The Nineteenth Byte

website broken confirmed:

Yup

@ConorO'Brien In v2, executing other interpreters will be possible from Bash and all other languages that can launch programs . A REPL would require a bit of extra work though.

@quartata Not me, but if you want to hang out at 6998 for a while, I could help with that.

@Dennis cool! how do you plan on disabling destructive stuff in bash? (e.g. removing and writing to files)

quartata

12:16 AM

@Geobits Might take you up on that when I'm at 8,193

Woops

boi fite me I will take you on

Question: I'm designing a python API. Should I use snake_case or camelCase? If I go with camel case should I capitalize the first letter?

@DJMcMayhem snake_case_by_python_convention

camelCase by commonSense

>_>

!
^

12:18 AM

Are you talking about classes, methods, variables, what?

quartata

No, snake_case is the Python standard and you'll look weird if you don't use it

Well, sure, be all normal and stuff.

@Geobits classes won't matter too much cause they're not supposed to be initialized from python, so the class name is less important. They're instances of custom classes

def regular_dirty_python():
    return 0

def commonSense():
    return 1

def SCREAMING_SNAKE():
    return 2

def SCREAMINGcAMEL():
    return 4-1

2

@DJMcMayhem ThisIsPascalCase

Great, now you've got me wanting to use SCREAMINGcAMEL.

12:20 AM

Ah, thanks

@Geobits my work is done

@ConorO'Brien What is that

what is what?

Oh

The code thingo

i'M TYPING THIS IN SCREAMINGcAMEL

yes

12:22 AM

Ah

Personally, I'd much prefer PascalCase over camelCase

@DJMcMayhem Ditto

Java uses both, to distinguish what it is.

@ConorO'Brien Sandboxing will be a core feature of v2. It will run on Fedora, with SELinux enabled, and the untrusted code will be executed in an unprivileged context.

You mean, IaMtYPINGtHISiNsCREAMINGcAMELcASE

12:23 AM

But anything's better then ugly_python_names.

@Dennis oh, cool!

@Geobits what's_wrong_with_python_case?

I agree that if you're writing a python API though, you should probably go with convention.

@Qwerp-Derp It makes things longer, and requires a shift-reach for every word.

I don't really like camelCase, I'd rather python_case or PascalCase

@Geobits True

I'm considering running frontend and backend on two different servers, as an extra layer of security. That requires extra cash though...

12:26 AM

which languages use allinonecase?

SQL LIKES TO YELL. DOES THAT COUNT?

8

SO DOES BATCH. o/\o if you grew up with DOS.

PRINT "SO DOES BASIC"

@Dennis I use screaming BATCH, but Neil doesn't :/

GOTO 10

12:28 AM

what does R use?

> Most programming language communities
have naming conventions that are generally
agreed upon, that is, a set of rules that
governs how functions and variables are named.
This is not the case with R, and a review of unofficial
style guides and naming convention usage
on CRAN shows that a number of different
naming conventions are currently in use.

Ugh. Hard line breaks in my paste :/

Apparently some popular ones are lowerCamel, PascalCase, underscore_crap, alllowercase, and period.separated.for.some.reason

Why would you have period.separated.case?

'member manually optimizing memory usage because you only had 640K? Good times.

@Qwerp-Derp I don't see why it's worse than underscore_crap, and can think of at least one reason it's better.

It's much quicker/easier to type than _ at any rate.

How about hyphen-separated-case?

12:34 AM

Parse error on line one: symbol 'hyphen' not defined

I guess if you weren't using - as an operator that could work, but still eww.

idea: space-separated case, but q is used where spaces usually are

That'sqaqhorribleqidea,qespeciallyqinqPython

qqqqdefqmy little function(input):

Soqsomethingqlikeqthis?

basically

12:37 AM

@ConorO'Brien Still better than PascalCase.

@StevenH. Youqmeanqqqqqdefqmyqlittleqfunctionq(input):,qright?

@Dennis ಠ_ಠ

No, it's space separated case not q-separated-case

@ConorO'Brien Huh? Do you use PascalCase?

How bad is PascalCase? ಠ_ಠ

12:38 AM

@Dennis in classes, yes

It's OK for class names. Just not everywhere.

17 mins ago, by DJMcMayhem

Personally, I'd much prefer PascalCase over camelCase

I agree. Except if you're using mathematica

@DJMcMayhem Let's see what else you're doing wrong. :P Tabs or spaces?

ಠ_ಠ

At the very least, hitting space 4 times is way worse than using tabs

Or even worse, 8 times. shudders

12:42 AM

@DJMcMayhem Ditto again!

Everything is worse than tabs; it's the only proper way.

1 min ago, by DJMcMayhem

ಠ_ಠ

That's four of those faces in 5 minutes. I'll see myself out now.

3

What case would you use for an instance of a class in a module? E.g. import foo; foo.myExistingObject

Snake, pascal or camel?

I only use underscores in Python.

12:46 AM

TBH as long as you are consistent, I don't care what you use, tabs or spaces. I use them both.

Only 135 to go...

@ConorO'Brien please don't say that. Spaces + tabs is the worst indentation ever

> as long as you are consistent

Fine

I do hope there's an accept or question upvote in between. I'd like to hit a round 100K.

12:48 AM

I'm not super picky, but my project is currently a horrible mix between camel and Pascal, and I should probably fix that ASAP

@Dennis I just accepted your answer--do you want me to unaccept? :P

Nah. If nothing else helps, I'll just have to write a question.

@Dennis So you should just look for 5 really bad answers, and then save a link to all of them. Then if nothing happens, down vote all of them really quickly

Downvoting to round my rep. I like it.

@Dennis try outgolfing people on some of my answers/doing one of my unanswered challenges--I'd accept right away :P

12:51 AM

Actually, you've probably already won like 5 of my old challenges that I haven't accepted yet

Whenever I notice I haven't accepted in a while, I always end up accepting at least 2 or 3 of yours

accept in pairs

:)

new comic

disclaimer: not terribly amusing

period.case

Ugh

> Hiya! I is Javascript.

1:03 AM

I think I captured it pretty well :P

@DJMcMayhem I know of the Left Behind game, which I've never played, and another game I played many years ago that was mostly a maze traversal game, but was thoroughly inundated with Christian references. Something that could be pretty interesting as a game theme would be anatheism - going away and then coming back to the faith. This has precedence too; basically every major Christian figure has experienced a period of doubt and withdrawal before having their faith restored and strengthened.

Huh. I've never heard of that game. Is it related to the left behind book series?

The guy in Extra Credits mentioned the Good vs Evil meter that some games have and possibly changing it out for a Faith vs Skepticism meter. What if, instead, the moral choices you make steer you towards one of the major religions (or skeptic groups)? Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Agnosticism, and Atheism. The Seven-Fold Choice.

@DJMcMayhem Yup. Everything I've heard is that it's absolutely terrible.

@El'endiaStarman So what is the incentive to work toward one of them?

(in a game, that is)

Which makes sense. Writing a story that is explicitly and intentionally Christian typically means it's a lesser story. Applies to books, movies, and presumably games too.

@Geobits Well, I was specifically thinking that there wouldn't necessarily be any incentive towards one of them. Just a series of moral choices.

Speaking of which, are there any games that present you with the Trolley Problem?

1:15 AM

Okay, but what happens as a result, though? You can't just have a 'religio-meter' in your game without it meaning something, can you?

@El'endiaStarman maybe? I can't think of one, but it seems like there should be

@Geobits Hmmm, right, the other characters would have to react to it, wouldn't they?

@El'endiaStarman The Last of Us gives an interesting moral choice at the end, but I'm not entirely sure it makes a difference in that case.

This war of mine is basically nothing but interesting moral choices.

Like, "should I rob this peaceful elderly couple, or let my friend starve?"

@Geobits Another possibility is that you're challenged with different moral choices based on the choices you've made before.

@DJMcMayhem That sounds like an agonizing game to play.

1:22 AM

@El'endiaStarman I think that's been tried, but never perfected that I know of. The tree gets big :/

It is. Also one of my favorites

@Geobits Yeah, that's the difficulty.

The developer is really cool also. They added a DLC that's pay what you want and give every penny of it to charity.

@DJMcMayhem Clearly you should rob them if they won't starve as a result. Robin Hood that food ;)

Question: how do I run an executable on a moutned disk?

Apparently object files requires to run said executable are not able to be found

1:26 AM

I'm not sure why it would be any different than usual.

As in, are you sure the required files are there (wherever it looks for them anyway)? It sounds like a straightforward message to me.

# ./sudo
./sudo: error while loading shared libraries: libaudit.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

ಠ_ಠ

@DJMcMayhem Just watched the trailers for This War of Mine, and jeez, looks intense.

What is ./sudo supposed to do exactly?

@Geobits It's actually not quite that simple. If you do too much shitty stuff to other people, your characters will become depressed, or even suicidal.

1:30 AM

@DJMcMayhem I'd say it sounds like real life, but in real life there are usually a lot more than two options in that scenario.

@El'endiaStarman Yeah, it totally is. I highly recommend it (but it is really hard to play)

1:43 AM

@Downgoat Sudo is special. You need proper permissions and everything or it won't work.

i know. I borked my sudo permissions and no i am testing to see if it is fixed

this happens with any binary tho

> This may take up to an hour witha typical broadband connection.

Installs in a couple minutes

:D

@DJMcMayhem (ruby question) Say I have a variable that contains the string E. How do I get Obj::E (say) given the variable?

0_0 What makes you think I know ruby? :P

@ConorO'Brien I know how to do Obj.E, but not sure how to do Obj::E

@DJMcMayhem you used it for esolangs?

1:50 AM

s/langs/lang

@Cyoce oh, okay. How do you do the former, out of curiosity?

And that was just cause I wanted to learn it

@DJMcMayhem ah

It was good though. Overall a good language, from the tiny bit I know about it

@ConorO'Brien probably a better way to do this, but assuming e contains the string "E", you can do Obj.method(e.to_sym)[]

1:51 AM

oh, cool!

ETHproductions

Does anyone happen to know if there is anything about the version history of Gecko anywhere on the web?

...nobody? That's what I thought; if Google doesn't know, probably no one else does. Maybe I'll go ask in the JS room

I was going to post some early rendering of the Geico mascot, but decided against it. If I'd known nobody else was going to pipe up, I would have.

ETHproductions

haha, I'd still like to see an early rendering if you have one ;)

2:07 AM

Well here's his television debut, if that helps:

The 1999 Geico Gecko

►

The voice has changed slightly for sure ;)

@ConorO'Brien actually, looks like you'd want #send

irb(main):001:0> Math.send :E
NoMethodError: undefined method `E' for Math:Module
        from (irb):1
        from C:/Ruby23-x64/bin/irb.cmd:19:in `<main>'

2:30 AM

@ConorO'Brien that's still for Math.E, not Math::E. I'm saying obj.send e.to_sym is preferable to obj.method(e.to_sym)[]

@ConorO'Brien to get Math::E, use Math.const_get :E

oh, thanks ! :D

Q: Some ASCII art for N64's 20th B-Day

2:50 AM

Lol, looks like IE 11 on NetRenderer got hijacked.

New Main Posts

3:58 AM

0

The official release of the Nintendo 64 in North America was on September 29, 1996.[1] I figured that this anniversary deserved an ASCII art challenge. There's one small twist though, you have to output a different ASCII art for each of three different inputs. If the input is 1, output this ASCI...

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

Possibly mildly nsfw (though not really anything offensive, but epic

triggered

Jeez that acronym is painful

My mother was right: A watched bot never posts.

Waiting on NewMain again?

I mean, it's not like you can go around self-promoting with DJ right here :P

4:13 AM

Sandbox, actually. Also, thanks a lot, DJ. :P

Seriously though, I should actually thank the users that made us have to discuss self-promotion in the first place. Expect a gratuitous bobcat in your mail next week.

@Dennis :P

I think it's funny how that particular post received two salt-votes, and I have nothing to back it up, but I think can guess who it might be...

I suspect this wouldn't even come up if the feeds weren't so fricking slow. 16 minutes and counting...

For once I'm not the one suspected of the lone downvote? :P

@Dennis Go make some coffee or something.

Downvote arrows on meta aren't blue, are they?

Better yet, bring me some coffee.

4:20 AM

yeah they are.

12 AM is no time for coffee.

12:20 is

I just downvoted, and then quickly undownvoted your sandbox post to check

Huh, shows how much I know.

You need to downvote more ;)

4:21 AM

FWIW, it looks cool, and I can understand the task from the examples, but the mathy-notation goes way over my head.

As soon as you start pulling out greek letters, you've already lost me

Tried to make the definitions solid. Math crept in.

Hey, omega is the standard variable name for the first infinite ordinal. Not my fault.

Oh, you mean squiggly 'w'?

Replace it with oo if you must. :P

That one.

I see that, and "V with a little tail"

Or upside down lambda

That's gamma.

It looks weird in Arial though.

4:24 AM

No, that's a lazy Y

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

22 minutes. Well, as long as there's still wine left...

New Sandboxed Posts

0

Hyper about quines code-challenge quine code-generation source-layout busy-beaver Inspired by Hyperprogramming: N+N, N×N, N^N all in one. Definitions Hyperquines Define a n,m–hyperquine as a quine-like full program or function P that satisfies all rules that apply to proper quines and, in a...

\o/

random curse words finally!

@Dennis I'll take a glass of that, too. I'm not picky or anything.

4:27 AM

Hey, speaking of feeds, that reminds me of a question I had. I wrote:

> Right now, we have feeds for new main posts, new meta posts, new sandboxed posts, and new standard loopholes. There might be some others, but these are the ones I can think of.

Am I missing anything?

Sure, just give me your address. (I hope the bobcat doesn't drink it.)

New featured posts, but it doesn't work.

Oh. I wonder why

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/240/…

@Dennis I thought you had it. Why else would I keep getting Dennis the Menace comics delivered every week with no return address?

Um, that did not work.

4:30 AM

Yeah, I just found the link

The whole idea would become a lot easier if all submissions had to be infinite sequences. I'm not sure how feasible that is though, and it would probably exclude even more languages than it does already.

> Geobits has added feed NewMainComments

NewMainAnswers wasn't enough?

Not nearly

Reminds me of that mod feeds room.

4:37 AM

The Smokerbot one, or is this some super secret room?

No, someone created a room with one feed for each mod. Posts questions, answers, and comments.

Oh, like a "watching the watchers" kind of thing? How delightfully creepy.

Also a bit useless. I've posted over 3000 comments since I joined. Good luck going through those.

So tempted to upvote your 11 random posts and congratulate you ;_;

I've left almost 600 comments...

@betseg Do not do that. It'll get reverted

4:42 AM

Ah? It seams SE has nice things on the background

Yeah, serial voting is not only automatically reversed, it can also lead to a suspension.

A: I gave someone +200 rep and a Mortarboard Badge

Very relevant:

47

I'm sure this is not really brightening anyone's day. You're not doing that person any favors. Someone might look at that and think this person is guilty of vote fraud. Please stop voting this way, it's more annoying than anything else.

Not if done once, obviously.

@Dennis I'm at 2000, but that's here and SO combined. No way I'm going through all the sites to get a total though.

There's only a handful of sites. I am/was really active on. ~3100 here, ~1000 on SU, and ~600 on Mother Meta.

4:49 AM

My "very active" is clearly very different than yours.

I've got 439 on MMeta, which surprised me a bit, since I wasn't really active there very long.

With 261 more on SO, that's roughly 5000.

Yeah, another couple hundred on puzzling... I could probably get to 3000 if I keep it up, but I doubt 4000.

Oh, my count here includes deleted comments btw. I took it from the mods page, not my profile.

I have more than 200 rep on only PPCG and Area 51.

4:51 AM

@Dennis Cheater :P

Oh, I've got 200+ on 13.

Then at least one answer to put me between 102-199 on seven more.

Didn't realize it. I went there to see the stats of all mods at once.

I noticed that text doesn't exist. I was thinking it should be a synonym for string. What do you think?

@Dennis How many comments do I have if you include deleted?

o_O

No clue. It's a page that displays moderation stats.

You'd need a diamond to show up.

Now you've got me really curious. I'm sure there's some way somehow...

4:55 AM

@Dennis That's quite a high price, but okay... ♦

:P

♦_♦

Oh crap. I'm not on the first page in the user list any more. I need to think up a couple good challenges :(

Damn you people and your "actively participating in more than just chat".

5:14 AM

Once I'm a bit less busy with TIO, I should take another stab at oeis.org/A116881 and the Can you outgolf me? CnR. I've found such a nice property, but I failed to properly golf the alternative implementation. ._.

Alternatively, that sequence would make a nice challenge.

I just noticed another user on Parenting SE that's also named Dennis.

It's a common name... When I became mod, I considered changing my username to something more unique.

That's also why I changed my avatar.

What was your old avatar?

Fractal thingie. Let's see if I can find it.

Ugh, my home folder is a mess.

It was in the Misc folder, an even bigger mess.

5:36 AM

I'm really proud of my home folder.

148 folders, 943 files (1.3 GiB)

not good

Mine is about (excluding Steam) 30 folders and 50 megs

25 folders, 53.7 GB.

Oh, those 1.3 GiB are just loose files.

With subfolders and without following links, that's 107G.

Omg

I have a separate partition for junk, /mnt/things, about 200 folders and 150 gigs

5:46 AM

This is a bit of a homework question but when refering to the verb "etre" itself in french, do I use masculine or feminine form of ce?

@TùxCräftîñg i think you can help ^

i.e. do I say c'est etre or cela est etre or ceci est etre?

@betseg Yeah, I have that too. /mnt/Various is 4.0T big.

@Dennis O_O

woah

I think he collects the stuff we write in TIO :P

Megs, gigs, what for terabytes?

6:05 AM

More than a few ISOs, backups from old phones/laptops/operating systems, music (videos), and yet another Misc folder.

I just discovered that I've downloaded a VirtualBox image with IE 11 on Windows 7 once. That should help with testing TIO.

> yet another misc folder

ಠ_ಠ

Hey, netrenderer unborked. v2 doesn't look half bad on IE 11.

IE 10 is another story...

Even ms gave up on ie10

The scary thing is the comparatively high percentage of IE 8 users. I'd have to write a completely different page to support IE 8.

IE 7 shows a blank page, IE 6 and below have the web browsing equivalent of a segfault.

@Dennis ikr (first sentence)

6:12 AM

XP users, I assume.

Nope, some people i know use ie8 on win7

that faux source code question

how exactly do you not hard code outputting one?

s/some/most/

OK, if I still used Windows 7, IE would probably stuck at version 8 too. No need to upgrade a browser I don't use.

hey @Dennis, you replied to my 'how to make a code page' request, but I'm stuck at how to actually "map bytes to the 256 characters [I] selected"

6:17 AM

@Dennis they use ie :/

@DestructibleWatermelon For source code from a file, Jelly does this:

with open(jelly.sys.argv[2], 'rb') as file:
        code = file.read()
if flag_utf8:
        code = ''.join(char for char in code.decode('utf-8').replace('\n', '¶') if char in jelly.code_page)
else:
        code = ''.join(jelly.code_page[i] for i in code)

Ignore the replace('\n', '¶') part if newlines are actual newlines.

how would I write the byte, say, 0xFE, to a file, before I use it?

With a hexeditor or a hexdump utility like xxd.

In practice, you'll be using UTF-8 mode anyway.

Ok, so do I need to actually make an encoder (or use a hexeditor), or do I just need to make it technically feasible to use the code page?

The interpreter has to be able to digest an x bytes file to claim a score of x bytes. That's it. Nobody is going to (or should) use it.

6:24 AM

huh. what if I want to test it?

also how about half byte encodings?

Well, of course you should test it, but you don't need to provide an easy way to write programs using the custom code page.

@DestructibleWatermelon That's trickier, but not by much. Divmod each byte by 16, process quotient and remainder separately.

Ah, the good old days when images opened in a separate window.

what about 3/4 byte encodings?

I'm hoping one day, if this language works, I might win a challenge

Bit magic.

Or abuse base64.encode to do it for you.

If I just copied and pasted your code, but with name changes, would I still need to test it?

You should always test the code you write.

6:31 AM

ok, it's just I never used xxd or anything like it

Imagine you realize after six months that there was a bug and you have to revise the score on all of your answers.

I doesn't have to be xxd. You could write it in Python or whatever.

the hex editor?

xxd is dead simple though. xxd -ps -r <<< fefefefe > file writes four 0xFE bytes to file.

In Bash, anyway.

so how exactly do read code as byte numbers and not characters?

In Python?

6:35 AM

yes

file.read() returns a bytes string. You actually have to use decode to convert it to characters.