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Jim G.
Jim G.
12:19 AM
@YannisRizos My deep dark secret is that I love all these NC questions with a passion. - I actually thought that was the case, and I thought that was why many times you were almost looking to give borderline questions the benefit of the doubt (a good thing).
 
 
1 hour later…
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
1:45 AM
@JimG. Yeah, I wouldn't really discuss my actual deep dark secrets in chat, would I? ;P
 
Jim G.
Jim G.
2:40 AM
^^^ Seems like a well-meaning user, but quite frankly all four of his questions seem better suited for pm.stackexchange.com.
 
Aron Lindberg
Aron Lindberg
Hi, I asked a question here: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/170660/…, which was closed. I'm trying to understand what is important for open source developers to learn about open source that researchers could help them with - how can I formulate this as a question suitable for SE?
 
user20683
@AronLindberg let me think about how that question can be improved, it may take me a bit, I'm quite tired.
 
Aron Lindberg
Aron Lindberg
@WorldEngineer My intention is to figure out what "social/behavioral problems" are on the minds of open source developers/project managers/community managers. That way I can make sure that the academic research I engage in, is relevant to members of this community.
 
user20683
@AronLindberg like use us in a study?
 
Aron Lindberg
Aron Lindberg
@WorldEngineer "use you in a study"? I don't know what you mean, but I think of it as studying a community of people engaged in a specific set of practices leading to usable code. Is a researcher, I am trying to understanding how this community works, what practices are used.
 
user20683
2:53 AM
@AronLindberg I'd recommend looking at journals covering open source software development or programming psychology. Maybe talk to some large OSS projects. This site isn't a good example. Many of us are not OSS people.
 
Aron Lindberg
Aron Lindberg
@WorldEngineer I already know what the academic literature on open source thinks are important questions. I also want to understand what practitioners in this community thinks are important questions
 
user20683
@AronLindberg that's polling, it doesn't work by default in the Q&A portion of the site.
 
Aron Lindberg
Aron Lindberg
@WorldEngineer I understand that - that's why I am asking here for ideas on how to reframe the question. Thanks for your suggestions.
 
 
4 hours later…
ento
ento
7:22 AM
[promo] If you're learning Lojban, or want to speak a machine-parsable unambiguous language (obxkcd), please help this Area 51 proposal come to life.
6
Lojban Language & Usage

Proposed Q&A site for students, teachers, and linguists covering all aspects of the Lojban language from grammar to word usage. Lojban is a machine-parsable, constructed spoken language with a community of around two thousand people.

Currently in definition.

 
 
3 hours later…
TRiG
TRiG
10:23 AM
0
Q: Does a programmer really need college?

Dfranc3373I am currently a junior in college, however I have had multiple jobs programming since high school. Currently I work programming at a company part time using many different languages that I have learned the past few years. I recently sat down with a advisor and discovered with the classes I have...

education resume college job-searching
Misread this as Does a programmer really need coffee?
I'm currently half-way through my morning cup thereof.
 
 
2 hours later…
Morons
Morons
12:11 PM
@YannisRizos This is currently the most active question on p.se
4
Q: Why it is necessary to to test my iPhone app on actual iPhone device

NSSI developed one application for iPhone and now I want it on App Store. So many my iOS geek friends told me to test it on actual device i.e. on iPhone. So I wonder that why it is necessary to to test my iPhone app on actual iPhone device though they (Apple) have given "simulator" which is near ab...

testing iphone ios
makes you want to just roll you eyes at the asker... Real world testing is 101 shit.
This is not a question that should ever come from a "professional"
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
12:29 PM
@Morons Heh, I got both notifications, for your Meta question and your ping here, at exactly the same time. Was a bit confusing at first.
 
gnat
gnat
1:15 PM
@Morons simulator vs real device testing isn't that "101" to me. In one of my past projects, an important part of commercial success was a careful balancing between simulator and device testing (which essentially boils down to permanently re-asking questions like why on device?)...
...thing is, simulator testing is much MUCH cheaper and much easier for automation. If one blindly sticks to on-device-only, their releases will be substantially later and more expensive than those of competitors
 
Rachel
Rachel
@Morons In regards to your meta question, that line in the FAQ is the programmers Tag Line. I've made a suggestion in the past to change it, but it got heavily downvoted and closed as "not-constructive"
-9
Q: Programmers tag line is misleading. Can we rephrase it?

RachelI think the Programmers tag line is misleading when mixed with our site name, and that it implies on first glance that the site is about "Programmers [interested in conceptual questions about software development]". Since the tag line is a summary of the site for the SE site description, search ...

discussion site-definition
 
Morons
Morons
1:37 PM
@gnat Your question about "HOW MUCH device testing" is needed is entirely different than "IS device testing" Needed
@Rachel How do we know if the asker is a "Professional"? . If that is the case, than i go back to my original thinking of just dropping the word..
 
Rachel
Rachel
@Morons I don't think we should have to know... the site is for professional programmers, so if the question is related to professional software development, its on topic :)
We don't require that the question asker be a professional programmer, only that the question itself be relevant to professional programmers
 
Morons
Morons
@Rachel Can you give an example of a question that would be relevant to programmers but not to professional programmers?
I simply don't see any distinction here..
 
Rachel
Rachel
Its easier to think of it the other way around. For example, programmers who program for a hobby instead of professionally may not be interested in the software development life cycle, unit testing, version control, team dynamics, etc
 
gnat
gnat
@Morons sure. "IS device testing needed would be a useless yes/no question with equally useless answer yes. Work starts when one asks why, picking the reasons to choose between on-device and simulator testing. That's what I meant when I wrote "Why it is necessary..." isn't that 101
 
Morons
Morons
1:54 PM
@gnat lets agree to disagree. :)
 
Rachel
Rachel
We don't want "only professional-level questions", but we do want all questions to be relevant to professional programmers
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel actually we only want professional level questions.
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos In that case, you should update the FAQ to clarify that, as I don't think its stated anywhere
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Nah, it's pretty clear as it is.
 
Morons
Morons
@Rachel That's my point, is no question that is relevant to a professionals but not a hobbist. (hence that would off topic)
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
1:56 PM
Programmers — Stack Exchange is a site for professional programmers...
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos Right, professional programmers. Not "professional questions"
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel That doesn't make any sense.
 
Rachel
Rachel
"Programmers — Stack Exchange is a site for professional programmers who are interested in getting expert answers on conceptual questions about software development."
the site is for professional programmers interested in getting expert answers
Nowhere does it say the site is for professional questions
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Come on, don't pull this crap with your weird definitions again...
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Because questions can't be professional...
People are professionals.
 
Morons
Morons
1:58 PM
@Rachel We dropped the "Expert" questions but not for answers?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Questions have answers that require education and/or experience.
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
We won't check anyone's credentials at the door, but the site is for professionals. Everyone who participates is expected to act like a professional, even if they are not.
 
Morons
Morons
Yes, and ask professional level questions
 
Rachel
Rachel
"Professional Programmers" = Someone who programs for a living.

"Interested in getting expert answers" = Asking an expert
Meaning if you program for a living, come here and ask a question to get an answer from an expert
It doesn't say you have to ask "professional-level questions"
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel When did anyone say it's about expert questions?
 
Rachel
Rachel
2:00 PM
5 mins ago, by Yannis Rizos
@Rachel actually we only want professional level questions.
 
gnat
gnat
if the question can't get answers relevant to professional programmers it will die as off-topic. As far as I can tell current FAQ wording covers that sufficiently, there's no need to add formal requirements for questions
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Your point being?
 
Morons
Morons
9
Q: Removing "expert" from the site description?

Rachel Programmers - Stack Exchange is for expert programmers who are interested in conceptual questions on software development. Can we consider removing the word "expert" from our site description? I've seen a few meta question that quote our FAQ description, and I feel it gives the wrong impr...

discussion status-completed faq-proposed
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos That's not in the FAQ
 
Morons
Morons
I say we put the word "Expert" back in!!! But also leave Professional!!
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
2:02 PM
@Rachel Professional level questions == Thoroughly researched questions, no one ever said expert questions, stop making stuff up. The question might be trivial, but you are required to put some effort in it regardless.
 
Morons
Morons
@YannisRizos check out think.. it was once there , then removed
 
Rachel
Rachel
@Morons To be fair, that question was back from the site's early days when the community and scope were different
 
Morons
Morons
@YannisRizos @Rachel stop bickering, you guys are like and old married couple ..
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Morons Old?
;P
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos I don't see anything in the FAQ stating your question has to be something that's been thoroughly researched either :)
@Morons lol hey there's nothing wrong with speaking your mind or disagreeing with someone
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
2:04 PM
8 mins ago, by Yannis Rizos
Programmers — Stack Exchange is a site for professional programmers...
 
Rachel
Rachel
Right, the site is for programmers who program for a living
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
Either you are a professional, which means you aren't lazy and you don't ask for free help without first trying to solve your own problem, or you are not.
 
Rachel
Rachel
...
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
...also the requirement is in the "how to ask" guidelines, and iterated all over Meta.
@Rachel What, now I need to explain what professional means?
 
Morons
Morons
I'll start a meta later, i'll ask people to vote and comment with the "professional standard" in mind
 
Rachel
Rachel
2:08 PM
That sentence just screams the "elitist" attitude I've come to hate on this site :p Its like saying that asking for help is lazy and unprofessional
But I'm done arguing with you, I have work to do
I'm not going to change your mind so oh well
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
professional

a: of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession
b: engaged in one of the learned professions
c (1): characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2): exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
 
Morons
Morons
like every thing else we will let the community come to a census on exactly what that is (over time, by voteing)
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
> characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession - businesslike manner in the workplace...
 
Rachel
Rachel
From the top google link (wikipedia) "A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialized set of tasks and to complete them for a fee."
 
Morons
Morons
@YannisRizos that's why i only asked 1 question.. I'm not lazy :)
 
Rachel
Rachel
2:10 PM
I think most people consider that the definition of "professional programmers" when they read our tag line
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
Professional
A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialized set of tasks and to complete them for a fee. The traditional professions were doctors, engineers, lawyers, architects and commissioned military officers. Today, the term is applied to nurses, accountants, educators, scientists, technology experts, social workers, artists, librarians (information professionals) and many more. The term is also used in sports to differentiate amateur players from those who are paid—hence "professional footballer" and "professional golfer". Many companies include the word professional in the...
 
Morons
Morons
@YannisRizos in meta you said "The definition of professional is different for everyone"
LOL
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
Read the "definition" section
 
Morons
Morons
3
A: Should we change the Description of this Site in the FAQ?

Yannis RizosHow about we start enforcing our standards instead? You've dropped a question in chat that you clearly feel isn't up to our standards, yet you didn't vote to close it, flag it, or down vote it. Why do you expect other people to enforce our standards if you don't?

 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Morons The dictionary definition is the same and it's pretty simple.
How each one of us interprets that, well...
 
Morons
Morons
2:11 PM
"different for everyone"
as is no 2 people share the same definition.
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Morons Ok come on, now you are being silly. Of course I didn't mean the dictionary definition...
> Reasonable work morale and motivation. Having interest and desire to do a job well as holding positive attitude towards the profession are important elements in attaining a high level of professionalism.
 
Morons
Morons
i know :)
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel From the same wikipedia article you quoted...
 
Rachel
Rachel
I'm just saying, if you want to outlaw non-professional-level questions, then say so in the FAQ. The current wording of our site description and faq reads to me

"This site is for people who program for a living and who want to get an expert answer about conceptual software development".
That doesn't translate to "this site is for professional-level questions about conceptual software development" in most cases
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Perhaps it doesn't translate for you. But now you know.
Also all our requirements for questions, "professional level" or not are spelled out in the "how to ask" guidelines that all users are prompted to read before they ask their first question.
The two documents together clearly explain what the site is about. To people who actually read them. Most people don't, unfortunately.
 
Rachel
Rachel
2:20 PM
@YannisRizos Sorry to break it to you, but the How to Ask section of our FAQ says nothing of the sort
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel That's not the how to ask I'm talking about
That's "How do I ask", not "How to ask", and I never said "How to ask" is in the FAQ...
2 mins ago, by Yannis Rizos
The two documents together clearly explain what the site is about. To people who actually read them. Most people don't, unfortunately.
Two documents...
 
Rachel
Rachel
Also on an unrelated note, our FAQ states:

"If your question would be of interest to …

Professional and enthusiast programmers, ask on Stack Overflow."
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Yes, Stack Overflow caters to enthusiasts. We don't.
 
Morons
Morons
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos what two documents? I only know of the faq, which does not specify that questions have to be professional level
 
Morons
Morons
2:23 PM
@YannisRizos to Rachels point, the 2 sections should match
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Please cut the crap with "professional level". The site is for professionals, that's enough. If you act as a professional and do your due diligence prior to asking, you'll be fine. If not, oh well...
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos I'm only trying to make a point because of your comment
30 mins ago, by Yannis Rizos
@Rachel actually we only want professional level questions.
The site does not say Programmers is only for professional-level questions. If it should, update the FAQ
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Yes, I was using the terminology you were using. Sorry about that.
@Rachel No it shouldn't. Because you're still under the impression that professional level means expert. It doesn't.
 
Rachel
Rachel
Well my point was that "Why it is necessary to to test my iPhone app on actual iPhone device" is something that is relevant to professional programmers, and should not be closed as not meeting the "professional standard" of this site like Morons said.... thats what we were talking about in the first place :p
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
It just means don't be lazy and do some research prior to asking. Trivial questions, even homework, are perfectly fine provided you tried at least a little to solve your own damn problem, as a professional should.
@Rachel I never said anything about that question.
 
Rachel
Rachel
2:27 PM
I got it now, you just saw something and responded without reading further to find out the context of what was being said :)
And here I was thinking you were trying to join in on the existing conversation about that question....
 
Morons
Morons
@Rachel That SHOULD be closed
and not meeting a min level of cpomlexity
 
Rachel
Rachel
@Morons And I would disagree :)
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing opinions, just don't hold it against the person or try to force your opinion on them
I'd rather be surrounded by people who disagreed with me than those who agree with me anyways
I learn more that way
 
Morons
Morons
anything that thought in a high school comp-sci class or college intro class should be off topic as too low level
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Hm, if that's the case, may I ask why you still haven't learned and parade that closed Meta question of yours?
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos Because I still strongly feel that the site's tag line is misleading when combined with the site's name
And I'm not going to change my opinion on that just because people disagree with me unless someone offers me proof otherwise
 
Morons
Morons
2:30 PM
All my meta questions get downvoted!
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Do not change your opinion. Stop spamming your Meta questions everywhere.
 
Rachel
Rachel
@Morons I don't see anything about that in the FAQ though
@YannisRizos Well they're the ones that I can find the easiest, and since he was proposing a change to the tag line I thought I'd bring it up since it seemed relevant
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
Different thinks. I respect your opinion, and I love it that you don't give up. But after a point, you got to realize that enough is enough.
 
Morons
Morons
I link to my -12 Meta question in my profie
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos And you have to realize that the meta opinion is not necessarily the community opinion
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
2:31 PM
@Morons The pledge?
 
Morons
Morons
yup
i kept to it too :)
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Consensus is not majority vote.
 
Rachel
Rachel
Take a look at what happens to the "featured" questions that show up on the main page. Many times my answeres are downvoted initially by the meta crowd, then get a steady stream of upvotes as the regular community users see them
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
21 secs ago, by Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Consensus is not majority vote.
 
Morons
Morons
but some moderators delete my comments! there by making me a lier!
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
2:32 PM
@Morons Where?
 
Morons
Morons
it really boils my blood!
If i look at my downvotes.. i don't see my comments..
let me check
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
btw suspending a mod doesn't work, we can un-suspend ourselves.
 
Morons
Morons
i take it back.. the comments are there
 
C. Ross
C. Ross
> Why not a database? – Michael-O
> isn't a database an internet thing? –
headdesk
← 3 messages moved from The Assembly
-1
Q: File Handling Alternative in Java

Umer FarooqI was wondering does java provides any way to implement programs stated below without file handling. Lets say I want to make a program for hospital patients record or a phonebook in which I can add, delete and edit patient name, NIC number and phone number.. Making such a program with file handl...

java file-handling
I know it's from that other site, but wow ...
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@C.Ross Well nowadays that everything's on the cloud, a database is an internet thing ;P
 
Rachel
Rachel
2:39 PM
@C.Ross lol I think the DBAs on DBA.SE would get a kick out of that :)
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel That's an "enthusiast level" question :P
on a perhaps more serious note, I really don't want Programmers to turn into what SO is today (quality wise)...
we get a fair share of crap, but nothing compares to what the more active SO tags get...
This is too long to read, consider revising, there's a lot of irrelevant stuff in there. You might miss good answers because people won't bother to read all that. — Yannis Rizos 4 hours ago
He completely ignored me. 56 views later, not a single upvote. People should learn not to ignore me... It's a good question, but it's hidden under tons of crap.
 
Morons
Morons
what question?
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
0
Q: MVVM - how to make creating viewmodels at runtime less painfull

Mr HappyI apologize for the long question, it reads a bit as a rant, but I promise it's not! I've summarized my question(s) below In the MVC world, things are straightforward. The Model has state, the View shows the Model, and the Controller does stuff to/with the Model (basically), a controller has no ...

c# design wpf mvvm
actually I'm not so sure there's a good question in there, I only scanned through it. It seems that there might be a good question in there...
 
Morons
Morons
he did a summary.
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel btw, keep in mind that I have some vague idea if people visit the FAQ. I can't know if they read it or not, just if they visited. We've argued the FAQ countless times, but most 1 rep users (that would mostly benefit from reading it) don't even visit it...
a lot of our FAQ discussions and efforts to make it better are completely irrelevant if people don't even bother to visit the damn thing.
 
Rachel
Rachel
2:47 PM
@YannisRizos Fair enough, but t hen we're back to the point that we should make it clearer to newcomers who/what this site is for. The ideas of changing the site name or clarifying the tag line have been turned down as not necessary...
 
Morons
Morons
@YannisRizos Nobody read the FAQ, a public web site is supposed to deigned in such a way that no instructions are needed.. (I think i said this before)
 
Rachel
Rachel
@Morons Not to mention FAQ = Frequently Asked Questions, not "Read this before posting"
 
Morons
Morons
who goes to a website and thinks.. let me first read the faq?
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Morons No, a lot of people read it. But after they get their first question closed.
@Morons I do. Honestly. RTFM, always RTFM.
 
Morons
Morons
LOL
perhaps we should put it in the TOS, so people have to read when registering.
do you also read the TOS?
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
2:49 PM
@Morons You know we have a TOS on Programmers right? People have to check a checkbox prior to asking their first question...
 
Rachel
Rachel
Nobody reads those things
 
Morons
Morons
yes, i know, but we should add the FAQ to it.
 
Rachel
Rachel
You really should have a "New User? Click here and read before posting a question"
 
Morons
Morons
we do...
when you click ask..
 
Rachel
Rachel
@Morons Where?
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
2:50 PM
@Rachel We have that, that's what I'm saying.
@Rachel It shows up before you ask your first question.
 
Morons
Morons
there is a little help box off to the right
 
Rachel
Rachel
It's in the area usually reserved for ads and unrelated content. Its easily missed
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Morons No. We have an actual TOS. It covers all the screen and won't let you continue if you don't indicate that you've read it.
 
Rachel
Rachel
Also, you should directly specify "new user", because people immediately know you're talking to them. They're a new user and are interested in new-user-specific content
@YannisRizos Seriously, I doubt anyone reads those things. All they do is interfere with what you're trying to do, so people try to bypass them as fast as possible
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
Also, the "how to answer" guidelines cover all the answer textarea when you try to answer for the first time...
@Rachel I know. But what else can we do?
We already have something we invite them to read before asking, and they skip it. What else?
 
Rachel
Rachel
2:53 PM
14
Q: Creating a page specifically designed for new users, and link to it at the top of the faq?

RachelI was recently reading the Skeptics.SE FAQ, and one of the top lines of their faq is: New users (even users familiar with the StackExchange format) should read our introduction to the site before posting The link listed goes to a very newbie-friendly meta post which explains what SE is, h...

discussion feature-request new-users faq-proposed
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel And put it where?
That's what the TOS is.
 
Rachel
Rachel
At the top of the FAQ
 
Morons
Morons
Maybe we should email them a tip of the day for 7 days after signing up
 
Rachel
Rachel
And perhaps somewhere on the screen for new users
@Morons too spammy
 
Morons
Morons
im kidding!
 
Rachel
Rachel
2:54 PM
:)
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel 1) people don't visit the faq prior to asking, 2) people skip the TOS.
You can put anything in there and most people will ignore it.
 
Rachel
Rachel
Basically you need something simple and short to catch their attention. Something they'll notice and immediately think "this applies to me, I want to see it". Something like "New User? Click [here]"
 
Morons
Morons
I know! I know! we should make them pass a test on the FAQ! if they have a negative rep!
 
Rachel
Rachel
Don't hide stuff in a wall of text, or along the sidebar where ads normally are
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Morons Heh, I wonder if you'd pass that test ;P
 
Rachel
Rachel
2:55 PM
@YannisRizos I'd pass the test, but I wouldn't answer truthfully :)
 
Morons
Morons
i don't have to! i don't ask questions!
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel There's a dumbed down version of the about page on AskPatents...
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos I'm talking about something even less than that. Something that you can't help but read the entire thing when skimming the page
 
Morons
Morons
I have better idea!!!
 
Rachel
Rachel
Something that will immediately catch the attention of new users because it will apply directly to them
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
2:57 PM
@Rachel Something like "If you haven't done any research, don't ask". Small enough? ;P
 
Morons
Morons
when people get there question's closed or down voted cover their Icon with a Giant red A!
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos Not clear enough, and wouldn't immediately make users think it applies to them
 
Morons
Morons
for 2 days!
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel "If you haven't done any research, GTFO" - better?
People always take insults more personally, they'll certainly think GTFO applies to them ;P
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos Still takes too long to read and process :)
 
Morons
Morons
3:00 PM
in all sirousness, the system is fine, people as stupid question, is gets closed, then they educate themselfs
 
Rachel
Rachel
"New User? Click here" is ultra short, simple, used in many other sites so easily understood, and is pretty much always the first thing I click on when I go to a new site and want to participate
 
Morons
Morons
it works, leave it alone,
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Yeah, they might click, but they won't read anything you put in front of them after they've clicked...
@Morons That's a good policy.
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos Actually yes, they will if the content is relevant to new users specifically and not ridiculously long
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel I've already upvoted your MSO question, don't try to convince me.
 
Rachel
Rachel
3:02 PM
We don't need MSO's approval to do something like that on our own you know
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel You mean something like what Skeptics did? Go ahead... And it might even make more sense to host it on the blog instead of Meta.
Because there's a 5 rep requirement to participate on Meta... 1 rep users can read everything, of course, but on the blog they can comment as well.
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos As I already said, I'm done with this site unless something changes. I'm happy to voice my opinion and try to help out with change, but I'm not investing any time trying to support, promote, or maintain the site anymore
I originally was going to do something like this a while back....
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Fair enough. But if you aren't going to contribute positevely, could you please not contribute negatively? Enough with all the complaining and the campaigning...
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos I'm not trying to be negative, however I would like to bring about change, so if I see an opportunity that looks like it could head in that direction I'm not going to be silent. Too many people tired of the current site status have left already
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Too many? Three I know of...
 
Rachel
Rachel
3:08 PM
@YannisRizos Um.... you're one of the more active meta users, you should know many more than that
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Nope, I only know three who asked for their accounts deleted.
 
Rachel
Rachel
I can think of many names disappear, and recall some meta posts where the users end up with a comment like "I guess this site isnt' for me", or "this is why you're driving users away from your sitee"
Oh I'm not talking about deletion only, I'm talking about quitting
Check out the top beta users from our area51 site: area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/3352/not-programming-related
Most aren't around anymore
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Yes, but that's true for most sites. People come and go...
 
Morons
Morons
@Rachel This isn't going to change, SE will not accept any site with subject subjects.
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel For example I gave up on SO for almost two years.
Not really interested in participating, but I don't hate it as much anymore.
 
Morons
Morons
3:11 PM
This place simply isn't the place for conversation
 
Rachel
Rachel
Well look at the user turnover then of the current site
 
Morons
Morons
so SE will be, ever.
 
Rachel
Rachel
Look at the number of questions asked by establised users vs new users
Look at comments like this from regular users who particpate:
@RobertHarvey - Thanks for the reminder about why people are leaving this site. — jfrankcarr 2 days ago
Or at the number of questions that get closed/deleted every single day
 
Morons
Morons
@Rachel truth be told, if we enforced high level questions only, the higher level the question , the more likely it is to be subjective.
@Rachel what would you change? what CAN change?
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Hey! We don't close a lot of questions anymore...
Anyway, my point @Rachel is that the scope is not going to change. If anything it will become stricter over time. That's a lost cause, and you're wasting your and everyone else's time over it. We can certainly become a friendlier community, but not by lowering our standards.
 
Rachel
Rachel
3:18 PM
@Morons I would change either the way we communicate with new users (site name, tag line, faq, etc), the encouraged/accepted attitude towards bad questions or new users (for example, see this starred message in dba.se) or change the site scope entirely (and yes, I know the site scope is not going to chnage the way I want)
 
Morons
Morons
@Rachel what would you call teh site
 
Rachel
Rachel
for example, you yourself posted a chat comment saying "This is currently the most active question on p.se ...
makes you want to just roll you eyes at the asker... Real world testing is 101 shit.". Its not an encouraging way to promote good questions
 
Morons
Morons
FYI: you should check out Crazy on tap
 
Rachel
Rachel
@Morons Software Development. Or Programming since I think that would be more accepted, but then I'd also want to be clear we don't do tech-support
At any rate, it shouldn't be Programmers
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Hm, but you're the only one who thinks it's a good question. And chat is a bit more casual...
 
Morons
Morons
3:21 PM
i made an ad for it way back when ..meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/a/2643/7748
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
If that comment was posted on the question, you'd be in trouble @Morons
 
Rachel
Rachel
@YannisRizos I'm not saying its good here, I'm saying that users who may post good questions won't post if they think that's the sort of attitutde they'll face from users here. And that it sets an unfriendly tone for the "established users" vs new users
 
Morons
Morons
its a good place for general discusstions.
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel What attitude? Chat is deserted ;)
 
Rachel
Rachel
Many people read chat, even if they don't post
 
Morons
Morons
3:22 PM
the people here a very respectful to users who post bad questions..
 
Rachel
Rachel
And that sort of attitude is all over the place - meta, comments, chat, etc
 
Morons
Morons
you want to enforce niceness?
 
Rachel
Rachel
@Morons Not all of them. It's gotten better since the Summer of Love, but I still frequently see negative comments with no constructive advice
no, I want to stop the attitude of "we're better than you" that I see coming through in comments all over this site
 
Morons
Morons
they get flagged and deleted..
 
Rachel
Rachel
Users come here for help, and are often greeted with rudeness and elitism
 
Morons
Morons
3:24 PM
no offence but i think you are picking up on something that is just not there
 
Rachel
Rachel
Some people don't view it that way, but many others do
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
-28
Q: Are rudeness rules necessary or desirable?

Ron MaimonI have been suspended from skeptics recently for "rudeness". I have written the following on physics regarding rudeness rules and rudeness in general: In any human society, whenever a person isn't following natural rules of etiquette, this person is shooting himself or herself in the foot, si...

discussion support status-declined
 
Morons
Morons
its down voteing with comments.. I hate that too
but that's it.
 
Rachel
Rachel
K, I'm leaving chat I need to go back to focusing on work
 
Morons
Morons
you office is open?
 
Rachel
Rachel
3:26 PM
of course
 
Morons
Morons
mine has no power.
been working from home all week with no VPN, or access to critical systems
 
Rachel
Rachel
Unfortunately for me, mine has an emergancy generator. But I live in WNY, not NYC, so we weren't hit hard at all and still have power and stuff
 
Morons
Morons
ok
enjoy :)
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
bye
 
Morons
Morons
i have a conf call in 2 min
 
Rachel
Rachel
4:03 PM
@YannisRizos You may want to close this question as something other than a duplicate, and link the locked question in a comment instead. Closing as a duplicate makes it seem like that kind of question is OK because a duplicate exists
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel It's not locked, it's an open question...
Community re-opened it, it's a duplicate, my hands are tied. If I close it as anything else, and he find that open question, I'm in trouble. And he will find it eventually, it's our top question.
 
Rachel
Rachel
Oh ok, I thought it was still locked. Now that you mention it, I seem to recall it getting unlocked so we could keep it up-to-date
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Rachel Yes. And of course the first edit after it was unlocked is completely nonsensical.
> Added link to Jeff Atwood's user page
Yeah, right, you improved the question there buddy...
btw the link is to Jeff's ProgSE profile... I could understand it if it was to his blog, but to the ProgSE profile???
 
 
2 hours later…
gnat
gnat
5:59 PM
wanted to try rep recalc and suddenly discovered that I can't find "trigger" button where i thought it should be http://programmers.stackexchange.com/users/<my id>/<my name>?tab=reputation. Is it just me or it is gone indeed?
hm Recent feature changes... don't mention anything related to removal of rep-recalc button
 
Rachel
Rachel
@gnat I thought that button was only used because reputation was static, and that button went through and got rid of things like deleted questions/answers, deleted user votes, etc
When they switch to having real-time reputation, that button was no longer needed
 
gnat
gnat
6:34 PM
@Rachel iirc button was there some time after the change you mention. What bothers me is that I found nothing on MSO regarding its removal. Adding this button is listed in "Recent feature changes..." (dated 2010-12-08) but there's nothing about its removal
 
Dynamic
Dynamic
Are there any good tech-related forums? I really can't seem to find one.
 
Morons
Morons
@gnat you can recalc you rep here .. programmers.stackexchange.com/reputation
@Dynamic crazyontap.com is a general topic forum but the members are all IT
 
Dynamic
Dynamic
@Morons I've seen it... Don't think it's PG13 :P
 
Morons
Morons
we often discuss hi tech topic there.. so you can start a thread on a topic you want to disscuss
its not bad, its not PG13... lots of various opions, but at least the opinions are honest
im a regular there
 
Dynamic
Dynamic
Ya, I see what you mean... IDK I don't feel extremely comfortable...
 
Morons
Morons
6:41 PM
@Dynamic where you a regular on the old JOS board?
 
Dynamic
Dynamic
@Morons I'm sorry? What's JOS?
 
Morons
Morons
i'll take that as a No. :O
 
Dynamic
Dynamic
@Morons Still curious... what's JOS? :-)
 
Morons
Morons
JoelOnSoftware.com
he used to have a forum...
Joel is one of the founders of SE
 
Dynamic
Dynamic
@Morons Oh! No I never participated in the forum... I read the blog :-)
@Morons I know ;P
 
Morons
Morons
6:44 PM
the forum was real good.. it was killed to push its member to SO
well that the going theory.. Joel will never admit to it
 
gnat
gnat
@Morons you're the best! thanks for giving the right URL, I suspected that I just forgot the syntax
 
Dynamic
Dynamic
@Morons Ahhh... makes sense. I don't know. I love Stack Exchange, and it knows it's place, which is a good thing. But I feel like the old forums with strong communities are almost extinct.
 
Morons
Morons
COT is a spin off of the an off topic board the Joel had.. and killed few years prior to killing the JOS Board
?Off was killed for legitamiate reasons
Back to my point...
 
Morons
Morons
7:08 PM
One of the users there had a decent forum...
i'm trying to find the url for you
 
gnat
gnat
0
Q: simple question in java

AmirHossein H-mIs it possible to have an object that is accessible from static methods in the same class in java? for example: public class RaceDriver { public static void main(String[] args) { SkateRace race = new SkateRace(); Phase1(); } public static void Phase1(){ race.add(...

java
I'll try to guess - asker is question banned at SO?
 
Morons
Morons
its a forum for Consultants.. but you may like it
there always reddit too
 
 
3 hours later…
Stack Exchange
Stack Exchange
10:18 PM
Blog - Stack Exchange: Stack Exchange partners with Denver Startup Week
Bethany Marzewski on November 02, 2012

The Mile High City was buzzing last week as it hosted its first ever Denver Startup Week. With more than 80 events hosted by startups all around the city, the week attracted hundreds of entrepreneurs from the Colorado area. Since our Denver office just opened in August, this was a perfect time for us to get to know some of our new neighbors a little better.

Startup Job Fair

On Tuesday, October 23, after our quick spot on Channel 9 News, we set up shop at the Startup Job Fair to recruit even more awesome talent to our company. After two hours, we brought in nearly 50 resumes—thanks to everyone wh …

 
 
1 hour later…
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
11:31 PM
I don't think there likely are any real good OOP design books which are focussed in PHP. Would it be a valid question to ask if any actually exist? I'm just curious, as when people get their head around good design principles they've generally moved past working in PHP it seems. Though perhaps that's just my bias against php...
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa that I've no idea
 
user20683
Yannis would probably know but it's a good couple of hours till his usual on time
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Me either, makes me wonder.. Would that be a valid question for programmers or rapidly closed as book request?
I'm not polling for books, just looking to hear someone say "Yeah I've seen one, so they do exist"
Then again I guess a question like that can't be answered in the negative so perhaps it's not answerable
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa Ubermensh and I have this insanity inducing project idea where we built a massive database of programming languages along with ratings and relations for each one, stuff it into a graph visualization setup for display. Included would be lists of relevant books.
 

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