The Nineteenth Byte

noodle man

00:19

PSA unity basically just reverted the stupid pricing changes if you make <$1,000,000 per year. if you make more than that you can make a choice between 2.5% rev share and the runtime fee. pricing changes only affect later unity versions, not the current one

blog.unity.com/news/open-letter-on-runtime-fee

DLosc

@cairdcoinheringaahing BRB, making a D&D campaign setting in which there's a cult that worships the twin gods Kleisli and Cokleisli

Bbrk24

I just noticed this challenge:

57

Q: Output programming language name

Challenge: In the programming language of your choice, take no input and output your programming language's name. Fair enough, right? Restrictions: You can't use any character that is included in your programming language's name in your code. E.g., if I use Batch, I must not use the chars 'B...

I almost added enum A<B>where()==B{} for Swift 5.7 to the CW answer and then I realized

It was an error in 5.6 and earlier, then 5.7 downgraded it to a warning but still says "this will be an error in Swift 6"

DLosc

00:36

Also wouldn't it violate the source restriction by including w, which is in the name "Swift"?

Bbrk24

that's what I realized eventually, yes

DLosc

Ah, I see, that's what you meant by "then I realized"

Bbrk24

if you open the repl it says "welcome to swift [version]" before printing the first prompt. Could I say like "swift 5.9, repl, 0 bytes"?

$ swift repl
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'lldb'
Welcome to Swift version 5.9 (swift-5.9-RELEASE).
Type :help for assistance.
  1>

DLosc

Maybe start another CW answer? That probably works in a lot of languages, e.g. Python.

Bbrk24

there's also the classic swift --version

pfft

$ swift

Welcome to Swift!

Subcommands:

  swift build      Build Swift packages
  swift package    Create and work on packages
  swift run        Run a program from a package
  swift test       Run package tests
  swift repl       Experiment with Swift code interactively

  Use `swift --help` for descriptions of available options and flags.

  Use `swift help <subcommand>` for more information about a subcommand.

swift -v prints the output of both swift --version and swift by itself for some reason

Bbrk24

00:57

I have some ideas but they'd only work in Swift 2 on macOS (not even on Linux) so for obvious reasons I'm having a hard time testing it

Rydwolf Programs

02:39

2500 rep bounty to anyone who can implement a Turing Complete language in Trianguish (with default settings; i.e., no bigints)

6

It would involve heavy self-modification

emanresu A

Has Trianguish been proven TC yet?

Rydwolf Programs

I believe it is. I can't prove it, but I think it's possible to build a program that can build a sort of "snake" that can traverse to any point on the grid and place a cell

So you'd be able to just slowly build up infinitely many storage cells

Also this commit lol:

Unrelated String

ahahahahaha

Bbrk24

Unrelated String

~~should have been for (;;) to for (;n;)~~

Rydwolf Programs

02:43

Here's some discussion of Trianguish TCness in TST a minute ago:

Trianguish TC

21 mins ago, 10 minutes total – 24 messages, 3 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 15 secs ago by Rydwolf Programs

Bbrk24

@UnrelatedString you jest but typescript-eslint prefers for (;;) over while (true)

Unrelated String

good

Rydwolf Programs

The idea I had for linear time increase in memory seems super cool but it involves building a quine with a massively nontrivial payload

Unrelated String

it's unironically just better lol

the joke comes in with not changing it from for (;;) to while (n)

Bbrk24

@UnrelatedString Tell that to Python

Rydwolf Programs

02:45

for (;;) just iterates over spiders

Bbrk24

???

Unrelated String

what

Bbrk24

my personal favorite is

Rydwolf Programs

(;;)

It looks like a spider;s face

Unrelated String

ah

Bbrk24

02:46

 #define ever (;;)

Unrelated String

ahahahhaha

yes

Bbrk24

@RydwolfPrograms github.com/bbrk24/Trilangle/commit/…

Rydwolf Programs

> Fun fact: The original idea for Trianguish, years ago, was for it to simulate living organisms, or other complex macro-scale automata. This would not work, since the density of builders to support ops is likely far too low for self-moving structures to be built.

I would also love to be proven wrong on this xD

@RydwolfPrograms Oh, @lyxal, would you mind making "Trianguish" a link in this message to github.com/Radvylf/trianguish

lyxal

Done

Rydwolf Programs

Thanks! :D

thejonymyster

04:52

@UnrelatedString the Isaac operator (;n;)

Unrelated String

pfffff

thejonymyster

i love the funny names programmers give to things like splat and void and currying and uhh

thyeres a really silly one im forgetting

tip of my tongue but im not even close

Unrelated String

elvis operator?

thejonymyster

oh my god probably but i was not going to remember that haha ty

theres probably way more but yea exactly

Unrelated String

turbofish

~~t_paamayim_nekudotayim~~

emanresu A

05:16

Also the downto operator n-->5

And the spiked lance operator 5<-+-+--n

thejonymyster

lmao what even is that second one

@emanresuA thats a classic

srory im tired i dont know how to communicate

Unrelated String

and the logical implication operator, <=

thejonymyster

05:32

the logimplicator

inator

Bbrk24

05:53

@thejonymyster Curry was the guy's name

Haskell Curry

Haskell Brooks Curry (; September 12, 1900 – September 1, 1982) was an American mathematician and logician. Curry is best known for his work in combinatory logic, which initial concept is based on a paper by Moses Schönfinkel, for which Curry did much of the development. Curry is also known for Curry's paradox and the Curry–Howard correspondence. Named for him are three programming languages: Haskell, Brook, and Curry, and the concept of currying, a method to transform functions, used in mathematics and computer science. == Life == Curry was born on (1900-09-12)12 September 1900 in Millis...

l4m2

06:07

CMC: Search the input internet

Simd

walrus operator?

Bbrk24

@l4m2 macOS zsh: open "https://google.com/search?q=$1" (not sure whether open is a mac thing or a zsh thing)

that doesn't handle & correctly I suppose

open "https://google.com/search?q=${1//&/%26}" then?

lyxal

@l4m2 so uh now what?

l4m2

@Bbrk24 Why u need https, don't http work?

Bbrk24

oh it probably does I just am so used to https by this point

at least on iOS you need special permission to open http links, but you can open https links by default

l4m2

06:19

This is CMC another reason it aims to find searching engine with shorter URL

Bbrk24

fine then, s/google/bing/

(yes, the URLs really do follow the same format)

l4m2

bing http://bing.com/search?q=$1

Bbrk24

but note the language I'm using, this is a zsh script

l4m2

Also a country instrad of com may save one byte

if it exists

Bbrk24

would it? In other places it's e.g. .co.uk, not .uk, right?

lyxal

06:24

@l4m2 Vyxal, 15 bytes: ‛∷%?\&`%26`V%¨U

The longest part is escaping ampersands

Bbrk24

Fun fact: cmd doesn't use \ to escape spaces the way bash does. It uses %20

l4m2

@lyxal Is it shorter to escape only & or all chars?

Bbrk24

oh that is true, superfluous percent escapes are fine

Unrelated String

ahaha

lyxal

@l4m2 shorter to escape no characters :p

Also, probably shorter to escape all

BTW ∷ is Google

thejonymyster

06:43

@Bbrk24 curry was the name of the doctor

4

mousetail

08:22

Haskell Curry does sound like the name a fanfic author would give to a functional programmer

Unrelated String

it really does

how many other people have ever ended up having things named after specifically their first and last names separately

mousetail

It requires a somewhat unique first name

Unrelated String

yeah

mousetail

08:38

Is there anyone who has something named after their middle name too?

Sandbox Posts

09:11

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Execute... yourself! Almost a duplicate, but only requires you to compile a subset, and is closed. You work at a compiler factory, making compilers tailored to your customers. Challenge In a programming language of your choice, write a program that executes code in the chosen language. Snippets...

The Empty String Photographer

09:42

@SandboxPosts Why was my sandbox post downvoted?

AviFS

anti-onebox youtube link

Okay, wait sorry. Actually the one to watch is this one:

monty python sketch

The Empty String Photographer

@RydwolfPrograms Brainf--- it is.

AviFS

@lyxal more tnb memes

lyxal

10:33

@AviFS you realise I'm always going to be suspicious of your messages now right?

I haven't clicked that link because I know what you always try to do :p

Simd

11:12

Hello all

emanresu A

11:40

@thejonymyster Nah, Curry comes from Steph Curry

Their signature play is the three-point combinator, a recursive offense which is guaranteed not to halt and continues accumulating points until the buzzer.

math scat

okay for some reason after selecting a static ip SE wasn't working

a lot of other websites were functioning completely fine

no clue why

The Empty String Photographer

12:34

TIL apple has middle finger emoji 🖕

CUC (Chat Unclear Challenge): Make a quine that runs in polynomial time.

mousetail

12:55

what is N?

Does O(1) count as polinominal?

The Empty String Photographer

@mousetail I guess :p

mousetail

Then any quine would count

The Empty String Photographer

It’s the polynomial n^0

mousetail

Quines take no input so can't take any other amount of time

The Empty String Photographer

@mousetail hence why it’s CUC

mousetail

13:00

I don't think there should ever be another CUC

Even the acronym is unfortunate

And how is anyone supposed to answer a challenge that is unclear?

The Empty String Photographer

CFC (Chat Funny Challenge ~~or Chlorofluorocarbon~~): Make any algorithm that runs in O(2) time.

Simd

@TheEmptyStringPhotographer 1

That's in python

The Empty String Photographer

@Simd Nope. O(2) algorithms must run two times slower than O(1) algorithms :p

lyxal

I feel like that may not be how O(1) works :p

math scat

^ lol

The Empty String Photographer

13:06

@lyxal Note the :p :p

math scat

oh :P

The Empty String Photographer

q:

I have two tongues q:p

bq funny letters

mousetail

@TheEmptyStringPhotographer There is no such thing, google big O notation

lyxal

holy time complexity

mousetail

Actual omega

math scat

13:20

new time complexity just dropped

lyxal

call the polynomial time algorithm

mousetail

Do you think N=LN?

Rydwolf Programs

Me dropping an O(i) algorithm

Also happy bisexual visibility day!

And first day of fall!

lyxal

@mousetail Knight = Large Knight?

knight promotion :p

mousetail

Logarithmic = Nondeterministic Logarithmic

It's also unsolved

Rydwolf Programs

13:24

Okay I gotta say the whole CUC convo above is absolute gold

Okay so I'd been planning to make an alternate mobile interface for chat. Problem is, part of the goal would be to have better tooling for ROing and ideally moderation, but I'm not a mod

I actually think I might be able to reverse engineer a lot of the mod API from chat's JS

But either way, a list of all of the mod-only features the interface should have would be useful if any mods have the time

(...or happy first day of spring for the upside down among us :p)

lyxal

> among us

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mousetail

That's sus

Rydwolf Programs

@lyxal You forgot to make it upside down :p

mousetail

I see it upside down, @RydwolfPrograms are you secretly australian?

Rydwolf Programs

Ooh "flip a braille image upside down" could be a cool challenge, I call dibs

noodle man

13:33

@mousetail only if L = 1

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail Oh no, my secret's been revealed D:

mousetail

@noodleman Go win your millenium prize

Actually not sure if there is any money on that but it would be a bit achievement and a important step towards solving P=NP

lyxal

57

A: A guide to moderating chat

What tools are available to moderators? Moderators are our human exception handlers and will get involved when users and room owners can’t handle a situation on their own. If flags are raised or they are notified of something, then a moderator will step in to investigate and resolve the problem....

Simd

@TheEmptyStringPhotographer ah...1+1 ? :)

Rydwolf Programs

Since N=LN and P=NP, we can divide out to 1/P=1/L. Thus, polynomial=logarithm

3

Simd

13:36

@RydwolfPrograms yes np=p if p is small or n is 1

The Empty String Photographer

@mousetail Hence why it’s CFC

noodle man

13:56

should invalid submissions be mod flagged?

i can never remember these things

Ginger

~~here we go again~~

math scat

what.

noodle man

i've seen that popup for like 2 weeks

lyxal

14:08

@Ginger you realise this was announced in July right? :p

Also, I haven't been able to try and break it yet because I still don't have access to it yet 😭

Seggan

@TheEmptyStringPhotographer it's physically impossible. You can't define O(2) because the speed of O(1) is not defined

lyxal

@noodleman if there's been a reasonable amount of time to fix the answer, you can raise one

No guarantees on handling ofc

noodle man

@lyxal almost 5 years seems like enough time don't you think? :p

Ginger

@lyxal well actually no I did not

lyxal

@noodleman I do :p

@Ginger stackoverflow.blog/2023/07/27/announcing-overflowai

noodle man

14:12

actually i misread the date, it was actually posted 7 years ago

lyxal

The SE CEO gave a big presentation on a stage at a conference and everything

I never watched said presentation of course

noodle man

hell yeah AI is the future bros!

have yall seen v0.dev

its like midjourney for reactjs

lyxal

@noodleman I have now

But alas there's a waitlist

noodle man

i haven't used it yet but i saw a couple videos on it and it seems like it works pretty well

lyxal

You have access to it?

noodle man

14:24

it outputs react w tailwindcss and shadcn/ui components

@lyxal nope i'm on the waitlist though

lyxal

Ah dang

Wanted to see what it generates for "The next best chess move in the sequence "1. d4 e5 2.""

Because that's what I do best. Play chess with ai that really isn't designed to do so :p

noodle man

i'll try that when i get on lmao

math scat

@lyxal clearly Kd2

user

15:35

@UnrelatedString also middle name (brooks)

Neil

@RydwolfPrograms why just upside down? why not left-to-right or rotated?

Rydwolf Programs

16:44

@Neil I don't think that'd add much

With just upside down I could see there being cool bitwise tricks

If you have to handle all 8 transformations it'd just get annoying

noodle man

@RydwolfPrograms maybe rotate 90°?

Rydwolf Programs

yeah but then you have to handle characters made up from multiple other characters

Actually maybe "flip a single braille character upside down" and "rotate a braille image" could be a good pair of challenges

Since I don't think the flipping the image as a whole adds much to the former

Whereas for the latter you're necessarily manipulating manipulating characters based on their neighbors

The Empty String Photographer

17:50

My password is ⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️⬛️

@Seggan the speed of O(1) is 1 second :p

thejonymyster

18:24

rotate a braille image 45 degrees as a horrible follow up :-)

noodle man

@thejonymyster oh dear god

(i literally spoke those words out loud as soon as i read your message lmao)

Ginger

18:57

in The Sand Trap, 3 mins ago, by Ginger

upvotes please!

(so that the bot can use chat)

caird coinheringaahin g

19:43

@RydwolfPrograms It's been like, 18 months, and this still hasn't loaded for me. Do you think I need to download more RAM?

Ginger

probably

Rydwolf Programs

No you probably just have a bad connection. Have you tried to tie a string between two cans and put one over your router's antenna?

caird coinheringaahin g

What do I do with the other can?

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms CAT4 string or CAT5?

math scat

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'd strongly advise taking the 16GB package if you decide to go for it

Ginger

20:32

guess what

cmon, no takers?

Unrelated String

no

Ginger

ah well

Toasty Antifreeze is now publicly available!

have fun yall

I sincerely hope it doesn't immediately crash

math scat

aw it won't let me change my username tho

Ginger

odd

math scat

I get a 404 error

Ginger

20:36

I can try

what to?

math scat

nah it's fine, I was just experimenting with the interface.

Ginger

uh WHAT

I tried to edit your name myself and switched to your account?!

math scat

welp

Ginger

who needs name editing when you can have body snatching

oh, wait no

I just overwrote my account details with yours

Unrelated String

amazing

math scat

20:44

lmao

Ginger

time to do some DB editing ig

so I effectively deopped myself :/

Someone

21:07

oops

Ginger

and done

fixed the bug too

my mobile-fu is unmatched :p

ais523

21:37

@RydwolfPrograms I have a couple of comments about the readme you linked: a) it doesn't link to an interpreter nor give build instructions, so it's unclear how someone interested in the language should experiment with it; b) "the order in which these conflicting actions occur is left to the interpreter as undefined behavior" – did you mean unspecified behavior?

(the difference: with undefined behavior, doing that gives the interpreter license to do anything including something entirely unrelated, with unspecified behavior, it has to apply them in one order or the other but is allowed to pick which arbitrarily or randomly, and change its mind within a single execution if it wants to)

also, the hard part in a TCness proof is of course finding a way to create a program that is capable of indefinitely expanding a pattern that stores data, finding somewhere to store arbitrary amounts of data is the only reason it isn't trivially TC

lyxal

22:05

@Ginger me when 502 bad gateway when trying to add a room :p

Ginger

in The Sand Trap, 59 secs ago, by Ginger

I've shut down Toasty while I make some patches

Someone

so undefined behavior is like the final form of unspecified behavior?

ais523

undefined behaviour is weird and unintuitive – the implementation is allowed to do anything, regardless of whether it has any relationship to the original issue or any relationship to what the program or even interpreter is meant to do

Someone

which includes stealing your cookies, I assume

and then launching a missile at your house /j

ais523

it was originally intended for situations where a naive implementation would corrupt memory; the interpreter/compiled program has to be allowed to do anything because, say, an out-of-bounds write to an array might overwrite a return address on the stack and start interpreting some unrelated data as code

and this behaviour nonetheless is supposed to be defined as "correct"

Someone

22:14

oh

ais523

it is not surprising that programs writen in C, which has a lot of undefined behavour, commonly have a lot of major security issues because if the program accidentally contains undefined behaviour, often attackers can exploit the results

Someone

memory leaks go brrr

ais523

but some implementations have made use of undefined behaviour in other contexts, such as for optimisations (e.g. if one branch of an if statement has undefined behaviour, you can make it do anything, so you might as well optimise by making it do exactly the same thing as the other branch and skip evalutaing the test), which is something of an abuse

and yet modern C compilers do this sort of thing all the time

this is in theory a valid optimisation if programmers write their programs correctly, but in practice it is hard to be sure that you're writing the program correctly

and this is why I rarely write in C nowadays: I am fairly good at it and almost always get it right, but "almost always" isn't good enough and the occasional mistake (which does happen) can have catastrophic consequences

Someone

yeah…

memory leaks and undefined behavior, from what I've heard, are a constant struggle when it comes to C(++)

ais523

I have semi-recently been working on someone else's C++ code, and had a horrible-to-debug issue where the program would crash printing certain strings, with no apparent pattern

it turns out that two different files disagreed on how big a hash table was supposed to be, with the effect that you would get an occasional out-of-bounds access but only when the hash of the string was very near the end of the table

(for some reason it was using binary search on the hashes rather than just modulo-indexing into a table, meaning that most lookups worked just fine, because the difference in the sizes wasn't very large and thus most of the accesses were inbounds – a binary search typically works even when you have the size of the array wrong, unless you try to read beyond the end)

Rydwolf Programs

22:59

@ais523 It's a web-based interpreter, deployed to GitHub Pages (radvylf.github.com/trianguish). Will update the docs later (and also add a mode to the interpreter to run at max speed)

ais523

ah, I thought there'd be a link like that available – it just isn't in the README atm

I went and cloned the repo locally and have been running it that way

correct link seems to be radvylf.github.io/trianguish

another feature that would be useful would be the ability to hover an op to see which number it has

while the program isn't running

fwiw, Trianguish is a cellular automaton, and the techniques for programming it seem pretty similar to those for other 2D cellular automata (like Conway's Game of LIfe)

Rydwolf Programs

@ais523 Yeah, if I'm reading this right that's what I figured. With bigint cells I think it'd be pretty trivial, for example

ais523

I think it'd be pretty trivial too, you could likely do The Waterfall Model without much effort

oh, something else not mentioned in the docs is that buliding on an op causes that op to output NIL – I iniitally expected ops to work even while being built on (so, e.g., if you built a 2-wire over another 2-wire in the same orientation, it would continue to transmit data while you were doing that)

this is easy to work around but has caused me to rethink my plans somewhat

Someone

23:20

What's the waterfall model?

thejonymyster

@Someone Here is The Waterfall Model

crazy simple tc construction

if you stare at enough TC constructions it makes enough sense why it'd be TC but damn if it isnt a spectacle

Someone

Huh.

But the only thing that happens is that things fall to 0 and increase other things. How are input and output supposed to happen?

thejonymyster

TC-ness doesnt require i/o :P

Rydwolf Programs

23:37

@ais523 This might be a bug

ais523

@Someone T/C doesn't require I/O; there is an output extension, input has to be done by setting the initial values of the counters

Someone

…

okay, so why does BrainF have an output command?

thejonymyster

for practical reasons :-)

being T/C doesnt forbid I/O either

Someone

23:53

I mean, isn't the whole premise that it's a barebones TC language?

Why would it intentionally add an output command if it's unnecessary?

emanresu A

Because it's annoying to write programs without I/O

Someone

I guess that makes sense.

Trianguish TC

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