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12:00 AM
(Risky manages to overload over 100 operations into four bits, and if you had four data types instead of two that'd be closer to 800, or 6-700 when you remove duplicates you might need)
 
Wait, how does padding work? I assumed there were always three bits at the start telling you how many bits of padding there was, followed by 0-7 bits of padding, and then the actual program
 
No, you just add a no-op to the start
 
What do you do with a 3 character program like 0000 0000 0000?
Oh
Wonder what a 6-bit encoding would look like. Definitely a lot harder to get to a multiple of 8 than 4, but not as bad as 5
 
You'd just parse from the right, and pad a partial operator with 0s
Then you make the more important operators start with more 0s
 
I have no idea what that would look like, would it be significantly more inefficient?
 
12:06 AM
But having 6 bit operators would be pretty suboptimal with Risky's parsing
 
Ah
 
The whole point of it is that you can triple the number of uses per operator, so the much less efficient parsing is (theoretically) made up for by the smaller code page
It'll never be able to compete with full 8-bit code pages though, for the simple reason that that gives you 256 useful operations per byte, whereas Risky gives you 256, of which a fair number are unlikely to be useful (since you need those 16 to be pretty general, so you end up with combinations like "length of reversed" which are totally pointless)
 
12:23 AM
I once tried eliminating certain meaningless combinations from Godel encoding of program trees, but they turned out to be pretty much negligible
So you'd better keep things simple and embrace generally useful functions
 
1:02 AM
@DLosc Why is that not just "pair length and reverse"?
 
1:15 AM
because length is num and reverse is string I guess
 
CMP: Golflang/esolang with coolest/most interesting encoding?
 
@Bubbler Risky has no string type
So DLosc's just converting the number into ASCII from what I can tell
But putting the reversed string and the length of the reversed string into an array would be four bytes
Three if it had better I/O
 
@user My (very WIP) untyped lambda calculus interpreter, which will include a Godel encoding of ULC programs encoded into bijective base 256
 
@Bubbler I'm not just talking about meaningless combinations though, there's also lots of really uncommon ones. Whereas with an 8-bit or larger code page, you can make the individual operations slightly longer, but add lots of other useful operators, which would be shorter than the weird combinations
Like "list of permutations reversed" or "square of the sum of a list"
Which aren't entirely impossible things to want, but being able to make those 16b (two 8-bit operators) and add lots of actually common 8b ones is definitely preferable
 
1:36 AM
If "perms" and "reverse" are both 1B, it's extremely hard to actively force their combination to longer than 2B (i.e. make it impossible to simply combine the two) without sacrificing your language's usability
 
Yep
I'm not saying that's a good idea
I'm saying that you'll get much more of that effect with 4 bit operators compared to 8 bit ones
 
"that effect" = "having lots of weird combinations"?
 
No, the effect where you lose the effective operations per byte
With 8-bit operators you're guaranteed 256 useful operations in a byte, whereas with 4-bit ones you still have 256 possibilities, but you get that canceling effect in more places
 
Kinda true
 
Since you also get the same sort of cancelation with 4-bit ones, since you could treat every group of two 4-bit operators as a group of two 8-bit ones
So even when you do have a program made up of useful combinations of 4-bit operators, you also have to worry about them making useless combinations on multiple levels
 
1:45 AM
Honestly to me, a much more severe problem is that x+y=y+x and (x+y)+z=x+(y+z) and so on
+ is simply unavoidable, but by having it you get more than half of your programs containing + wasted
 
2:09 AM
Fun fact: the SE app hasn't heard that we've unpinned the accepted answer, so it still stays at the top when browsing answers on the app :P
 
lol
Why do you have the app still installed in the first place :P
 
2:26 AM
Notifications
And HNQ, I guess
 
But mostly the notifications
 
Of course, those don't even work 100% of the time ;P
 
That's the only reason I have a copy of the SE apk in my google drive
 
If you get notifications for edits to your posts, or because of expiring bounties, it doesn't send a notification through, but if you open the app, it shows the red (1) thing, and if you then click on the inbox, there's nothing new there ಠ_ಠ
Tbf tho, actually interacting with the app is almost always awful. Comments are the worst
 
Ikr
 
2:33 AM
SE: The only platform where "comments are the worst" means "comments are difficult to use" rather than "comments are always rude and poorly informed" :p
Mobile SE, that is
 
I can't paste text into comments, everything has to be typed by hand. TIO links, because they're https://tio.run/##... are changed to https://tio.run/%23%23... which breaks them and it redirects to https://tio.run. When you leave a comment, the entire app screen goes white, and you have to close the app and reopen it to fix it
 
Simple solution: just don't leave comments /s
 
Tbf, I almost always only comment when reviewing nowadays
 
 
2 hours later…
4:09 AM
thank you, SE
@user Also "SatansSon" on github
3 mins ago, by emanresu A
thank you, SE
 
5:02 AM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

emanresu ARepeated Stalin Sort Stalin sort is a "sorting" algorithm where you declare that the list is sorted and remove elements not in order. It's not a proper sorting algorithm as it doesn't preserve the whole list. Example: [1,3,2,5,2] This is the list to sort [1,3,2,5,2] The first two elements are...

 
5:28 AM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

BubblerLean golf: m + m = n + n -> m = n code-golf math proof-golf lean Your job is to prove the statement in the title for natural numbers in Lean theorem prover (Lean 3 + mathlib). Shortest code in bytes wins. Rules Your code should provide a named theorem or lemma X such that, when the marked sectio...

 
6:36 AM
also i have biology exam in 10mins
 
Good luck.
 
ty
time to go and memorise parts of a flower once again
@emanresuA funny thing: try reading an entire book but you dont pronounce the first letter of each word
 
7:11 AM
@emanresuA wasn't he trying to not bring attention to that former username a couple months back
i believe it was brought up offhand so i dug it up and was like yeah okay i'm fine with not talking about that
 
7:35 AM
Sorry
 
8:14 AM
morning
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

pajonkRevert Flow Free puzzle code-golfarray-manipulationgrid Inspired by Is this Flow Free puzzle trivial? by @Bubbler. Lengthy chunks of this challenge are borrowed from there. This may be one step of a solution for the linked challenge, depending of the strategy. Background Flow Free is a series of ...

 
I need help from someone who is good at computers
 
@Anush what?
well i am not good at computers
 
people.cs.bris.ac.uk/~clifford/coms31900-2021/slides/… is meant to open in ipe but it doesn't work for me
can anyone work out how to fix it?
 
@Anush lol why is everypage repeated thrice
lemme download it again
 
8:29 AM
@pVCaecidiosporeadduced looks like each slide with animations has been turned into a separate slide. Slide #3 has an extra text box compared to slide #2
 
posted on October 07, 2021 by Mark Giraffe

This challenge is currently under beta. Use the Sandbox to fix any issues of the challenge, not on this post.

 
@pVCaecidiosporeadduced I worked out how to fix it!
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Wheat Witcha + b = b + a This question is a part of the lean LotM. Rings are a type of structure that takes the rules of addition and multiplication we are familiar with and abstracts them, so we can reason about them. Rings can be defined in a number of ways. Usually this involves giving a bunch of axiom...

Going to post this today. Looking for feedbaque.
 
feedbaque?
 
8:44 AM
feedback.
 
Baked feedback?
 
9:39 AM
'night
@pxeger the lang select on staging.ato.pxeger.com is broken
 
@pxeger I get downloadable font: no supported format found (font-family: "Fira Code" style:normal weight:400 stretch:100 src index:6) source: (end of source list)
 
10:45 AM
@Anush you mean the slides or the problem??
 
0
Q: questions from interview

GendozzI just had an interview for junior embedded engineer, and they stunned me with next two questions: by changing on character make this program print '*' 20 times void main(){ int i, n=20; for (i=0; i<n; i--) printf("*"); } You get numbers from 1 to 1.000.000 in random sequence, int...

 
11:00 AM
@NewPosts the first question there is ez
 
second one is easy too
 
; i<n -> ;-i<n
 
11:36 AM
@pVCaecidiosporeadduced the problem with the slides. I worked out how to fix it
 
0
Q: ∀ a b. a + b = b + a

Wheat WitchThis question is a part of the lean LotM. Rings are a type of structure that takes the rules of addition and multiplication we are familiar with and abstracts them, so we can reason about them. Rings can be defined in a number of ways. Usually this involves giving a bunch of axioms that are req...

 
@lyxal what if you are only allowed to change 1 charact?
 
that is only changing one character
space to -
 
@NewPosts Why is only the forall bolded?
Is it like that for everyone?
 
11:45 AM
ok why do people say that they are in VSCODE in SO
like in some cases how is that related to the question lol
 
Windows 10 steadfastly continues to believe I have no Internet access for some reason
 
@lyxal still took me a couple of minutes
but the answer is kinda neat tbh
@rak1507 another solution is < to +
kinda compiler-hacky though
 
12:16 PM
@RachitArora I like that solution more
because it's less obvious than changing the condition to use the negated version
@NewPosts I like how the in the first sentence leans because it's in italics
 
@pVCaecidiosporeadduced The trick was to load it in Ipe, prese ctrl-shift-p and then add \usepackage{xcolor} to the preamble.
I am quite pleased with discovering that :)
 
12:58 PM
@Anush wha is lpe?
also @Raze #2
 
yo wassup
 
@pVCaecidiosporeadduced Easy: the pistol, the stampede, the antler, and the overtones
2
 
@AaroneousMiller hi :P
 
Plus pedals to attract insects
 
@RedwolfPrograms you are 7 hours late lol
 
1:43 PM
I love how I occasionally get spam from a company that calls themselves BOOM OF SALES
4
It's a stormy night. You look out the window, and see lightning flash across the sky. Suddenly, you hear a loud boom. The house shakes. You look outside again. There are hundreds of people, throwing money at you. You hear it again. They have a battering ram.
3
 
2:43 PM
 
We need a tag :p
@pajonk I think you should specify how answers should unsolve it
It currently doesn't feel like a self-contained challenge
 
3:02 PM
@RedwolfPrograms thanks. Is it better now?
 
I think so, yeah
 
@pVCaecidiosporeadduced You could golf that by like 38 bytes by using Vyxal instead. /s
 
Idea: A programming language where programs can only be under 100 bytes, but import statements are basically free, so you have to figure out a massive chain of dependencies in order to write working code
2
 
3:20 PM
@Redwolf ruling starboard?!
 
Make sure not to star messages which are right next to each other
Probably pick between the boom of sales message and the one after it
But having both is a bit too much I think
 
i didnt start hose
 
> start hose
 
Stop hose, stop hose!
 
@pVCaecidiosporeadduced software for making slides
 
4:00 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing That works as long I'm allowed to output the length as a character codepoint.
 
Would this qualify for either of these bounties? It already had an answer, but it was by OP, so I don't know if that counts or not for the purposes of the bounties.
 
@AaroneousMiller It doesn't qualify for the second one
Regardless of counting the OP answer as an answer or not, the question had a score of 17 when you answered it
Speaking of, I need to fix my answer to that :/
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing oh, i missed that
 
4:16 PM
@emanresuA correct; the backend on staging is currently stopped because I'm trying to implement a new feature
I'll go ahead and update prod so you don't have to keep using staging
 
@AaroneousMiller However, it should qualify for this. Annoyingly, I didn't realise the min bounty I can award on that is 100, not 50, so I'll start that once the current bounty is done
Actually, given this, I might just award the +50 on any other answer of yours you like. Just let me know which one, and I'll start it asap
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing How about this one? They look pretty much the same anyway :p
@cairdcoinheringaahing I didn't realize you had a specific bounty for that question.
I should really read through the deadlineless bounties and see what there is.
 
4:32 PM
73
Q: Shortest Game of Life

GriffinConway's Game of Life is the classic example of cellular automation. The cells form a square grid and each has two states: alive or dead. On each turn, each cell simultaneously updates according to its state and those of its eight neighbours: A live cell remains alive if it has exactly two or t...

 
@cairdcoinheringaahing So it turns out my answer was actually invalid from first posting, so imma delete it and fix it properly when I get the time
 
4:46 PM
ok, so I guess it doesn't qualify for either bounty then.
I still had a lot of fun making it, though!
 
Still qualifies for my one specifically about that question, and it might qualify for user's
 
5:07 PM
@pxeger @emanresuA updated (live!)
(known bug: you have to reload after initially setting the language)
 
5:18 PM
@Razetime I love the commentary X^D
 
> Deorst ???
 
@pVCaecidiosporeadduced x and y or z is often shorter than y if x else z. Caution: it only works if y is guaranteed to be truthy. In this case, it requires swapping the conditional (the recursive case is always truthy but the base case might not be): Try it online!
 
5:37 PM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Huỳnh Trần KhanhBalanced Bracket Sequence code-golf proof-golf lean A bracket sequence is a string that consists of the characters ( and ). There are two definitions of a balanced bracket sequence. Definition 1 The empty string is balanced. If a string x is balanced, "(" + x + ")" is also balanced. If x and y a...

 
 
2 hours later…
7:34 PM
6
Q: Version labels for answers

Lisa ParkWe’d like to introduce version labels (official name and verbiage pending) for answers, a new product feature idea as part of the larger Outdated Answers project. We hope that this feature will help users more easily identify relevant answers that resolve their problems, as well as highlight oppo...

 
Time to abuse a new feature!
 
@WheatWitch currently writing an answer with the thesis "make the presentation of this feature configurable on a per-site basis so it doesn't have to be massively abused"
 
It seems pretty configurable from the post already.
 
Apart from the fact the whole feature is called "versions"?
 
Yeah.
That's not that important to me.
 
7:58 PM
3
A: Version labels for answers

Mad ScientistOne of my biggest concerns is still that users will tend to misapply the feature. Version tags only provide value if they mark the actual version range where an answer is valid. But if there is a field called "version", I suspect a not insignificant number of people will add the version they used...

 
8:27 PM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Alan BagelImplement this function code-golf Your challenge is to implement this function: $$F(n) = {1! + 2! - 3! + 4! - 5!\dots \pm n!}$$ If n is negative, return -1. If n is a float, floor n then make the calculation. Test Cases 6 => 621 -8 => -1 3.1 => -3 -0.6 => -1 20 => 2317323290554617021

 
Y'all want to add Code Golf to this answer? meta.stackexchange.com/a/370649/284336
 
8:51 PM
Now I'm chuckling at the idea of different dialects of English having "release dates" ^_^
 
@Catija Where in the US did you say you were?
 
9:24 PM
One question: Can answers only be tagged with the language tags of the question, or any language?
 
9:49 PM
0
Q: Recursive Stalin Sort

Redwolf ProgramsThere is a "sorting" algorithm often called Stalin Sort, where instead of sorting an array, you just remove any items that are out of order. In this challenge, you'll implement part of a sorting algorithm which recursively sorts the removed items, then merges the arrays to form one (properly sort...

 
10:03 PM
@hyper-neutrino We should definitely try to convince SE to have a way for new users to suggest "versions"
Actually, I guess there's two possibilities:
Have new users suggest a version for new languages they make, or just have an "other" version for languages that don't have one yet
And then have a mod/high rep user/gold badge holder add one if needed
The second might even be better now that I think about it...
 
We could have a "Create tag, get creator privelege, which you can give to others" sort of thing?
 
That doesn't really fit with SE's model imo
 
Just make a post somewhere that you flag if you want a new version.
 
@RedwolfPrograms I heard about the Texas shooting, I hope you weren't anywhere near that?
 
Hadn't heard about that, so most likely no
 
10:14 PM
@Adám According to her profile, she's in Texas
@RedwolfPrograms Took place in Timberview High, if that means anything
 
Looks like it was in Arlington, which is a few hours away I think
 
@AaroneousMiller Deorst isn't that esoteric
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing Yeah, I only thought to check afterwards.
 
Tho, if it worked as intended, it probably would be
@hyper-neutrino For once, I believe that focussing this feature on SO is the worst possible way SE could've done this
 
"For once" or "for one"?
Usually focusing on SO doesn't result in good things I thought
 
10:26 PM
This primarily seems like a feature that applies most of all to other sites in the network. SO already has tags such as . If this project aims to replace those kind of tags (merge into , use version labels), then it might kinda work, at a complete compromise of how these could be used across the network
However, for sites where this will actually make a difference (us, Law, RPG, etc), we'll inevitably end up having to abuse this feature for our own usage, because, yet again, SE is prioritising SO over the network
@RedwolfPrograms For once. I genuinely believe that using SO as a focus field and a testing ground is a good idea, most of the time
 
@Adám Texas - Austin specifically
@RedwolfPrograms sort of like "retag-request".
 
Just as a first indicator (and I know, this is up to be changed, but still, the fact that was the first idea for a name is telling), "version labelling" misses the entire point of having this kind of answer labelling
 
@Catija Ah, well I'm expecting a once-in-a-lifetime visit to NY soon.
 
Fun! Hopefully you'll enjoy it!
 
SE needs to properly take a step back and decide if they're here for the network, with SO as their flagship; or, if they're here for SO, with the network being dragged along behind them. Until they do, I don't see anything positive in our future
 
10:32 PM
pretty obviously just SO
 
@Adám See if you can get a tour of the SE HQ while you're there :P
 
If they don't let you, bring grappling hooks and some rope, wait 'til the middle of the night, and take a tour anyway :p
 
@Adám I went on a once on a lifetime trip once. Never again!
3
 
@rak1507 *groan*
 
Mar 1 at 21:21, by Redwolf Programs
We could fly to SE's headquarters, then in the dead of night we break in. We pick the lock on the server room and inject a custom payload. The site goes down for a little while. Then, we sneak out through the air ducts. We fly back to our homes, and the next morning the site's magically updated. A few people wonder how, but the meta posts magically vanish. Nobody will ever know.
 
10:33 PM
> As a company we can't help but focus on SO - we know about and care about the other sites but SO is our focus and I don't see that changing in the near future.
 
@Adám NY is great! You should see Corona park. And maybe the highline, but that can be crowded.
 
I've been to NY plenty of times. Lived for almost 5 years in upstate NY (1.5h from NYC).
 
We may not have been sufficiently clear but the company (at least for the last two years particularly) has grouped investment in the platform in the order 1. SO 2. Tech sites 3. Everything else. While the CMs have to pay attention to everything, the development is unable to focus beyond SO for the most part due to size. Features that are site agnostic like election improvements are the most likely to be considered after SO-focused ones.
 
@Adám Yeah, I saw that, which I why I'm ranting here, as I know @Catija is somewhat active here :P
 
@Adám Ah where were you upstate if you don't mind me asking? I've lived in a couple places in and around NY and NY state.
 
10:35 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing But why rant that they should make a decision about something, when they've already done so‽
@WheatWitch Rockland county.
 
I know that on our end we're hoping that Prosus will actually encourage us to spread our focus beyond SO and there's been a few small hints that's something they will consider but until we actually hear something official come through, it's likely to stay SO-focused.
 
@Adám Because even if I'm one voice, I'm a very loud voice, and maybe, just maybe, Catija (or any other CMs) might listen to my yelling, and act on it. I doubt it, but it's more likely that happens when I yell than when I don't
 
 
Plus, I like to think that a lot of the time, my lone voice also has the backing of other CGCC members :P
 
I just read it as SE saying "we're a company, we need to make money, so we're focusing on the part of the site that makes money"...they do still have a duty to their investors to do the best they can to make money, so they'll have to focus more on SO. I don't think it's intended as saying "we don't care about the other sites", since what SE wants to care about and what it has to care about in order to stay in business could very well be two different things.
 
10:40 PM
That may be true. But at the same time we are people who have divergent interests, and we are free to pursue are interests just as doggedly.
 
In today's world, very few for-profit companies have a management that prioritises the common good over profit (immediate or long-term).
 
That said, things are much better than they were even two years ago. When we created the Question Wizard there was no interest in the network and the ask page v2 was SO centric with only very minor allowances for individual site customization. That's why I can't customize the three step points and whatnot.
I have to stop myself from framing it as "not caring" though... the reality is we just don't have the bandwidth or devs to make it more customizable (not to mention the time to actually customize it)
 
@Adám I think trying to personify the interests of a company makes no sense
 
@RedwolfPrograms Better?
 
I think it's interesting how similar this is to the Community Ads. Again, this is something that would be extremely beneficial to sites beyond SO, and those sites would, in all likelihood, use this feature for good.
However, from first glances, and even with the "promises" that none of this is set in stone, this seems like the absolute worst way to go about it. Even worse, is that it seems as tho the company didn't even bother to ask the sites they knew would be most affected by this for ideas/ways to do it well
 
10:42 PM
While it might sound like blatant self-promotion, I believe Dyalog Ltd is one of the few.
 
@Adám That's a bit of false choice. The network is seen as unprofitable (because it is neutral at best and a cost in some cases). Before the Prosus acquisition the choice the company saw was - invest in SO or shut the whole thing down.
 
All in all, SE seems to be following a trend of implementing a feature that kind of helps SO and really helps network sites, then not bothering to follow through on actually changing/improving that feature to do so
 
We didn't lay people off in 2017, and 2020 (and some other point) because we didn't need them.
 
@Catija Oh, OK, I didn't realise SE's economy was that dire.
 
I guess it's hard making money from providing valuable yet free services :/
 
10:45 PM
It has been. It's not now. Teams has been a huge boon and the value we needed. Continuing to create products that people will pay for will allow for additional growth both on SO and the network.
 
@Catija I can totally resonate. At Dyalog too, we have to compromise between pleasing the existing customers (who do get priority over getting any new customers) and developing new exciting (free) things for the world.
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing particularly when you're so picky about who you sell ad space to.
 
@Catija So in a sense, SE becomes a sugar daddy for itself?
 
If SE could find a way to promote the other network sites that'd really be the best option imo...I love the system SE uses so much compared to all the other forums and Q&A sites on the internet, so making those more well-known to different groups and also making them profitable would be such a win-win. Although it's very much a dream I think :p
 
I've been fighting for Teams to come to the network. I think there's some value there... but it's not really something people want to listen to me about.
 
10:47 PM
@Adám that's certainly an interesting way of putting it :p
 
@Catija Given that (or similar) is a tag on MSE, yeah...
 
@hyper-neutrino (I'm not sure the term "sugar daddy" is appropriate here, as it might have an inappropriate context. Isn't there a different term for a company that provides the financial means for a community project?)
 
sponsor? idk if that really fits what you mean
 
It's sorta like what Amazon does with AWS but not evil :p
 
Nah, that's not it. When a company promises to cover all the costs of some world-benefiting thing…
 
10:49 PM
@Adám I do think that it does generally make sense when it actually gets explained... but for some reason we're just too tight lipped about some of this stuff... probably because it would make us seem lower value to potential investors (?) but I wonder whether that can change now that Prosus bought us.
 
@Catija Just in case you pass this up to Philippe/Teresa/anyone above you in the company: I genuinely think that SE's "new features" plan has its heart in the right place, but it falling flat on its execution. The ideas you've been implementing and testing are really promising, and I'm very excited for a lot of them. But the way that y'all are approaching them is just... off slightly.
Most of the time, it comes from the fact that SO is the entire navy of SE, not just the flagship, and so changes are always made with SO in mind. But sometimes, that's the wrong mindset, for both SO and the rest of the network, and I think SE needs to start considering some features as "This would be really beneficial to site X. How can we make that applicable to more sites?" rather than "SO gets this. How does that work with other sites?" Just my 2 (and a few more) cents.
 
Sure... I've been pretty consistent in telling sites - you want a new feature? Find other sites that need it, too and use that larger request to sell us on the value. I understand you want us to do that and I'm hoping we'll get there eventually... but I can talk myself blue in the face but I'm pretty sure things like that answer I linked earlier will have more impact than me.
I can't possibly come up with all of those examples on my own and it can seem like I'm just throwing random stuff out there to get people to see the value but having people independently talking about the value to their sites is hugely powerful.
Don't interpret this as "people don't listen to me"... they do. But I have a reputation as the person constantly fighting for the network and that can somewhat erode my value but getting proof that I'm not just making stuff up will support my voice.
 
11:51 PM
Oh, Ander Kaseorg changed their profile picture
 
Anyone here interested in having a go at creating a logo for APL?
 
@Adám I'm awful at design, but I like giving feedback , so IMO only the first one is even close to looking like a language logo. The rest just don't ...fit, and don't work as logos IMO
 

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