The Nineteenth Byte - 2016-08-25 (page 10 of 11)

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El'endia Starman

10:00 PM

@RohanJhunjhunwala I personally would just go ahead and implement that graphical output feature, since your language shouldn't be dependent on TIO. That said, I think Dennis does have plans to implement support for graphical output eventually.

@EamonOlive I haven't read through it in detail, but it looks fairly hard. But since it's been voted on well and not closed, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

You could offer a bounty if you really want an answer (but you'd end up losing rep, so it's up to you)

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@El'endiaStarman ok, I'll just add a switch where if the program is being run through TIO it will disable graphical output, (I already d othis with a lot of interactive input features)

@RohanJhunjhunwala I remember he said something about that, though El'endia did ninja me considerably

@DJMcMayhem thanks! I am working on a Brain-Flak solution. It is decently doable but It will probably be about ~40,000 bytes.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@ConorO'Brien ok thanks! Time to figure out how to support graphical output for SIL, (and then code super mario brothers in it))

@EamonOlive Try to get it under 30k so you can post it without a pastebin. How do you code in brain-flak? Macro System?

10:04 PM

@RohanJhunjhunwala I will make it as short as I can. I use nano and vim.

@EamonOlive that's insane, hahaha

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@EamonOlive thats impressive

@EamonOlive I could never hand type 40-k of brain-flak

You're certainly much better at brainflak than I am

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

Heck I cant type out 40 k of my own language

@RohanJhunjhunwala well I haven't done it yet

I'm only 10k characters in

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

10:06 PM

@EamonOlive whats the most impressive Brain Flak code you think you've made?

@EamonOlive ._. If it's really impressive I'll put a bounty on it

@RohanJhunjhunwala I like my modulo

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@EamonOlive could you link me to it?

@RohanJhunjhunwala here: (<({}<>)>)<>{({}[()])<>(({}()[({})])){{}(<({}({}))>)}{}<>}{}<>({}<{}><>)

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

Oh thats actually pretty short

10:08 PM

It is really well golfed If I do say so myself

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

Is it shorter than brainf***?

(If there was a competing bf solution)

@DJMcMayhem btw +1 for sfw naming

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

sfw?

as opposed to nsfw: "safe for work"

Releasing Helium Nuclei

safe for work

ninja'd :(

10:09 PM

@RohanJhunjhunwala no, over all it's much longer than bf

@ConorO'Brien haha, that's not why I picked it. I picked it cause it sounds like flak-overstow

@DJMcMayhem speak of which, 1000000000 and I have drawn up the specs for a brainflak encoding that should make brainflak rather competative

@DJMcMayhem oh, ik. I just don't like nsfw lang names, so +1 for being close to it but not being such

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

I dislike brainf*** heavily because its "not safe for work". It's an interesting language, but the f bomb makes it hard to discusss

Reminds me of Flakka

which is some really nasty stuff

@RohanJhunjhunwala indeed.

10:12 PM

@EamonOlive really? Is it 3-bit, e.g. bit-flak?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@EamonOlive I still am unsure what the inputs and outputs should be?

@DJMcMayhem overalll I feel that certain commands will ikely have higher frequency (You may be able to (ab)use that for compressing)

@DJMcMayhem Its better its 3-bit plus a bunch of optimizations to make it even more terse

@RohanJhunjhunwala inputs to what?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

user image

@EamonOlive do you know what the reply button is?

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Ah, I do now thanks

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

kk

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

10:17 PM

@EamonOlive your challenge

@EamonOlive can you give some sample input and output pairs?

@RohanJhunjhunwala {(8,4),(4,2),(4,6)}

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

Ok, (Must be in that string format?)

@RohanJhunjhunwala =>{[8,4,6,2],[8,4,2,6]}

\o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ got into AP comp sci :D

@RohanJhunjhunwala No {...} is an unordered container, [...] is an ordered container

10:19 PM

@Downgoat congrats

@Downgoat ap?

@RohanJhunjhunwala I call it BF just to avoid the language name, and I think people understand what I mean when I say it.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat you are forced into liking Java if you take AP Compsci...

@Downgoat nice! but ._. because you got in before me

@flawr advanced placement

i.e. college course in high school

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@StevenH. usually, it works

10:21 PM

@StevenH. assuming they know the language

@RohanJhunjhunwala yes i know. teacher was pressing me if i know java, and I'm like, "I'm faimilar with it" (basically just the cramming i did last night)

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat lol... Don't worry you'll likely ace it

but i dont know java ;__;

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat they teach you through the course

I hear a large part of AP comp sci is theory anyhow

10:22 PM

Tecaher also hates JS ;_;

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

JS is the shadiest thing I've ever seen

I'm usually talking to people that do know of it, so that's not an issue.

@Downgoat like, he told you that? o_o

she think its a language only dumb people use ;_;

@RohanJhunjhunwala I'm sure you've seen shadier.

10:22 PM

@RohanJhunjhunwala Have you ever seen ShadyAsFuck?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@flawr yeah

@Downgoat give me her email and I will correct her. clenched fist of justice

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@flawr the brainf*** encoding

(not to be confused with ShadyAssFuck)

@ConorO'Brien no not really but she's like JS is not "real" programming language

10:23 PM

@flawr O_o

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat it surely is a "real" programming language (as opposed to Scratch)

@Downgoat then she just doesn't like scripting languages, and that's her problem if she has a boilerplate fetish :P

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat it just has some questionable constructs...

@ConorO'Brien anguyen@srvusd.net

@Downgoat wait seriously

that's it?

makes alt email account

10:24 PM

@RohanJhunjhunwala there is actually scratch class at my school

@ConorO'Brien yeah

cool

There's one at mine too, and it's a university .-.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat ಠ_ಠ

@StevenH. .___________.

On a brighter topic: I'm discovering a new somewhat literary side of Haskell today. fromEnum.succ.last.show$()

10:26 PM

But it's a variation that allows for raw JS to be included as a block which makes it infinitely better

length Nothing

@StevenH. nice!

cs10.org/fa16

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat empty array + empty object returns not a number

@Downgoat but the other way around it returns [Object object]

@RohanJhunjhunwala we have gone over this before but its ont that crazy

question: difference between InputStreamReader and BufferedReader?

god Java is verbose AF

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

10:28 PM

@Downgoat sorry I must have missed that chat discussion. But why do you agree with that feature? (Just trying to see a couple persepectives on the type system)

@Downgoat I'm not sure, I would have to direct you to the java docs

But java is verbose :( too much boiler plate

@RohanJhunjhunwala its part of the implicit casting. It's actually pretty rational implicit casting when you think about it

@RohanJhunjhunwala not just the boiler plate. WHY DO I NEED 5 LIBRARIES TO READ FROM STDIN

@Downgoat using email concernedjavascriptuser@gmail.com

k

btw dont mention me

I won't

i dont wanna get kicked out of class

10:29 PM

does she read this chat

@RohanJhunjhunwala Yes, I mentioned that yesterday or the day before. It doesn't have very high priority (for now, I want to get the stuff done I need to launch v2), but it's planned. I'll probably include a PPM to PNG converter, which should enable almost all languages to show graphical output.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat you only need one library

@RohanJhunjhunwala realy?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat new java.util.Scanner(System.in).nextLine();//returns the next line typed into stdin

how do i read text piped to stdin?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

10:30 PM

@Dennis ok, thanks! Sorry i Missed that in the transcript.

is java library included by default?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat in a way...

._. meaning?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat usually you import java.util.* and then use new Scanner();

@mınxomaτ Unless you use openSUSE, which by default asks for the password of the target user.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

10:32 PM

@Downgoat without the import you just have to use the more verbose invocation... new java.util.Scanner(System.in);

@RohanJhunjhunwala can i do like import Scanner from java.util.*?

@RohanJhunjhunwala for goat: less verbose == happier goat

4

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat its not python... just type import java.util.* and you're set

@ConorO'Brien wait

dont send it

If you're doing this for a class I wouldn't import java.util.*. Most people would want to see each class import for schoolwork.

okay

why

10:32 PM

shell probably think its be, because who else would send angry message regarding JS distaste

import java.util.Scanner works

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

^

@Downgoat oh, hm

true

@StevenH. shouldn't Scanner be capitalized?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Geobits yeah, my IDE usually handles my imports for me

10:33 PM

> Hello.

It has been brought to my attention that you have an unfavorable and unreasonable regard to the language called "JavaScript". JavaScript is, in fact, a very real language. It has its uses, strengths, and, of course, it's disadvantages.

It may be the case that you are simply unaware of JavaScript. If so, here are some quick facts:

The email that was never sent

@Geobits ,what does that mean

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat yes it should be

@RohanJhunjhunwala ah ok

My typing skills are on point today @Downgoat

@ConorO'Brien Klingon is a "real language" too, but that's no reason to use it :P

2

10:33 PM

question: what is your favorite java ide?

11 mins ago, by Downgoat

@ConorO'Brien no not really but she's like JS is not "real" programming language

I'm only responding to that.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat NetBeans personally, but your class may use Eclipse

Please, this is getting old

-.-

I use Eclipse mostly but I love Netbeans

@Downgoat I mean they probably want to see import java.util.Scanner instead of importing the whole thing "blindly".

10:35 PM

> If so, here are some quick facts:

WHAT WERE THE FACTS :_:

eclipse is so complex tho ;_;

Mostly Eclipse. Netbeans is nice, too though.

I'm on eclipse website, how to download?

is it eclipse neon?

Hmm. Last time I did it was with apt-get IIRC.

@StevenH. message was aborted.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

10:36 PM

@Geobits the issue is my IDE isn't "blind" with imports (it imports each class individually), so the top of one of my longer classes looks like this (with some imports not used (auto-imported for now deleted code))
import java.awt.Color;
import java.awt.Dimension;
import java.awt.Font;
import java.awt.Graphics;
import java.awt.Toolkit;
import java.awt.image.BufferedImage;
import java.io.File;
import java.io.IOException;
import java.util.ArrayList;
import java.util.ConcurrentModificationException;

@Geobits I would totally take a Klingon class if my school offered one.

3

it's probably better than english :P

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Doorknob 10/10 seems like an incredibly useful, powerful language...

@RohanJhunjhunwala Yeah, but I just mean that in school that's probably what they'd rather see.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Geobits I don't disagree

10:37 PM

@RohanJhunjhunwala It's got an awesome phonlogy, though.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Geobits I think for learning it is good to show that you know what library you are using. (I'm just pointing out the madness that follows)

@Doorknob I would never doubt that. Then again, it's not like lojban is any better.

@Geobits .i'e nai sai

@RohanJhunjhunwala Oh sure. I usually just let my IDE handle it, though. It folds all the imports anyway, so I don't see them.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Geobits eclipse?

10:39 PM

question: What are .jar files? Google is telling me they store metadata about a program but that's not very telling :/ Do I need to make Jar files or does IDE do that?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Geobits should I use it? I've heard its buggy.

I think all the major ones do, no?

@Downgoat IDE does it

@RohanJhunjhunwala I don't have problems with it. Until I do.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat netbeans automagically does it. A jar file contains all of your code, in a .class format

10:39 PM

if I don't use IDE do I still need to worry aobut jar files?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat yes

:( seems complicated

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat you need a class path and stuff like that

@Downgoat for AP CS most of your projects are only one class

@Downgoat .JAR files are basically zips that store information about e.g. the main class, how to run it, all of the data concerning what's included in the program, class files, etc

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat you can run them with just

java Goat.java

10:40 PM

IMO you're better off using an IDE, makes everything easier

@RohanJhunjhunwala so does this mean large Java applications can only be rationallly created in an IDE?

creating binary files seems very very difficult

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat generally, IDE's provide lots of useful debugging information.

There are command line tools to do all of this. It's just generally easier with an IDE.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat as well as a lot of assistance in distributing the code

Creating the class files yourself is entirely feasible, though. It's just not one click like in IDEs

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

10:41 PM

@Downgoat I guess it would be similar to "linking" in C if im not mistaken

hm ok

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

Sorry for the mountain of pings

its OK. I'm not sensitive about pings unlike some people

In other news, I no longer have to worry about a job; I get to go back to school!

omg why does java have so many things this is scaring me

what is JRE

10:45 PM

java runtime environment

wait, how does it differ from JVM?

JAR, class, JRE, JVM, jar <- WHY DO I NEED ALL OF THIS TO MAKE HELLO WORLD ;_;

8

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat use SILOS

@Downgoat print Hello, World!

@RohanJhunjhunwala is it object oriented?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat not yet

Use OOP Python

10:47 PM

can't teacher loves java

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@StevenH. isnt python already OOP

@RohanJhunjhunwala barely

Releasing Helium Nuclei

main(){puts("Hello, World!");}
echo "Hello, World!"
print("Hello, World!")

better languages

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

oh ok, I'm not too familiar with python.

ok ide is scaring me even more now

10:48 PM

OOP is just a programming style

what do all these buttons do

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

Screenie?

what is package wat

You only mess with like five of them

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

package is a way to organise a project

10:48 PM

Packages are folders for Java code

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

I usually put everything in one package

^

You can separate everything, but it's only rarely worth it for school projects

unless they'll last more than a semester

> The use of the default package is discouraged.

huh?

Ignore that

ok

Releasing Helium Nuclei

10:49 PM

any CMC?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@ReleasingHeliumNuclei yes please parse arbitary html with regex (and then solve the halting problem). In any order you wish. (Code Golf)

> CMC: Modify the BF self-interpreter to run Self-Modifying Brainfuck

Releasing Helium Nuclei

@RohanJhunjhunwala ;_;

CMC: given integers N and M, output [1, M] map { element -> N^element }

:O :O :O :O :O :O I made Hello World!!!!!

GAOT IS GENIUS

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

10:51 PM

@Downgoat the IDE is telling you to avoid putting classes into the "default package" to keep it more organised everything should neatly sit in a folder

@Downgoat GAOT cant spell goat right...

@RohanJhunjhunwala is this "package" thing it's telling me about like the package goat; thing

@ConorO'Brien test cases pls

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat yes

@EamonOlive I'm not really sure how I feel about that. I certainly wouldn't stop you, but brain flak isn't really intended to be competitive, so it seems kinda silly to make it golfier. IMO the whole appeal of brainflak (and bf for that matter) is that it's novel and challenging, so it forces you to think in new ways.

@Adnan N = 2, M = 5 => [2^0, 2^1, 2^2, ..., 2^5]

10:52 PM

user image

do u even use half of these things

Although, like I said, I certainly wouldn't stop you (although it shouldn't go on the main branch)

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

Yes

@DJMcMayhem Its more of a thought experiment than a actual idea

@ConorO'Brien 05AB1E: Ým

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat it'll start to make sense

10:53 PM

@DJMcMayhem Its going in its own repository.

@Adnan nice

@EamonOlive oic, so it's not a new language designed to make bf shorter, just compressing bf code? I suppose that's different

@DJMcMayhem It is an entirely new language with the rules of brain-flak

@RohanJhunjhunwala ok. question: so in Java everything is in a seperate file including enums?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat generally yes

@Downgoat it's best practice

10:56 PM

@RohanJhunjhunwala one more question: how does java know where my public static void main is. what happens when i have more than one

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat try it, it'll break the code. Only one entry point is allowed

@Downgoat almost like C,

@DJMcMayhem There are a couple of changes to save space. For instance you cannot open a < inside of a <. But for the most part it is just another encoding that saves space.

*per class

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

^

@RohanJhunjhunwala ah ok

one last question: can i have a method of a class declared outside of the class's file? e.g.:

10:58 PM

Eww no

wait wat

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat the first class you make automagically will start as the "main class" and should have a template with a main method.

my .class will be giant then ._.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Geobits anonymous classses with implementaations somewhere else?

@Geobits so I will have to define an entire namespace in one file???

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

10:59 PM

@Downgoat explain?

A namespace is not a class

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat you can call other methods from other classes

@Geobits okay well i also want to ask about namespace

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