@stslavik Re: ground-grappling wristlocks - BJJ's mao de vaca is meant as a submission lock, not a lock for producing other results. Since a skilled grappler will escape if only their wrist is immobilized, standard practice for many (if not most) ground-grappling wristlocks is to immobilize the body through a pin or guard, then lock the wrist for the submission.

These techniques become more similar to a standing "come-along" than, say, kotegaeshi. I've always found it interesting that this is the opposite approach from most standing wristlocks.

@DaveLiepmann This is true... Most small joint locks are prohibited in BJJ, yes?

Not in no-gi tournaments like ADCC, or black-belt level tournaments. I can't recall if California's Pankration rules or the MMA Unified rules count wristlocks as small joints or not...for MMA it would be swell if only fingerlocks were banned.

I bet you'd enjoy Roy Dean's material on them. (Black belts in BJJ, aikido, judo.) Art of the Wristlock, I believe it's called.

Sorry, blue belt and up, not black: ibjjf.org/docs/rulesibjjf1stedition.pdf (page 22)

Then it's important to differentiate between the application for sport (e.g. BJJ) and ground-grappling as a purely fighting art as well.

Sorry... Doing 10,000 things at once. Pretty slow :D

@stslavik I'm sorry, you lost me. Where does the differentiation come into necessity?

In defense from the ground, you're looking to use the minimal effort to combat your opponent. Arresting the whole body first would require exerted effort to control the torso and legs, making arrest of the wrist simply optional (you could just as easily control the arm, elbow, shoulder). When training to lock the wrist from a defense standpoint, you're doing so for two reasons:

1.) the wrist or hand happen to have been offered to you (they are opportunistic).

2.) You are intent to lock the whole body.

Doing so, you make his only relief to move to the stomach, which in turn limits his options further.

You control, therefore, with less overall effort.

I think we're talking past each other.

The ground-grappling wristlocks I've seen are, for the most part, entirely dissimilar from the techniques you describe.

Which are, as I understand your background, from the perspective of BJJ.

For the most part, that's correct. I fail to see how that disqualifies them for self-defense.

Because it's vital that the consideration for self-defense be preservation of energy. When you finish a match in BJJ, you and your partner shake hands and return to the outside of the mat.

(Such was the custom when I was training)

I would tentatively venture to say that most BJJ, and all GJJ, is somewhat concerned with conservation of energy. Usually it's central to their fighting philosophy, no?

Sorry, GJJ?

Gracie jiu-jitsu, Gracie-family branded jiu-jitsu

The material from Helio, Relson, Rorion and others is explicitly branded GJJ and is heavy on philosophy and self-defense content, including standing/striking self-defense

Ah, understood. One could make an argument for that. However, the increased influence of folk wrestling traditions worldwide makes this less certain. In fact, more often than not, BJJ practitioners focus more heavily on building their stamina to compete than on reducing their energy expenditure.

Indeed, but it's branded self-defense, derived from their existing brand of BJJ. They have an agenda – the promotion of their art.

I think Rickson and Marcelo would disagree :)

Everyone's martial art is branded.

Indeed, to an extent. The difference being that they're pushing material to counter the claims that BJJ is ineffective for self-defense. Unfortunately, they further that claim through the material I've seen. This is only to say that the presentation is poor, not that the art can't be made effective (it's the artist, not the art, after all)

Or, more materially, what you're saying amounts to discrediting an entire martial art, derived from judo and Japanese jiu-jitsu, because they take care to distinguish their self-defense-oriented GRACIE jiu-jitsu from what they consider sportive BRAZILIAN jiu-jitsu

No. I make no differentiation between GJJ and BJJ

Fundamentally, the focus of the ground fighting is the same.

I do, however, differentiate from (Kodokan) Judo and koryu jujutsu

So Nova Uniao's pure sport-BJJ, with 100% focus on ADCC and IBJJF competition, with 50/50 and inverted guard, is no different than schools where defending punches from the mount and attaining a clinch against a boxer is the primary material for blue belt? Uh...I disagree?

You're expanding an argument to outside the scope.

Oh - URL for Roy Dean, who I'm sure would be happy to show you some ground grappling wristlocks that are optimized for minimal energy expenditure youtube.com/…

"I make no differentiation between GJJ and BJJ" --> my statement, I don't see what's out of scope...?

I have a sneaking suspicion you're about to say "noted". :)

Petitio Principii

How did I beg the question?

I'm talking in a scope of the generic approach of wrist locks from a fundamental standpoint of sport and self defense.

You're attempting to prove the point by assuming the point already proven, then expanding scope outside the argument.

I use argument in a non-combative term, but rather as a proof of logical points.

I have no problem with your original premise – that is, the inclusion of submission locks.

I simply strive to differentiate between that concept and the control necessary in self-defense.

Your claim that I'm begging the question relies on ignoring my argument that's supposedly "outside of scope".

Further, your argument relies on ad hominem attacks, to wit, that the techniques I'm discussing are "from the perspective of BJJ"

Incorrect. The point is central to my initial argument – the perspective of sport vs. self-defense.

Though I have enjoyed our discussion :)

But, whatever...your argument is that all techniques must conform to your conception. If I find one example, which I have, then your point is rendered null.

Not techniques.

Your point can be both central AND ad hominem. I say "techniques exist", your counter seems merely to be "yeah, but they're BJJ, ergo invalid"

Principles

"Arresting the whole body first would require exerted effort to control the torso and legs, making arrest of the wrist simply optional (you could just as easily control the arm, elbow, shoulder)." --> OK, but this doesn't invalidate causing your opponent to submit by locking their wrist.

Example: In am taken down by a superior wrestler, and am able to mitigate the danger of them being on top of me by using full guard. I apply a gooseneck to their wrist, either breaking it or causing them to give up and stop hitting me.

Interesting. So taking them into full guard, how do you gain control of the wrist?

My two favorite Youtube examples have been taken down, but I recommend reading this thread-- bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=75230&page=13

But to answer your question, attain high guard, wedge their elbow against my hip, and use both hands to lever the wrist back towards their elbow.

And high guard guarantees both a position and leverage to maneuver the elbow and wrist in position?

Surely not. You must agree that there are no guarantees in fighting, as in life.

But it's a nice way to prevent high-amplitude punches, minimize elbows, and threaten turnovers (e.g. flower sweep or pendulum sweep) and submissions (e.g. omoplata or mao de vaca).

Is this then a planned response to this sort of attack?

I can only respond, "where is the picking and choosing?" treetopzencenter.org/UltimatePath.html

Does elbow placement in the hip preclude driving downward into the pelvis?

I started a bounty on this question in order to get some judo-riffic science up in here: martialarts.stackexchange.com/questions/33/…

What's the shortest distance between two points?

Teleportation. BOOM! Science!

@stlavik depends on the surface.

(ask someone with a degree in math a question…)

Ooo, devious answer

@stslavik rather.

I had to answer this question at work once for a project, it got complicated because we were working with the surface of the earth and were interested in multiple paths >_>

That's a hairball of a problem, I bet

Better question (and one to which I actually need an answer) – Anyone know where to get (common store) a lux meter?

Not off the top of my head if amazon doesn't sell ones you need.

Surprisingly, amazon was a great option. Thanks.

I hate amazon with a passion so I generally forget them