Same

I started with a WOLF/FLOW border and looked for O and L

Took me a while to think of WOLF/FLOW though

I used to do these sort of problems occasionally at scrabble club (yes that is a thing)

not with the palindrome requirement, but coming up with say 5x5 or 6x6 word squares that work similarly, or other interesting requirements

@pxeger The latter, although it takes me a second to realize it doesn't have to do with predators when it means pre-date

so if you just paste an image as your challenge then you are not responsible for clarity??

Lemme clean it up a bit, then lets see if I got it right :P

it'd be really nice if we had a feature that would let you fix up this challenge without any downvotes or closures

@cairdcoinheringaahing I asked, they said it was the opposite.

wait, why no new contributors lmao (just curious)

Same reason as a couple of existing deadline-less bounties: to prevent sockpuppet shenanigans.

Ah crap, forgot to check the button to submit for a review :/

ah that makes sense

(BTW, does anyone know offhand what the conditions are for someone to no longer be a New User?)

It's detailed on MSE, lemme go find it

your first post sets a 7 day countdown

within those 7 days, any posts you make get the indicator for 7 days

at least that's what i remember it as

> visible for a week following their first post

also in theory deleting all of your posts makes you a new contributor again, but i can't remember. i'll just wait for caird to find the post then :p

@cairdcoinheringaahing (source)

Ok, done some editing. Still waiting on OP's approval that I got it right, but should be much clearer now

someone ping me if/when this gets reopened to clean up the comments

i gotta go for now tho

o/

\o

Ah good, HN is leaving. Time for me to Jelly ninja this :P

I'm going to assume the OP's fine with your edits and vote to reopen

@BrowncatPrograms That's one of the things I love about languages--it's fascinating to try to figure out the connections.

"Vanity," noun: something worthless; excessive self-pride; a dressing table with one or more mirrors on top; a type of bathroom sink.

Words changing through time is fun too (e.g. "toilet")

@user Oh yes. One of my favorites is "silly"

@BrowncatPrograms I mean, they are basically the same thing. When your parents "gifted" you with life, they basically doomed you to suffering and eventually, death

@DLosc Wow, that's like a 170 degree change

And meanwhile the German equivalent selig still has basically the original meaning

Wonder what happened to make the meaning shift so much. It makes sense when you look at the meanings in between, but it still feels weird for it to go from something like happy to foolish

For those interested, I took the word list from YAWL and broke it down into individual files based on word length. I have them available on GitHub as text files.

I should post a deadlineless bounty for outgolfing the current shortest Hello, World!

20 bytes feels too long :/

Especially when JS is only 51 bytes

tried going for an alternative approach which turned out to be 23 :p

I started at 23, managed to golf away 3 bytes :P

I like that fact that "Given a binary matrix, determine if all 1s are supported" is 3 bytes (a\Ƒ)

(Technically 4 if going by supported rather than upside down supported :P)

And, due to my edits, I'm 0.2% closer to the Illuminator badge :P

i am wondering if anyone will ever find the easter eggs i put in my JHT site's search tool

i don't even remember how many there are :p

Do you have a link to the site? I'm bored, might as well go look for some

And, are they Jelly specific easter eggs, or just any random easter egg?

jht.hyper-neutrino.xyz/search and i think the easter eggs are just like, you can search with a totally unrelated keyword and it'll show a search result

the thing is i doubt you can really find them by trying to find them without going through the source code, in fact i know at least one of them is too obscure for anyone to reasonably get it by accident :p (or at least i think; i'd be surprised what sorts of things people can somehow come across or discover)

That's a fancy search function :P

yeah i made it slightly excessive :p i haven't used the tag filter / type filter thing really

anyway i give up trying to outgolf you i tried yet another approach and it's already longer than your solution just to store the data so... :p

@hyper-neutrino ಠ_ಠ Can't find anything obvious going through search.js (either that, or my JS is rustier than I thought :P)

heh, you'd need to dig through the data source json files

@cairdcoinheringaahing :(

twice already (<-- this is a hint)

hm, took a cursory glance at some of the data files and i couldn't find any; maybe i didn't put in as many as i recall?

> 3597 lines (3597 sloc)

...just on atoms.json

besides copy-pasting the template i filled in most of the explanations and keywords entirely by hand

That's dedication :P

@hyper-neutrino ...Why? Jelly's Wiki has perfectly good ones, right?

@hyper-neutrino Is one of the easter eggs related to you accidentally deleting a 5000 line JSON file?

@user Jelly's Wiki has really brief and vague descriptions

Ah

@BrowncatPrograms nah that was for an unrelated discord bot :p

Like, really vague in some places

like, we had to dig through the source code to understand how some of them worked

Dennis works in mysterious ways...

I think the descriptions of some actually held me back a bit from understanding how they work. Namely: Ṭ, y, z, ḥ (still don't understand this one), ÆẸ, Æṭ (before I did any lin-alg), æ%, æi (guess this makes sense if you're familiar with mod arithmatic), ", ƙ, ÐḶ

I only understood ÐḶ after seeing Dennis use it and then spend a paragraph explaining it. Docs are still useless for that one for me :P

Plus there are a few atoms I still don't understand at all :P

@user It's like ~30% of reviews on all shows are "OMG This show is so amazing I watch all 11 seasons twice daily", ~30% are "This show does not fit in with my expectations of <genre> so 1 star", ~20% are "There are some good and bad things about this show <list of valid pros and cons>, you may or may not like it", ~15% are "this show bad because bad", ~3% are "This show is bad for children because it had blood/language", ~2% are "I hate all this diversity", and then you have people like this

i, too, think it is bad for children to be exposed to language

@cairdcoinheringaahing my goal with the jelly compendium was to make things understandable the way i wished the docs were when i was learning so if you think any of my explanations for things are insufficient, bad, or wrong, feel free to bug me to make them better :p

Do I remember correctly that one of the CG regulars is the person who manages TIO?

He isn't a regular anymore, unfortunately

> I'm bileding

wtf

No, it's just "blleding"

I hit l twice instead of e but figured it'd be funnier if I left it like that

And don't ask why the three critics and one of the actors are all clones except one is blue

That'll be explained in part two

lol

Oh, are the four at the top supposed to actors that are part of the show?

@Catija Kind of. Dennis (former mod, top rep earner etc.) developed TIO, and was (almost entirely) responsible for updating it with new languages / language updates. Unfortunately, starting late 2019, he started struggling severely with his mental health, which has lead him to be all but inactive since then

As a result, no new developments have been made to TIO in over 2 years

@DLosc Obviously, only the third option can be valid. All others are contradictions and therefore invalid

@cairdcoinheringaahing Minor bugs have been fixed, though, rigt?

@user Yep

@Catija Do you mind me asking why you ask? I'm kind of familiar with TIO and how it works and can try to help if needed

@user Yep. Biggest things were some bugs with it not connecting to the servers and the Mathematica license expiring

@cairdcoinheringaahing oh, that's so sad. I hope things are improving for him. 💚

@cairdcoinheringaahing I am trying to understand tools that sites rely on to help understand what keeps them ticking. Y'all rely so heavily on TIO, I'd want to be certain that it will have forward support if possible. So understanding the current status and who's managing it is an important element.

Is it OS?

Yep, github.com/TryItOnline

Lots of us are developing our own TIO-like sites, too

That org actually contains, I believe, all the information required for someone to set up their own version

Plus ^^

^^^ Although none have yet collected as many languages as TIO, nor are they as widely used :/

Having alternate options is good but won't necessarily keep the links here from breaking, right?

no, if TIO itself goes down, all of the links will be broken and it'll be... rather catastrophic

That's my concern.

That actually reminds me, I've been meaning to set up an annual payment to help with the server costs

@hyper-neutrino But someone would be able to make a bot to fix that, right? Because the links can be decoded to get the header, code, etc.

Yeah, but there's probably upwards of 100k of those links

That's a lot of edits

True, our front page would be a mess

From what I know, I think that, so long as Dennis has the funds, he'll be able to keep TIO up, baring any catastrophic errors that would arise from ...nothing happening?? idk

It leaves me wondering whether it's something we should find a way to support or take on hosting it. Obviously I don't have any control and I can't make promises but... I don't want y'all in a bad spot.

I think Dyalog is funding it too?

yes

Do you know what the cost of hosting is?

Granted, that was 3 years ago, but I doubt much has changed

digitalocean.com/pricing

I feel like there was some discussion a while back about getting people on SO using it but there was concerns about the huge increase in traffic.

Seems to have increased a bit since then if $500 almost covers that

@Catija There's this:

(referring to buying an SO ad, the full discussion's in that transcript)

This would have been more recently. I didn't work here then.

You know the Community ads on SO are specifically for OS projects, right?

I didn't. But I'm not too happy putting up an ad for TIO on SO "unilaterally" in case the traffic does overwhelm it

Sure. The ads are more for getting people to help build the project than use it, regardless.

Well, TIO does need help being updated, but idk if anyone other Dennis can do that

I know that Dyalog is promoting it as a good interpreter for APL (source), but I can't find anything about traffic issues for SO

Does anyone else have the credentials to his DigitalOcean account or smth?

If he holds the only admin rights, yeah.

Doesn't help that "SO" is a difficult term to easily search for :P

that'd be even more unfeasible then; to have people work on TIO would require setting up the entire project again and keeping it updated since the current copy of TIO must be updated by dennis and AFAIK nobody else can do it

@user I believe Andrew has write access to the org, but he's also inactive

Pavel as well, also relatively inactive

:/

@cairdcoinheringaahing Well, not so much any more, since we can't update the version there :-(

Plus, I'd be shocked if he was ok with taking over TIO

I think trying to slowly get the community to migrate to newer sites might be a good option (can't say whether it'd be the best)

@Adám Yeah, the biggest issue :(

To be clear, I'm not encouraging a takeover but I am concerned about it being supported.

Someone with their own server could set up their own TIO clone using github.com/TryItOnline/tiosetup, though, right?

Yes

If I had the time/money, I'd do it in a heartbeat

@cairdcoinheringaahing We can provide the money, but not the time.

If there's an alternative that is identical and the urls match, we can bulk edit the urls to another domain.

@Catija Exactly. That's what I think stands the best chance of succeeding.

RTO's planned to have support for TIO URLs, not sure about the others

But it'd be easily possible I'd imagine

So another TIO instance isn't the only option

Are you temporarily just copying TIO code for RTO?

No, AviFS and I built a TIO link parser

The worst case scenario I could see would be for tio.run/tryitonline.net to go down. If that ever happened, someone having a copy ready wo could buy the domains and set it up again would be the ideal situation

You'd have to support the full language list, though. So if that's a blocker on some, then the links would resolve but you couldn't actually run the code.

@Catija Even if the URLs don't match, someone could make an extra site with the same structure that just redirects to the right URL

As I said, it appears as though Dennis is well enough to quietly fix fatal issues that have arisen since he want inactive, so that seems to be the main potential problem

@Catija The setup would support the full list

@Catija I think there are only two proprietary languages on TIO, Mathematica and Dyalog APL. The latter is obviously not a problem.

@Catija Just most of the languages would be okay for a start too, since many of those languages aren't used too often

@user sure. Our tool can't do regex but if it's a simple find/replace, it's easy enough for a dev to change.

One issue I could see with someone running a copy would be, if they updated the languages/added new ones, then Dennis came back

@cairdcoinheringaahing Dennis would make the same changes.

It'd be a big effort/cleanup to resolve the two instances, which is another reason I'm hesitant about putting in the effort to start a copy

Since there aren't any changes being made on the original TIO, a fork could probably be merged back in, right?

@Adám we have connections at Mathematica, since we have a site... I'd hope we could figure that out, too.

@Adám In all likelihood, yeah, probably. I just imagine the worst case scenarios in stuff like this :P

I figure that if I can solve the worst case scenario, I can handle any outcome :P

:-D

Something that might be worth exploring is TIO's API

?

It's very rudimentary, but if SE was interested in looking into a more dedicated support for TIO on the site, that seems like the first step

It's entirely useable tho, just, ...outdated? hacky?

I have a TIO interface in APL. Wasn't hard at all. And "That Alternative" to Stack Exchange has fully integrated TIO support, so it clearly is doable.

Wait, really?

Oh, you mean TA

That Alternative :-)

I know that Japt and Vyxal (both of which have 1000+ answers) mostly don't use TIO in answers

@lyxal If Vyxal was on TIO, would you still use the pythonanywhere interpreter?

@cairdcoinheringaahing This is part of why I think trying to migrate to a newer online interpreter instead of trying to support TIO forever is a better option

Eventually, the lack of updates will start to become a problem as new languages are developed

@cairdcoinheringaahing I can't speak for others, but the Japt interpreter has a pretty nice UI and useful tools, so I'd use it even if Japt had great support on TIO

@cairdcoinheringaahing probably for answers where I wanted offline behaviour online

@cairdcoinheringaahing I really don't know what's possible for us or what Dennis would be comfortable with, but we do have OS elements of our code base... so theoretically we could talk to Dennis about buying the domain and taking on hosting to remove the costs and y'all can still have control of improvements to it... but I don't know if that'd be seen as good or bad.

Created a new repo for that breakdown of YAWL. It's now a full C# project with hard coded collections for words based on length (to improve performance). I'm working on making it a NuGet package for ease of access, but not as worried about that tonight.

@user Mildly related smbc: smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-09-26

the thing is on one hand, i want to take the burden of TIO off of dennis 1. so it can be updated but more importantly so he doesn't have to worry about it, but i also don't want to imply that we think he's incapable of it or that we don't think he'll come back, and he did mention that moderating CGCC (before the incident, at least) and i think maintaining TIO were things he really enjoyed and helped him with his mental health

I can't agree more, that's (ignoring my own time/money constraints) my thinking as well

accepting that you can't do something right now doesn't mean you'll never be able to do it again

but I do see where you're coming from

Yeah. That's what I'm seeing, too. It's balancing taking the weight off without taking the good things away.

@rak1507 No, but it can feel that way, especially if your mental health isn't exactly the best

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yeah fair enough

Dammit, normally, I'm good with you're vs your :/

Your not so good today evidently :P

I blame the fact that it's 1am :P