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12:00 AM
That makes it all the more ironic
1 hour later…
1:25 AM
there are currently two
bounties left to be awarded in the Best of 2021 doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TzSHOMiNoAT6zmrumlovvr3xjx46khcpd_TPbn0EYo4/edit. Would anyone like to award them?
Asking here, since the official room is frozen
1:35 AM
I'll take Trickiest Challenge, anyone who wants to can take the other one
I can't for obvious reasons
@emanresuA I'm happy to award the Most Involvement if you're okay to do Trickiest Challenge
Okay, any idea what they'd like it on?
They aren't pingable, so I generally go with their most recent answer, or the highest voted answer
1:58 AM
@RadvylfPrograms canvas is broken
Ah frick I wrote code without testing it
what was it?
I'm a fricking idiot
event.button instead of event.buttons
A small front-end change to fix firefox
2:44 AM
oh hey I've hit 21k
I'm fast approaching 17k myself
2:54 AM
I've been 26-27k for the last few months because bounties
3:09 AM
I'm considering (read: not committing to) writing a blog post on how to manage community esolang development/getting other people to collaborate with you
You seem to have managed to do that pretty effectively. Even just "tf do you do after you've made a language, how do yuo get people to use this thing" is a question a lot of people would like to have answered
Like, Flax, Ash, and how many other proto-golfing-languages are used or were going to be used by just one or two people
Vyxal's managed to break out of that, which is quite the accomplishment, so surely you've got some tricks
so managing community contributions + community expansion?
Yeah, something like that
@RadvylfPrograms uh... yeah... about that...
I, uh, kinda don't have solid tricks for promotion
it's mostly been do something and see if it works
and even then, some things have just been people expressing curiosity from seeing language usage
the thing about vyxal is even if only people who developed the language used it you already have like a solid 10 people using it lmao
3:14 AM
brb gonna go do some internal polling to see what made people join the project
If you send me your address and a 20-plus byte program written in catstruct I will mail you a cookie
community officially developed
flax hasn't been usable for long and didn't you just plain abandon ash
but yeah i think there have been other new golflangs that haven;t gone anywhere and i just can't remember them for obvious reasons :P
the other thing is vyxal is clearly intended to be approachable by newer users, which is literally part of the design philosophy (IIRC) lol
on the other hand jelly for example has a pretty heavy learning curve so it's not nearly as accessible
hell, there are some old ones like gs2 and pyke that were at some point used frequently but just kinda fizzled out without being clearly superseded like golfscript and co
and yeah vyxal's emphasis on not being too eso is definitely a nontrivial part of how it got popular but there's definitely something more to how people even noticed that
3:19 AM
I think lyxal's said a lot of it was just him using it constantly until people noticed it
yeah that's probably the biggest thing
Idk about y'all but whenever I finish an esolang my brain kinda goes "yup okay job done, next thing now" and I never really write much with it
writing answers consistently, explaining them, generally existing in the community
@RadvylfPrograms but that alone doesn't attract new users.
there's another factor
which I actually don't know
I'll get back to you on that
3:30 AM
When people respond to that discussion in Vyxal
Well, I should probably go to sleep, so you have 12 or so hours to figure out what made Vyxal take the lead as the most popular golflang for new users
or else
grabs most threating object nearby, which is unfortunately a desk lamp
@RadvylfPrograms Before you go could you unpin the add a lang to a polyglot message?
(If you're still awake)
3:53 AM
So, I've been trying to graph Vyxal answers over time... and some of them are dated June 2022.
I'm gonna leave it for now, but what I got was that Vyxal was most active not in May 2022, but in the months that followed, while the rewrite was ongoing.
From jun-sep 2021 we were getting 150-200 answers/month. It fell to 70 in October, and now we're getting more like 60/month, pretty consistently
Take all of this with a grain of salt because some of the answers are dated June 2022
Okay, never mind - it looks like I somehow accidentally shifted everything a bit
now i'm starting to wonder what the stats look like for other languages
There are two feb 2021s and for some reason a Jan 2020
lmao what
4:02 AM
And there is no Jan 2022 - I think one of the febs was that
Also there are some from 2017
I think I might've been a bit hasty in yeeting everything into Date
@emanresuA understandable
There's polyglots from then where people have edited vyxal in after the fact
and trivial answer cws maybe
Iirc there's only two
Oop there's 3
A: Print every character your program doesn't have

Johannes KuhnPolyglot, 95 #undef X;A!"$%&'()*+-[,.]/0123456789:<=>?@BCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWYZ\^_`abcghijklmopqrstvwxyz{|}~ Perl Perl 6 Any *nx-like shell (tclsh, bash, sh, ksh, etc) Awk (GNU / POSIX) Brainfuck, Brian & Chuck, other derivatives Ruby Coffescript Golfscript Python R Julia Whitespace rk Gaot++ b...

A: Add two numbers

DennisJelly, 1 byte + Try it online! Also works in 05AB1E, Actually, APL, Braingolf, ,,, (Commata), dc, Deorst, Factor, Forth, Implicit, J, Julia, K, kdb+, Keg, Ly, MathGolf, MATL, Pyke, Q, Swift, and Vyxal.

A: Multiply two numbers

FatalizeBrachylog V1, 05AB1E, J, K, Underload, MATL, Forth, PigeonScript, Stacked, Implicit, Jolf, Clojure, Braingolf, 8th, Common Lisp, Julia, Pyt, Appleseed, Stax, Reality, dc, Vyxal, Keg, Swift 1 byte * You may edit this answer to add other languages for which * is a valid answer.

4:39 AM
hmm i have an idea to combine husk, vyxal and jelly into a single language...
dont know if it will work ..
scratch that idea
5:04 AM
yeah functional
im just mocking your typos
1 hour later…
6:27 AM
@UnrelatedString gs2 and pyke are prime examples of overspecialised langs - they can do some stuff, but a lot of their capabilities are constants or similar that exist only to, say, print hello world with specific casing. Pyke's creator spent ages trying to prove it turing-complete, which is not a good thing.
laughs in other people proved my esolangs TC by creating a provably TC subset of Keg and consequently Vyxal
6:43 AM
You mean volatile?
7:19 AM
I do
TIL that scrolling up/down in the tab bar scrolls it horizontally
(at least in firefox, probably/maybe in others)
i think thats a specific firefox thing
because chrome never makes your tab bar scroll, it just keeps making your tabs smaller
7:54 AM
i think chrome stops shrinking your tabs after a certain point
haven't used it in a while but i think it starts scrolling once the tabs can only fit the favicon and exactly none of the title--a bit narrower than firefox pinned tabs iirc
@emanresuA wait have you just been using the buttons and/or some keyboard shortcut(s) this whole time
8:15 AM
been a while since ive used chrome but im like 90% certain it never makes your tabs scroll, it will just keep shrinking them, even to the point you cant see the favicon anymore
@UnrelatedString No, scrolling horizontally
but I didn't realise that vertically worked as well
sometimes i forget horizontal scrolling also works lol
my mouse only has left-neutral-right by tilting the scroll wheel and i barely use my laptop's touchpad so it's just slower/less control than vertical
8:42 AM
I only just realised that caird's hat is photoshopped
9:00 AM
@emanresuA lol you thought it was real?
never really looked at it :P
I just looked at some of my older code and I'm scared
@emanresuA of?
9:15 AM
I made a chat app, which:
- Was written in PHP
- Used MD5
- Chat transcripts were stored in public files
- Was vulnerable to SQL injection through the password field
- Was vulnerable to XSS through `?err=` on the login page
- Did client-side message validation
- was vulnerable to XSS through bypassing said validation
- You could impersonate anyone
- Certain input to the password field threw a stack trace which included the SQL database password
9:34 AM
The last few of which I discovered when I tried to use it recently and promptly got rickrolled. My friends are great.
9:50 AM
how do concat 2 arrays in JS?
(yes i am doing something in JS)
Is this for your flax thing?
@emanresuA how am i going to concat something only if a condition is specified?
(in a single line)
10:12 AM
@emanresuA it was for this
@hyper-neutrino indeed, visiting will usually qualify as a visit
@cairdcoinheringaahing Of my 7 questions, 2 actually have the same score of 11, so that's the mode, although it's actually also my worst question score
10:28 AM
try {
    return true;
} finally {
    return false;
2 hours later…
12:34 PM
So here's me and I'm going down the youtube recommendations rabbit hole as one usually does
I go down to the comments of a video I'm watching and who do I find?
First comment I see
There's no escaping Radvylf it seems
@lyxal were you watching ryan's-toy-something?
oh that ryan
hmm I can't see radvylf
aw dang gosh dang google targeted comment highlighting again
12:51 PM
@lyxal o_O
1:03 PM
CMC: Open a window. Message Boxes and similar Dialogue do not count, neither do windows implicitly opened by the language.
Why does this change between var or let result in different behaviour?
I know var is function-scoped, but why should that make a difference when the function is inside the loop?
@ATaco Python, 36 bytes
1:19 PM
@ATaco prototype sql-like language, 35 bytes: WITH MAKE DATABASE;AS D{VIEW OF D;} (this is just a concept)
ooooor wait
I just had a genius idea
@ATaco Python, 0 bytes: (assuming you've built the program using PyInstaller with default options from a .py file)
> neither do windows implicitly opened by the language
Python, 32 bytes
It's not! The window is opened by PyInstaller, which is not part of the language.
1:23 PM
There are tonnes of languages that defaultly open a window, and they're not particularly interesting solutions
> assuming you've built the program using PyInstaller with default options
@mathcat does that count?
by adding that assumption, you've essentially created a new language as a subset of python
@mathcat If so, then: Python, 18 bytes
beat THAT
What does it take to open a window in PyGame?
1:24 PM
@Ginger uff forgot that
haha, a clever answer
thanks randall!
there, I redeemed myself
@mathcat Python, 26 bytes: from turtle import*;done()
ooh right
turtle imports tkinter, right?
@mathcat someone's been spending too much time on discord :p
1:28 PM
@lyxal ?
Truttle1 is a youtuber who does esolang videos and has a discord server
sounds like a cool guy
has he ever been seen in TNB?
1:30 PM
you forgot sub_confirmation=1
@Ginger I don't think so
but I saw him use tio
2:11 PM
fun fact: MATL started off as a half-joke in a StackOverflow room
in CHATLAB and Talktave on Stack Overflow Chat, Sep 8, 2015 at 21:58, by rayryeng
Someone should write a translation of MATLAB / Octave that is meant for code golfing.
Also fun fact: Husk was originally called HOG (Higher Order Golf)
in Husk, Feb 6, 2017 at 8:08, by Zgarb
First off, name idea: Higher Order Golf, or HOG for short.
2:36 PM
@RadvylfPrograms here's what I have so far lol: gist.github.com/Lyxal/64b2ed82a273e530379d979d2e6ed3bd
at this stage, it's just about community engagement in the language creation process
community engagement post-launch is what I'll be adding next
because the pre-launch game is just as important as the post-launch game
also, that's just a bullet-point draft version of it too
th'ain't full paragraphs
2:58 PM
this is good data
I will be keeping it in mind
3:55 PM
@lyxal I don't even get the joke
How did this get nearly 1k likes
And why did 13 year old Radvylf write that
> 13
good wording lol
very smart
4:27 PM
She talks about golfing her code to fit on the Atari and how it made her a better programmer
3 hours later…
7:06 PM
@RadvylfPrograms "fix" firefox? (often the problem is that you did something non-standard and you need to do it the standard way)
Not my code, don't know if it was standard or not :p
But it didn't work so I was "fix"ing the code for firefox, whether it was our original code's fault or firefox's
@pxeger the function only captures the scope, not the value of i itself, so when using var they all reference the same i, while when using let (or more obviously const i of [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]) you get a newly scoped i on each pass of the loop.
Oh, so let i creates a new binding every time the loop runs
although I have to agree that it's weird for the regular loop, since you can increment i, even though there's a new binding for it
or, creates a binding that exists only inside the loop, so a new closure is created every iteration
7:18 PM
@pxeger well, stackoverflow.com/q/30899612 might explain it better
7:50 PM
@ATaco 38 bytes to open a window in pygame
PIL is 49 bytes, but does get bonus points for the window not being anything python; this opens your default program for opening image files
8:31 PM
@pxeger As I understand it, i is undefined outside its loop with let, but defined outside its loop with var
9:32 PM
@emanresuA i have no knowledge of js and took a shot at this and got 6/14 correct :P. better than luck at least!
I have a bad habit of using way too fancy words when writing things
I am writing up an explanation for my bitcycle lilypond program and i just used the word "henceforth"
@AidenChow I got 9 :P
@des54321 We all do that :P
10:00 PM
@AidenChow i only got 6 wrong somehow
Okay, time to do (half of) my calculus final exam
@emanresuA 8, but I never thought I was good at JS — or even knew JS.
10:22 PM
@emanresuA gl!
10:59 PM
Alright humans, I have a tricky challenge for you
I am making a library for communicating with a Wii Remote
The Wii Remote, as you know, has lots of features - so many that not all of their data can be sent at once
So, the remote has Report Modes: settings that determine what data is sent to the Wii, and allow games to not use features they don't need (to save bandwidth)
I want the library I'm writing to automagically figure out the most optimal Report Mode given a set of required peripherals, but I'm not sure how to make it do so
so, I'm letting yall have a stab at it! :p
You must write a Python function that takes in 4 arguments: whether to use buttons, whether to use the accelerometer, the amount of data needed from the IR camera, and the amount of data needed from the extension, and returns a ReportMode enum member corresponding to the Report Mode to use
If that particular combination is impossible, the function must raise an error
The function may return a report mode which sends more data then requested, but never less (and PLEASE don't cheat by always returning the maximum possible data mode)
The ReportMode enum is as follows:
class ReportMode(Enum):
  BUTTONS = 0x30
  EXTENSION21 = 0x3d
(You may notice I'm not including the interleaved mode. I decided that was too complex to use in the library right now)
A list of all Report Modes in more detail can be found here
now, get coding!
(if IR/extension data isn't needed, 0 will be passed)
11:40 PM
@AidenChow :| got a 83% and ran out of time
I thought half of it would be easy stuff (e.g. "derivative of x^2 + 3x") because that's what the practice was, but nah
A: What are five things you hate about your favorite language?

a paid nerdBrainF*ck Your highlight is that you're Turing complete?! I can do more in Perl regular expressions! Lack of objects. C'mon, people! It's like, hello... No networking libraries. All I want is to scrape a web page, GOSH. No first-class functions. Congratulations — you get to commiserate with you...


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