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4:36 AM
Read the fabulous manual
Dr. Seuss might say Read the Fneed manual!
(or Fneeded even!)
1 hour later…
5:39 AM
It means to be familiar with something. — Man_From_India 34 mins ago
@Man_From_India Strangely enough, when I hear know my way around, "being familiar with" is not the first thing that comes to my mind.
It's more like the sense of knowing how to do it properly, or at least how to get by.
(to me, I mean)
Though dictionaries seem to define it as "very familiar with".
1 hour later…
6:59 AM
Q: Are the following intransitive verbs, or transitive verbs?

Phoenix When using Cognate objects. eg. "I dreamt a strange dream". Is the verb intransitive because 'dreamt' doesn't need the object here, or is it a Transitive because we have an object for the verb. When adding preposition. eg. "All his friends laughed at him" - Transitive or Intransitive and why? Wh...

It should be obvious with one-word verbs.
However, it seems like even native speakers don't always get it right when it's a phrasal verb.
But is it? Everybody died a gruesome death has no passive equivalent: *A gruesome death was died by all.
(Which signals a hint that it's probably not that important.)
Cognate object constructions need to be dealt with on an individual basis because of their peculiar characteristics
@snailboat Nice counterexample!
But the cognate object question needs to be asked separately from the verb-preposition idiom question
7:03 AM
There's no sense in asking them together
It could've been a great question on ELL.
And the cost one needs to be separate too
None of those three have much to do with one another
BTW, good morning! :P
(I wonder if it'd be understandable if I said Good month!)
7:07 AM
And no, it wouldn't've been, but now that you wondered it is :-)
I don't think it makes sense to ask whether laugh at is transitive since I don't recognize it as a constituent, but I know other people do
> Is it correct to say i am she?
Yes. The predicate nominative "she" follows the copula ( "linking verb") am. Many people will say " I am her" but it is incorrect because her is an object form, not a predicate nominative, and thus cannot be linked to the subject "I" through the copula.
Le sigh
I think, colloquially, "I'm her" sounds more natural.
7:10 AM
I am she isn't part of naturally acquired English
@snailboat We have at least Macmillan Dictionary to blame, if it's wrong. :-)
It's a weird-sounding thingy some people say because they're under the impression they're supposed to for some reason
So we have to acknowledge it as something some people say, but at the same time, it's pretty ridiculous sounding
nods -- I think I saw someone posted on ELL that "Me either" is wrong last night.
I logged in purely to respond to that
7:12 AM
Couldn't resist :-)
Ah! I haven't checked that out!
What's the question again?
Never mind. Found it!
I like it that "Me either" has its own entry in Macmillan Dictionary. :-)
> used when someone else has made a negative statement and you mean it is also true of you. This is considered to be incorrect by speakers of British English who would say me neither
Maybe me either is lenition of the /n/ between two of the same vowel, so it occurred as a sound change without a shift in meaning, but speakers of dialects where the sound change never occurred (perhaps because they favor the other pronunciation of either?) are confused because of the apparent polarity mismatch
Oh, yes. Saying /mi ˈnaɪðər/ is a bit weird.
Yay Macmillan!
I would generally say neither I am her nor I am she. I'd say That's me! :-)
7:18 AM
In the right context I'd say I am her, though
It's still marginal, I think
I wonder if people who wrote "I'm her" is incorrect will really say "I'm she" (or "I'm he") in their real life.
You can probably find someone who does. I don't know those people, myself
Some people still say This is she or the like on the phone
7:22 AM
It's definitely weird to do so
But they can say what they like :-)
Sometimes linguistics papers have titles that are incomprehensible unless you already know what they're talking about
(Wait, did I say "sometimes"?)
"Is the language faculty non-linguistic?" I wonder how many people can guess what that even means
7:37 AM
@snailboat I don't know, but I guess I may not find the answer in the paper. :D
If you search for that question in quotes you should get a PDF you can read if you're interested
Lots of papers have titles that don't make sense unless you've either read the paper or already know what they're talking about, I guess
I'm fond of Anti-Homophony Blocking and its Productivity in Transparadigmatic Relations, which is about when you can contract stuff
I have this weird feeling of being watched.
Out of some 170 flags, this is the first I have seen read "pending".
@snailboat Phonological grammar. That's interestimg!
@Jolenealaska My pending flag became declined.
7:52 AM
I have 3 declined (I think)
Few days ago, maybe. But I just saw it yesterday.
I think I've got 3 or 4.
In certain traditions phonology is considered a component of grammar
7:54 AM
I think I've got like 160 helpful flags and 10 declined. Not sure, too lazy to check :-)
Especially if on a certain basis with the mods??
2 of 3 anyway.
One is a bff.
Good morning, @Araucaria!
Morning @dam
Morning all :)
Good new month!
7:58 AM
That's our new greeting. Damkerng came up with it :-)
@snailboat It's supposed to be used on the first day of a month. :D
t-10 seconds...
<luv it>
Good month, @Jolenealaska!
8:00 AM
ty ty
Good month!
I have stories of longing for May...
But not today
Sneaky fail!~!! :)
Back soon, guys. :)
Month everyone!
Are you still allowed to pinch or punch people after they've already said month?
8:04 AM
Month! -- (Hey, this is sort of fun!)
@Araucaria Oh! Was that common?
We have a tradiition called "a pinch and a punch for the first of the month" where for some reason it's socially acceptable to give your friends or siblings a pinch and a friendly punch on the first day of a month. However, you need to follow this up with "and no returns" otherwise they can get you back ...
@Araucaria Cool!
8:10 AM
Yes. Speculative.
Wait, what?
Or rather, month!
This "month" isn't as cool as hullo though
Don't you mean munth?
I could mean that.
he he
@M.A.Ramezani Good month, my chemling!
"Still not as cool as hullo" MAR tells himself.
It's June already.
What did they say about June?
8:16 AM
@M.A.Ramezani But you can use "man" with "munth", but you can really use it with "hullo"
Month man!
@Araucaria Another reason hullo is cooler.
@M.A.Ramezani Actually, yes, you're right ...
It doesn't need any, say, "complementary words" to look cool.
@M.A.Ramezani I think "hullo" can be a bit ambiguous though ...
@Araucaria Yeah...Someone in chat asked me what it meant.
8:21 AM
good morning
Wow, it's busy round here ....
@fahdijbeli Good mourning...Sorry, yesterday I had no idea that it must have been listen for...
@dam you want to chat about schwa? or rather /e/ and [e]?
@Araucaria Not that busy yet.
@Araucaria Hehe!
no problem @M.A.Ramezani thanks at all ^^
8:23 AM
@Araucaria I'd prefer later.
@DamkerngT. sure. Maybe we should set up a room?
Here is fine. :-)
@fahdijbeli Well, my mistake mostly arose from the fact that your article was too technical for me, which resulted in my considering all of those ports and traffic and stuff as simple objects like apple etc.
My current understanding is that it's about phonemic vs. phonetic notations.
@Dam cool :-)
8:25 AM
The phonetic ones are supposed to work universally, across languages, I think.
@M.A.Ramezani ah yes your are right :D
@M.A.Ramezani are you chemical ?
@fahdijbeli Yes. I'm a chemical.
My answer was written before I learned about phonemic vs. phonetic notations. It was purely written from a learner's point of view.
@M.A.Ramezani good nice to meet you :)
More precisely, I'm an inflammable chair cyclohexane.
Nice to meetcha too!
Oh @Dam @Dam @Dam...
8:28 AM
There's a second answer to "behold! A new chatroom approaches" and in it, @Pazzo's really making some points.
Except last one, all of them are valid.
@DamkerngT. Yes, exactly.
@DamkerngT. But phonemic transcription doesn't work across languages though
Here guys...For your ease of use:
A: Behold! A new chatroom approaches

pazzoThis answer is based on actual experience. Today I went into an ELL Chat Room. I had no idea which one of the two I was entering; I just went where there were some people. However, I had no idea which of the two chat rooms I was in. And I think this is because the descriptions of the two ELL C...

@M.A.Ramezani I find myself in the wrong room sometimes, because I think, like most people, I don't read manuals either. So what to expect from me for reading the description. :-)
People react to they "see" more than what they "read", I think.
@Araucaria nods
I think I'm supposed to revise my old answers, but it's too scary for me!
I think off-topic chat should be okay. Interacting in English is part of language learning, even if the topic of discussion isn't always the English language. People should feel free to interact here without worrying too much :-)
8:34 AM
@DamkerngT. You mean the schwa one?
@Araucaria Including that one. :D
@snailboat In fact, going off topic is what chat is about!
I took a quick glance last night, and I spotted several grammatical mistakes.
But that's not the most important things.
Well, what I want to say is, I don't think of my answers as mine. If anyone see errors, including minor technical ones, I hope that he or she will feel free to correct my answers.
@DamkerngT. It's a good post!!
8:36 AM
@DamkerngT. I don't feel free.
But just to be safe, we should declare snail pictures officially on-topic
@Araucaria I think the notations could use an edit.
@snailboat Cat photos, too! :D
@snailboat Don't worry.
I remember SE guys said we should try to be on topic.
@DamkerngT. I think maybe the (not) opening your mouth from e is the most important bit :)
Anyway, having 1597 tabs only for this window makes my browser sort of crawling.
8:37 AM
We could slip away sometimes most of the times.
@Araucaria Ah, I see. I think I have an argument about that point. :D
I think I know what you mean. But the bottom-line is probably like it's very difficult to describe pronunciations in writing.
I'm pretty sure that we need to drop our jaw a little.
have 1 199 email not read how I can make all as read without load page per page -_-
I can make only the "mmm..." sound when my upper and lower jaws come to contact one another, as in a perfectly closed mouth.
@fahdijbeli You wouldn't want to know the number of unread emails in my mailbox. :P
lol I want to know :p
@Dam Do you mean drop it from the vowel in "bet"?
8:41 AM
Guys calm down. If you mean the almost 10000 unread emails in my primary gmail account, I have the situation under control.
@Araucaria I mean from the absolute closed-position. Hmm... I think it's probably about the same amount for "bet".
@M.A.Ramezani Almost? No, it passed that number a long time ago.
@DamkerngT. 100k?
But...but you don't have the situation under control.
It's not that many, though.
It's something like, above control.
TA-DA! I knew someone was gonna come in and question the descriptions, mainly because I and @Damkerng were dubious about the description. We might change it, so you might come to the chat and join us so that we can come up worth something actually understandable. :P About your second point, I'd say a big meh. SE said chat's are better if they remain on topic, but everywhere chats can slip away from following the rules most of the times. Is it not that an ELL can improve their English by chatting something, even if it's off topic? — M.A.Ramezani 54 secs ago
I'll admit that I read almost none of the newsletters and investment reports in my mailbox. :D
8:44 AM
Go pray to God that I didn't reveal your cat photos @Dam.
But I'm pretty sure they're just in the process of language learning.
Thanks for not mentioning that. :D
I've tried that!
But to my disappointment, my cat can't count 1 to 3.
See? When you upload an image, you see the words upload and cancel and from my computer etc. You're expanding your vocab span.
@DamkerngT. For most standard Am or GB speakers "bet", /bet/, is the same height as the weak form of "but", /bət/, for example :)
@DamkerngT. 1 2 3. I heard him say it.
@Araucaria nods -- I guessed as much, because I can only hear that much.
8:47 AM
Just so you guys know, if @Pazzo comes, we probably are gonna talk about changing the description of the room(s).
@M.A.Ramezani Ah, bad cat! "Why don't you do that when I'm around?" a robot asks his cat.
@DamkerngT. But! It's lower than [bet]!!
@DamkerngT. He's scared of you.
Wait, what is the word for [bet]?
@DamkerngT. So both /bet/ and /bət/ are lower than [bet]!
8:49 AM
You mean "bet", when you write /bet/, right?
This is what the cat sees when @Dam asks him to talk from one to three.
@M.A.Ramezani That's not a cat!
@Araucaria Oh, I see. I remember that you mentioned another e which looks like a 3 but in the reverse.
@DamkerngT. Yes, I'm using /bet/ for the English word "bet".
@DamkerngT. I don't know of any word [bet] in any language, but there might be one!
@DamkerngT. That transcription in [bet] is using the symbols to describe the sounds from the IPA.
@DamkerngT. But when I write /bet/ that transcription is using symbols from the IPA to describe certain phonemes in English where everyone recognises the phoneme I want to describe by the symbol I use. But the /e/ used for describing the English phoneme doesn't map neatly onto the ideal sounds of the international IPA chart
9:00 AM
... (cont) so there's a problem. Which symbol from the international IPA should we use for describing the vowel in "bed"? The most common realisation of the vowel is inbetween [e] and [ɜ]. So most academics chose to use the symbol "/e/", because it fits better with normal English writing than "/ɜ/", so for example it's better for students learning English.
I vote for the 3 looking one.
It looks more Greek.
I'm going to use only /../ notations in that post of mine.
Ha, so you wanna make it scary? Bring it on!
@dam ... So actually it's the same height as a schwa. Problem is that if you look at an international IPA chart you'll see the international [e] as being quite high so that to get from there to schwa you'd need to drop your jaw. But that isn't the same kind of sound that we use in the word "bed".
@DamkerngT. Don't knowif that makes any sense?
9:05 AM
My jaw hurts now by saying so much schwa.
> (Actually, there are much more subtle details. For example, most modern dictionaries will also transcribe some of these unstressed syllables as [ɪ] /ɪ/, but that deserves a different question.)
@DamkerngT. Probably want to think about it a bit before diving in. Maybe you could find an International IPA chart (quadrilateral thingie) with the English vowels on it?
@DamkerngT. Just putting the kettle on ...
> (There are exceptions such the [i] sound (e.g. bit, spit), or the [e] sound (e.g. bet, set) which will be shifted to the ɪ sound, rather than all the way to the schwa.)
^That's at least another part that needs to be fixed.
@Araucaria What is kettle?
Wondering if that kettle was for me or he was talking about himself...
Maybe I stretched my assertion a little too far, and this particular sound can vary among dialects: "(There are exceptions such the [i] sound (e.g. bit, spit), or the [e] sound (e.g. bet, set) which will be shifted to the ɪ sound, rather than all the way to the schwa.)"
Suppose that if I fixed it as:
> (There are exceptions such the [i] sound (e.g. bit, spit), or the [ɜ] sound (e.g. bet, set) which will be shifted to the ɪ sound, rather than all the way to the schwa.)
Is that really correct?
I think maybe this is more correct:
> (There are exceptions such as the short "i" sound (e.g. bit, spit) which is pronounced as /ɪ/, or the [ɜ] sound (e.g. bet, set) which will be shifted to the ɪ sound, rather than to the schwa.)
@Dam A kettle is what we use over here to boil water to make tea! It's like an electric jug :)
@Araucaria I thought you were talking about some symbols. :D
9:13 AM
@Araucaria My god!
So you're a teaman @arau?
Another edit:
@DamkerngT., @RAM yes, we drink 185, 000, 000 cups of tea a day in the UK
> (There are exceptions such as the short "i" sound (e.g. bit, spit) which is transcribed as /ɪ/ in dictionaries, or the [ɜ] sound (e.g. bet, set) which will be shifted to the ɪ sound, rather than to the schwa.)
and there's only about 58,000,000 of us :)
I'm starting to like UK.
9:15 AM
@DamkerngT. Do you use the term "function words"?
No. What are they?
@DamkerngT. So we can split the words we use (very broadly) into two types
You mean "operate word"?
(I usually invent my own terms. :P)
@DamkerngT. There's the kind of words that you'd look up in a dictionary or learn in a vocabulary lesson (re "operate words" perhaps, but I don't know that term) ... (continued)
Like those not absolutely necessary words, but they have to be there to make things grammatical.
9:18 AM
@DamkerngT. And there's the words that you study in grammar lessons
I was thinking about hydroxyl... Function words, functional groups. They look the same.
I think by "function words" you mean things like prepositions, modal verbs, etc.
@DamkerngT. Exactly!! :)
Yes, that's my "operate (or operative) word".
Without these words, my language won't operate. :P
@DamkerngT. What do you call the other ones?
9:19 AM
Or ops.
@Araucaria The other ops.
Hmm... just words.
Let's use the standard terminology "function words".
@DamkerngT. Ok and we can call the others "lexical words"
That sounds like a boring chemistry name.
I'd stick to ops.
As I understand, I think almost all the time, all function words will be unstressed.
In English, I mean.
9:23 AM
@DamkerngT.As a generalisation that's a good description
Guys sorry to interrupt the word-finding act for ops, but I need you to do an identification for me, and quick.
@M.A.Ramezani ?
What is Martin cooking?
You guys look like fun!
Ah, I don't know that.
9:24 AM
Welcome back @Jolenealaska!
@Jolenealaska Hullo!
Are those bananas or sausages?
That looks spooky familiar.
@Jolenealaska Hi!
9:25 AM
@M.A.Ramezani Google seems to convince me that it's a show on BBC.
I know just who would know!!!
No no, that's our Martin.
9:27 AM
@DamkerngT. My god! How did you liken that horrible Hunter Games face to Martin?
Anyway, I think it must be either banana or some kind of sausage.
Yes, because grilling banana makes so much sense.
Judging from Martin's name, I guess the latter.
I seriously hope they're not bananas
9:28 AM
He's German, but he's in Japan now.
@DamkerngT. So, those function words often have two forms, a weak form and a strong form. So for example we get /kæn/ and /kən/ for the function word "can". Usually we use the weak form when the word is unstressed, (but not always, for example if the word is an auxiliary and it doesn't have a complement then it has to be a strong form even if the word isn't stressed), right?
@Araucaria Yes!
@DamkerngT. Cool (continued)
@snailboat กล้วยปิ้ง (roasted banana) is popular over here. :D
He said I miss my sausages back there.
How did he get his hands on sausage?
9:31 AM
@DamkerngT. With most lexical words there is no weak form. So for a one syllable lexical word like "bat" there is no weak form. Whether the word is stressed or not doesn't make much difference to the quality of the vowel. It will always be /bæt/ with a full STRAP vowel.
@Araucaria Is get a function word or a lexical word?
Oh, @Dam turn out he was cooking Thuri-something sausage:
Thüringer redirects here. Thüringer can also refer to a breed of rabbit. Thuringian sausage, or in German Thüringer Rostbratwurst (short: Roster), is a unique sausage from the German state of Thuringia which has PGI status under EU law. == History == Thuringian sausage has been produced for hundreds of years. The oldest known reference to a Thuringian sausage is located in the Thuringian State Archive in Rudolstadt in a transcript of a bill from an Arnstadt convent from the year 1404. The oldest known recipe dates from 1613 and is kept in the State Archive in Weimar, another is listed in the ...
@M.A.Ramezani Ahh... Never tried one.
They look delicious.
@DamkerngT. Arguably it's kind of inbetweenish, but in SSBE (standard British English) that word doesn't have a weak form.
9:34 AM
@DamkerngT. But of course most lexical words that are more than one syllable, will have word-internal stressed and unstressed syllables (cont),
@DamkerngT. and those syllables that aren't stressed within that word will tend to have weak vowels in, for example schwa or KIT /ɪ/.
@DamkerngT. But that doesn't mean that you can put a weak vowel in any unstressed syllable in a lexical word! It all depends on the word.
I think you're right.
I wish I could find words by their sounds.
@DamkerngT. So there can't be a weak vowel in "halo"
@DamkerngT. OK Google...
Ah, got one.
How would you pronounce helipad?
Or how would you pronounce Wynken, Blynken and Nod?
9:45 AM
I'd put stress on li I guess.
This is one of my weaknesses.
Ah, but li is unstressed.
@DamkerngT. In RP it would be /'helipæd/. But there might be some Englishes where it would be /'heləpæd/ for example. It wouldn't surprise me if that was the standard Gen AM pronunciation, but you'd need to look it up!
I'd pronounce things correctly usually, but then I won't know which syllable I stressed.
I'm pretty sure that some speakers would pronounce Wynken, Blynken as /wɪnkɪn/, /blɪnkɪn/ while some others would pronounce it as /wɪnkən/, /blɪnkən/.
I'm not very sure, but I think it's also possible that some speakers may pronounce it as /'wɪnken/, /'blɪnken/.
@DamkerngT. That would be /'wɪŋkən 'blɪŋkən ən 'nɒd/ but arguably we could also miss out those schwas in the names and just have a syllabic /n/ ...
9:49 AM
Ah, yes. I should've used /ŋ/.
@DamkerngT. Or yes, quite right some speakers will have a kit vowel ,/ɪ/ there instead.
@DamkerngT. But I don't think anyone in Gen Am or BG would put a /e/ in there though.
@DamkerngT. Like you've been hinting at there's a lot of free variation between schwa and kit in unstressed syllables. So you get kit or schwa in the first syllable of "believe" for example.
Oh, actually, believe is a good example!
I'll use it instead of my old examples.
My latest edit:
> (There are exceptions such as the short "i" sound (e.g. bit, spit) which is transcribed as /ɪ/ in dictionaries, or other unstressed syllables of what you may think they should be pronounced as /e/ or /i/ (e.g. the second syllable in helipad, or the first syllables believe; [ɜ] in IPA) which will be pronounced as /ɪ/ rather than the schwa sound by some speakers.)
Hmm... come to think of it, I can remember now why I wrote it that way though it's not technically correct (about the unstressed lexical words).
@DamkerngT. Erm yes, almost! but that isn't [ɜ], it's [ə] or [ɪ] :)

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