The Nineteenth Byte

cjfaure

1:00 PM

it looks like a hat

Martin Büttner

@cjfaure why not just whitespace?

I don't understand

overactor

SO does a cloner split in two?

Martin Büttner

do you want to use it as shading?

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner so you can divide the code visually :D plus you can use dots if you're working in an environment that strips whitespace (i'm looking at you html)

Martin Büttner

@overactor I would like it to :D

cjfaure

1:01 PM

or if your spacebar is being mean

Martin Büttner

@cjfaure how about ASCII box drawing characters?

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner i thought that was in 1383 only?

Martin Büttner

it's totally 2014

cjfaure

xD

Martin Büttner

anyway, it's annoying to enter with a keyboard

overactor

1:02 PM

@MartinBüttner how do you do that monospace thing?

Martin Büttner

(see my Venn diagram)

Malachi

@EoinCampbell I didn't get to fixing that answer last night, major headache yesterday.....

Martin Büttner

@overactor multi line post, then four spaces

or click the "fixed font" button

Geobits

or ctrl+k

overactor

@MartinBüttner There's a fixed font button?

cjfaure

1:03 PM

ninja'd ._.

Geobits

I see no buttons...

cjfaure

@overactor if you shift+enter, it becomes visible

Martin Büttner

It appears when you add a line break

shift+enter

ninja'd, the fourth

Geobits

Huh.... I've never noticed that.

cjfaure

we're all ninjas today

i'm so ninja-y, i ate ramen for lunch

Geobits

1:04 PM

Ninjas don't eat ramen, the slurping gives them away.

2

Martin Büttner

@Geobits I know, right?

overactor

fuck it

Martin Büttner

spaces, mate... spaces

(or ctrl+k)

I'll try writing a multiplier

overactor

 A
  A
 \ /
\ /

multiply by 3

Martin Büttner

yeah

(I mean an n*m multiplier ^^)

overactor

1:08 PM

How do we generalize this

Yeah

Martin Büttner

I have an idea... give me 5 minutes

overactor

How do you stop a loop from running in general?

Nathan Merrill

break

Rainbolt

@overactor In what language?

overactor

@Rainbolt Marbelous

cjfaure

1:11 PM

deactivate the portal ;333

Rainbolt

Can't even Google marbelous properly. It doesn't even ask me if I meant marvelous. It just shows me the results it thinks I needed...

cjfaure

not sure how to do that

Martin Büttner

 P1 I1 .. I2 .. ..
 \  .. P2 A  P3 ..
 .. S1 S1 .. S1 ..
 .. .. \  .. A  ..
 .. S2 .. .. .. ..
 .. DD .. P2 .. P3
 .. P1 .. .. .. ..

cjfaure

@Rainbolt together we can change google

Martin Büttner

okay, so I used the following notation

PN are portal pairs

cjfaure

1:12 PM

google will ask people who google "marvelous" if they meant "marbelous" ;D

overactor

yes, notation important

Geobits

Change the Google, change the world.

Martin Büttner

I1 and I2 are where the inputs are assumed to fall in

SN are synchronisers

DD is a decrementor

cjfaure

@Geobits woah, don't get too far ahead of yourself, start with the world first

Martin Büttner

all that's missing is something to abort it when the value falling through the left column becomes 0

(but we haven't specified branches yet)

@overactor by toggling deflectors

we just need to specify how that works

I think P2 and P3 should be one cell further up

to avoid ambiguities

cjfaure

1:14 PM

afk for a few minutes, recording some piano tunez for the jingle

overactor

@MartinBüttner why is there only one S2?

Martin Büttner

forgot to remove that from an earlier attempt

ditch that line

 P1 I1 .. P2 I2 P3 ..
 \  .. .. .. A  .. ..
 .. S1 .. S1 .. S1 ..
 .. .. .. \  .. A  ..
 .. DD .. .. P2 .. P3
 .. P1 .. .. .. .. ..

now if you could toggle lower \ when the lefthand value becomes 1, you've got your multiplier

okay, seriously, how do you enter a single monospaced backslash in markdown?

overactor

No clue

Oh

I have an idea for branches

>n

only the biggest value falls trough

Martin Büttner

the biggest?

overactor

yeah

If you have 2 >1's in your program

every tick, it checks which values are in both operators

all but the biggest gets deleted

Martin Büttner

1:21 PM

oh I see... that's more like a "max" operator though, right?

when I saw your notation I thought it would be simpler:

overactor

Yeah, but you can use it to create branches

Martin Büttner

if the value coming in is greater than n, deflect to the right, else deflect to the left

you could use similar notation for <n =n etc

overactor

Since you know the value that falls through also has a position

but =255

Also not very dynamic

Martin Büttner

simply use the byte itself to encode the value

that will be annoying to enter for smaller values though

What do you mean by not dynamic?

overactor

well, compare two values with eachother with your operator

Versatile is the better word I suppose

Martin Büttner

1:25 PM

hmmm

let me think

you could build it in about the same size as the multiplier

the main problem is deflecting a value based on another value

(like in the multiplier)

you'd need deflectors that are linked to another switch

overactor

Which is exactly why I was introducing my max operator

Martin Büttner

How would that help for the multiplying case?

the decrementing value and the product are completely unrelated

overactor

If you also include a normalizer

Martin Büttner

you need to deflect the product when the decrementing value reaches 1

overactor

(makes 1 out of any value)

You can split your iterator

Martin Büttner

1:28 PM

ah I have an idea

overactor

normalize one clone

check which one is larger

Martin Büttner

it would probably even work with my branch

overactor

if the normalized on is larger, it'll fall through and you can portal it to somewhere so it'll toggle a deflector and break the loop

True, but my branch can relatively easily create yours

Split, normalize and multiply by a fixed value and max

Martin Büttner

P1 I1 .. P2 I2 ..
\  .. .. \  .. ..
.. S1 .. .. S1 ..
.. >1 .. .. A  ..
S2 .. -- .. .. ..
U  .. P1 S2 .. P2

U is a trash bin

Geobits

@MartinBüttner That's not a very nice thing to say.

Martin Büttner

1:33 PM

:D

overactor

@MartinBüttner That's not reusable though

Oh wait

Martin Büttner

@overactor in what sense?

overactor

it is

That's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen

Martin Büttner

-- is defintely the nicer mnemonic for a decrementer

overactor

True

++ for incrementor I suppose

Martin Büttner

1:34 PM

it doesn't work for a zero left-hand operator yet, but it's fairly compact ^^

wait that's easily fixed

cjfaure

back, and i'm so used to classical that I can only write in minor xD

failboat amirite

"Ninjas don't eat ramen, they cook them first."

Martin Büttner

P1 I1 .. P2 I2 ..
\  .. .. \  .. ..
.. >0 .. .. S1 ..
.. .. S1 ..  A ..
S2 .. -- 00 .. ..
U  .. P1 S2 .. P2

cjfaure

that would make a good terrible twist tiger

Martin Büttner

the 00 is a literal

now I'm writing multipliers in languages that don't even exist... PPCG is really destroying my life, I think...

2

overactor

Wait, what does a literal do?

Martin Büttner

1:38 PM

it's a value that starts there

damn, now it's not reusable

we need value factories

actually you can build them with a splitter an synchroniser

Rainbolt

@Geobits I know how to make people follow the format!

Martin Büttner

.. Pn ..
.. 00 ..
.. Sm ..
.. A  ..
Pn .. ..

is a factory for zeros that produces a zero, whenever Sm is triggered

(falling out to the bottom right)

Rainbolt

@Geobits Split from PPCG and build a web form dedicated to KotHs. You upload your code, give it a name, and specify the command that runs your program!

overactor

@MartinBüttner Nice

Geobits

@Rainbolt Well, yes, I suppose that would work. On a totally different site that you own, you could impose any rules you want.

Martin Büttner

1:42 PM

btw, in case it hasn't been clear, I think we should try to keep the concepts of the language to a minimum... this is not a productive or a golfing language, so there is no need for things to be concise... this is closer to manufactoria where it's fun to figure out how to even do the simplest things... and in the interest of getting a working interpreter, we should keep the components as simple as possible

cjfaure

that looks really weird on the sidebar ;_;

Still shorter than Python.

while 1:print(0)

Geobits

@Rainbolt That sorta defeats the purpose of "let's make it easier for people to post koths on ppcg", though.

Martin Büttner

well, lunch break is over, I need to get some work done.

Rainbolt

Well, maybe PPCG isn't the place for it. I feel like KotH has a lot more potential outside of PPCG

Martin Büttner

ping me if there's a google doc I can contribute to

Rainbolt

1:45 PM

@MartinBüttner docs.google.com/document/d/…

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt thank you

Geobits

@Rainbolt It probably does have potential elsewhere, just like other challenges. There are plenty of code-this-thing sites, but splitting off from PPCG is sure to lose a lot of audience.

Martin Büttner

except it's read-onlt :P

fail

Rainbolt

Reload lol

Martin Büttner

thanks

I added my contribution

Rainbolt

1:46 PM

Fabulous!

Geobits

What are we contributing to?

Martin Büttner

@Geobits to that google doc

Geobits

Ah.

overactor

.. P1 I1 .. .. .. I2 P2 ..
.. .. A  .. .. .. A  .. ..
.. -- .. S1 .. S2 .. -- ..
.. .. .. \f .. /f .. .. ..
.. >0 .. .. \t .. .. >0 ..
S1 .. P1 .. .. .. S2 .. P2
U  .. .. U  .. .. U  .. ..

takes two inputs, outputs the largest

Martin Büttner

what are f and t?

overactor

1:47 PM

fixed and togglable

Martin Büttner

does toggleable always toggle?

overactor

or togglable false and togglable true

I'd say yes

Martin Büttner

ah yes that's exactly how I imagined the computing max

wait I think the toggleable one needs to start in the other direction

otherwise it gives min

overactor

Oh, yeah

Or switch the S1 and S2 at the top

Martin Büttner

yeah

overactor

1:49 PM

That's quicker

cjfaure

a logo, anyone?

Martin Büttner

idontgetit

cjfaure

yay I'm doing all the useless stuff :P

overactor

Black line need sto be thicker

Sparr

@overactor whats that thing you posted above? what game?

Martin Büttner

1:51 PM

@Sparr this is no game!

cjfaure

it's a marble in a box o:

Martin Büttner

nah we're dreaming up an esolang

Sparr

ahh, for falling marbles?

cjfaure

You think this is a game?!

Geobits

Need moar drop shadowz

Martin Büttner

1:51 PM

@Sparr yes, basically

cjfaure

@Geobits it's supposed to be minimal ;_;

Sparr

woodgears.ca/marbleadd

cjfaure

i don't even know why i put the line in there xD

Geobits

it's supposed to be a joke ;_;

Martin Büttner

@Sparr you program a grid of "operators" (we need a better word) and bytes are falling through it. so the values themselves determine the control flow basically.

Geobits

1:52 PM

However, it is a bit flat for my taste.

I don't get "marble" from it.

Sparr

@MartinBüttner does it have arguments or just an input stream?

overactor

For functions, you define In as input points and On as output points

Sparr

@cjfaure make the circle more sphere-shaded, instead of just the one specular reflection?

overactor

You also give it a free character to represent it

cjfaure

@Sparr hm

Martin Büttner

1:54 PM

@Sparr the original ideas as STDIN coming through the top left corner

but if we add functions then you'd just choose your input cells

Sparr

can functions have multibyte arguments?

if so, do they fall in one at a time?

Martin Büttner

values are only bytes

overactor

Then in another function, you can put [FunctionChar]n as imputs for the function and

Martin Büttner

so you can just have multiple inputs

overactor

Wait, I'm stuck

Geobits

1:55 PM

@cjfaure To me the most recognizable feature that would scream "marble" would be some sort of swirl, either on the inside or outside: google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=marble%20ball

overactor

You need an additional character so you can use a function in multiple places

cjfaure

@Geobits got it, ty

Geobits

Otherwise it's just a ball.

overactor

@cjfaure Make it black and white

cjfaure

@overactor why? ;_;

xD

Martin Büttner

1:57 PM

@cjfaure one character for the function, one to enumerate the inputs

cjfaure

overactor

@cjfaure Or any two colors

Martin Büttner

oh

I thought you had replied to other post

cjfaure

eh? eh? o:

why thinks it should be b/w?

overactor

@MartinBüttner We need at least 3 characters in total

Geobits

1:59 PM

@cjfaure That one's about 431% better.

cjfaure

@Geobits i moved the dot a bit further in now

Martin Büttner

@overactor meh

cjfaure

i'll make it a line actually

overactor

[function identifier][inputnumber][tag]

Geobits

I think if you're going to crop it, though, you should crop the top-left curve out also.

It makes it look oblong to me for some reason.

overactor

2:00 PM

@MartinBüttner It's not looking good for functions

Martin Büttner

alternatively functions could just collect the inputs in a single cell

overactor

In a specific order?

Martin Büttner

well in the order the inputs are numbered in the function definition

overactor

And only start when It's full?

Martin Büttner

yes

it's a trivial change from your suggestion

overactor

2:01 PM

True

Martin Büttner

replace the functions with a portal, deflect both portals into a single function

cjfaure

how's that? :D

Martin Büttner

!!!

Geobits

Seriously, though, the name Marbelous sound like Engrish. It reminds me of Japanese bideo stores selling dibidis.

cjfaure

cjfaure, making terrible vector graphics since 2011

Rainbolt

2:03 PM

I just realized Google has the ability to filter by Stack Exchange results. site:stackexchange.com searchTerm1 searchTerm2

cjfaure

@Geobits took me longer than I'd like to admit to figure out you were talking about DVDs :P

overactor

@MartinBüttner Do we define functions though, or do we let the programmer create them?

Sparr

@Rainbolt Google can do that for any site...

overactor

The advantage of making actual functions is that you won't run out of portals too quickly

and you can use the function in several places

and you can do recursion

Rainbolt

@Sparr For those who are nitpicky like Sparr: I just realized Google has the ability to filter by a specific site's results.

overactor

2:06 PM

with portals, things get messy very quickly

Martin Büttner

@Geobits Marbles!

Geobits

@Rainbolt LMGTFY :p

Martin Büttner

@overactor you mean built-ins? naaah, no built-ins.

Rainbolt

I found a real application of a LMGTFY link and was unable to post it in the comments :(

Martin Büttner

we can optinally provide the SML (standard marble library)

overactor

2:07 PM

@MartinBüttner No I mean functions with their own body

Geobits

I should just use the text "LMGTFY" for any link that's actually useful, just to make people wary of it.

Martin Büttner

I don't understand

cjfaure

i updated marbelous-lang's avatar

overactor

Well, functions should have their own grid and all have their own identifier

and not be in some corner of the main grid and be accessed by portals

Martin Büttner

ah that's what you mean

yes they definitely have their own context

overactor

2:10 PM

Where does their output go?

comes out the bottom one by one?

Martin Büttner

any bottom cell

oh you mean when using them

comes out the bottom yes... how to handle multiple outputs is a good question

overactor

Maybe functions need to define output points?

and the function exits when they are all filled

Though maybe just one output is plenty

@cjfaure Nice, getting the important stuff out of the way first I see

cjfaure

@overactor yeah, it's vital :D

overactor

Is anyone saving these small grids we've been making?

Rainbolt

I've already added them to SkyNet. She is patching them together like a quilt to sleep in, except that she doesn't sleep.

Geobits

2:21 PM

Once she's done, we'll all sleep.

Rainbolt

That just made me shudder for some completely unrelated reason

Martin Büttner

@overactor I'll put them in a markdown file in a documentation repo later today

Rainbolt

We all float down here...

That's it I'm having nightmares tonight

Geobits

Yep, probably the creepiest book I've read.

I don't even know why, it just is.

overactor

We need a print operator

3

is there something like ASCII with 256 characters?

Geobits

2:24 PM

@overactor How much are you willing to pay?

3

Rainbolt

You are on a roll Baconbits!

Geobits

:D

Mmmm... bacon bits on a roll.

2

Rainbolt

Oh cmon keep the two related comments with equal stars

So they are next to each in the transcript

Martin Büttner

no problem

what book are you talking about?

Rainbolt

XD

It (novel)

It is a 1986 horror novel by American author Stephen King. The story follows the exploits of seven children as they are terrorized by an eponymous being, which exploits the fears and phobias of its victims in order to disguise itself while hunting its prey. "It" primarily appears in the form of a clown in order to attract its preferred prey of young children. The novel is told through narratives alternating between two time periods, and is largely told in the third-person omniscient mode. It deals with themes which would eventually become King staples: the power of memory, childhood trauma, and...

Geobits

2:26 PM

I just wish I could pin Martin's post from yesterday.

Martin Büttner

ah okay

overactor

We also need a paint pixels operator, which takes two coordinates and a color code

Martin Büttner

@Geobits it's going to float back up once you're posts get a bit older

@overactor what do we need a print operator for?

bytes falling out of the main grid are printed to STDOUT

Geobits

One more star and it ties for the most starred ever here.

Martin Büttner

@Geobits which one was that?

I was trying to find it

Rainbolt

2:27 PM

Omg I'm going to be nauseous by the end of the day if people keep saying float and other words that remind me of that

Martin Büttner

but couldn't find an option to sort by stars

overactor

@MartinBüttner Oh, right

Geobits

@MartinBüttner chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/240?m=15319200#15319200

Martin Büttner

and no I don't think Marbelous needs to be capable of graphical output :D

@Geobits lol

overactor

@MartinBüttner Come on

You can enable it and then you always get a 256 by 256 window

no smaller, no bigger

Martin Büttner

2:28 PM

@overactor you can write function that prints a ppm image to stdout

@Geobits how did you find it?

overactor

Someone should remove their star from that post

Geobits

I was curious yesterday, so I wasted some time then. Turns out it was something I'd starred, and when you use the "starred by me" tab it sorts by stars for some reason.

ProgramFOX

@overactor IIRC, you cannot remove stars anymore after a period of time (don't know the exact length of the period).

Martin Büttner

@overactor I don't think that's possible after some time

overactor

Too bad

Martin Büttner

2:32 PM

ninja'd, no. 5

I'm really slow today

ProgramFOX

@MartinBüttner "I don't that that" :P

Martin Büttner

@ProgramFOX wat

ProgramFOX

>:D

Geobits

@Rainbolt Forgive me for asking, but what do you have to do to get on this list? :o

ProgramFOX

@Geobits You have to ask a room owner/mod.

Martin Büttner

2:35 PM

:D

Rainbolt

What on earth?

OH!

cjfaure

i hit my rep cap for the second day in a row?

wat?

Martin Büttner

congrats! :)

Rainbolt

@Geobits Doorknob made me a room owner for like 3 seconds. Perhaps it had some side effects he did not anticipate lol.

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner ty :P

ProgramFOX

2:38 PM

@Rainbolt "Write access" does not do anything if you have the privilege to chat and if the room is public.

cjfaure

at this rate i'll be at 2k in no time...wow

Rainbolt

@ProgramFOX Yea I know. I learned at least enough in my Unix class to understand permissions. I think Geobits was just wondering how I got on the list because people like to be on lists.

ProgramFOX

Yeah, that's true :D

Geobits

@Rainbolt I was just curious, never seen the list before. I thought it was odd that there were only two people on it, an SE mod and... you :D

Rainbolt

I should be placed on the "can only send ten messages per day" list.

Nathan Merrill

2:41 PM

Almost finished with the controller for my Traders KoTH

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt waiting for Doorknob's "ask and you shall receive post"...

Rainbolt

@MartinBüttner Can you link to the post you wanted me to read that I said I would read yesterday? I'll read it but I'm super lazy

Martin Büttner

no problem

2

A: Proposed Question Sandbox - Mark XIV

Underwater Survival Game king-of-the-hill Lions and bears are extinct, the wolves dominate the fauna on land. But in the depths of the sea the battle for survival rages on. This is the spiritual sequel to Rainbolt's Survival Game, with a few additions. The arena is the sea and hence three-dime...

the specific numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt, since I haven't run any numbers for reasonable player densities etc.

but some feedback for the general concept would be nice :)

thanks!

Nathan Merrill

@Martin, how could you get in a fight choosing Breed and your opponent choosing Breed?

because you can't breed if you move

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill did I say that was possible?

(I think I may have added the not-moving restriction later)

oh I did write that

whoops

wait no

that does make sense

because nothing prevents you from choosing "Breed" while moving

you just won't actually create any offspring

Sparr

2:53 PM

@MartinBüttner a lot of pieces of the underwater challenge seem unnecessarily complicated, to the point that most entries will mostly or completely ignore them.

Nathan Merrill

...like what?

Sparr

the mantis shrimp

Martin Büttner

@Sparr that's not necessarily a bad thing if some people figure out to use them to their advantage

@Sparr all of the hazards are necessary to provide bots with an incentive to leave their breeding grounds

Rainbolt

@MartinBüttner I need some feedback as well, but not on the entire post just yet. For the Dining Philosopher's challenge, what exactly would a philsopher need to know in order to make a decision? The past history of all previous moves from all participants, or simply the current setup, or maybe even just the utensils that are to his left and right?

Nathan Merrill

The mantis shrimp could be used to hide

2:55 PM

@cjfaure thank you

;D

@Rainbolt will there be communication between the bots?

Sparr

also, the RPS combat thing... if you want pseudo-random, great, but adding a "track and predict opponents' combat" layer like the RPSLV tourney doesn't seem like it adds fun, just complexity

Martin Büttner

@Sparr The RPS is not intended to be tracked and predicted. It's near impossible as well. It just provides a rather simple combat system. And makes you think twice before engaging in combat, because you can't win with a high probably.

Rainbolt

2:57 PM

@MartinBüttner There can be. Brb have to do a code review.

Martin Büttner

It worked really well in Wolf.

Rainbolt

I could allow persistence to avoid having to pass the history

brb

Martin Büttner

just the current utensils plus messages from other bots could be interesting

you don't want this to be another pattern-matching KotH I take it

Transcript for