The Nineteenth Byte

overactor

11:00 AM

@MartinBüttner @cjfaure can you explain the rules of the language to me?

cjfaure

@overactor i'm not exactly sure of them myself 2.2

Martin Büttner

@overactor it's just a very vague idea... you've got inputs falling in from the top, and outputs falling out at the bottom... so the values themselves determine the control flow by falling through the grid

then you've got symbols to deflect those values and portals to bring them back up (for loops)

that's all we have so far

overactor

are those binary values?

Martin Büttner

nah probably not

(rep cap at 11am, I think that's a new record for me)

overactor

so you can have a six falling in the top?

Martin Büttner

11:02 AM

yep

overactor

what happens if values collide?

cjfaure

@overactor i say they just go through each other ^^;

githubphagocyte

Can a falling value switch a control symbol so that subsequent values are deflected differently?

Martin Büttner

@githubphagocyte yeah I think that's necessary

overactor

How do you do incrementation?

githubphagocyte

11:03 AM

Switching the direction of a deflector or switching a portal on or off elsewhere?

cjfaure

@githubphagocyte yes, but that would be a functionality of the symbol

Martin Büttner

@overactor by falling through an incrementor

overactor

ah ok

githubphagocyte

ah

Martin Büttner

@overactor the maximum survives

(I have no idea)

either you could realise an operation with that, or they could pass through each other

overactor

11:04 AM

can you define a function and then put that function in a grid?

Martin Büttner

but the latter is dangerous because you might not be able to separate them any more

@overactor I thought about that as well

that will be hard for multi-variate functions, because they'd need to span more than one grid cell

cjfaure

i'm thinking there shouldn't be functions

Martin Büttner

but why not

(simplicity... yeah...)

cjfaure

i think this kind of setup would work better in a typeless environment

each value would be a single byte

Martin Büttner

that was my first thought, too... but programming in brainfuck and friends is so tedious :D

then again this concept would be hard enough without types

cjfaure

11:06 AM

yeah, what's the point of a pretty language if there's no pretty code in it :P

overactor

can values be deflected upwards?

Martin Büttner

@overactor no (trampolines? :) )

no

cjfaure

with portals, they can be transported back to the top

Martin Büttner

yeah only that

but if you had something like trampolines, you'd need to determine when they start falling back down, or you get Befunge :D

cjfaure

let's call them "gotos" ;3

Martin Büttner

11:08 AM

I like portals

overactor

to what degree can the be deflected sideways?

should deflectors not just all be replaced by portals?

they*

cjfaure

i'm thinking they only fall down, they can only change column

portals can change both row and column ofc

Martin Büttner

I thought you could deflect them by one column using / or \

cjfaure

yeah ^

githubphagocyte

what about a sushi conveyor belt?

overactor

11:09 AM

Is the grid a cilinder?

Martin Büttner

@overactor why not

overactor

i.e. does it wrap around?

cjfaure

i think that'd be useful, yeah

the top of the grid is stdin, the bottom is stdout

Martin Büttner

@githubphagocyte you mean where it lands and then is transported several columns to the right or left? sounds fun but unnecessary

githubphagocyte

yes totally unnecessary :)

Martin Büttner

11:10 AM

@cjfaure do bytes all fall in through the same cell? or multiple cells?

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner the same, the top left

anything that falls out the bottom is placed on stdout, if multiple fall at the same time they're sorted left-to-right

overactor

how is it determined where the values of stdin fall in?

Martin Büttner

(the next step will be the pinball language, which has actual simulated physics and all the funny buttons and triggers are the commands...)

githubphagocyte

lol

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner so then you program an ai for the paddles

Martin Büttner

11:12 AM

@cjfaure one byte at each time step, or is there a pause? or can you even decide the frequency for yourself in the code?

cjfaure

IDEA: Don't just write a language for that, build a processor for it

@MartinBüttner the first

Martin Büttner

@cjfaure well not really an AI... the code is just a list of commands with a time when each pad should flip

overactor

shouldn't everything fall in at the same time?

Martin Büttner

@overactor then you can't have arbitrarily large inputs

cjfaure

@overactor then you need to make your plane arbitrarily wide

no thanks

overactor

11:13 AM

Good point

cjfaure

Now

overactor

They all fall in at the same spot then?

cjfaure

one very important thing

how do programs terminate?

@overactor yeah

I think they should drop out a null byte

githubphagocyte

I still keep picturing a cube, so that there can be streams of values at right angles intersecting as they descend diagonally

cjfaure

or perhaps a "terminate" operator?

overactor

11:14 AM

terminate operator seems like the better solution

luser droog

@MartinBüttner That's like combining the Pauli matrices with the Kronecker delta. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_matrices

cjfaure

this language works well, you can have a "file" operator as well and drop in a location, then a mode and it'll either drop out bytes or you can drop some in

we need gates

overactor

wait

cjfaure

that you can attach to an output stream to stop it temporarily

so you can put a gate on the top left and open it when you want input

overactor

nvm

Martin Büttner

11:16 AM

@cjfaure I'd say, when all values have left the grid. you can add a trash bin to get rid of unwanted values

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner makes sense

Martin Büttner

@luserdroog yeah, the idea is similar ^^

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner how would value literals look?

Martin Büttner

@cjfaure what do you need them for?

constants?

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner if you don't have value literals, then the program will terminate on the first time step.

Martin Büttner

11:17 AM

that already start in the grid?

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner mhm

Martin Büttner

@cjfaure no, in the first step you get the first byte falling in through your input

but I think if we use two-character cells, then any cell starting with [A-F\d] (followed by another such character) is a value literal

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner but then it's useless for golfing because it requires input from the console

luser droog

I just saw that Kronecker delta thing yesterday. So now I'm seeing it everywhere.

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner cool ;D

@luserdroog frequency illusion

Martin Büttner

11:18 AM

@luserdroog the kronecker delta is lovely

have you come across the Levi-Civita symbol yet? that's the next step up ;)

overactor

Will you need an operator that holds a value for a certain amount of ticks?

Martin Büttner

some sort of delay? ... would probably be convenient

luser droog

No. I found the Kronecker delta described in some Ken Iverson papers. Then I saw it actually used with the Pauli matrices

cjfaure

i'm thinking a way to disable a portal temporarily

and then enable it again later

Martin Büttner

@cjfaure what happens when it's disabled?

cjfaure

11:21 AM

@MartinBüttner values fall past it

overactor

How do you associate a portal entrance with a portal exit?

githubphagocyte

Can a portal exit in the same column higher up, to give a timer?

cjfaure

@overactor similar identifiers; p1 and p1 link to each other, p2 and p2, etc

if you have more than 2 per group, a random one is chosen

Martin Büttner

what cj said

cjfaure

yay, now the language is non-deterministic ;D

Martin Büttner

11:22 AM

@cjfaure or maybe just a syntax error? :D

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner but then how do you choose a random value?

Martin Büttner

then again it would provide a neat way to add a PRNG

cjfaure

yeah

overactor

portals are just a way of implementing a randdom number

random*

cjfaure

and also looping

wait

Martin Büttner

11:23 AM

@githubphagocyte sure

cjfaure

wooow

I think,

there should be 3 kinds of portals

o.O

entry, exit, either

what for?

@MartinBüttner write a loop that randomly chooses a body, I dare you

xD

without the distinction between receiving and sending portals, it's near impossible

Martin Büttner

11:24 AM

no it's not

cjfaure

the portals at the bottom of the loop need to be the same class as the one back at the top, right?

so then what's stopping it from just choosing another exit and falling out?

Martin Büttner

p1 p1 p1
........
\      /
   p1

overactor

you can use deflecting though

cjfaure

aaaand i was thinking of it upside down.

xD

overactor

@MartinBüttner what about 2x2 cells in stead of 2x1?

cjfaure

11:26 AM

it gets a bit harder though, if you have complex nested loops and stuff

overactor

more room for info and more square-ish

Martin Büttner

@overactor I actually find 2x1 more squarish in ASCII art

overactor

depends on the font

cjfaure

so why not add the distinction like p1 for both, P1 for being an exit, and e1 for being an entry?

Martin Büttner

yeah but it's the case for most mono-spaced ones

overactor

11:27 AM

You need a custom font

cjfaure

heeeey @Doorknob

Doorknob

@cjfaure Hello!

Martin Büttner

@cjfaure in that case, could a p transport you to itself?

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner no, that's hardcoded to be disallowed

overactor

you could make functions work by the way

cjfaure

11:28 AM

@overactor with portals

o:

overactor

yup

Martin Büttner

what about synchronisers in addition to delays?

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner fanceh!

overactor

I wa sthinking the same

Martin Büttner

like two or more trays that don't release whatever they catch until they are all filled

overactor

11:29 AM

can be arbitrarily wide

cjfaure

gets a bunch of rep, changes avatar, changes name, flees country

Martin Büttner

well they don't even have to be adjacent

overactor

ah right, just associate them

Martin Büttner

just use them like portals with S1, S2 and group them by numbers

cjfaure

yeeeessss

that's awesome :D

overactor

11:30 AM

when values enter a function, that function get resolved immediately, right?

Martin Büttner

@overactor IF we add functions, yes

cjfaure

eh?

Hm.

Martin Büttner

okay, how about the only binary operation is addition modulo 256 (modelled by collision, either during the fall or in a snychroniser or delay)

cjfaure

I think we need a way to group values into a single cell

Martin Büttner

@cjfaure why? (and how would you separate them)

overactor

11:32 AM

@MartinBüttner I like it

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner exploders would take in groups and drop them all out in sequence, and for more convenient passing through portals

and i just used a php term, yay

Martin Büttner

hmmm

cjfaure

that way, when values intersect, they immediately form a group

overactor

What about an operator, that makes a value turn into a given operator after a given amount of ticks?

Martin Büttner

I'd call them multiplexers :D

cjfaure

11:34 AM

okay ;D

@overactor i think the board should be static

Martin Büttner

@overactor a value into an operator? o.O how would that work?

self-modifying boards... that would be... not manageable :D (but intriguing)

overactor

@Martin Reflective programming

cjfaure

static boards are 1) optimizable 2) compressible 3) you can generate them from another language

overactor

@cjfaure good point

cjfaure

i think a rule we should follow here is we should be able to translate c code into this language using only deterministic logic

easier to implement, easier to write ;3

overactor

11:36 AM

is it an interpreted language?

cjfaure

@overactor not necessarily

interpreting it would definitely be easier

though in theory it's compilable

overactor

Debugging a program in this language would be grand

Martin Büttner

I'm looking forward to debuggers

ninja'd

cjfaure

that wouldn't be too hard to do with the right infrastructure

also, imagine an IDE for this

it'd be like GIMP xD

overactor

testing a program could be awesome

you can add a value in any cell at every cell

cjfaure

11:39 AM

;o

Doorknob

@MartinBüttner Just so you know, you can flag standard loophole exploiting answers as NAA too (there's one in the queue which you commented on, but never flagged).

Martin Büttner

@Doorknob I delete voted in the review queue

I was looking for the NAA delete vote reason, but forgot that that's only for flags

Doorknob

Ah, right, there's no flag button in review. Meh. There should be

ProgramFOX

@Doorknob There is a userscript for that: github.com/Undo1/FlagFromReview

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner Should I write a theme song for this?

y'know like they did with chuck

Martin Büttner

11:44 AM

no I don't

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner cs.princeton.edu/~prc/HackChuck08.mp3

Martin Büttner

no headphones

cjfaure

@MartinBüttner it's hilarious

overactor

So is there any chance this language actually going to happen?

Martin Büttner

some day...

if I didn't have so many PPCG challenges planned which I don't get around to bring to life I might actually start working on this.

cjfaure

11:50 AM

o;

overactor

Can you make arrays work?

cjfaure

@overactor that would be multiplexing

overactor

aha, yes

cjfaure

i have this weird fixation with PLAs :P

Martin Büttner

what for... you've basically got generators :D

overactor

11:52 AM

are there operators that shift the order of a multiplex?

cjfaure

@overactor they're orderless

...right?

overactor

They could be ordered

and you could operate on the front element only

cjfaure

vv
\/

what order would that be? :P

wait, what would actually happen there?! xD

overactor

that way you could iterate through a multiplex nicely

they switch lanes I suppose?

cjfaure

@overactor yeah

We need a pop operator

to split a multiplex into the one on the top and the rest

githubphagocyte

11:55 AM

Could you produce output from the side instead of the bottom?

Martin Büttner

I'd say we should just ditch the multiplexers

githubphagocyte

and have the bottom wrap back to the top?

Martin Büttner

they complicate things unnecessarily

Doorknob

@overactor I read through some of the transcript and it looks quite interesting! Perhaps you could make a Github repo to work on it together

overactor

They also enable you to write simple programs in less than a million cells though

cjfaure

11:56 AM

@MartinBüttner kk

xD

Martin Büttner

can't you simulate them with a couple of switches and synchronisers?

btw we definitely need a way to toggle a deflector each time it's used

overactor

@Doorknob I'm not knowledgable enough, besides it's @cjfaure's idea

@MartinBüttner Yes

cjfaure

Github repo? Don't you mean organization? ;3

Martin Büttner

with that a multiplexer becomes trivial

cjfaure

yeah, you can set up a makeshift gate system with synchronizers

i love it :DD

should we start throwing some documentation together in a google doc?

Martin Büttner

11:59 AM

hm I can think of a few more ways I'd like to trigger toggling a deflector... maybe we need a more general concept for that

@cjfaure or in a github repo as a markdown :P

overactor

@cjfaure Why not start that organization?

Transcript for