for input. And that eats up CPU time too.

Nathan Merrill

My pacman works quite fast

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill what does that use?

Nathan Merrill

4:11 PM

I really don't think persistence with other processes is a problem

What language?

python

Sharing is caring!

I've tested 250 concurrent instances

Actually, I broke it out in a class so that it can be shared with other people\

with the 250, I started to get a bit of a slowdown

Rainbolt

Luckily I only have three participants ever. So that's four processes maximum.

Nathan Merrill

4:13 PM

given, they weren't doing much calculation

Rainbolt

Oh I know. I'm going to learn multithreading for real this time

I can ask all three philosophers for a decision at once!

Granted - I can't impose a time limit if they are sharing resources

Perhaps I can time limit the entire group? This is a cooperative exercise after all

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt I'm not sure that'll give a speed up if you need to sync after each round

but you can run all the tables in parallel

Rainbolt

I meant call upon every philosopher in parallel, then wait for all three answers to come back

The work being crunched by each philosopher would then be done in parallel, saving time

Nathan Merrill

pastebin.com/eUXbA46V

@Rainbolt

Sparr

anyone here know R?

Nathan Merrill

4:15 PM

oh wait

Rainbolt

bookmarked... thanks

Nathan Merrill

that's not complete

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt I get that... I think that won't help in 98% of the cases

you can parallelise better if you just run the different tables in parallel

especially since they definitely don't need to share anything

Sparr

@Rainbolt check out my wrapper class for the Dogfight contest. A java wrapper for a non-java process, which can persist.

Rainbolt

Oh I see what you mean

Martin Büttner

4:16 PM

and you can just pick the test runs from a queue in case one table finishes faster than the others

Sparr

pacman does similar

Nathan Merrill

pastebin.com/5jhUc4Xd

Ok. There's the full code

calling read_players() will return a list of communicators with 1 of each bot, each in its own process

Rainbolt

@Sparr I have both a persistent and non persistent Java wrapper. I haven't covered the communication part though, which is what I wanted to study Nathan's code for

And since I know Python, it's convenient

Thanks @NathanMerrill

Nathan Merrill

yep!

Sparr

if someone here knows R, I've got a great tip for you to get a winning answer to a code-golf

use r-forge.r-project.org/projects/vennerable to render an answer for codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/35722/…

Rainbolt

4:19 PM

Are R and RScript the same thing?

Martin Büttner

@Sparr built-ins and external libraries are disallowed

Sparr

aww

grumble grumble

Martin Büttner

the spec currently only says built-ins

I think he should fix that

Sparr

I am annoyed that golfing the output is the main part of the challenge

Rainbolt

This guy knows R (assuming RScript is the same thing) codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/25377/18487

Martin Büttner

4:20 PM

@Sparr that's the best thing about the challenge :D

and so far only the ASCII submissions got it right

Sparr

I think the data manipulation to convert three lists into the venn sets is a much more interesting problem to golf :(

Martin Büttner

@Sparr hm really? I don't know... it's just a bunch of intersections and differences

Sparr

sure, in languages with set intersection and difference operations :p

my entry handles it a little differently

Martin Büttner

hehe okay

Sparr

I actually do bit masking operations to determine which area each number belongs in

Martin Büttner

4:24 PM

I see

interesting

I still need to beat you on that :D

I've got one idea that might save quite a lot, but probably not 20 characters

but I also don't wanna ruin how perfect the result looks :D

Rainbolt

FML I can't even copy a database from my own machine to my own machine without problems. Why are all the useful error messages sent straight to the Windows Event Log? It's like SQL Server 2012 was invented in the 90s

Geobits

I.... have a problem.

I have a good idea for a 2v2 challenge.

Upon mathing, I've discovered that for complete coverage of all pairs vs all other pairs, I need 3C(n,4) matches.

Unfortunately, I estimate match length to be longer than this can accomodate.

Martin Büttner

hmmm

pick as many pseudorandom matches as feasible?

Geobits

That was my first thought, but I'm not sure how many would be necessary to be "fair".

Martin Büttner

split them up into teams?

Sparr

4:31 PM

@Geobits tournament brackets. split up into groups of 8, have all the 2v2 matches there, send the top 4 along, repeat.

Martin Büttner

I suppose I don't always fight with the same guy?

Geobits

Right. Each entry is paired up with all other entries.

Sparr

do the whole bracket a few times

Martin Büttner

I like that

Geobits

Hmm.

Sparr

4:33 PM

group size and number that advance are variables you can tinker with

Geobits

I'd have to handle byes, since not all C(n,2) are divisble by 8/16/whatever.

Sparr

but that structure will cut your total time down tremendously

Geobits

Agreed.

Sparr

you're going to get crap entries

seed in an arbitrary number of dumb bots

Geobits

Of course I am :D

Sparr

4:34 PM

pre-specify how the dumb bots will work. sit still, move at random, etc.

relevant to strategy since you'll get paired up with a dumb bot slightly more often than with any other individual

Geobits

That's not a bad idea.

Martin Büttner

lol someone didn't like my vulcan (codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/35085/8478)

not sure what that was about...

Nathan Merrill

New meta post, I hope it becomes useful :P

...is the bot down?

Geobits

It takes a few minutes. Supposedly up to ten.

ProgramFOX

@NathanMerrill No, it just takes some time before the feed posts the question.

Nathan Merrill

4:39 PM

ah

0

A: Interacting with persistent programs

Python This controller pipes to/from STDIN/STDOUT. In order to use it, you must: Have a directory bots in the same directory as your controller For each bot, create another folder with the bot's name within bots In each folder, create a command.txt containing a line with the command of how to...

New Meta Posts

0

Q: Interacting with persistent programs

In KoTH (and possibly other problems), you may want to be able to have 2 way communication with other programs, and for all of them to be persistent (they stay alive, waiting for information, and can return information) This is not simple code to write. Hence, I am looking to build a library ...

discussion

Nathan Merrill

-.-

Martin Büttner

congrats!

:D

you got ninja'd by the bot :)

2

it just refreshes every ten minutes

@NathanMerrill relevant: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/1593/…

Geobits

Also relevant: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/1683/14215

Martin Büttner

it's also relevant that Rainbolt and I would like to write just such a thing (but of course if a challenge host doesn't like the language we pick, having solutions ready in other languages would be nice)

Nathan Merrill

4:41 PM

yeah, both are relevant

but mine is actually where you would post the code

Martin Büttner

@Geobits wow I was searching for this when I wrote the KotH tag wiki and just couldn't find it

Geobits

@MartinBüttner About that... why not let the host use whatever language he wants? The framework can communicate with a controller just as easily as with a bot.

Instead of having an empty "fill me out" function for each turn, just have it pass the input/output back and forth.

Martin Büttner

that would work too

Geobits

Then you can just write template controllers for many languages without duplicating the framework itself.

Martin Büttner

good idea

Nathan Merrill

4:43 PM

...there's a problem with that

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt ^ the last 5 messages

Nathan Merrill

I thought about it

Geobits

@NathanMerrill ?

Nathan Merrill

...you have 1 controller, many bots

you need a way to specify to the controller which bot is sending the message, and which bot the outgoing message should go to

Geobits

Sure, there would need to be some basic protocol.

Martin Büttner

4:45 PM

hm depending on how much communication you have between controller and bots, that additional indirection could really become a problem

Nathan Merrill

also, consider that you can have multiple of each bot

do I pass in a name + unique identifier for each bot?

there's just a bunch of protocol needed for that

Martin Büttner

GUID should be enough

Nathan Merrill

no...because often I care about if the bots are different types or the same type

Sparr

integers should be enough

you tell the controller what type a new entry is when its created

Nathan Merrill

which would work...there's just quite a bit of protocol

Geobits

4:48 PM

@MartinBüttner The additional time could be a problem for some challenges. Perhaps make it optional? If a user wants to use another language, they can. If not, let them plug it in.

Martin Büttner

lol okay... the levels of indirection just make me chuckle...

so we have this framework as an abstraction where you just plug in your controller functions in the right places and can use a few helpers

now for people not wanting to do that, we implement one such controller which reads and sends data from a separate process instead

(like the wrapper for the Wolf bots)

Geobits

Something like that :D

Martin Büttner

but because we don't want people to deal with the ugly protocol, we implement such a separate-process controller in as many languages as we can, providing convenient functions to hide the protocol

Geobits

Alternatively, just provide one or two and crowdsource the rest.

Martin Büttner

well yes, but the idea is the same ^^

Geobits

4:51 PM

Still sound less complicated than a LAMP stack when you get right down to it :p

Nathan Merrill

Ok...more questions

...if a bot returns a message, where does the ID go?

on the first line?

at the beginning of each line passed?