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12:00 AM
and then again I noticed that a sequence doesn't even have to be ordered in order for convergence to make sense!!!
MIND = BLOWN
a sequence converges iff any/all permutations converge too
 
Oh, and there are infinities beyond Aleph Naught
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC I don't believe so.
Everything is finite.
 
@LuisMendo I'm not really sure how those (arguments) are parsed in tio/nexus for J. For input, you can call stdin to receive the entire input until EOF as a string.
 
(Except for human stupidity.)
 
@flawr At first I thought you were channeling Geobits but now I know you're channeling Einstein. :P
 
:D
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC did you ever see an infinite thing?
 
Hitler!
 
@flawr thing ≠ math
numbers are not for things
 
what else are their here for?
 
12:05 AM
@flawr Density of a black hole
@flawr Huh?
 
Aleph-null is not the largest infinity
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC I've never seen a black hole. They probably don't even exist.
 
There is no largest infinity
 
@GabrielBenamy There isn't even a largest finity.
 
12:06 AM
@flawr How do you explain the gravity in the milky way's center
 
@flawr Given any infinite set, construct another set whose members are all of the subsets of the original. This new set is strictly greater in cardinality than the previous one. This means that for any infinitely large set, you can construct another set that's even larger.
 
@GabrielBenamy Yep, I never doubted that:)
 
is that Logic Ref?
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC Why should the milkyway have a center? It goes around the whole sky.
The sky could as well be the inside of a sphere.
 
@flawr what
 
12:08 AM
I must say, flawr is doing really well at the act of dragging trailing fishing lines through water.
2
 
@flawr are you okay
 
@El'endiaStarman And I don't even like fish...
 
@flawr That was a common belief up until we got photos of the milky way from the outside
 
@trichoplax Omg this changes everything!
 
the universe is flat but the earth is a cuboid
 
Just one??
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC tempted to flag as spam.
 
Please stop posting those. One or two was enough.
 
@El'endiaStarman Well I just wanted to point out that I actually don't know too much about some subjects that are talked about here, and perhaps some others here might not either:)
@El'endiaStarman BTW: did you read the thing about the sequences and limits?
 
@flawr I think I learned that absolutely convergent sequences always converge no matter how the terms are rearranged in my Real Analysis class.
 
12:12 AM
@El'endiaStarman I think now you're talking about series?
 
Absolutely convergent != conditionally convergent, where convergence depends on the order of the terms.
 
I'm talking about sequences, not series:)
 
Well, infinite series are the limit of sequences with arbitrarily many terms...
 
No, flawr means that the sequences are not summed.
 
If you're talking about a finite sequence, then don't they necessarily converge regardless?
 
12:14 AM
Just the value of the element which converges.
 
1
A: Golf you a quine for great good!

Wheat WizardMini-Flak, 6900 bytes Mini-flak is a Turing complete subset of Brain-Flak. It works exactly like Brain-Flak except the [], <> and <...> operations are banned from use. Programming in Min-Flak is thus much more difficult than traditional Brain-Flak. The main difficulty with Mini-Flak is the la...

Incredible
 
@El'endiaStarman no the thing about finiteness was just part of the trolling.
@feersum exactly
 
@flawr There is an infinity top dog in mathematics, it's unreachable (defined by a postulate)
 
what is a "top dog"?
 
Oh, I see. A series is the sequence obtained from adding together n terms of a sequence?
@flawr Ever heard of "alpha dog"? Same idea.
 
12:17 AM
@El'endiaStarman yep. But i'm only talking about sequences, not series:)
 
Don't you mean aleph dog?
2
 
gives that "nope" smile
 
@flawr Gotcha; I get it now.
 
@El'endiaStarman great=) (I honestly have to look up which one is which (sequence vs series) everytime in english)
 
@flawr Yeah, they're pretty synonymous.
 
12:19 AM
@El'endiaStarman are they? I thought a series is explicitly the sequence of partial sums of a sequence
 
I meant in English in general.
 
Oh ok sure!
At least in german there is the clear distinciton (in math) between "Folge" and "Reihe" but in everyday language both can more or less be used interchangeably.
 
It's the same way in English.
 
Ah sorry ok then I think I just misunderstood you.
I'm glad we've cleared that up now=)
O_o I should delete my submissions or I'm gonna get another dirty gold badge!
 
Dirty gold?
 
12:26 AM
I just noticed that the notion all but finitely many seems to be much easier to understand than the formalized for every epsilon there is an N0 such that...
@DJMcMayhem I like silver so much better:)
@DJMcMayhem For I while I held the title of "highest rep user without gold badge" :D
 
@flawr ah. Is that a good or bad thing? :-P
 
@DJMcMayhem It was certainly something to be proud of. :D
 
@quartata I got a desc tag on tf2. Should I sell it on community market (10 cents) or on backpack.tf (1 ref)?
 
Use it
 
why?
(it was random drop)
 
12:36 AM
Because 1 ref is a pittance and named weapons are cool
If you don't have a name tag to go with you could just save it
 
1 ref is 50% is my life savings :P but yeah good idea
 
Your life savings are 22 cents?
 
2 ref
 
Sorry, 18 cents. Forgot that keys are up to 27 ref now
 
I've never put a single cent into this game yet
 
12:37 AM
I kind of feel like crying over how useless my backpack is now
 
how useless is it?
 
All of my liquid is in metal
At the time a key was 16 ref
So basically worthless now
 
Yep, he surely was an inspiration.
 
Keys will probably never stop going up since for the average player higher buying power of keys is good
But since I don't care I'm playing the long game and hoping that keys will go down to 1 ref someday
:PP
 
12:40 AM
XD
@quartata another question: I bought a strange spy cosmetic for $1.01 and it's now worth $1.75. what should I do?
 
@Optimizer ^ is that you?
 
1:03 AM
@ConorO'Brien What is the cosmetic?
 
lurker's leathers
 
Hi guys
 
hiya!
 
I just updated my Java Turing machine implementation
 
1:04 AM
Anyone know what happens in hexagony when you divide (or mod) by 0?
cool!
 
rules question: suppose a language has two different syntaxes for an array of integers, and they are treated differently by the language (builtins act one way on arrays that were produced by one syntax, and another way on arrays that were produced by another syntax); does requiring one or the other syntax to be used count as a reasonable input method?
 
@ConorO'Brien It'll probably stay fairly constant
Sell if you want to sell
 
@quartata cool
 
@MistahFiggins It seems to use the same semantics as ruby's integer modulo
So probably error, but I'm not sure
 
@flawr alpaca =/= llama ಠ_ಠ
Everyone know alpaca > llama
 
1:10 AM
CMC: Given goat, llama, alpaca, output 1, 2, 3 respectively.
 
s->["goat","llama","alpaca"].index(s)
@DJMcMayhem YISSSSSSSSSSS
 
@Calvin'sHobbies are those the only possible elements?
*inputs
 
@ConorO'Brien inputs? yes
 
lambda s:len(s)-3
 
@Downgoat Is that not 0 indexed?
 
1:13 AM
CRAP
fixed with stolen logic from xnor: s->s.len-3
 
@xnor you goat the prize
 
1+'gla'i.{.
oh
#-3:
 
speaking of cheddar, I am almost done with string docs :D
 
@Downgoat \o/
 
I was trying to do something with ord rather than len, but len is clearly better
 
1:15 AM
@ConorO'Brien idk if I've already asked you (if I have I don't mean to nag you), but can you pls do docs for functional stuff in cheddar :3? If you don't to that's fine
 
@Downgoat I want to but I have not the time. finals are in two weeks and I have a bunch of hw in the meanwhile
 
@miles Thanks again. I'll ask Dennis
 
:| crap, i should be studying for final too
 
@Dennis How do I get inputs into a J program in TIO? Something like this but with those 5 and 10 20 30 as user inputs
 
@Downgoat btw idk if I asked you but I feel like there should be special functional ops that are higher precedence than their overloaded equivalents, e.g. @@ is the same as +
@LuisMendo you'll have to read from STDIN
 
1:18 AM
@ConorO'Brien How? Total noob here
 
Well, 1!:1(1) reads a line from stdin
 
@LuisMendo I have no idea. When you're golfing in J, you usually want to write a function/verb, not a full program.
 
and that ^
 
@Downgoat CMC pt 2: Given fin, final, finalize, finalized, output 0, 1, 2, 3 respectively
 
@Dennis did you change the input behaviour for J? It seems to engage REPL mode when having the input box nonempty
 
1:20 AM
@Dennis But you'll want to demonstrate the function in TIO...
 
/opt/j64-804/bin/jconsole .code.tio "$@" < .input.tio
@ConorO'Brien This is what the wrapper does:
 
can someone link me to docs for this C++ syntax?
FUNC_NAME(whatever) {
    codeblock
}
 
C:\Users\Conor O'Brien\Documents\Programming\J\jext (master)
λ type test.ijs
echo quote 1!:1(3)

C:\Users\Conor O'Brien\Documents\Programming\J\jext (master)
λ type input.txt
Hello!
C:\Users\Conor O'Brien\Documents\Programming\J\jext (master)
λ type input.txt | test.ijs
'Hello!'

C:\Users\Conor O'Brien\Documents\Programming\J\jext (master)
λ test.ijs < input.txt
'Hello!'

C:\Users\Conor O'Brien\Documents\Programming\J\jext (master)
λ jconsole test.ijs < input.txt
   Hello !

C:\Users\Conor O'Brien\j64-804
 
it looks like function but no type signatures
 
1:25 AM
there are various ways to invoke the jconsole and have different effects ^^
 
@LuisMendo Not saying there isn't a better way, but I usually just do something like this. tio.run/nexus/j#@5@mYGuloP0/NTkjX8FUIU3B0EDByEDB2OA/AA
 
@flawr hahaha
 
@LuisMendo here's a somewhat clunky way of doing it via arguments tio.run/nexus/j#K1awtVIwUADi/9r/…
 
@Downgoat Not sure but could be a function call followed by a block scope all on its own
 
1:33 AM
@ConorO'Brien That's just Windows being weird though. With Linux, cat input.txt | whatever and whatever < input.txt are equivalent.
 
@miles wait J has ARGV?! TIL
@Dennis that's actually a difference between invoking .ijs with the associated methods and invoking jconsole directly
 
Linux also doesn't care about file extensions. You have to include a shebang, and once again, both methods are equivalent.
 
yeah
what's the process for getting a language on the nexus?
 
@Dennis Thanks! That's exactly what I need
@miles Thanks! That will be useful too... although I have no idea how it works :-P I need to learn more J
 
question: I have a super-simple C++ function. Anyone can fathom why it wouldn't prompt for input?
std::string syncPrompt() {
    std::string out;
    std::cin.clear();
    std::cin.sync();
    std::getline(std::cin, out);
    return out;
}
 
Because it doesn't even attempt to print anything?
 
I added a cout << "Input: " to beginnning and same thing
 
It didn't print Input: ?
 
It printed input but did not wait for user to type anything
 
1:57 AM
So your question is why it didn't read input?
 
yes
 
@Downgoat wtf goat used good punctuation
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ it's not a bad thing
 
not really good grammar ("anyone can fathom") but congrats
 
I don't know what clear or sync are supposed to do, but you should probably read the documentation of them some more times.
 
1:59 AM
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Is this a problem? :P
 
no
@Downgoat I call iPad autocorrect
 
@feersum those are the supposed solution to prolem :P
 
If you aren't doing funny things to the standard stream elsewhere in the program, you probably don't need them.
 
Doesn't work without them either however
 
Do you have a minimal failing example?
 
2:03 AM
meaning?
 
A complete program
 
#include <nan.h>
#include <v8.h>

#include <string>
#include <iostream>

std::string syncPrompt() {
    std::cout << "value: ";

    std::string out;
    std::cin.ignore();
    std::getline(std::cin, out);

    std::cout << "got: " << out;
    return out;
}

// Binding
NAN_METHOD(syncPrompt) {
    std::string res = syncPrompt();
    info.GetReturnValue().Set(Nan::New<v8::String>( res ).ToLocalChecked());
}

NAN_MODULE_INIT(InitAll) {
    Nan::Set(target, Nan::New("sync_prompt").ToLocalChecked(),
so basically it just calls syncPrompt() and yeah
 
That's a lot of context that was missing.
A lot of times frameworks have their own replacement for standard I/O streams.
So you should check the manual for v8 or nan, whatever those are.
 
yeah, I've looked up and with v8 you pretty much use std:: methods for IO
 
0
Q: Generate the largest array then print it

Christopher PeartThe problem Generate the largest array filled with numbers (largest being typing array.length or your language of choice's equivalent) then print it. As in send the command to the computer to print the array. You would cause the box for hitting Ctrl+P or OS equivalent to pop up and the preview w...

 
2:09 AM
std::cin >> s doesn't work either
odd since std::cout works just fine
 
Is there a trivial esolang solution to: Write the longest N-char program possible that outputs N, but when the index-I char is removed, the output is I? e.g. N = 3: ABC would output 3, BC outputs 0, AC outputs 1, BC outputs 2
 
I can't think of one
although it's always possible that there's an esolang that I just didn't think of
 
@Downgoat I feel like you missed the second half of that message...
 
I can do it for N=1 easily enough
even N=2 is starting to push it though
however, I suspect it's possible to manage it for very large N in less esoteric languages
via using radiation-proof-quine tricks
come to think of it, I wrote an esolang yesterday (thus it'd predate the challenge) that would be really good at this
it's a minor variant of Perl, but one of the things it can do is to detect that its source has been modified
without breaking proper-quine rules
anyway, you should submit it, it'll be an interesting challenge
just need to make sure that the scoring handles the N=∞ case
 
2:22 AM
I always think these are too hard to be worth it but then Sp or Dennis comes along
 
nah, this is a really interesting level of difficulty
people should post these "it seems impossible" challenges more often
my n=3 radiation-proof quine was really fun to write (i.e. you can delete any three characters and it still prints the original string)
the author thought that would be impossible for n>1, and in fact nobody found one for ages
but the mere existence of the challenge was a lot of fun
in other puzzle- and quiz-oriented sites I've been in, there's been the occasional "almost impossible challenge"; often they never get solved, but they're fun to work on
it is considered to be courteous to place a warning about how difficult it is though
here, that's less important, people can normally tell
(the other thing about the "very hard challenges" is that it's common to get collaborative attempts at a solution)
 
For this one it seems like if you can get anything greater than 2 or 3, you could get unbounded.
 
yes
I agree that unbounded solutions are probably going to be easier than the bounded one
possible exception for Deadfish-alikes that have a very large number of commands
but I don't think any of those actually exist
 
can anyone read this and figure out the letter, my tired brain can't understand what this says
 XX  XXXX XXX  X  X XXX  XXXX XXX    XX XXX   XXX
X  X X    X  X X  X X  X    X X  X    X X  X X
X  X XXX  XXX  X  X X  X   X  XXX     X X  X X
XXXX X    X  X X  X XXX   X   X  X    X XXX   XX
X  X X    X  X X  X X    X    X  X X  X X       X
X  X X    XXX   XX  X    XXXX XXX   XX  X    XXX
AFBUPZNPS? AFBUPZRJPS? i'm lost
 
it ends ZBJPS
the two Bs are identical :-P
 
2:32 AM
What is this, did the Nethack server introduce CAPTCHAs?
 
AFBUPZBJPS
 
we actually have a standard CAPTCHA for NetHack-related things that asks you what characters are used to represent various things in the game
it'd be trivially automatable but so far, no spammer has put in the effort
hmm, that might be interesting to golf, actually, it'd be like a cross between and
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ I read AFBUPZBJPS
 
@feersum no, it's for an advent of code problem, the program is supposed to spit out that and I'm supposed to read it but I can't
@ais523 cool, thanks
 
have there been any challenges like that yet? (given a medium-sized list of large keys each of which is associated with a small value, take a key as input and print the value; you can assume that the key is valid)
 
2:35 AM
@Downgoat yours was the same as ais'es and it worked!
 
@ais523 not sure
 
regex golf is the special case of that where the answers are true and false
 
@Dennis the only diff is the "i Haskell", right?
 
but I have no idea how to search for something like this
 
2:36 AM
and the font
 
might ask the sandbox
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Yeah. i was supposed to signal information (the language name is a link), but I got some negative feedback on that.
 
I am not sure if this is the right place to ask, but people in the h-bar chat didn't reply. Just a question regarding crystal field theory: why does the crystal field splitting energy increase as we go down a group with the same oxidation state?
 
@Dennis let me give you some contradictory feedback: it didn't take me long to figure out that i represented a link to language information
 
@Dennis hm, I just plain wans't sure what it meant
 
2:39 AM
and I found the link useful after that
 
Is it simply because the atomic radius increases, the d-orbitals are closer to the ligands in a complex and thus there is a greater electron repulsion in the octahedral electrostatic field, meaning that the electrons in the d-orbitals will be displaced by a greater amount resulting the crystal field splitting energy to be greater?
 
perhaps something like Underload (information) would be clearer, though?
 
@ais523 Sure, but that wouldn't fit on mobile.
 
@Hiro I'd say yes, that's basically it.
 
2:41 AM
somehow the thought of using TIO on mobile hadn't crossed my mind
 
but I'm not sure, I like chem but am not a college student of it
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ For real?
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ I tried to look up the reason on the internet but could not find it, and so made a hypothesis based on periodic trends, electron configuration and crystal field theory.. lol
 
@Hiro like I said, I'm only a high school student
but that sounds about right to me, often the simple explanation is the best one
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Me too...
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Ah, alright awesome thanks :P
 
@Hiro I don't think you'll find any experts on crystal field theory in the chat of a coding competition site.
 
2:45 AM
there is that too ;P
 
@Dennis I am aware of that, just needed a quick answer and no one would reply in the science chats
 
@Dennis personally I like the dev one better
 
3:01 AM
I have written a sync prompt library for node that actually works. Fixes possibly node's biggest downside imo
 
@Downgoat How's cheddar graphing?
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

ais523What does that monster look like? code-golf In the computer game NetHack, there are lots of monsters to fight. The position of each visible monster is shown on the game's map via the use of a single ASCII character; for example, a giant ant is shown as a, an acid blob is shown as b, and a chick...

 
@Calvin'sHobbies its a big bodge
it doesn't use native functions
etc.
I've explained in README
it doesn't even work in some versions
 
3:18 AM
@Downgoat I get skeptical when reality is insisted upon
 
ಠ_ಠ
I mean come on, it grabs output from a external shell or powershell script. Don't tell me that's not flimsy
 
idk much about it but I'd tend to trust the one with the most stars and downloads (and no issues). Major problems with it would have been noticed by now. Not saying your is bad but maybe they had reasons for coding it like they did.
 
@Calvin'sHobbies most stars + downloads = first one made
honestly 99% of nodejs users dont care how it works as long as it works and it feels like author of that was one of them
 
Just added a 500 point bounty to codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/88799/…
 
4:11 AM
@Sparr I don't get how you tell whether a "display" section is valid or not.
 
the display section doesn't affect scoring. it's just to make it easier for people to see whether the other section works or not
 
Anyone here have experience with Powershell on Linux?
 
Isn't Powrshell like a super-Windows thing?
 
No, but I have experience with Bash on Windows.
 
Yeah, but it's open source iirc
 
4:20 AM
I managed to install it and I can run it as root just fine, but I get weird errors if I run it as another user.
Really wanted to add Powershell to TIO...
 
Whats wrong with putting root user on TIO? :P
 
Great idea! brb
 
:D
Also no idea if possible but can multi-file TIO instances be a thing?
 
@Dennis what happens if you run it inside unshare -pUfr? that's creates a kind of vaguely sandbox-like object, but the most interesting feature it has is that any programs inside will believe they are root
 
i.e. Can i add like a data.txt to execution env
 
4:30 AM
actually, the program will be running under your own username, but the OS will lie and claim that that user is root, if asked
 
@ais523 Same error. For reference:
Unhandled Exception: System.Reflection.TargetInvocationException: Exception has been thrown by the target of an invocation. ---> System.TypeInitializationException: The type initializer for 'System.Management.Automation.PSVersionInfo' threw an exception. ---> System.IO.FileNotFoundException: Could not load file or assembly 'System.Diagnostics.FileVersionInfo, Version=4.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=b03f5f7f11d50a3a'. The system cannot find the file specified.
 ---> System.IO.FileNotFoundException: Could not load the specified file.
 
@Dennis maybe try absolute path instead of relative one (I have absolutely no idea if it'll work but maybe)
 
Tried that.
 
is there a file that's part of the Powershell installation that you don't have read access to? that's my best guess based on the stack trace
 
Yep
 
4:34 AM
@Dennis try maybe chmod -R 777 /usr/bin to give powershell full perms :P
 
@ais523 Not as far as I can tell. (That dotnet tarball I downloaded from Microsoft even gave ownership to the sandbox user for some reason.) All files in /opt/microsoft and /opt/dotnet are world-readable.
 
Halp what's wrong with this code it works with all test cases but doesn't work with real BSNs codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/102486/56721
 
@DJMcMayhem I'd be much more inclined to spontaneously give a bounty to someone with the username "DJMcGoathem" then "DJMcMayhem"... Just saying...
 
What about someone with the username "TheUserFormerlyKnownAsDJMcGoathem"?
 
Okay. how about this: s -> s.normalized == "DJMcGoathem" where s is username
 
Anonymous
4:43 AM
 
Anonymous
ಠ_ಠ
 
Anonymous
Considering that we made that post because the CMs asked...
 
Interesting article: Why does calloc exist? The gist of the answer is "memory allocation shenanigans". :P
 
Two close votes already...
 
Anonymous
@Dennis Yep, by the same users who I consistently see vote the opposite from the majority in the close votes queue >_>
 
Anonymous
4:51 AM
There's a handful of users who I always see vote to close a question that shouldn't be closed, or vice-versa
 
It seems voting is working as intended then?
 
Anonymous
Eh, I guess
 
Anonymous
It's just mind-boggling why people would vote to close stuff that really has no reason to be closed
 
Anonymous
Specifically, the same users over and over
 
Don't worry, I'm sure they feel the same way about others ;)
 
Anonymous
4:54 AM
It almost makes me wish we had audits :P
 
Eww. Those things are gross :P
 
@Mego If you vote against the majority enough times. SE will impose a temporary review queue ban on you, so it shouldn't continue for too long
 
Anonymous
And then of course there's the issue that the SE system automatically flags stuff as low quality incorrectly 90% of the time
 
Anonymous
Really if people would just start adding explanations to their posts, we wouldn't be having this issue
 
@Downgoat Is that true on all sites? I thought it was just SO that did that.
 
4:56 AM
Wait seriously???
 
Anonymous
But the SE system really isn't geared for PPCG. "Hey this answer is short, so it's probably no good." No, SE, it's an answer to a code golf challenge. Being short is kind of the point.
 
@Downgoat Maybe it's time-related and our queues just aren't ever full enough for it to take effect. I dunno.
 
Well we have 3 years remaining on your "4 years to design/site-specific features" so we're a almost a quarter way to having your site-specific solutions
 
Either way, that only stops reviews. It doesn't stop people from VTCing.
 
O_O Crap, I think I just corrupted my blog's database
 
4:57 AM
Use a holy water
 
Anonymous
@Downgoat Try dropping it
 
Anonymous
Use jQuery
 
@Geobits I tried but now database is just yellow and smelly :P
(too immature of a joke?)
@Mego ok, this worked 10/10
 
I don't think that was holy water...
 
Anonymous
First world problem: one of those rubber bits on my keyboard fell off, and now my keyboard is sliding a lot and makes a lot of noise while typing because it's unbalanced
 
4:59 AM
@Geobits I think holy water has different meanings across our cultures :/
 

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