The Nineteenth Byte

lyxal

1:00 PM

@StackMeter nah that's probably me

user

@lyxal java.util.Arrays.stream(arr)

lyxal

I'll probably end up switching to some sort of for loop anyway because empty objects

hyper-neutrino

you can use Stream::filter to get rid of them

user

@lyxal Arrays.stream(doctors).map(Doctor::getName).toArray(String[]::new) may be nicer

Wheat Wizard

idk that's still Java.

user

1:02 PM

lol

hyper-neutrino

oh yeah i forgot about that

user

doctors.map(_.name) if you're using Scala

lyxal

Funny thing is that it's way too late to be javaing right now

user

Yeah, like a decade too late :P

lyxal

Try telling that to my university

Making first year students do Java because oop

user

1:05 PM

I hate that everyone hates OOP because it's so overdone :(

Wheat Wizard

I don't really hate OOP. It's just noone really does OOP, they do this sort of half remembered OOP which is awful.

hyper-neutrino

tacit > everything else

Wheat Wizard

I do hate Java though.

user

:( It's really not a bad language, just really boilerplatey

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino stack based > tacit ⌍p

Wheat Wizard

1:07 PM

No Java really is a bad language.

hyper-neutrino

i don't really have an opinion on oop but ^^^^ (have to use it though lol)

lyxal

You can use ^ instead, golfing your message by 3 bytes

hyper-neutrino

@lyxal i like tacit better i just made yuno stack based to minimize the chance of me messing up the implementation and also because it's easier

Wheat Wizard

null is a commonly cited issue, which is big. But also Java's almost strong typing is an absolute mess.

hyper-neutrino

one thing i hate is how Arrays.asList turns a String[] into a List<String> but int[] into List<int[]>

Unrelated String

1:10 PM

...

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Implement a function \$f\$ (as a function or complete program), such that \$ \displaystyle\lim_{n\rightarrow \infty} f(n) \$ Is not a computable number. Answers will be scored in bytes with fewer bytes being better. IO formats Your answer may be in any of the following formats A program or funct...

Unrelated String

what does it even do to produce a List<int[]>

does it wrap the array in a one-element list

Wezl

o/

Unrelated String

or does it wrap each element of the list as a one-element array

user

@hyper-neutrino Yeah, Java's varargs are weird

rak1507

1:11 PM

@WheatWizard are you ever going to make a challenge that doesn't require 400 IQ and a phd to understand? :D

Wezl

just a bit late today for redwolf's leaving :)

user

@hyper-neutrino The thing is that asList takes ...T, and String[] can be turned into ...String, but int[] can't be turned into ...int because int isn't a subclass of Object. Since int[] is an Object, it interprets that as ...int[]

Wheat Wizard

@rak1507 Legend has it I already have.

rak1507

Not convinced

Unrelated String

@user so if you had boxed Integers instead, it would work as intended

user

1:14 PM

Yeah

Unrelated String

or is it just Int

totally forgot

user

I don't like that a T[] can be used as varargs directly instead of using something like * or ... to explicitly indicate that it's not a single argument

@UnrelatedString No you were right before

Unrelated String

how did people decide to teach java in schools instead of something sensible like uhhh

user

Scala

ducks

Unrelated String

lol

user

1:16 PM

Well, lots of people teach using Python, but Java is considered an enterprise language and so is useful to learn, i guess

hyper-neutrino

@user mhm. i know why it works that way but why can't generics use primitives or why can't it autocast lol

Wheat Wizard

Java had an enormous brand name back in the day.

Unrelated String

it's hard to think of a truly sensible language that's also oop-pilled enough for that crowd

user

@hyper-neutrino Project Valhalla is working on that

hyper-neutrino

especially since you can't cast arrays

user

1:16 PM

@hyper-neutrino Yeah, that sucks too

Unrelated String

just teach haskell in math classes

Razetime

@UnrelatedString there is ruby

user

@UnrelatedString Or APL

Unrelated String

true

user

Or some heavenly mix of Haskell and APL

Unrelated String

1:17 PM

to apl not ruby

rak1507

haskell would be a great language to teach

Wezl

pushes a load of other languages into the mix

user

@UnrelatedString *cough*

Wezl

@user github.com/Bubbler-4/APLambda ?

Razetime

@Wezl woah i thought this was archived

user

1:18 PM

@Wezl That looks really interesting

Wheat Wizard

I think Kotlin is a viable alternative to Java. It is not nearly as awful and pretty flexible as a language.

Unrelated String

i do not know much about ruby but i don't think it places extreme enough emphasis on inheritance and encapsulation and whatever the other words are that computer science education thinks are of some profound importance

user

^ (To WheatWizard)

Unrelated String

yeah kotlin seems nice

user

I also like that Kotlin discourages overuse of inheritance by making stuff final by default

Unrelated String

1:20 PM

ooh

Wheat Wizard

But I also think that the functional approach of Haskell is intuitive making it a good entry point into computer programming.

user

Makes it easy to avoid mutability while still staying close to Java

@WheatWizard "intuitive" :P

rak1507

the only thing people find confusing about haskell is IO which is just because it's different and taught badly

Wezl

first class functions and the point of monads are not that intuitive

user

I've been trying to learn Haskell for a couple months and still haven't the faintest idea how monads or even functors work

Wheat Wizard

1:21 PM

I think Haskell is confusing mostly to people who already have an idea of what programming is. Haskell rebuffs that assumption.

user

@Wezl Yeah, a beginner programmer might be better off with, say, Python

rak1507

@Wezl first class functions are perfectly intuitive, a function takes another function! easy

Unrelated String

there's a certain extent to which the more imperative something is the more intuitive it is to someone with no experience whatsoever but the more things you're doing imperatively the harder it is to actually reason about them

rak1507

I would say imperative things aren't necessarily intuitive to people with no experience

Wezl

@user groans aggressively

rak1507

1:22 PM

everyone just thinks they are because that's the assumption everyone has made

user

@rak1507 I'd say most non-programmers and non-mathematicians don't really have a great understanding of functions (at least, I didn't)

Unrelated String

functional would be more intuitive to someone with experience in mathematics and nothing else

user

^

@Wezl grins sadistically

Wheat Wizard

Most people have very little memory of how hard it was to learn programming, so when they have to learn everything a new way in Haskell, without being able to rely on their existing knowledge it seems really hard, when it really is no harder than any thing they have been working with.

rak1507

you don't need maths experience:
a function is a thing that takes inputs and outputs something as a result
you can feed functions into other functions
ez

Unrelated String

1:23 PM

and you would certainly hope that students in schools are comfortable with mathematical ideas

Wheat Wizard

Yeah, and a monad is a monoid on the category of endofunctors.

Razetime

python probably the safest language to teach tbh

Wheat Wizard

ez pz

Unrelated String

nothing esoteric about that no sir

rak1507

lol

user

1:24 PM

@rak1507 Lol I didn't even understand normal functions (i.e., functions taking values as input) at first, teaching me higher-order functions would've driven me crazy

Wheat Wizard

I really disaggree that python is a good idea to teach.

Unrelated String

oh yeah aren't haskell monads not quite actual category theoretical monads because of bottom being bottom

rak1507

@user you were probably taught it badly

Wezl

befunge is a very intuitive language

user

@rak1507 You dare disrespect Khan Academy? :P

@Wezl ...

Unrelated String

1:24 PM

yeah as pseudocodey as python is it's super involved if you look past that

Wheat Wizard

@UnrelatedString Nothing in Haskell is really Category theoretic pure, since Hask is not a category.

Program in Agda instead.

Unrelated String

that too

rak1507

I have some vague recollection of function-esque flow diagrams in early on maths, that translates to (pure) functions easily

Wheat Wizard

All programs must halt!

user

Wait what

I thought Agda was Turing complete (or can you be TC while also always halting?)

Wheat Wizard

1:25 PM

Agda is not TC.

Unrelated String

you could teach a total beginner how to do some things in python
but it's a lot harder to actually teach them python

user

Oh

Wezl

@Wezl and whlplash will be a (successful) attempt to make it modern enough to be taught in schools everywhere!

Unrelated String

and if you give them that surface level knowledge then everything else is just deep magic instead of something they can reason about

user

@UnrelatedString Right, but Python should only be a tool for teaching the very basics. It's pretty easy to teach - I made a small tutorial with no difficulty

rak1507

1:26 PM

@Wezl GH not codeberg?

user

For intermediate-level stuff, a different language would be better

Razetime

in the end nothing shall beat basic

user

BURN THE WITCH!

Razetime

i wonder if there's any BASIC that has regex

Wezl

@rak1507 only for collaboration purposes

Wheat Wizard

1:27 PM

Having been a CS tutor for classes taught in Python, and Haskell. I can say that I did not see a significant difference in the difficulty students had with either language. Learning to program is hard.

rak1507

@Wezl fair enough

Unrelated String

interesting

user

@WheatWizard Were they already experienced in programming, or were they new to it?

Razetime

BASIC is the best no cap

user

Someone kick Razetime :P

Redwolf Programs

1:28 PM

Morning everyone!

Wezl

o/

Unrelated String

~~logically, everyone should start with prolog~~

Wezl

prolog's not that unintuitive

user

@UnrelatedString true

Wheat Wizard

@user Mostly new to it. Different students had different levels of experience, but mostly new to it.

rak1507

1:28 PM

prolog's ok but there are a few things that would be confusing

Wheat Wizard

Prolog's types are awful.

user

@WheatWizard That's interesting

Razetime

@Wezl SQL is more intuitive than prolog imo

but prolog is indeed very cool

Wezl

I went into prolog wondering how you use anything that's not a boolean, but that was just a bad assumption from prior experience with other languages

Unrelated String

i feel like sql has a hell of a lot more weird shit to worry about than prolog

where prolog at its core is just

predicates

user

1:30 PM

One weird thing about Prolog is how there's predicates that have effects (write and friends)

Unrelated String

yeah

Wheat Wizard

Cuts are also pretty hard to get.

Wezl

I've had mixed success showing prolog to non-programmers (better than other languages, though maybe I just tried harder)

Wheat Wizard

They require understanding how Prolog resolves predicates.

Unrelated String

i still don't know what soft cuts do

Wezl

1:30 PM

@WheatWizard but they're not necessary

rak1507

I feel like prolog requires more understanding of the underlying implementation than other high level languages

which is bad for new programmers

user

@rak1507 <

Razetime

@UnrelatedString sepaking of predicates I am a bit confused on how to approach the abecedarian question in brachylog

rak1507

<?

user

^, but for your message, so sideways

rak1507

1:31 PM

oh

Unrelated String

@Razetime i'd say let's take this to the brachylog room if it wasn't frozen

uhh

user

@rak1507 My genius scares me sometimes

Unrelated String

i already forgot what that challenge's spec is

Razetime

@UnrelatedString lool

Wheat Wizard

You want me to unfreeze the room?

Redwolf Programs

1:32 PM

Nothing is more bad than SQL, we can take comfort in that fact

Unrelated String

it's filter a list to words that contain only alphabetical characters and are sorted case insensitive right

nah

Wheat Wizard

Have you heard of Javascript?

Wezl

@RedwolfPrograms s/SQL/python/# ftfy :)

Razetime

@WheatWizard nah we'll use prolog room

Unrelated String

it would not remain unfrozen for long lmao

user

1:33 PM

@Wezl You know you're being irrational when you despise Python more than SQL

:P

Wezl

I haven't tried SQL

StackMeter

s/SQL/SQL sucks

Redwolf Programs

Python is bad but at least it's somewhat similar to other languages so you can sort of understand pretty much any Python code

user

@Wezl Good, stay pure

@RedwolfPrograms What's so bad about Python (aside from signifcant whitespace)

Redwolf Programs

Ehh, it's just weird

hyper-neutrino

1:34 PM

SQL is a beautiful language. The lack of case sensitivity has to be my favorite part about it - you can truly express how you're feeling with the language. If I'm angry, I can shout. If I'm calm, I can talk normally or even whisper. It's almost like a form of art.

6

StackMeter

run that regex

and enjoy recursion

user

@hyper-neutrino sElEcT

hyper-neutrino

that too

Wheat Wizard

This may not be the most rational opinion since I am currently writing python code for work. But I prefer SQL over Python. Python is an abomination on this earth.

Wezl

@user no TCO, horrible inconsistency, tuples, bloated, hype, slow

hyper-neutrino

1:36 PM

I like everything about Python except the Python part

Redwolf Programs

@WheatWizard SQL is much more of an abomination

StackMeter

Python is crisp, clean, and versatile

Redwolf Programs

INNER JOIN is directly wired into my brain's pain receptors

user

@Wezl It's not used for stuff where performance is important anyway, and I don't see the problem with tuples

Wheat Wizard

@user TYPES! It's type system is extremely poor. It makes undebuggable messes almost guarenteed.

hyper-neutrino

1:37 PM

duck typing ftw

StackMeter

Then you have SQL which can do no more than edit arrays

Wezl

@user they're useless but still included, which is grounds enough for evisceration

user

@WheatWizard Meh, way better than JS :P

StackMeter

It's hardly even a programming language

user

@Wezl I don't see how they're useless. You could use lists, but those are mutable

rak1507

1:38 PM

python is only bearable if you enforce good type standards on yourself

Redwolf Programs

SQL is turing complete I think but nobody will ever understand enough to prove it

hyper-neutrino

@Wezl how are they useless tho

Wheat Wizard

I have nightmares that there is an easily avoidable type error hiding on some yet unexecuted line of python code that will cause a severe outage when encountered.

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms u C

It's not even TC

rak1507

you can easily go 'oooh what if I made this function take a list and an int?' and once you go down that path there's no return

StackMeter

1:38 PM

that's too much for me

Wezl

@hyper-neutrino you can use lists

Wheat Wizard

@user Yes, but that's not a very high bar to cross.

hyper-neutrino

yeah but those are mutable

user

@rak1507 There's a union type

StackMeter

@rak1507 it's easy

just use a for loop

and then you can do what you like with the list, int or lint

rak1507

1:39 PM

the point is it's very easy to end up in a situation where you have lots of different types floating around

Redwolf Programs

I don't understand why some of python's stuff like "".join is like a method and some like len are like a function

user

Fair enough, but that's a problem with any dynamically typed language

Redwolf Programs

Go full JS or go home

Wheat Wizard

@rak1507 The problem is that nothing is checked at compile time. So a silly mistake can make it all the way to production. Simple errors at the level of types should not make it past compilation.

user

I think I'll go homr

rak1507

1:40 PM

@user yes, which is why they're all bad

StackMeter

@rak1507 this is a problem in every language

Wezl

@RedwolfPrograms <

user

@rak1507 You're a traitor to APL :P

@StackMeter Not really, no

rak1507

@StackMeter no it isn't

StackMeter

every language have stupid types that are confusing

rak1507

1:40 PM

no, they don't

user

Some languages can be quite safe if they compile

@StackMeter Nah, just look at brainf*ck

StackMeter

Python's just a scapegoat here

Redwolf Programs

Python's not a scapegoat it's pure evil I tell you

StackMeter

@user every mainstream language

user

@RedwolfPrograms Says the JS worshipper

2

StackMeter

1:41 PM

@user ikr

Wheat Wizard

Python is like the most popular programing language in the world. I think it is fine to pick on its flaws.

user

@StackMeter Nah, just look at brainf*ck :P

StackMeter

@user bf is not mainstream

hyper-neutrino

i like python's simplicity but pretty much everything else about it is at best strange

user

@StackMeter But really, there's Haskell, Scala, Rust, and loads of great languages

Redwolf Programs

1:41 PM

JS is good in some ways and bad in others, but mostly good once you use it long enough you forget how to feel pain

user

@StackMeter I was kidding

Wezl

python < ruby <= js < smalltalk < lisp < scheme < what I'm about to make next week

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms lol

@Wezl s/</>

Razetime

@Wezl excuse me why is ruby there

user

@RedwolfPrograms Yeah, you also forget how to feel happiness

@Razetime Dynamic, and whitespace

hyper-neutrino

1:42 PM

@user we don't do that here

Redwolf Programs

JS pain is different from SQL pain...JS pain is sharp but quickly subsides, SQL pain is like a boulder on your arm and you have to either keep feeling pain or cut off the affected part and ask someone for help

Razetime

@user whitespace?

Wezl

@StackMeter sed: -e expression #1, char 5: unterminated `s' command

user

@hyper-neutrino Do what, feel happiness?

@Razetime It can use newlines instead of semicolons, right? Wezl thinks that's a bad thing

hyper-neutrino

@RedwolfPrograms python is like having a genetic disease that is fine now but 5 years later randomly kills you because you accidentally passed the wrong type into something except because of duck typing it was never noticed

Razetime

1:43 PM

oh ok

hyper-neutrino

@user yes

user

@hyper-neutrino You really need a therapist

Razetime

yeah semicolons are optional so on and so forth

Redwolf Programs

Walks like an int, quacks like an int, must be a duck

StackMeter

@Wezl oops gotta make it s/</>/#

though SQL does like nothing

user

1:44 PM

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's either a duck or a Proxy pretending to be a duck

StackMeter

Python ain't perfect, but it's sure better than SQL, that "programming language"

Redwolf Programs

Doesn't walk or quack, must be an object

user

@StackMeter Not very high standards :P (although this is comparing apples to oranges)

Wheat Wizard

The problem with python is that if you program in it long enough its flaws just sink in the the background and you start think Python is good. But if you program in a language that is actually good each little flaw sticks out like a sore thumb and you keep wishing for something better, something with more power and elegance. Then one day you snap back to realize you are using a theorem prover to grep for files.

10

StackMeter

@user It's not, but my languages gotta be TC

Wezl

1:47 PM

@ROs want to make a different room to shove this stuff?

Redwolf Programs

If SQL were TC that's one step closer to self aware and if SQL is released upon the world we have no hope

StackMeter

@WheatWizard yes, but if you program in C++ or Java (or even Javascript), have fun forgetting keywords like your keys when you go to work

Redwolf Programs

@Wezl It's relevant enough to CGCC IMO

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