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1:00 PM
Ye olde English
1:19 PM
CMC: post a challenge in main
Is the sandbox bot still alive?
I think so
@Mego Time to add more operators that operate on functions? You've only got a handful of them iirc.
@LeakyNun I was thinking about the "ch" sound the other day. Indonesian and Malay write the "ch" with 'c', "s" with "s" and "k" with "k". I think we even apply this to transliterating loan words.
Makes figuring out the approximate pronunciation much simpler
@Sherlock9 I am on mobile; which message are you replying to?
I guess I'll post this anyway since the bot's not gonna do it if I don't. meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/9893/30164
1:22 PM
It makes sense to write the loan words with Malay orthography
waits for instant bot post in 2 seconds
CMC: Get banned from Stack Exchange
The one about 'ç is "ch" in your language?'
ığüşiöç we have beautiful letters
Is that a word?
1:24 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Pietu1998 My questions: Is this a duplicate or a superset of something? Basically, it's about sorting logical expressions based on the combinations that make it truthy. It's definitely related to my other question, but this one is a lot more complicated in processing the array while allowing for...

^ not ded
But bloody slow
@βετѧΛєҫαγ just a list of interesting letters
we dont have qwx
@LeakyNun We try to keep "q"s when they turn up in Arabic loanwords. I think it goes to "k" otherwise, though I'm not entirely sure
@Sherlock9 I see
1:27 PM
So when does PPCG get its own theme? AFAIK nothing has changed since we graduated.
I may also have it backwards, where we switch "k" more than we keep "q"s. I don't know the stats
@Sherlock9 we use â î û, but only for the words we borrowed from arabic
@Sherlock9 you do know the difference between k and q right
@βετѧΛєҫαγ you might want to read the MSE post on design independent graduation
@LeakyNun Not entirely. Care to explain?
1:29 PM
@Sherlock9 well, I meant /k/ and /q/. The arabic "q" is /q/
@Quill Where would I find it?
uvular stop iirc
Oh, man, am I embarrassed ... :-/ ... completely misread Helka's challenge about printing the 95 ASCII characters.
@βετѧΛєҫαγ We don't have "Beta" after our name
1:30 PM
@TimmyD Hehe completely is right :D
Q: Design-Independent Graduation is on for early September!

AnaThis is a follow-up to an earlier discussion Feedback Requested: Design-Independent Graduation. Like the title says, design-independent graduation will go into effect and become our new regular practice the second week of September! All sites which have been waiting in the backlog to graduate w...

yay i got it right
Ohh I see
Damn, I don't want to lose my privileges...
You'll just need 25k rep, that's not so hard right?
@βετѧΛєҫαγ -15 wat
1:32 PM
@LeakyNun Fair enough, but I'm pretty sure the transliteration of the sound /q/ to /k/ happens anyway in Indonesian
@BusinessCat Haha nah, I could raise that overnight ;)
@Sherlock9 Sure. Not many languages have /q/
Well, quite a handful of languages have /q/, but not the ones I've heard of
except Arabic
1:35 PM
I wonder if any SE employees have gold tag badge on Meta SE :P
Ah, Jeff does. Ha
@Sherlock9 Do you know that our alphabet descends from the Semitic alphabet so we share ancestor with Arabic etc
I remember that the Latin alphabet goes back to the Phoenicians but that Arabic script is related sounds plausible
The Arabic script also goes back to the phoenicians
Also, do you know that the phoenicians stem from the egyptian hieroglyphs
and the vowels are from the consonants
because they didnt have vowels
Except the letter "o" which is just the mouth shape
a is from aleph, the glottal stop
u is from waw, the /w/ sound
i is from yod, the /j/ sound
I forgot where e comes from
@Sherlock9 This gets more interesting:
Y was the uppercase of "u" in Greek, and the Romans made them into two letters; then in the Roman's "dialect" of the Latin script, V was the uppercase of u, and then we made them two letters; also, "w" is just "double-u" (its name is double-u also)
but the name of "y" in many languages is "the Greek i" but "i" actually is from yod
and in greek the uppercase of v is N, so overall it's a mess
@Fatalize "v" seems to be a reasonable simplification of "N" if you write it with one stroke from the bottom left
Old Turkish didnt have vowels too
it didnt have j v f too
You know, earlier when people were complaining about pronunciation i try so hard to refrain myself from explaining how they make sense lol
2:01 PM
vowels were wrote if they needed to be. for example betseg would be like soft g-soft t-soft s-e-soft b
a ı o u are hard, e i ö ü are soft
soft g-soft s-soft t-e-soft b sorry
a and e are same letter, ı and i, o-u-ö-ü are same letter. complicated
TIL I can type ı on my keyboard
ȷ too
i wonder if this font supports this:
yes it does
@ReleasingHeliumNuclei You can change font here?
@LeakyNun i meant the font that used here, which are verdana and arial, but probably changed to some other fonts by my linux system, since linux doesnt have them
se should switch to some webfonts
from what I see "fi" there is no ligature
2:16 PM
lel my font has
probably the sans-serif on browser settings, which is Roboto
@ReleasingHeliumNuclei Install the windows ttf package for your system and then set them in the advanced font options (assuming you're running chrom{e/ium}).
nah i like them open source fonts
You should get the MS TTF fonts
I would much rather be able to read things than be able to brag about how purist I am
especially considering they're fonts not programs
i lyk open source
2:24 PM
I currently use Noto Sans/Serif and Input Mono for my chrome fonts.
btw did you ever read some roboto, roboto slab, linux liberation
What the actual fuck, why does this code print 9:
Because undefined behavior?
i would expect 6
@quartata of evaluation order? No evaluation order would bring 9
2:25 PM
What do you mean "of what". Of the program.
which behavior is undefined
a is not really defined
what, a is 1
This prints 1\n9
2:28 PM
Don't tell me it evaluates the two instances of ++ first
main(a){a=++a*++a;printf("%d",a);} is also 9
so the only possibility is that the ++ are evaluated first
and then the a is taken twice
oooh right it is
which makes no sense ever
It doesn't matter how it ended up there. Literally any behavior is valid.
2:29 PM
in Java it would have been 6 right (haven't tested)
@ReleasingHeliumNuclei but operator precendence =/= evaluation order
@LeakyNun idk, it just looks undefined to me
@DJMcMayhem java must be 6
just that i haven't tested it
Q: Why are these constructs (using ++) undefined behavior?

PiXint main(int argc, char ** argv) { int i = 0; i = i++ + ++i; printf("%d\n", i); // 3 i = 1; i = (i++); printf("%d\n", i); // 2 Should be 1, no ? volatile int u = 0; u = u++ + ++u; printf("%d\n", u); // 1 u = 1; u = (u++); printf("%d\n", u); // 2 Should also ...

@LeakyNun What happens if you do (++a) * (++a)?
2:34 PM
@DJMcMayhem same, but thanks
Have you tried other compilers?
@LeakyNun It's definitely UB cause this one prints 2
Doesn't ++a means increment first, and then use?
yup it should be
2:41 PM
Oh, whoops I got the order wrong. It still gives 9
Although it does warn about UB
oh ninja'd
it does in my link
All three standards give 9
@LeakyNun you should SO it
@DJMcMayhem it's already SO'd above right
Now how the fuck does this give 4:
While this also gives 4:
there is a nice saying for this
2:45 PM
Screw increments and pick a nicer language?
like java
Define "nice"
Good point
Try using something more high level, like brainfuck
1 min ago, by Sherlock9
Good point
2:47 PM
I don't care, just come up with any explanation
@Sherlock9 Right now you're making the podcast scheduling a bit complicated :D. Do you maybe have any day where you could make somewhere from 0000 to 0300 UTC work?
Ooh, 00-03, that's the time I was hoping for. :D
I am nowhere near awake at 7 am
Which is 0000 UTC
I understand how and why time zones work, but they still blow my mind to think about it.
Hm. How about anywhere from 1100 to 2300 on a Saturday?
2:51 PM
@mınxomaτ timezone?
There is a chance for Monday before class, Thursday, or Saturday before class, but I do want to sleep in at some point and especially when getting ready for class already takes me a while
Saturday is completely unsure because I want to travel home at some point
@DJMcMayhem Yeah, by the way: Are you sure you announced the correct days for your times? I.e. respecting that UTC might be a day later (or the other way). Just seems a bit odd.
@LeakyNun UTC, always.
11 is way to early for me. It would have to be at least 13
there is a podcast?
@mınxomaτ I'm pretty sure, but it confused me also. I'm free Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday evenings (for me) which is the next morning in UTC
2:53 PM
@mınxomaτ Yes. All of the times I listed are in the afternoon for me. Saturday 1100 to 2300 is possible but will be subject to high variation
@Sherlock9 I'll take high variation over asleep :D
But don't put that time down just now, I'm still calculating.
What's the name of the word layout where the acronym is spelled out. Meaning like --
Don't worry about it. My semester is just starting and it can take an entire month for the schedule to settle down while the professors work out their own schedules
@ReleasingHeliumNuclei Yes
2:55 PM
@mınxomaτ I do not envy you. Scheduling is hard enough with my friends who live in the same city, I can only imagine trying to schedule something global, with a bunch of people that don't know each other in person.
@DJMcMayhem Eve more so, because a few of us are across the pond. And we require sleep at some point.
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ good morning!
But it doesn't have to be an acronym, so you can have off-balance words.
good evening!
2:57 PM
@mınxomaτ yeah, I know. Are most of the responders so far centered around a particular area? I know there's lots of people from the US who've responded. (Me, easterly, alex, probably others)
@DJMcMayhem i omitted good for a reason
@DJMcMayhem It's about 50% US and 50% all over.
@DJMcMayhem That's why I liked a chat I used be in "Late Night Skype". It was late for the UK and very late in the night for the UK, but early afternoon in my timezone
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ oh, OK. Standard morning. :D
Kinda like a Jumble, but more generic name.
I also have a roadshow for my company for the next few weeks starting two days from now. When that's finished the schedule of at least two "applicants" will have changed completely. So don't expect any actual dates until end of September (cues Green Day song)
@TimmyD Acrostic?
@Sp3000 Yes! Thank-you!
bah. I got a downvote without a comment on meta.
3:03 PM
@mınxomaτ Good lord, I hope October 1st passes quickly for Green Day. Every year a bunch of nuts on Twitter message them to wake up, not knowing that the dang song is about the lead singer's father's death
@NathanMerrill hey, at least it doesn't cost any rep
But on meta, it makes little sense. I want to know why you disagree
that's the entire purpose of the site
IMO largest output could be problematic because busy beaver-type challenges are hard to get the speech right for, and I wouldn't expect many challenges in that category
Smallest output might be okay, but we'd have to think of what to do about the overlap with metagolf
there wouldn't be a lot of busy beaver challenges, but there are quite a few largest-output, IIRC
with metagolf, if the scoring criterion is solely based on the size of the final program, then it would be smallest-output
if its the size of the first program its code-golf
if its anything else, its code-challenge
3:10 PM
So... Would that mean we'd have to get rid of the metagolf tag or...?
no, metagolf is still a great tag, but it isn't a scoring tag
...or maybe it is
... it is, right?
yeah, I didn't think it was
I still think if becomes a tag, then metagolf becomes a theme tag, and not a scoring tag
because its definitely a smallest-output
I'll add that to the post
Re largest output: I think I get the intention (esp with the uniquely separated pixels example) but I get the feeling its application might get a bit... broad (It sounds like a catch all for maximisation problems). Misunderstood at first and thought it meant most bytes output
how is that any different than ?
a maximization vs minimization problems
3:17 PM
Well I thought smallest output meant in terms of bytes too, but if that's not the case then that doesn't sound great either
I agree that the two tags are broad in terms of scope. However, I don't really see a huge problem with that. Fundamentally, the OP needs to define a countable "chunk", and your score is the number of chunks you produce
@Fatalize Pulled.
@Mego Seriously?
The problem I see is that 1) there's no logical reason to split max from min and 2) barring mixed scoring, broad maximisation/minimisation tags would be little different from how code challenge is currently used
1) Simply to make scoring clearer, and more well-defined. I agree that the challenge types are very similar.
2) code-challenge has quite a few of other challenge types as well (see the question above), and I think it makes sense to give them a better-named tag
Yeah, but a max is just the min of the complementary problem, eg max flow <-> min cut, so the tagging would be somewhat arbitrary
(which question above?)
3:24 PM
the question I answered
The accuracy challenges, for example, is a totally different type of challenge
@Sp3000 sometimes challenges can be trivially changed from min to max, but other challenges, only one really works. That said, I agree that they are very similar, but I can't come up with a word that means "You want to minimize or maximize your output"
lol, sounds like a sport
like golf :)
I feel like my problem is less to do with the tag concept and more to do with the fact that "largest output" doesn't seem to convey what you mean to me
Gah, I forgot to plug in my laptop's charger and it ran out of battery while assembling the tree overnight
Oooh, that sucks. The tree for just one day or more of the transcript?
3:30 PM
The whole transcript
Oh wow, it parsed pretty fast, huh?
I agree. I spent quite a while looking for another, and I'm not sure if one exists. The challenge really isn't about printing to the console, but "output" seems to imply that
Yeah the actual retrieval and parsing takes less than an hour
Making the tree will take about 2-4 I estimate
what tree is this?
How many bytes is the whole transcript if you remove HTML tags?
3:32 PM
@NathanMerrill A BK tree that makes searching for messages within a given Levenshtein distance easy.
@feersum Nineteen
Just a joke. Not sure actually.
I could add a debug statement
what's the memory requirements of a BK tree?
Should be O(n).
huh, that's cool
lemme think
3:34 PM
@feersum Within an order of magnitude of 69313306.
Oh, that's not too much.
The above includes HTML tags within messages.
It would be feasible to scan the whole thing each time you wanted to make a reply then.
Screw data structures!
@feersum Not for what I'm doing though
I also need to then scan for replies
Precalculating the replies ahead of time is much better
And I figured as long as I'm at it...
Sure, have an array of replies if you want.
3:35 PM
trivia: The 19th byte of this room is "r"
@feersum As long as I'm pickling something I might as well do it right
This isn't that hard
It's just a little slow to build
Of course if you're using Python you really wouldn't want to scan the whole thing because it's too slow.
@quartata Oh, speaking of which, you mentioned that Python's pickling of objects is really slow. Well, as far as I could tell, your Message object could quite easily be represented by a list or even a tuple, which would probably speed up pickling dramatically.
@quartata do you have experience hosting a non-dedicated tf2 server?
@El'endiaStarman It's not the speed it's the namespace issues
3:39 PM
@quartata Hmm, how do you mean?
I could do it as a tuple but eh
@El'endiaStarman If it's not in the namespace in the exact same way as it was relative to the originating module it won't work
So in the case of kbmaker I have to do from kbmaker import * so that Message is in the global namespace
It doesn't fully qualify the class
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Yes but listen servers are dumb
TF2DS is easy to set up
@quartata my goal would be to do 1v1 with sock or somebody, just for 15min maybe.
3:41 PM
Oh, OK.
Then you could make a listen server and use Hamachi
or a similar VPN
Print "hello world"
Made in 2 minutes in MSPaint. :P
Make Tetris in Conway's game of life
@El'endiaStarman Do you know an alternate for pickling for primitives (like json but json is slower than pickling)?
3:42 PM
Or just conciseness, for code golf :)
@El'endiaStarman Pretty much. I usually choose speed
hmmm, "solutions" does get confusing with "submissions"
@muddyfish No, I've pretty much never used pickling, and to boot, I don't like pickles either. :P
@quartata specifically is it possible to export a server from the map command?
3:42 PM
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Define "export"
@El'endiaStarman I don't like pickles either
Anyone can connect to a listen server
It's a matter of if you have the port open
Hence Hamachi
@quartata kk, i'll look into getting that set up
Hamachi is almost brain dead easy
Why would you use Hamachi? It breaks everything
3:44 PM
just set up port forwarding
That may not be an option for him
1. Create network 2. other person joins network 3. connect <your internal ip>:27015
user/password is prob admin/admin :)
it was for my router so I could set it up there
If you're on Linux by the way Haguichi is great interface to the shitty hamachid
oh I figured out why I got a downvote on my post: somebody downvoted every answer on that question
3:47 PM
Dec 13 '15 at 23:25, by El'endia Starman
I remember in 4th grade or so, a couple 5th graders figured out the BIOS password on a classroom computer... :P
Dec 13 '15 at 23:25, by El'endia Starman
Username: master; password: ****** (master).
@NathanMerrill Especially since there's a request to officially change "answers" to "solutions" sitewide. Is it worth discussing possible alternative names for PPCG answers?
@El'endiaStarman rip
What did they do with it?
In year 1, I discovered the username/password to the teacher accounts: teacher/teacher
@trichoplax so there's less ambiguity with a potential tag? seems silly
Actually I like the term answers
Just not the term questions
3:48 PM
@quartata Teacher told them to stop, so I don't think they did anything further.
I'm not a fan of the term "solution", as it doesn't always make sense (like with cops n robbers, KoTHs, or "build-off-the-last-one" challenges)
@NathanMerrill I agree it isn't worth it just for that reason, but I wondered whether the confusion could also arise when referring to answers (independently of the tag issue)
I do like "submissions"
That does seem more applicable to all the different challenge types
@El'endiaStarman Aw.
3:50 PM
@NathanMerrill "Entries" also comes to mind
An answer to a challenge seems fine to me
yeah, that works as well, but I'm not sure how many times historically, we've used "entry"
A submission to a challenge sounds kind of clunky
yeah, I'm ok with answers as well
3:51 PM
Sounds a bit more like a person though
Q: Java Asterisk Rectangle

Noah SherryFor my Computer Programming 2 class, my instructor has given us the assignment of creating a rectangle made of asterisks with diagonal lines drawn through it in Java. He also told us to write it in as few bytes as possible. I've gotten it down to 190 bytes, but I need to find a few to simplify th...

Did i beat the bot
Anyone can beat a bot
well, until the singularity
Hahaha, just about to mention that
3:58 PM
@FryAmTheEggman ninja'd
I'm going to remove mine though, because yours is better worded
@MartinEnder is tips for a single problem really not offtopic?
that seems pretty off-topic to me
It's not offtopic as far as I recall

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