The Nineteenth Byte

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

9:00 PM

yes

Geobits

Very kind

DJMcMayhem

@trichoplax what are you talking about? It needs another 186 downvotes. :P

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

lel

rekt

ColdGolf

So, I want to ask about code snippets. Sometimes a user posts a full program, right, it's too many bytes. Someone else makes a one-liner and his answer is accepted. Is this okay?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

snippet = no

function = yes

trichoplax

9:01 PM

@DJMcMayhem You use Fahrenheit when dealing with absolute zero?!?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

lamdba = yes

@trichoplax you use celsius?

Geobits

@trichoplax Absolute zero is obviously just zero. Use the right scale.

2

Nathan Merrill

and full programs = yes

trichoplax

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ guilty...

Nathan Merrill

which is why one-liners in python are ok

DJMcMayhem

9:01 PM

@trichoplax I don't really ever deal with absolute zero. I'm not a physicist

Nathan Merrill

but in Java they aren't

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ColdGolf as long as you can either assign it to a function or run it by itself, it's valid

ColdGolf

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Okay.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@trichoplax yep.

@Geobits leave to to geobits...

ColdGolf

@DJMcMayhem That's rude to us scientists haha.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

9:02 PM

i thought you were a math dude?

ColdGolf

I'm both when I need to be.

DJMcMayhem

I actually like the metric system a lot more, and wish we used it over here but I don't intuitively understand it the same way

ColdGolf

Scientists don't talk about the metric system. They're used to it, heh.

Nathan Merrill

we need a temperature scale that works logarithmically

Geobits

It a heck of a lot easier to use for anything mathy, but I still prefer standard/imperial for most things day to day.

ColdGolf

9:04 PM

@NathanMerrill rmf.smf.mx/pdf/rmf/43/5/43_5_837.pdf

DJMcMayhem

@Geobits that's cause you're used to it (like me). Wouldn't it be better to get the best of both worlds?

ColdGolf

I hate logarithmic scales, though.

trichoplax

@ColdGolf That's a good question actually. Meta seems somewhat undecided as there is no snippets but also REPL code is acceptable so maybe it needs more discussion

ColdGolf

@trichoplax Yeah, sure. I'll post it on meta.

trichoplax

I'm not sure how to ask a new meta question that isn't a duplicate though

El'endia Starman

9:05 PM

@ColdGolf They're very useful for comparing magnitudes though.

ColdGolf

@El'endiaStarman Look, I hate the decibel scale.

So don't even start.

El'endia Starman

Do you hate the Richter scale too?

Geobits

@DJMcMayhem Yeah, and like I said, I use it for some things. I've lived in a multiple countries and can generally get by with both.

ColdGolf

@El'endiaStarman Is the Richter scale quantitative, though?

DJMcMayhem

What? The decibel scale works perfectly

ColdGolf

9:06 PM

Nobody said it didn't.

I just hate the way it was made.

Nathan Merrill

@trichoplax wait, I'm confused. When would a Python REPL be able to do something that a Python program wouldn't?

DJMcMayhem

@Geobits ah, there you've got the upper hand. I've never lived outside the US

ColdGolf

2 decibels + 2 decibels = 5 decibels

2 +2 = 4

Mr. inventor of decibels, why are you doing this to us?

trichoplax

@NathanMerrill All I can think of is implicit printing

Nathan Merrill

actually...I know of a Java REPL

oooh, time to do some golfing

Geobits

9:07 PM

@NathanMerrill Link please?

Nathan Merrill

oO I got a 502 on a google search

I'm still getting a 502

bah, it works now

plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/7215?pr=

Geobits

Sounds like somebody at Google just got fired.

Nathan Merrill

I actually use it quite frequently when debugging

Geobits

Oh, I wonder if they have one for Eclipse? If not, that may be the final straw to get me to switch.

Nathan Merrill

hmmm...that may not be the right plugin

trichoplax

9:10 PM

@ColdGolf With your background in mathematics, I suspect you can argue your case more convincingly and more positively. There's also no need to stretch out one statement over 5 lines of screen space.

Nathan Merrill

but in essence, when debugging, I can type in an expression, and it will evaluate it right then and there

ColdGolf

@trichoplax meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/9933/…

quartata

@NathanMerrill Beanshell is also really good

Geobits

Hmm. I think i've seen something similar. I'll have to take a look later.

trichoplax

@ColdGolf I agree this isn't as clear cut on meta yet as I'd like, but that wording is a direct duplicate of the discussion I linked to, so I expect it will be closed.

Nathan Merrill

9:13 PM

oooh...this is fun:

javarepl.com/console.html

you can even do imports

ColdGolf

@trichoplax See my comment.

Fine, I've deleted the thing.

Nathan Merrill

seriously, I think I found the answer to "Java can't golf". Just REPL it :)

trichoplax

@ColdGolf I did. The accepted answer can always be changed if another gains more votes

flawr

@NathanMerrill I'm confused 0_o

ColdGolf

@trichoplax It's about consensus, not accepted answers only.

Geobits

9:15 PM

@NathanMerrill Yes, this is very nice indeed. Bookmarked :P

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@ColdGolf so if you do hate Logarithmic scales please get enough paper to chart this chart of common sounds onto a linear plot true to scale.... hearingsense.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/…

Geobits

I mean, it still can't golf well, but it will cut a lot of overhead.

trichoplax

@ColdGolf The close votes aren't meant as an attack on you personally. I'd like to see more discussion of this. I just don't think having an identical question is going to help. I've been trying to think of a new way to ask myself

ColdGolf

Again, 2+2 decibels = 5. Normal 2+2 = 4.

Decibels is complicated, at least in my opinion.

@trichoplax I've already deleted the question since people were so hostile towards it.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@ColdGolf ok, simplify it, Please acquire enough paper to make that chart send it to me, and I'll give you 500 reputation poitns as a bounty

trichoplax

9:17 PM

@ColdGolf The acceptance isn't the important thing - yes exactly it's the answer with the consensus that gets accepted

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

BUT it has to be a linear scale

@trichoplax what is this discussion about?

ColdGolf

@RohanJhunjhunwala If you want to change decibels to a linear scale, go ahead. I'm not doing it.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

(Sorry If I'm "butting in")

@ColdGolf you were the one who said that you hated it I had no problem with it

Nathan Merrill

Actually, the argument in the "REPLs are allowed, because a REPL is an interpreter" is a bit faulty. Lets say I'm in the middle of debugging program X, and I use the current state of that program when using the debugger's REPL

ColdGolf

@RohanJhunjhunwala I hated it, doesn't mean I have the authority to change it.

trichoplax

9:18 PM

@ColdGolf Repeating something that was ignored earlier, and adding more unnecessary blank lines, is irritating a number of people here. The interesting discussion we're also having isn't going to stop me kicking you out of the room if that continues

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

yes... do go on @NathanMerrill

ColdGolf

@trichoplax Chat markdown is bad, and newlines makes things more clear.

trichoplax

@ColdGolf Pointing out that it's a duplicate isn't hostility, it's just how meta works (same as on main). You don't need to look for enemies where there are none

ColdGolf

@trichoplax I know. I've realised that meta.SE is better than all the other metas.

trichoplax

@RohanJhunjhunwala About starting a discussion on meta for something which needs discussing, but already has a meta question

@ColdGolf That doesn't sound in any way relevant, and seems to be just trying to start an argument. Kick next time as this is spoiling the atmosphere for everyone else

ColdGolf

9:22 PM

@trichoplax I'm not trying to start any arguments. You're just assuming everything is one. Even this very text isn't an argument.

Nathan Merrill

@RohanJhunjhunwala er...that was my entire argument

trichoplax

@ColdGolf As stated earlier, just giving the impression is enough to get you kicked

DJMcMayhem

@ColdGolf uh... yes it is

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@trichoplax I think its good I think its ok, to start another discussion on a topic as long as you can significantly modify the original question to approach to discussion in a new way, and future answers will be significantly different.

Nathan Merrill

actually, I found the fault in my argument. An "interpreter with state" is effectively the same thing as "storing the state in the name of the program"

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

9:24 PM

@NathanMerrill I'm confused

Nathan Merrill

you familiar with MetaGolfScript?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

Yes

It's a family of languages where each language has only possible output based on the name of the language.

Geobits

@NathanMerrill I'd have downvoted interpreter-with-state on general principle, yes :P

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

What is an interpeter with state @Geobits

Nathan Merrill

MetaGolfScript3456789 is an interpreter with state

Geobits

9:26 PM

Basically what Nathan said earlier: "Lets say I'm in the middle of debugging program X, and I use the current state of that program when using the debugger's REPL"

Nathan Merrill

3456789 is that state

trichoplax

@RohanJhunjhunwala Yes finding a new way to ask that makes it different is what I've been trying to do. CodeGolf's question was just the same question with no modification, which is why it gathered close votes

Nathan Merrill

but if I'm debugging, and I use that interpreter, its basically the same thing as using MetaGolfScript

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@trichoplax thats good... did CodeGolf leave voluntarily

@NathanMerrill you mean like a family of different interpreters just based on which one you pick

trichoplax

I'd assume that if we do allow REPLs, then the code would have to work with a fresh instance

Geobits

9:27 PM

@RohanJhunjhunwala Based on the program you're debugging and the breakpoint.

Nathan Merrill

exactly

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

I don't think that is really cheating iff you add bytes to account for that state

MetaGOlfScript 3456789 an empty program will take 7 additional bytes of state

Geobits

So you could do the real work in that program, break once you have the answer in a, and say "my program is echo a".

Sure it's not cheating if you count those bytes, but then there's no point to doing it at all.

Nathan Merrill

well, isn't MetaGolfScript allowed? Don't we simply downvote, but because each MetaGolfScript program is allowed, we simply say "its a different language, scored against itself"?

trichoplax

@RohanJhunjhunwala That information is available to moderators and room owners, but isn't advertised beyond that. I won't get into a habit of mentioning it. I suspect after some initial problems this user will end up making a positive contribution to the site - the evidence for it is already there

ColdGolf

9:28 PM

@Geobits What's wrong with MetaGolfScript? It's a valid language.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Geobits ok, the "real work" should be counted

@trichoplax ok, sorry I was unaware of that policy.

Dennis

@ColdGolf No, it's a standard loophole.

Nathan Merrill

I believe the same rule would apply to having a REPL in the middle of debugging. It's its own language, and scored against itself

ColdGolf

@Dennis MetaGolfScript can do primes and can add two numbers together.

Geobits

And yet it's still a standard loophole. They were chosen by the community to be invalid here.

trichoplax

9:30 PM

@RohanJhunjhunwala I don't know of a rule, I'm just trying to be careful not to draw undue attention - you certainly have nothing to apologise for :)

Dennis

37

A: Loopholes that are forbidden by default

Using MetaGolfScript MetaGolfScript is a family of programming languages. For example, the empty program in MetaGolfScript-209180605381204854470575573749277224 prints "Hello, World!". It is similar to using extra command line arguments, where they should also count as characters. And using the ...

Geobits

Whether or not it's technically a language doesn't matter.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@trichoplax ok, thanks

Releasing Helium Nuclei

#ifdef __unix__
# include <fcntl.h>
#endif

@ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΨΠʹ ^

ColdGolf

@Geobits Wait, I thought Martin Ender already clarified this? MetaGolfScript follows all ppcg rules of being a language.

trichoplax

9:31 PM

Even without the loophole, only MetaGolfScripts that had a working interpreter before the challenge was posted would be valid, which rules out pretty much 100% of them

ColdGolf

@trichoplax I agree with that.

Geobits

@ColdGolf I'd be interested to see that discussion if you have a link.

ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΨΠʹ

@ReleasingHeliumNuclei meh, I wrote it at school when I was bored

All the computers there run Win7

ColdGolf

34

Q: What are programming languages?

Often, answers to questions asking for "programs" or talking about "programming languages" utilize things like sed, awk, … in order to get around having to write an actual shell script. Therefore, a question comes to my mind: What qualifies as a programming language? Sure, ultimately the OP ca...

Dennis

@ColdGolf If MetaGolfScript was allowed, every code golf contest would have a 0 byte solution. If you don't consider this a problem, I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

9:33 PM

^

ColdGolf

I know it's a problem, I'm just saying the ppcg rules of what classifies as a programming language should also exclude MetaGolfScript explicitly.

Otherwise, MetaGolfScript remains a programming language under the rules.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@ColdGolf but the standard loopholes explciitly block it

Conor O'Brien

@TimmyD thanks! :D

Geobits

Like I said, you can call it a language just fine, but it's still explicitly banned here.

ColdGolf

@Geobits Fine.

trichoplax

9:34 PM

@ColdGolf The only MetaGolfScript that can solve a challenge in zero bytes is one that didn't exist before the challenge was posted

Downgoat

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ blasphemy, how dare goats be compared to lowly sheep

ColdGolf

@trichoplax Which is almost all of them.

ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΨΠʹ

CMC: 1. Enumerate all Turing machines that operate on bytes. 2. Write a GolfScript program to emulate each Turing machine. 3. Post the relevant MetaGolfScript interpreters on GitHub.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@ColdGolf if you wish to explicitly accept Meta-Golfscript I think you technically can in your challenge, but you are forbidden from using it in any challenge

ColdGolf

@RohanJhunjhunwala I agree.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

9:35 PM

@ColdGolf But prepare for the downvotes

ColdGolf

@ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΨΠʹ VTC restricting inputs to one programming language

@RohanJhunjhunwala I never said I would do it myself.

Dennis

@ColdGolf We also require that an interpreter must have existed before the challenge was posted. MGS doesn't comply with this rule, since it requires infinite distinct interpreters.

DJMcMayhem

If someone were to explicitly allow mgs in their challenge, I guarantee they would be downvoted like crazy

trichoplax

@ColdGolf Having one language as a theme is fine, as long as you can still do the work in any language

Dennis

@DJMcMayhem I'd close the challenge as too broad (and have done so in the past).

ColdGolf

9:36 PM

@trichoplax Wait, doesn't that mean I need an interpreter for the theme language in my language first?

ThreeFx

Hey all

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Dennis what about catalog styled questions?

Conor O'Brien

@Dennis on the merit of allowing MGS?

ThreeFx

LOL 2 days later, my profile is still screwed

Nathan Merrill

@Dennis simply for allowing MetaGolfScript? What's broad about that?

bah, ninja'd

DJMcMayhem

9:37 PM

@ThreeFx what do you mean?

trichoplax

@ColdGolf Quite possibly - it wasn't a serious CMC. It was just to demonstrate the impossibility of having an interpreter available before the challenge is posted ;)

ThreeFx

My profile pic in chat is red

ColdGolf

@trichoplax Okay.

ThreeFx

Except
For
The
Big
One

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@NathanMerrill it would become broad as there are infinite possible 0 byte solutions. IT is an FGITW competition

Dennis

9:38 PM

@RohanJhunjhunwala Catalog questions don't have a special status.

Nathan Merrill

@RohanJhunjhunwala there are also infinite number of solutions to any other question. That doesn't make it broad

ColdGolf

@Dennis Speaking of MGS, the standard hello-world question explicitly allowed 0 byte solutions.

trichoplax

@ThreeFx Wow that's even weirder than it seemed before...

Conor O'Brien

@El'endiaStarman @Geobits @Sp3000 @trichoplax @xnor I don't know if you've been pinged already, but I just wanted to express my gratitude. Thank you for stepping in to a job that isn't always a walk in the park. I wish you the best of luck, and thanks for helping this room become a better place.

14

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Dennis I only mention it, because it could be argued (not by me) that catalog questions allow interpreters created after the posting of the challenge. Thus someone could create a MGS interpreter for the relevant language

Downgoat

9:39 PM

@Dennis why do trichoplax and El'endia need to be ROs if they're already mods?

Conor O'Brien

by the stars, I can only assume that I'm not too late :D

Dennis

@NathanMerrill There's an infinitude of MGS-like languages, and absolutely no need to allow all of them in a challenge.

ThreeFx

I literally have no idea why this happens (first time I used it in the literal sense I think)

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@NathanMerrill My argument is not that there exists an infinite number of solutions, but an infinite number of valid submissions which are each only 0 bytes

ColdGolf

@Dennis The standard hello-world question explicitly allowed 0 byte solutions, and joke languages. This includes MGS too, but MGS isn't allowed. Is this okay?

trichoplax

9:40 PM

@ConorO'Brien Thank you! Since we're dealing with the grey areas outside standard flags and offensiveness, please let us know anything we're missing :)

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

:)

Downgoat

@ConorO'Brien I think u meant to doing SP instead of Sherlock

Conor O'Brien

oops

@Dennis could you mod edit s/Sherlock9/Sp3000/

I did @S + tab without looking :P

Downgoat

@ConorO'Brien s/mod edit/eleven :P

ColdGolf

@ConorO'Brien Dennis won't RO anybody else.

Nathan Merrill

9:42 PM

I agree that there would an infinite amount of possible solutions/languages, but I don't think that that is what we mean when we say "broad"

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@trichoplax is a recreational programming question (or even a general one) considered on topic here?

trichoplax

@RohanJhunjhunwala I'm interested to see solutions from languages released after the challenge (as long as they're marked non-competing) but that's very different from solutions from languages designed for that specific challenge. I'd flag those whether marked as non-competing or not

DJMcMayhem

@NathanMerrill I think the difference is that each of these infinite solutions could win.

Downgoat

@RohanJhunjhunwala meaning?

Conor O'Brien

@Sherlock9 sorry for the ping, I mis-pinged ya ;D

DJMcMayhem

9:43 PM

@RohanJhunjhunwala Yes, absolutely (assuming you mean in chat, not main)

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat like please help me create a brainf*** interpreter. Or hey, can you help me debug cheddar. I think they should be on topic, but the chatiquette says dont ask "homework questions"

ok @DJMcMayhem thank you

Conor O'Brien

wrong room @Rohan

Nathan Merrill

@DJMcMayhem so? lets say I made a family of languages that did character-for-character replacement on Jelly. There'd be an infinite number of solutions that could win (assuming Jelly had the best program), but they'd be valid (except for the "must exist after the challenge date")

Luis Mendo

@Rohan Somel languages have their own chat toom

Downgoat

@RohanJhunjhunwala those are usually fine but don't ask "Hey problem 1 on my homework is fine prime number in Java pls writ coed for me" room specific rooms work too

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

9:45 PM

@Downgoat yeah sure, I wont treat tnb like my personal code-monkeys, but more quick quetions relevant to programming

ThreeFx

coed 😏

DJMcMayhem

@NathanMerrill Yeah, but jelly still has to be the shortest. In this case, mgs does not. Plus, I would consider each of those a duplicate

trichoplax

@RohanJhunjhunwala From most people it's an interesting question and clearly isn't handing out tasks, but inviting discussion. The fact that you ask beforehand suggests you won't be one of the problem ones :)

DJMcMayhem

Sorry, the golfscript does not, that's what I meant

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

Thanks :)

ColdGolf

9:46 PM

@DJMcMayhem MGS isn't allowed anyways. Unless your challenge explicitly allows it, in which case, get ready for the downvotes.

DJMcMayhem

@ColdGolf I'm not arguing for it, I'm arguing against it. And that's literally exactly what I told you

Nathan Merrill

@DJMcMayhem I still feel like allowing MGS on a challenge isn't close-worthy, but lets hope we never end up needing to figure it out

ColdGolf

@DJMcMayhem Well, it wasn't clear...

Geobits

So as one of my first official acts as room owner, I'm going to Universal Studios for the weekend. I'll be in and out.

Nathan Merrill

lol

DJMcMayhem

9:49 PM

@NathanMerrill Agreed. :)

ColdGolf

They'll close vote it anyways.

The exceptions I can think of are the standard [tag:hello-world] question, which wasn't close voted.

DJMcMayhem

@ColdGolf that question does not allow MGS

ColdGolf

@DJMcMayhem It explicitly allows zero byte solutions and joke languages, because it was designed as a fun, not serious question.

That means it allows MGS, but only because it wasn't meant as a serious question in the first place.

In real questions, MGS is forbidden.

Dennis

@ConorO'Brien eleven'd Sorry for the additional pings everyone.

Conor O'Brien

thanks :)

DJMcMayhem

9:54 PM

@ColdGolf zero byte solutions and joke languages are allowed on every challenge. That one is just as serious as any other, and none of them allow loop holes.

flawr

@El'endiaStarman Are you actually allowed to drive cars?

ColdGolf

@DJMcMayhem Every challenge? Watch out for the downvotes.

Joke languages aren't allowed because they don't always have a working interpreter, or even any interpreter at all.

DJMcMayhem

237

A: "Hello, World!"

Stuck, 0 bytes Well, can't get shorter than that... An empty program will output Hello, World! in Stuck

Clearly

ColdGolf

Stuck isn't a joke language.

ThreeFx

ninja'd

DJMcMayhem

9:55 PM

It's a zero byte solution though

ColdGolf

Stuck has no working interpreter, so it's disallowed.

DJMcMayhem

113

A: "Hello, World!"

ArnoldC, 71 bytes IT'S SHOWTIME TALK TO THE HAND "Hello, World!" YOU HAVE BEEN TERMINATED Just for lols..

That's a joke language

ColdGolf

ArnoldC is a joke language but does have a working interpreter. Stuck doesn't.

flawr

@ColdGolf github.com/kade-robertson/stuck

Luis Mendo

What is the meaning given in this chatroom to the verb "eleven", exactly?

Adnan

9:56 PM

@LuisMendo mod abuse

DJMcMayhem

This a pointless and stupid argument.

ColdGolf

@flawr You win.

Nathan Merrill

@flawr that actually begs a question: why do some state disallow headphones, but allow deaf people to drive?

flawr

@LuisMendo When it is not quite twelving

Luis Mendo

@Adnan ...more specifically?

@flawr I should have seen that coming :-)

Nathan Merrill

9:57 PM

states*

trichoplax

@ColdGolf Stuck interpreter available at the bottom of the esolangs page

Dennis

@Downgoat Being a room owner grants a few additional powers, but I don't think any of them is relevant for The Nineteenth Byte. Nevertheless, we wanted to make sure they felt comfortable moderating this room, even though they got their diamonds from other SE sites.

ColdGolf

@trichoplax Is the general idea worthy of a question on meta?

flawr

@NathanMerrill Deaf people are used to being deaf, while hearing people aren't.

trichoplax

@ColdGolf Which general idea are we on now? Interpreters or MGS?

flawr

9:58 PM

@NathanMerrill Similarly some (literally) un-armed people are allowed to drive with their legs/feet only, while armed people are not.

Nathan Merrill

@flawr that's actually a really good argument

Adnan

@LuisMendo Like editing chat messages, closing challenges etc.

Nathan Merrill

I'm quite glad my state allows it though

Adnan

Not sure though :p

ColdGolf

@trichoplax My question is "Imagine a language follows all ppcg's rules for being a programming language, but it has no working, valid interpreter or compiler at the time of posting the answer. Are those kinds of answers allowed?"

trichoplax

9:59 PM

I expect over the next few decades this will be balanced, and no one in any country will be allowed to drive

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