7:00 PM
On that end, I also am still getting the hang of things. Five trials was obviously far too few, and I wouldn't write a challenge that takes 8 hours per trial ever again

I think I'm about to end up writing one that takes a long time... ugh

Omg I love the new jelly movement lol.
It's so realistic
Straight down, potentially diagonal up

@MartinBüttner for people unfamiliar with fishing nets, clarify that nets move towards the open end? that is, u moves up and n moves down (which is very mnemonic now that I've typed it out)
@MartinBüttner also, you should totally represent nets as u and n :)
(one of those two is a serious suggestion)
re the net shape, I don't like the idea that seeing the leading edge of a net doesn't tell you which way the net extends. that seems unrealistic and algorithmically annoying
but I can't immediately think of a good fix

@Rainbolt "realistic"... it's how it works in Super Mario basically...
@Sparr I think I've writting "in the +y direction?"

sure, but +y means different things to different people and challenges :p

7:07 PM
@Sparr No, bots should figure out in which direction the net is moving from the relative position
@Sparr Yeah I should specify orientations better anyway... +y is North

if you're passing the arena as a [z][y][x] array, +y is south
in some conventions
is +z up or down? altitude or depth?

altitude

Jellyfish Movement (because the more you know)

right handed coordinate system

if +z is up and +x is right, then +y is away from you?

7:09 PM
north south east west up down

@Rainbolt yeah

@MartinBüttner z and y can be arbitrary and it still be a right handed coordinate system...

@Sparr yes, but x is never to the left, and I specified z as up, which determines y ;)

X never to the left? you've obviously never dealt with western-hemisphere-only lat/long coordinates :p

Up generally indicates positive z, and east generally indicates positive x, so I would use those

7:10 PM
Y is always up in my mind

Z is always up in my mind
X and Y are east and north
like on a map :)
@VisualMelon if Y is up, then is your 2d coordinate system x/z?

I agree with Visual though, on some planes I draw Y up and then Z ends up coming at me. It needs to be specified @MartinBüttner

@Sparr that's not too uncommon a convention either

I think the origin of this distinction is whether we are thinking about a map on a table as the default 2d coordinate system, or something on a (vertical) screen.
the idea of Z being "away from you"

nah, my 2d coords are x/y, it's on a nice screen facing me, so Y is up ;)

7:12 PM
that's screen-based thinking
anyway, the punchline is that you need to specify the coordinate system :)

Does this really matter at all as long as the spec tells you what it is? None of these is going to be harder to use.
Yea, what he said :p

@Geobits it matters when the spec doesn't tell you :p

Good point Geobits. @MartinBüttner Pick one that nobody would ever use in real life.

@Rainbolt done

The enemy's gate is down.

7:13 PM
also, remember that not only do you need to specify X/Y/Z as pertains to NSEWUD, but you also need to be explicit about how blocks of data are transmitted.
You could send X Y Z DATA for each bit
or you could send 27 pieces of DATA and specify what order they are in

@Sparr Yes, I will do that once I've written the controller
wait

send 125 to squid
one line, 0 (blind) or 27 (normal) or 125 (squid) characters

for bots written in the same language, it will be a 3D array with specified indexing
for the command line protocol I need to figure something out

I've wasted far too much time forgetting to invert Z-values from my 3D modeler (it's right hand, I'm generally left hand)

@MartinBüttner I, and others, would be profoundly thankful if you provide helper classes like Dogfight did

7:16 PM
@Sparr I'll try to make it as easy as I can
I'm rep whore of the month after all, and I want my place in the HNQ :P

Actually, rep whore of the entire quarter lol: #1 quarter rank

{I'm working on Marbelous' site, yay xD}

well that's only 36 days so far
@cjfaure I'm about to create the first repo

@MartinBüttner ;D

7:19 PM
i'll make a repo for the site once I'v--
apache 2.0

always Apache

apache apache apache apache

(except when it's CC)

apache is way better for software than cc
apache is what the world needs

CC isn't awesome for code

7:22 PM
quite, but it's good for stuff what isn't code

books and art, yes
code, no

there is no .ml file type yet o.O
(there is .mar and .mb though and .marb is too long)

i think .mrb?

"Multiple Resolution Bitmap graphics file"

.mbl

7:24 PM
that works

mbl is catchy <3

@Geobits mbl is console-programmer-friendly

TLA isn't friendly in my book.

well, not with my typing method

7:26 PM
@Geobits I like it

Major Baseball League!

Marjor Besaball Lousgue!

Menstrual Blood Loss

ew

ummmm

7:28 PM
K I'm convinced that MBL is the best option.

My Big Leopard :D

i wish i had a leopard ;_;

Married But Looking
2

@Geobits no NO

7:29 PM
Oh great. Now the transcript is my own personal Craigslist ad.

xD
Oh god, 2 married but looking

@Rainbolt Don't worry, people will just assume you're one of those "fake internet identities" I learned about earlier.

i don't use mine like that :D
unlike many a redditor

@cjfaure @overactor @githubphagocyte What are your thoughts about writing the prototype for marble in JavaScript? That would make it easier to write an online interpreter for testing.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if two married folks found each other on craigslist via an ad titled Married But Looking and then they just joked about it and realized that they were meant to be?

7:31 PM
@MartinBüttner i guess that's good

@Rainbolt i'll get the cameras, you get the married couples
3 2 1 go

Uhhh... I forgot my line

cut
sheesh, actors :I

I don't know very many married couples. My friends aren't allowed to marry for the most part.

7:33 PM
@Rainbolt While I'm not married to the idea of matrimony (get it? GET IT?), I do think that if you go through with it, you should at least try to take it seriously. Anyone who's MBL is just not being very nice to their spouse IMO. Talk to them, break it off if you must, but no side action.
Unless of course the spouse is game. Then go for it :D

but then there's no drama!

You want drama, turn on The Learning Channel (that's a sad statement of our times, I believe).

@Geobits Oh trust me I don't encourage the idea of my movie at all. But bad decisions have happy endings on occasion

yeah. credits.

7:34 PM

@cjfaure (fyi I thought it was funny but not enough to star because taken out of context it isn't very funny)

@Rainbolt implicit star acknowledged

@Rainbolt True. Sometimes two wrongs do make a right. Kinda. In a twisted way. With pain along the way.

@Geobits two wrongs make a wrongwrong :D

7:38 PM
Like if you needed to go straight but you turn right twice?

so this line of code i just wrote.
`		<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="css/css.css" />`

we should have called it Cascade
that's why you call the file "main.css" btw

really? `css/css.css`? I couldn't think of a better directory tree?

or "marble.css"

well, at least i got the point across that it's css

7:39 PM

i thought utopia was a good place

I was really looking for a better U word, but that's the first that came to mind.

underling?
xD

7:41 PM
Unbiased?

unclassy.

CUM is pretty unclassy tbh

Well, there goes the chat. C'mon in and shut us down, Doorknob.

:P
it was a bit obvious ^^;

Hopefully it was more than a bit. I wasn't exactly going for subtlety.

7:43 PM
xD

grrr
@MartinBüttner you're a horrible tease

uh oh... guys... there was no question by Calvin's Hobbies today... PPCG is going down...
@Sparr huh?

Haha has he been asking one every day?

QUICK~
Post ponies, mods won't find bad acronyms among ponies

@Rainbolt except one day I think

7:44 PM
@MartinBüttner posting that commit but it not having docs other than examples. I was hoping to catch up on the idea and contribute

let's make a movie about it called 08-05

can anyone at least identify the section of chat transcript that includes the marble discussion? I came in at the very end yesterday

Maybe Calvin Hobbies rests on Tuesdays? Should we start a religion around this?

@Sparr haha sorry... we wanted to start the docs in a google doc for quicker collaboration... we should do that now

@Geobits hey man, pc calendar format :P

7:45 PM
That depends on localization.

PC Calendar format follows the culture set in your user settings (on Windows machines)

@Geobits my computer gives the date as 2014-08-05

there is a standard for this
what cj said

7:46 PM
Following the standard but chopping off the year is as bad as not following it at all.

i never did figure out that second one on the bottom right

When you forget, just remember that SQL follows the standard. DATE - format YYYY-MM-DD

@Rainbolt I just think "big-endian!"

@cjfaure the small numbers tell you in which order to read the large numbers

what does 1330300800 mean?

7:50 PM

@NathanMerrill i think it's a chmod xD
it looks like an old chmod

It's 27 Feb 2013, just like the rest.

but
unix timestamps are the only format time can exist in!

my favorite is still the binary one

and it's the scariest form of time if you really look at it
it was 133... last year in feb 2013 when {thing happened}; now it's 140...
it was 000... in 1970 when {thing happened}
timeghost strikes again

7:52 PM
No, star date is the scariest, since it's based on TV seasons and not, you know, time.
3

@MartinBüttner @overactor @githubphagocyte we need a slogan! o:
@Geobits like how Randall Munroe measures money in amount of seasons of Arrested Development it can fund?

@MartinBüttner nah man, something to go in an <h2> under the main logo
like "The esoteric programming language you'll find yourself making art in." bad example but heh

I don't know what qualifies to go in an <h2>
ahhh okay

there are 2 things I'm scared of.

7:56 PM
naming things?

Spiders, clearly.

and off-by-one errors?

1) People that yell at me for using h2 because "it's deprecated"
2) Spiders
ninja'd on the second
h2 is not deprecated. Span is deprecated, jerk.

Well, spiders turn us all into ninjas.

<h-whatevers> are silly

7:58 PM
@NathanMerrill how dare you
they're useful and valid and standard and search engines like them
>:OOO

they aren't followed consistently across sites

@MartinBüttner hell, if someone links to the transcript I'd be happy to condense it and edit out the drivel to start the doc

@NathanMerrill they are across mine

well, if you design the entire web, then they would be useful

7:59 PM
I think marble needs it's own room
3

my code is the only code that matters to me, if other people want to abuse the standard, that's their problem
#stubborncoder

### Marbelous esolang design

anyways, I still think having classes "page-title", "page-subtitle", and such makes more sense

@NathanMerrill search engines can't read english

@cjfaure Last I heard, nothing past h1 was used for SEO any more (or at least there's no evidence for it on most search engines).

8:02 PM
@Geobits yeah, but all the other h's are just as usable - they mean the same to the engine but not to the reader

@Sparr ping

just because 2 things are equivalent in one aspect doesn't mean you need to use only one :P

@cjfaure I meant that h2+ are completely ignored and scanned as common text, so they might as well just be classes as Nathan said.

@Geobits waaat?

I'm not even sure there's evidence that h1 is being treated specially any more.

8:08 PM
@Geobits "any more"? it's new with the html5 standard...

What are you saying is new? h1? Search engine scanning methods?

@Geobits the latter :P

Then I don't understand. Are you saying that search engines never looked at headings until HTML5 came out? I can't see how it's relevant.

@Geobits no, I just mean all the hype about using them and search engines focusing on them started around that time

2007 at the very least: pearsonified.com/2007/04/…

8:15 PM
you'll definitely find a document from the 90s easily :P
i only recently started using hn tags, so, i'm kinda misinformed ;3

Yea, Google's being a pain in the ass. "SEO" wasn't a term so much back then, having to be creative.
Ooooh, a doc studying AltaVista's search tree from 1996. Very nice: www7.scu.edu.au/1872/com1872.htm

9:03 PM
@Rainbolt that was a short visit :D

@MartinBüttner I generally require 5 seconds to absorb all of the knowledge in a room.
(In other words, I have no clue what you guys are even doing in there)

check the pinned post :P

9:24 PM
Our customers have a strange way of expressing their needs
"I was expecting Object 1 to be on top, and Object 2 to be on bottom."
We inevitably have to reply with "Would you like it to be sorted alphabetically?"
To which the reply is usually "How are you sorting it currently? We don't want to pay for extraneous dev time."
Life would be easier if every conversation started and ended with "I want X." "X will cost you Y dollars and take Z days." "Kay do it."

Customers are a strange breed of human.

Having a Seven Red Lines kind of day?

@cjfaure At Subway I knew how to work the customers. Unfortunately, the service industry only overlaps a little with development industry.
@Geobits I can't watch Youtube at work (I mean I can but I shouldn't - kind of like how I shouldn't be in here all day)
I was attacked by a customer at Subway one night
She stuck her upper torso through the drive thru window, picked up the receipt machine, and threw it at me. It flew about 6 inches before the wire caught it and it swung to the ground.
Then her friend came inside, demanded a refund (the refund I already offered to give before being attacked), and I declined, saying that if she didn't leave I would call the police, and that she should come back tomorrow and get a refund directly from my boss's boss.

@Rainbolt They can't email, they can't order, they can't even throw receipt machines?
@Rainbolt nicely handled clap clap

It started because there wasn't enough lettuce on her sandwich
I said I can put more lettuce on and she got angry and demanded a brand new one lol

9:38 PM

@cjfaure :(

@Rainbolt eh, now I can't verbalize my thoughts :P I mean I'm glad that there wasn't enough, but, she clearly wanted there to be more :P
"There's not enough lettuce on this sandwich."
"I can put more lettuce on your sandwich."
"No. The sandwich is *corrupted*. The lack of lettuce has scarred it permanently."

If she had said that I probably would have chuckled and made her a new one.
The customer is always right, but she didn't say anything at all so I couldn't take her word for it.

@Rainbolt ECC sandwich.

I mean she said something but it had nothing to do with sandwiches and it was vulgar

9:44 PM
@Rainbolt I think the "the customer is always right" rule is stupid, the business is the one taking the risk (money is imaginary) and they're doing you a massive favor...

Wat?

It's a customer service rule meant specifically for retail and food, where customer retention is far more important than a small loss of your cheap product. And there are obvious exceptions, like the customer can't just say "Your food is free."

of course the customer is the main part of the business, but that doesn't give them the right to treat the employees badly :/

And usually, you try to spin it like "I don't like to be treated badly." rather than "You treated me badly."

The business is by no means "doing you a massive favor".

9:46 PM
I'd rather it be "The customer is the customer. Please be a human being."
@Geobits By doing it yourself, you'd be spending a lot more money and a lot more time, so relative to that, they're giving you time and money for nothing

In theory. That doesn't work in reality, or it would actually be free.

My manager, on more than one occasion, told a customer that we should be treated humanely. At the same time, we compensated them for their unpleasant experience so that they would (hopefully) tell their friends that we were the bigger man.

His boss actually banned a customer from the store too, for treating us poorly

@Geobits the time you'd be spending on doing it (without the equipment) is worth money
@Rainbolt well, that's unheard of for me o_o
also there was an earthquake earlier that nobody could have predicted (it was so huge that neighboring countries felt it)
the official cause was released earlier as salt water in mines.

9:50 PM
I understand that. However, you could equally say that you're doing them a huge favor, by keeping them employed. It's not a one-way relationship, or else commerce wouldn't exist.

@cjfaure It happens when the customer is doing things like "Can you give me extra veggies in a bag on the side? They're free right? More please? More please? More please?" Suddenly, the big boss is less inclined to want to retain that customer

@Geobits Economy is confusing ;_;

This guy was basically trying to feed his entire family of four by buying a single 6 inch sandwich and then making salads for his family using the side veggies. We imposed a limitation and he got mad.

@Rainbolt strange balance between satisfaction and actually making a profit :P

@cjfaure Yep, that's why so many MMOs screw it up and kill the fun of the game.

9:52 PM
@Geobits reminds me of the news article about a little kid spending 15k on in-game purchases on his dad's credit card without his knowledge with the excuse "the game is free"

he didn't even get in trouble!
i was angrier than his dad should have been

"My five-year-old burst into tears when I suggested that she'd spent her pocket money for years to come."
I mean cmon... a five year old?
Article (not the same one I read)

Yea, it's hard to get mad at a five year old if you're letting him play unattended. "click the button to get stuff" doesn't turn into "this costs money" at that age.

Oh, and the kid I think you are talking about got reported for fraud by his own father (a policeman)
That seems like trouble enough for me

9:56 PM
@Rainbolt you can't arrest a 5 year old :P
@Rainbolt they're blaming apple?

Not the same kid
The kid that got reported is teenage

@Rainbolt ah
hm, midnight now :P i should go

I've been prompted like 8 times to set up auto pay on my nexus 7 tablet. I always decline, but I do it on Steam anyway. It takes me like two clicks to buy games on steam.

10:10 PM
@Rainbolt must come in handy during Steam sales

11:00 PM
I'm trying to solve my Manufactoria primality test problem... but I'm worried I won't be able to do it.

11:46 PM
0

The Painter's Predicament This would be a code-golf question. This is my first question, so any guidance is appreciated. A painter is commissioned to paint the outer wall of a house shaped as a regular n-gon, with walls 0 through n-1. Each one of these walls must be painted one of 26 colors, re...