The Whiteboard

Duga

1:48 AM

This question would be better asked at programmers.stackexchange.com. OT: There is not much "javascript specific" about bitwise operations except for "The operands of all bitwise operators are converted to signed 32-bit integers in two's complement format." — LJᛃ 58 secs ago

gnat

9:13 AM

36

Q: It’s time to retire the term “rep-whore”

Going forward, “rep-whore” (and its derivatives) will be treated like any other term that’s inconsistent with the community’s “be nice” policy: it will be removed. It’s totally okay if you’ve used it in the past. Nobody’s judging the many users who’ve used it. And users will NOT start being s...

^^^ and nicer and nicer and nicer "Wir steigen trotz Haß und Verbot..."

Kabir Hossain

1:20 PM

I know CodeIgnirer and Laravel.
At now I am trying to develop my project skills. Is there any tutorial for me "How to Develop ERP using php ?(demo project)

gnat

2:42 PM

3

A: It’s time to retire the term “rep-whore”

It's time... ...it's time to keep the promise made three months ago: we'll start looking at increasing the number of close votes based on rep You seem to be blaming users of unnecessary rudeness and trying to cut their ways to express it. That may be true and right, but if you think of...

^^^ looking for support from those who remember that old promise to "start looking at increasing the number of close votes based on rep"

Robert Harvey

3:56 PM

I have mixed feelings about this whole thing. I don't have any problem at all with banning the term "whore" network-wide, even though I think the whole clbuttic pr0blem is a whack-a-mole. What does disturb me a bit is the whole "thought police" mentality that seems to have crept into SE. — Robert Harvey 1 min ago

Robert Harvey

4:19 PM

@BradLarson: It's kind of hard to explain. This decision is a by-product of SE's obsession with inclusiveness. SE doesn't interpret new visitors asking flagrantly off-topic questions without making any attempt at learning the first thing about the site or its culture as rudeness, so we put in word filters but never solve the underlying problems. — Robert Harvey 1 min ago

Robert Harvey

5:06 PM

Can we get one more close vote on this?

-2

Q: Develop a VR Workspace

Whenever I work on large projects, I surround myself with whiteboards. I can spread out my ideas and work on multiple parts at once. I find my organization with this method is much better than with multiple windows, even when separated on multiple monitors. Of course, my method has terrible draw...

workflows gui user-interface

Robert Harvey

5:24 PM

Allowed by whom? There is no Central Graph Administration that decides what you can and cannot do.

Bravo.

Kit Z. Fox

5:45 PM

Hey @Robert, do you know stuff about the thing I'm thinking in my head?

I'm trying to figure out a test approach for comparing the old set of web content pages to a new set of web content pages -- I can compare the underlying data, but there is display logic. I'd like to do something like crawl each pair of pages and compare the elements on the page. I could figure it out with something like XPath except it's not XML, and I don't know the best way to do it otherwise.

Robert Harvey

@KitZ.Fox HTML Agility Pack should do what you want.

It even supports XPath.

nuget.org/packages/HtmlAgilityPack

Kit Z. Fox

Oh really? I didn't think that would be possible.

Does it sound like a good approach, or am I thinking about the problem incorrectly?

Robert Harvey

We use HtmlAgilityPack extensively for applications similar to your description.

Jimmy Hoffa even helped me write a rules engine for it.

Kit Z. Fox

Well. I am quite pleased. Thanks for that.

Robert Harvey

@KitZ.Fox What you do is scrape the page using HttpRequest and HttpResponse, and then hand the HTML to HtmlAgilityPack. It creates a document which you then interrogate with document.DocumentNode.SelectSingleNode(xpath) and document.DocumentNode.SelectNodes(xpath).

It supports linq over node collections.

Kit Z. Fox

5:55 PM

That sounds like just what I was looking for. I have used HttpRequest and HttpResponse to check for 500 errors, but I just check the headers.

I figured I could pull the content, but I could only see how to do that as a stream and trying to find elements with regex would not be within my sanity.

Robert Harvey

Yeah. Down the path of regex lies madness.

If you're already familiar with XPath, you're ahead of the game. I find XPath a bit unintuitive, so I'm constantly looking up examples on the Internet and doing a lot of copy/pasting.

Kit Z. Fox

I'm about as good with it as I am with regex. Still a bit of guess-and-check until I figure it out.

Robert Harvey

Fortunately, you don't need a lot of XPath to get by with HAP.

Kit Z. Fox

I wrote an ETL process that took XML and put it into a SQL db, so I used a lot of XPath for that.

Robert Harvey

Well then you already know enough.

Kit Z. Fox

5:59 PM

Am I crazy, or is there no documentation for this?

Robert Harvey

If the stuff you're pulling has ID's, the Chrome Developer console will let you copy/paste a sensible XPath directly from an element.

Try hitting up a div with a bunch of subdivs in it first. You'll get a collection, which you can either iterate through or filter using a smaller XPath.

Kit Z. Fox

Oh, I can hope. Our front-end guy seems very competent.

Robert Harvey

That's a good thing.

Kit Z. Fox

I can use the Chrome console too.

Suddenly I feel like maybe I wasn't such a crappy developer after all.

Robert Harvey

Yeah, I get that feeling ever day. Fortunately, I have enough wins to still keep a job.

Kit Z. Fox

6:02 PM

Well, it just makes me a better BA.

And also apparently a tester.

Robert Harvey

Heh.

Close votes please.

-1

Q: how can i design simple calculation software through object oriented programming in c#?

I’m a novice C# programmer and unfortunately I can’t design classes for simple software, for example, a calculator application with C#. A lot of people said to me: Just write many projects and then you will be a good programmer!!!,in fact,i wanna know that how do you think? this is my calculatio...

c# object-oriented object-oriented-design uml

Kit Z. Fox

6:21 PM

I guess I need to figure out some means of earning reps on Programmers.

Wasn't that one of my New Year's Resolutions?

Thomas Owens

Yes.

Kit Z. Fox

Did you get your scope settled finally? I know there was a lot of hubbub.

Robert Harvey

It's still in committee.

Thomas Owens

Has the scope really changed in the past couple of years?

Robert Harvey

It kinda has. It's more focused now than it used to be.

Thomas Owens

6:28 PM

I mean there was the NPR days and the post-NPR days. It hasn't really had huge changes since NPR ended.

Robert Harvey

Well, it's my hope that the actual scope (the kinds of questions that actually get asked) aligns more closely with the theoretical scope after the name change.

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey That's also what I'm hoping.

I want less of: "Programmers? A place for me to ask people who program questions? Awesome! Let me ask them anything I want, since I want answers from other programmers! I'm not going to read about this place, but it's all about Programmers!"

Kit Z. Fox

So would the question I just asked @Robert here in chat be an appropriate question for the site? I really have no idea.

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox Were you asking for a tool?

If so, then no. We hate tools. We do everything by hand-moving electrons and stuff.

Kit Z. Fox

haha

I thought I was asking about the approach.

Thomas Owens

6:38 PM

That's fine then.

I don't remember the question and I'm too lazy to scroll up.

Kit Z. Fox

Meh. Maybe I will post it next week and see if I get close voted.

gnat

6:52 PM

@RobertHarvey you've been quoted :)

Shog9

8:45 PM

eh, @ThomasOwens, Ana's been catching me up on the discussion that's been had this past week

Donno if you're around now, but seems like the two big *things to resolve* are:
1. Site overlap, as mentioned [here](http://meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/a/8121/106878)
2. On/off-topic definitions (what clarification of the main topic statement is needed?)

Ana

@Shog9 #2 sounds a little ambiguous...you talking about getting on the same page 'bout our goals for /help/on-topic?

Shog9

@Ana Yeah, pretty much just picking up where we left off last week with the audience/topic statement and asking, "what needs to be clarified here"?

That should then lead to on/off-topic lists

So for instance, Stack Overflow is "Q&A for professional and enthusiast programmers". That broad focus then gets narrowed down to "specific programming problems, algorithms, tools, and other practical software development problems"

And has bits carved out to avoid tool-requests and general computing questions.

so we kinda got into this last week with the redacted SDLC

Ana

9:42 PM

...And it looks like it might be a little late in the day for folks. @ThomasOwens ping us when you're around again and we'll pick up where we left off last Friday.

Happy weekend y'all.

Thomas Owens

@Ana Whenever works for you guys. It is a bit late in the day, since most of us are around at work. I know that I can usually pop in unless I'm in a meeting or something. I think most of the regulars are like that.

gnat

If you have a question about...

software requirements
software architecture and design
algorithm and data structure concepts
quality assurance and testing
development methodologies and processes
software configuration management
software engineering management
software licensing

and it is not about...

general workplace issues, office politics, and job hunting (ask on The Workplace instead)
understanding, writing, or debugging code (check out Stack Overflow instead)
how to use specific tools
what language/technology you should learn next, including which technology is better

Looks like current content of Help Center is well aligned with proposed name. Which seems to be the point Rachel was making all these four years pushing for this: Change the name of Programmers to something that more accurately reflects the site scope

Thomas Owens

@gnat The only thing that I can say is that that "not about" list should be getting smaller. Most of that is needed because of the poor name for the site (or so we all suspect) and that's changing. Also, we managed to reword the things that are on-topic to be more clear. But yeah, overall, our scope isn't changing. Just the branding around the scope.

It also really shouldn't be on /help/on-topic, but /help/dont-ask isn't mod editable.

gnat

@ThomasOwens I see. What's your take on wording proposed by @RobertHarvey here?

> We don't do code troubleshooting here, so if your question is about how to fix your broken code or how to use your programming tools, ask it on Stack Overflow, making sure that you provide a minimal, complete, and verifiable example.
> We don't answer survey questions, make lists of things, or engage in extended discussion here. We don't predict the future, find things on the Internet, provide customer support, or make product recommendations of any kind here. We don't know what project you should do next, what class you should take next, or what job you should apply for. We don't give le…

Thomas Owens

10:02 PM

> Software Engineering is a question and answer site for people directly involved in the software development life cycle who care about creating, delivering, and maintaining software responsibly. We don't address questions about debugging code or how to use specific tools in software development. It's built and run by you as part of the Stack Exchange network of Q&A sites.

gnat

wrt overlapping with other sites I believe that migrations to Workplace would better stay mod-only. I way too often see Programmers regulars suggesting TWP for questions that are explicitly off-topic over there. If we add migration option to close dialog, it is quite likely that we will have to remove it pretty soon because of high rate of rejections

Thomas Owens

@gnat I don't think well add migration paths for non-mods right away, based in stats.

gnat

I don't see a reason to change the migration options that users have (which is only to Stack Overflow). In the last 90 days, we've migrated 89 questions away from Programmers. Of those, 70 to Stack Overflow, 4 to Workplace, 3 to Programmers Meta, 2 to Unix & Linux, 2 to Open Source, and 1 each to Programming Puzzles & Code Golf, Computer Science, Code Review, Law, Webmasters, Startups, Cross Validated, and Software Recommendations. In order for a migration to be available to users, there needs to be sufficient need and agreement by both communities. I don't see sufficient need right now. — Thomas Owens ♦ 2 days ago

^^^ yeah, stats seem to be pretty solid in support of your position

Thomas Owens

@gnat In terms of the /help/on-topic page, I think that's pretty good, though.

@gnat If the name change is successful and the number of questions migrated to SO and/or the number of code debugging questions drops, I think it's something to revisit for sure.

Robert Harvey

@ThomasOwens New people never read the pages in the Help Center. If there's any hope of that verbiage being useful for site scoping purposes, it has to be put in front of them right before they ask a question. Since SE seems unwilling to make an interstitial page for us, the next best place is in the Ask Questions page.

During our last follow-up, I made the text shorter:

> __We don't do code troubleshooting here,__ so if your question is about how to fix your broken code or how to use your programming tools, ask it on Stack Overflow, making sure that you provide a [minimal, complete, and verifiable example](http://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve).

> Please make sure that your question **is directly related to the [Systems Development Life Cycle.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Systems_Development_Life_Cycle.jpg)** Avoid peripheral issues such as product recommendations, career or education advice, product support or legal matters.

gnat

10:13 PM

@ThomasOwens yes I meant help/on-topic page. Wrt revisiting migration paths later I agree that this is a possibility. Though it's too early to say

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey Can you dump that in the Meta thread? Preferably the accepted answer.

@RobertHarvey I agree with that. Isn't there something on MetaSE about changing the Ask Questions page?

Robert Harvey

Ack. Stupid markdown.

gnat

> We don't do code troubleshooting here, so if your question is about how to fix your broken code or how to use your programming tools, ask it on Stack Overflow, making sure that you provide a minimal, complete, and verifiable example.

> Please make sure that your question is directly related to the Systems Development Life Cycle. Avoid peripheral issues such as product recommendations, career or education advice, product support or legal matters.

^^^ I buy that

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