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5:03 PM
TIL: About forty percent of all mammal species are rodents.
 
TIL: Timmy learned that about forty percent of all mammal species are rodents.
 
TIL: Nathan learned that Timmy learned that about forty percent of all mammal species are rodents.
 
TIL: 40% of recent TNB posts are about rodents
 
TIART: People in here have too much time on their hands.
3
 
I have enough time spare to ask what that stands for.
 
5:08 PM
Take It and Run Thursday.
 
today i am reminded that
 
Ah right
 
I like mine better.
 
Me too, tbh.
 
6 days early...
its time will come
 
5:09 PM
I thought it was "Today I already knew that", but know that I type that out, I realize it doesn't match the initials
 
Today I Already RKnew That ... the "R" is silent.
 
With a silent R.
 
I definitely did not go through seven acronyms before deciding on that one >_>
 
Well, that's good. Wouldn't want you to waste time.
 
Heaven forbid.
 
5:13 PM
No one here ever wastes time.
 
 
Pattern finding! No OEIS. 0, 1, 1, 3, 5, 9, 13, 27, 36, 73, 115
 
On my screen "Great minds waste time alike" is all on the second line so it doesn't split
 
Wait... nvm
On mine it's all on the first except the dash and name.
 
5:22 PM
Show off :P
 
The 13 -> 27 jump keeps messing up my pattern.
 
The 36 -> 73 is no better.
But they're both *2+1
 
Yeah it's awful - @CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ you need to change some of these numbers for us
 
It's not something egregiously esoteric, like "Number of cuboid solids that can be combined in n-dimensional space by drawing lines connecting their vertices" or something
Right?
 
5:24 PM
@TimmyD It's worse.
 
(ₒ_ₒ)ʷʰᵃᵗ
 
wait I may have copied it wrong
 
>_>
 
oh yup sure enough
 
5:25 PM
You mean I've been wasting my time working on the wrong time wasting??
4
 
vote as unclear
 
 
uhh sorry guys I concatenated two sequences from my sheet >_>
 
@Cyoce ==?
 
0, 1, 1, 3, 5, 9, 12, 20, 29, 43
^ that is the correct one
 
5:27 PM
@TimmyD that's what it thinks I'm trying to do, but it isn't
stupid jslint
 
Does that return n or 2?
 
2
 
Why are you assigning something in a return statement?
 
Hyperoptimisation
 
to avoid multiple lines
 
5:28 PM
Encapsulate in parens?
 
nope
I just changed it
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ This isn't better ... ._.
 
I looked it up. It is indeed not better.
 
a sequence of non-decreasing numbers
I won!
 
Not strictly increasing, though.
 
5:30 PM
@TimmyD It may be a tad esoteric, I'll give you a hint: σ
 
ninjedit-d
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ With this group, I can't tell if that's supposed to be an emoticon or a sigma for deviation. :D
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ I wouldn't call it "a tad esoteric". IMO it's more along the lines of "nobody is going to stumble upon this, ever".
 
does anyone know if we've done oeis.org/A052409 or something closely related?
 
5:32 PM
@Geobits Oh. :I
 
I think it would make a nice and fairly simple challenge that probably isn't killed directly by built-ins
 
@TimmyD Both σ_σ
 
Bad Martin. Conor said no OEIS
 
this is not related to Conor's sequence
 
5:32 PM
@MartinBüttner I'm not smart enough to understand that sequence, so I'm looking forward to your post
 
"Sad disapproval"
 
@MartinBüttner Most languages probably don't have builtins for it, but I'm guessing some golfing ones do. It's basically gcd(prime_factors(n)), right?
 
@NathanMerrill are we talking about the same sequence?
 
a(n)>1 iff n is a perfect power ... Interesting.
 
Oh wait it's the GCD of exponents. Hmm.
 
5:34 PM
@Geobits uh, prime factor counts, but yes
 
@MartinBüttner I'm no good at reading math
 
Yea, that's better. I'm not sure how gcd of primes would work well anyway ^^;
 
@NathanMerrill it's really just asking what is the largest power in n... perfect squares get 2 (provided they aren't also a higher power), perfect cubes get 3 (provided...) and so on.
 
Does offset 1,4 mean it is contained as a subset of itself by taking every fourth item?
 
5:36 PM
@MartinBüttner ah, ok
 
@Geobits return 1
 
wait, but 3*2^2 would get 2?
 
Apparently not. Ignore me...
 
@trichoplax no
it means the first term is a(1) and the fourth term is the first non-zero one
@NathanMerrill no it's not a perfect square
 
@TimmyD Golf that sucker down! I'm sure there's got to be some language that spits a 1 for the null program :P
 
5:38 PM
@NathanMerrill you only have a perfect square if you can write it as m^2 for integer m
 
ok
I was mixing up your statements and Geobits :P
if I take a number, and represent it as a list of prime powers, isn't there a name for that representation?
 
prime factorisation?
 
so, 24 = 2^3 * 3^1 -> [3,1]
 
oh right
 
no, there was some guy whose name is attached to that list
 
5:40 PM
So you'd have zeros in there for primes not present?
 
2D OEIS anyone?
:3
 
huh?
OEIS has loads of tables and triangles in it
if that's what you're suggesting
 
no, like f(x,y) => (x,y)'
instead of a(x) => x'
 
Aww, I thought you meant a grid where each row/column was an entry. Like a crossword puzzle.
 
5:46 PM
^ that would be cool, too
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ oh okay. how would you visualise that though if the values are also pairs?
 
:)
Just discovered auto-complete in Vim
 
@MartinBüttner Maybe with a graph?
uhh
 
bah, I hate it when I need to refactor all my code
 
5:48 PM
ugh about to do a bio test >_>
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Just had one of those they're awful
 
Good thing I've been dropping bio facts in here today. Good luck!
 
hmm, i thought the majority of mammal species were bats
 
More bats than everything else put together?
 
5:51 PM
eh, only 20%
 
That's still quite a lot
 
Just think of bats as rodents with wings then >_>
 
rodents are indeed double that
 
the number of species is fairly arbitrary: just take all of the bats and subdivide all of their species in two
 
i suppose it would depend heavily on the stance taken
can mate, but don't, ring species, etc.
 
5:53 PM
TIL we are more closely related to bats than to rodents
 
Fun fact: [dno] matches republican candidates but not democrat ones.
 
Hey if anyone has been wondering how beeswax works (the second hexagonal 2D language), M L added a fairly comprehensive explanation to his FizzBuzz solution: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/67675/8478
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ in all of history? what about ones that have dropped out?
 
@Geobits That's kinda funny, because the German word for "bat" is "Fledermaus" which basically means "flutter mouse".
 
if your regex only includes 7 strings, then it's fairly easy :P
 
5:55 PM
@NathanMerrill current 2016 candiates.
It's still kind of interesting/
 
@MartinBüttner In French it's "chauve-souris", which is literally "bald-mouse"
 
That makes even less sense.
 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
ok, another Tournament question: Most of the time elimination tournaments only allow games of 2 teams
how would an elimination tournament work if 3 teams played each other?
 
I'd see it being the same way, only with three branches leading up to the finals
 
5:59 PM
well, it gets confusing with double elimination
 
It'd be harder to represent on paper, but in concept I think it works
 
Unless you want to only eliminate last place each time
 
or that too
 
That way you don't need a power of 3 players
Although I suppose you don't anyway
 
@NathanMerrill Right. Are the games "someone wins and the others lose", or is it more like "someone wins, someone comes in second and someone comes in third"?
 
6:00 PM
Group everyone into 3s. Eliminate last place. Repeat with the remaining 2 thirds in new groups
 
@Roujo yes, there are rankings
 
5000 rep! :D
And almost the silver CG badge!
 
ok, so lets say there's a double elimination bracket that pits 11 teams against each other
 
how about 12 instead?
 
top two go on
no, 11
I want to break this
 
6:02 PM
What does double elimination mean here?
 
if you are a loser, then you move to a different bracket
 
lose again, you're out?
 
Ah - so you get an overall ordering?
So would you start with 3 teams of 3 and one team of 2? Or would you just have 3 teams of 3 and the spare 2 don't play in the first round (safe from elimination)?
 
I'd do a team of 2 if the game allowed it
so I have to consider both possibilities
[1,2,3], [4,5,6], [7,8,9], 10, 11
 
6:05 PM
Guys! You give me n, I give you f(n), you find f!
 
say that lower numbers always win
next round:
 
if f(n) polynomial?
 
If the game does allow it, I guess you just need to decide how to score the team of 2. 1st and 2nd place? 1st and 3rd place? 2nd and 3rd place?
 
oooh, good point
 
I'm not sure which way would avoid giving an advantage/disadvantage for being in the team of 2
 
6:07 PM
I'd probably do 1/3
it'd mean higher stakes, but I think I'm ok with that
 
or just say the two top seeded get a by on the first round
 
@Cyoce is f deterministic?
@Cyoce f(0)
 
@trichoplax 0
 
f(1)
 
what's the domain of f?
 
6:09 PM
@trichoplax 0
 
f(f(f(f(2))))
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ if you don't link python, why is oration written in it? :P
 
so, [1,2,3], [4,5,6], [7,8,9], [10, 11] -> [1,4,7], [10,2,5], 8 and [3,6,9], 11
 
@MartinBüttner ℝ (limited by JS floating-point precision)
 
@RikerW link? :/
 
6:10 PM
@Cyoce f(-1)
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Martin BüttnerThe greatest power... code-golfnumber-theorysequence Yeah, I'm still trying to come up with a better title... A positive integer n is a perfect power of order k if it can be written in the form mk for some integer m. The greatest power of n is the largest number k for which n is a perfect powe...

 
@trichoplax 0
@MartinBüttner 0
 
f(0.5)
 
bah, then the loser bracket gets really confusing
 
6:12 PM
f(Infinity)
f(NaN)
f(123.3456)
 
Oh nooo
I finally got a gold badge...
 
0
Infinity
NaN
94
 
@NathanMerrill Is your final result going to be a strict ordering of all the players?
 
(respectively with the last 4 n)
 
@Lynn Oh nooo? Most people like getting those ;)
 
6:13 PM
f(Math.PI)
 
94 exactly?
 
@trichoplax hmmm. typically KoTHs do order players, so, yes?
 
I was previously the highest-rep user without any gold badges, which was funny.
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ 0
 
Now I'm just not special at all...
 
6:14 PM
Ah, I see. Well, them's the breaks, kid.
 
@NathanMerrill Just trying to take a step back to see what's required in case that helps
 
f(10000)
g2g bai
taking bio test
 
Now it looks like @flawr is the highest rep user with no golds.
 
@trichoplax I'm trying to design something that's flexible. So far, I don't know of any KoTHs that have elimination tournaments, but its certainly not unfeasible
 
@Cyoce Array(20).fill().map((_, i) => f(i))
 
6:16 PM
@NathanMerrill I'm interested in this myself, particularly for the general case of more than 2 players per game. I'd like to make KotHs with an arena with many players, but if there are more players than can reasonably fit in one arena, it would need to be a tournament
 
Also, Array(20).fill().map((_, i) => f(0.1*i))
 
small values seem to be zero
 
@Lynn The domain is the reals
 
@Lynn [0, 0, 1, 1, 2, 4, 0, 2, 5, 4, 4, 7, 6, 5, 4, 0, 0, 8, 15, 17]
 
i is the counting var?
 
6:18 PM
That’s [f(0), f(1), ... f(19)]
 
f(123.3456) = 94 seems so weird.
 
@Lynn Ignore me - I just realised that isn't the imaginary i - I need more sleep :)
 
i imagine it's something to do with the digital sum
 
@trichoplax well, are you planning on making it an elimination challenge?
 
@Geobits Almost... random ? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 
6:19 PM
f(123456)
 
or more of a "take a random sample of X players N times, and sum their scores"?
 
94, right?
 
f(9999999999)
 
oops, i meant f(1233456)
 
@NathanMerrill I'm guessing elimination would take fewer games to give a reasonable result, but I'm not sure
 
6:20 PM
double 3 <_<
 
@primo 302944
@Lynn 6492494190
 
/me is stumped
 
@NathanMerrill Ideally I'd run more than one tournament, with the groups shuffled, but within one tournament it would be elimination
f(phi)
(golden ratio)
 
well, player order is always shuffled, so you don't need to worry about that
len(str(n^n))
or something like that
 
I mean so that a player finding themself in a tough group has another chance next tournament
 
6:26 PM
right, but running multiple tournaments means that each time the player is in a different group
 
yes - that's all I was looking for
Is there anything simpler about 3 than about the general case for groups of n?
 
no, I was doing 3 because its easy to communicate groups that way
but I hope to support groups of N
and M-elimination
and top K move on
 
With K=N-M?
 
no
M is single elimination, double eliminiation, so on
K simply needs to be less than N
 
@trichoplax 0
 
6:30 PM
f(phi)
 
@trichoplax still 0
 
Just checking - you didn't confirm that it was deterministic :P
 
@trichoplax you still don't know
 
Indeed.
 
@trichoplax I think.
 
6:32 PM
That's even more confusing... :)
 
ok, how about this: order players, make as many groups of N as possible, make a group of remaining players, if possible.
ordering orders by (num 1st places, num 2nd places, num 3rd places) and so on
 
 
ties are determined randomly
 
if that answers your question
 
Do you always want to favour N as the group size, with only one small group, or would you consider bringing the small group up to N-1 but reducing some of the other groups to N-1?
 
6:34 PM
@trichoplax favor N
that's what all of my other tournaments have been doing, so I'll keep it that way
however, I think I am going to favor the small group, and if the group is of size 4, and 5 people move on, then all 4 will move on
in places 1,2,3,4
f([])
@HelkaHomba welcome stranger
 
@Cyoce That reminds me of a definition of insanity.
 
@Dennis people who think everything is deterministic are likely insane
:P
 
Looks like you're a scientist.
 
@NathanMerrill Doing something like 3 points for a win, 1 point for 2nd place, and 0 points for 3rd place seems like it would work. You wouldn't need to do a double-elimination, just play two rounds of shuffled teams and take the top X points to move on to the next stage.
 
Hahaha
 
6:42 PM
@TimmyD that's not an elimination tournament then
 
Sure it is.
You're just counting points rather than W/L
Which makes the calculations easier.
 
I want in on this KOTH discussion.
 
the structure is dramatically different than an elimination tournament
so, if somebody wanted a tournament in that structure, they can implement the interface
 
I'm failing to see how. If someone wins twice, they'll have 6 points and will move on. If someone loses twice, they'll have 0 points and be eliminated.
 
We are trying to figure out how to make a 3-way elimination tournament, or just how to rank players in general?
 
6:45 PM
X group of players split into Y games. Each game has 3 players. Double elimination.
 
and elimination tournament with matches of an arbitrary size
 
So the tournament structure we're working on involves dividing into groups of N, and no one competes against anyone outside their own group, until next round when new groups of N are chosen from the survivors?
 
Right, 3's just an example.
 
http://meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/8573/45459
Final thoughts before I post anyone?
 
@TimmyD and if they tie twice?
regardless, with elimination tournaments, if you lose once, you don't play the winners
 
6:46 PM
That would depend upon the ratio of 1st/2nd/3rd place teams
 
(unless we are talking about end-tournament scenario)
 
@trichoplax That sounds really reminiscent of the FIFA schedule for World Cup matches that I brought up earlier.
 
@PhiNotPi A n-elimination tournament with games that support J to K players, and X players get removed each time
 
But, again, that FIFA schedule is predicated on games of two players, with one winner and one loser.
 
(n means single, double, triple, so on)
 
6:48 PM
I suppose we could do with two approaches, depending on whether or not ties are possible
 
@NathanMerrill What's defined as a loss here? 2nd place?
 
@TimmyD depends on how many players move on
which is a parameter to the constructor
so it can be "top 3 move on", or "top 1 moves on"
as long as it is less than the maximum game size
 
So, that's the same as the points system, then. You're just changing the barrier of how many points are required to advance.
If you say 1st=3, 2nd=1, and 3rd=0 points, and set the advancement at 3, you're saying only the top players from each game move on.
 
the points system allows a player who lost to play a winner.
 
I'm not really understanding how? The wouldn't have advanced to the next round, so how would they still be playing?
 
6:52 PM
you initially said two rounds
 
Sure. Or five. Or one.
Or twenty.
 
if its one, then its no different than what I'm saying
 
Yes. That's why I think we were arguing past each other.
 
if its two or more, then its dramatically different
 
We were agreeing without agreeing.
 
6:54 PM
but if it is just one, then there are no reason to keep points
 
I wouldn't say "dramatically different" ... it's just a case of "Number of games per round" = 1
No, meaning it could be the same system.
You wouldn't need to implement it twice.
 
oh, you're wanting additional functionality to the n-elimination system
 
It's a small change to allow for bigger flexibility.
 
@TimmyD So yours is the even more general case, of which this is a specific instance?
 
Right.
 
6:55 PM
TBH, I think elimination systems in general are a terrible way to pick a winner.
4
 
If it's equivalent for fixed size groups, how does the points system apply to a smaller group? Does it help decide what to do there?
 
You could even have a toggle for "Shuffle players between games" ... if that's FALSE, then you're at the FIFA style system.
 
so, with a point system, I would need to assign a point value to each ranking?
 
@trichoplax It goes back to how you want to count the oddballs. For three-player groups with a two-player leftover, is it 1st/3rd? 1st/2nd? Etc.
 
@PhiNotPi What would you recommend for a game played on an arena which can only handle N players, when there are more than N entries? Ideally I'd like something that gives an accurate order, without taking huge amounts of time.
 
6:57 PM
@trichoplax I like the sample N, average your scores
I've already implemented that
 
@TimmyD Yes I'm still undecided on this. I'm trying to think of a way of telling whether there's a single best way, or whether it depends on the type of game.
 
and it makes the number of games played as even as possible
 
@NathanMerrill Could be as simple as "point = inverse of rank" so 1st place gets X points, where X is the number of players in the game.
2nd gets X-1
etc.
If that's too linear, you could weight it slightly, such as 1st place gets X+2, 2nd gets X, 3rd gets X-2, and so on
So the "better" players stand out more.
 
@trichoplax I would recommend something like this: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/4769/2867
 

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