The Whiteboard

Jimmy Hoffa

6:00 PM

@GlenH7 of course. Though I can't imagine preferring a bar to a dark room with a screen given a migraine.

PreferenceBean

@JimmyHoffa not at the hotel right now. though I will watch a couple more shows before anything else

user41796

some forms of migraines really don't respond well to the light coming off of a screen

PreferenceBean

got The Blacklist and a Grey's to watch today still

@JimmyHoffa pub

user41796

@JimmyHoffa I'm going to go with a darkish room and a glass of yummy in hand

Ampt

@PreferenceBean why are you hoteling it?

thought you were FT?

user41796

6:01 PM

@Ampt Isn't. Trip is done with IIRC

PreferenceBean

@Ampt I'm not

@Ampt FT?

Jimmy Hoffa

Full time; not contractor or consultant

PreferenceBean

Yeah, I'm full time

Doesn't make me immune to hotels

whatsisname

css induced rage is soon to be upon me

Aaron Hall

@GlenH7 Were they trying to see how well they could do without you?

user41796

6:10 PM

Nah, they were giving everyone the afternoon off

maple_shaft

Wonder how the dev team is doing, havent checked with them in a couple months... check Sonar report on CI server... 52k LOC and 4,102 issues

O_O

Close browser tab... delete all history

turn off lights in my office

user41796

That group had a product with a traditional release model. One of the ways they would reward us after a release would be to give everyone an afternoon off

maple_shaft

sit there siliently

Kit Z. Fox

@maple_shaft I see you...

user41796

@maple_shaft Close your eyes, embrace the darkness. Then let the sound resonate within you: "Ommmmmmmmmm"

enderland

6:11 PM

@maple_shaft 4102 issues? wow

user41796

@Ampt - This looks interesting: theregister.co.uk/2016/02/26/brewdog_recipe_giveaway

PreferenceBean

@GlenH7 why must companies insist on calling that sort of thing "opensourcing"?

grumble grumble

@maple_shaft lol

user41796

What? What's that? I'm too busy salivating over the goodies in their back catalog to think about those things.

PreferenceBean

Tactical Nuclear Penguin is nice

Aaron Hall

Oh, so like, actual fire drill.

PreferenceBean

6:17 PM

is it just me or is Adele hugely overrated?

user41796

No, no. Nothing was going to actually happen. But they were telling everyone to get out and not come back.

PreferenceBean

so much good new music right now and she gets HOW MANY brits?

sickening.

user41796

But sticking around and working for the afternoon was not an option

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 I think that's real decent.

user41796

I agree. Was nice of them to recognize everyone's hard work to make the release happen on schedule

Kit Z. Fox

6:22 PM

This day is taking forever.

whatsisname

RAGE

I am like 100% sure this question has been asked before but I can't find the question/answer on stack overflow

user41796

Rage The Night Away (Official Audio) - Steve Aoki ft. Waka Flocka Flame

►

PreferenceBean

a student's perspective: a professor who cares this much about me being late (as long as i'm not being disruptive) is not a professor i want to have, and certainly not a professor i respect. i'm paying a lot of money to attend your school. i will do what i want. you should respect my time. there are plenty of other classes i could take instead of dealing with you. — sgroves 19 hours ago

nine upvotes for this entitled little shit :smh:

Kit Z. Fox

@PreferenceBean Not paying enough to use capitals properly.

PreferenceBean

yarp

Aaron Hall

6:30 PM

There's always a qualitative element in grading, and professors who don't call you out for it will still probably penalize you for it.

whatsisname

even so, the professor that asked the question is a douche

Kit Z. Fox

Half the people who answered are douchey. It's Academia.

"I'll sue you for my tuition because I have a right to not show up when I feel like it and you can't fail me for that!!"

Aaron Hall

yep

Kit Z. Fox

I failed a student's code for using textspeak in her comments.

I'm that kind of douche.

whatsisname

It is my right to not show up when I don't feel like it if showing up is not specified in the syllabus as being important to the grade

PreferenceBean

6:33 PM

It's your "right" to talk at the cinema, too. Doesn't make you anything other than a big ****

Kids these days are far too interested in what their "rights" are

Kit Z. Fox

I don't know how you can think that not showing up is not related to the grade you get.

PreferenceBean

Think not about what you can do but what about you should do.

Aaron Hall

At FSU undergrad, I had two classes back to back. One at the Stadium at the far edge of campus, the other at the Law School off normal campus at the other end. That professor did not care that I was travelling as quickly as I could, he was consistently furious that I was late. He ignored me when I raised my hand. I did not earn an A in that class.

Kit Z. Fox

If you don't take the test, you fail it. It's not my problem if you didn't show up to learn.

@AaronHall Did you explain the travel problem to him?

Aaron Hall

Multiple times at length.

Kit Z. Fox

6:35 PM

And also. Law professor.

PreferenceBean

Well that's the other problem; professors being ****s

Aaron Hall

Important life lesson.

PreferenceBean

conclusion: everyone in academia is shit

Kit Z. Fox

Yeah. Leave the other class early.

Aaron Hall

I could have done without the credits.

Kit Z. Fox

6:36 PM

Also, don't schedule classes back-to-back when they are miles apart.

whatsisname

@KitZ.Fox: if I only show up for the tests and that's it, that's my right to choose to do so

Aaron Hall

I had no way of knowing that they were that far apart when I was registering.

PreferenceBean

@whatsisname which sacred document enshrines you with this "right"?

Kit Z. Fox

@whatsisname Oh sure. You're not doing yourself any favors, but I don't care.

whatsisname

@KitZ.Fox: a lot of times you don't know what room/building they'll be in until shortly before classes start

@PreferenceBean: the syllabus

PreferenceBean

6:36 PM

@whatsisname and which part of that "right" means you shouldn't fail the test that was given during the class you skipped?

Kit Z. Fox

You know during the drop/add period if you bother to go to class.

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall you learn stuff? That's 100% of the only thing that matters.

(that perspective did me no favors in school)

whatsisname

or, just don't schedule quizzes randomly because that's not what you're supposed to be doing

Kit Z. Fox

or don't expect to get rewards spoon-fed to you.

whatsisname

insisting that the professor layout the course in the syllabus is hardly demanding being spoon-fed

PreferenceBean

6:40 PM

@whatsisname who are you to dictate what the professor is "supposed" to be doing just so that you can entertain your "right" to skip class without any repercussions whatsoever?

whatsisname

I had maybe 2 or 3 classes where attendence factored into the grade, and they were all lib-eds

not a single class for the engineering school did anyone give a damn if you showed up or not

@PreferenceBean: the person paying the bills, that's who

Kit Z. Fox

shrugs doesn't sound like much of an education to me.

Jimmy Hoffa

I have no leg to stand on in speaking regarding school practices. Never mind me

whatsisname

professors don't have absolute authority you know

the terms of the class and grading have to be fair and consistent, you know

Kit Z. Fox

I liked school. I was also frustrated by students who didn't think taking my classes was worthwhile.

whatsisname

6:41 PM

professors can't just say "I'm giving you an F because I think you're an asshole"

Jimmy Hoffa

@whatsisname actually...

Kit Z. Fox

But there's a reason I don't teach anymore so.

Jimmy Hoffa

s/can't/shouldn't/

maple_shaft

mfw I realize Haskell is actually easier than imperative programming

whatsisname

well, unless they have evidence to show why the student should get an F they're going to have problems

BBL lunch

PreferenceBean

6:43 PM

@whatsisname they can give you an F for failing to meet the conditions of the course

if the conditions included "there will be a test in each lecture" then YOU GO TO EACH LECTURE

instead of pratting about in your dorm playing video games

pontificating about your "rights"

I don't care how much ~~you~~ your parents paid for entry to the school!

Jimmy Hoffa

you're making some rather large and mildly derogatory assumptions there

user41796

@PreferenceBean IIRC he's paying his way through school. So he's a professional who went back and wanted to pick up the piece of paper.

PreferenceBean

I'm talking to the hypothetical general student, yeah

Kit Z. Fox

Yes, let's talk about Haskell instead.

PreferenceBean

and the bloke who wrote that comment on that Q

Aaron Hall

6:45 PM

Can you do OOP in Haskell?

user41796

In general, I agree with what you're saying. As a student, the point is to learn and being present in class helps. But circumstances differ by the individual.

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall that's like asking "Can you do assembly in OOP?" - the question doesn't really merit asking

PreferenceBean

I'm sure they do but then the individual needs to discuss that with the module convenor

special dispensation is normally available if you have a provable situation

Jimmy Hoffa

@PreferenceBean you're also used to a very different education system than we have over here

Aaron Hall

Seems like you can? learnyouahaskell.com/making-our-own-types-and-typeclasses

maple_shaft

6:47 PM

@JimmyHoffa Not derogatory at all. One of the hardest things about programming to me is getting stuck in index or recursion hell

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall in a sense you can, but so can you write assembly in OOP- would you though?

PreferenceBean

@JimmyHoffa it's the "kids stating their rights" thing that really bothers me

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft I was referring to the above statement, not yours :)

Kit Z. Fox

@PreferenceBean entitlitis.

maple_shaft

literally Haskell is the answer to all of my lifes problems

PreferenceBean

6:47 PM

@KitZ.Fox sactly

Kit Z. Fox

@maple_shaft I thought that was Lisp.

PreferenceBean

then people wonder why the world is falling apart

Aaron Hall

Looks like Haskell even supports multiple inheritance. Does it do C3 linearization?

PreferenceBean

It burns your coffee for you too

maple_shaft

My life is an endless stream of definitions and expressions until i die when the value will just derives as 42 eventually. Everybody else is living by rules and following commands and changing themselves and their state of being

Other people contrain themselves to limitations of a state machine... I am limitless and boundless

Kit Z. Fox

6:49 PM

♪ roll a d6 ♫ roll a d6 ♪

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall it doesn't have subtypal inheritance

Aaron Hall

> Haskell also permits multiple inheritance, since classes may have more than one superclass. For example, the declaration

class (Eq a, Show a) => C a where ...

creates a class C which inherits operations from both Eq and Show.

Jimmy Hoffa

The closest thing to type classes in OOP is interfaces; and do not continue the incorrect claim that multiple interfaces is multiple inheritance - an interface is implemented, not inherited. People confuse it as inheritance because it has the same syntax as inheritance in Java/C#/other languages

@AaronHall it creates an interface which implements both of those interfaces, different things

and interface isn't even the right term

either way, go learn Haskell. I encourage it; but looking at it from a light of OOP will just thoroughly confuse you the more you learn it

On the face I thought Haskell was just like Python when I first started meddling with it. As you dig deeper though if you try staying in that frame of reference you really will get confused because it's not at all the same

maple_shaft

I can see how one might confuse it with Python. The syntax is similar

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall if you write a function that requires the Eq typeclass, and a data type implements the C typeclass you show there, then that function will be able to work against data of that type class. So will functions that require the Show type class. The function however does not exist inside of the type- Data and functions are isolated in Haskell, not combined as in OOP

PreferenceBean

6:58 PM

about to spend a fortune prebooking photo ops at C2E2. could get Melissa and Chyler, or them both together, or all three........ so expensive though

add Chloe Bennett on top of that

there is also Edward James Olmos and Mary McDonnell ahhhhh

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall also; Haskell has no reasonable way of casting from one type to another. There's no base type like "object" or any other such either.

PreferenceBean

screw it I'm not going on a sunny holiday this year. this is my treat.

$310.00 in the cart so far....

Aaron Hall

Excuse me, sir, I haven't yet received my scotch.

PreferenceBean

We'll be landing soon

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall here's the basis for much of Haskell:

System F

System F, also known as the (Girard–Reynolds) polymorphic lambda calculus or the second-order lambda calculus, is a typed lambda calculus that differs from the simply typed lambda calculus by the introduction of a mechanism of universal quantification over types. System F thus formalizes the notion of parametric polymorphism in programming languages, and forms a theoretical basis for languages such as Haskell and ML. System F was discovered independently by logician Jean-Yves Girard (1972) and computer scientist John C. Reynolds (1974). Whereas simply typed lambda calculus has variables ranging...

Duga

7:06 PM

This is a good issue to talk about, but probably better on Programmers. — rickster 47 secs ago

PreferenceBean

$440 is only £317 so that's ok ;(

worth it lol

Jimmy Hoffa

> ♫ and the men they Dance in the polka dots it's partner found it's partner lost hell to pay when the fiddler stops- It's Closing Time ♫

Kit Z. Fox

I wish Leonard Cohen didn't remind me of the big ex-.

Jimmy Hoffa

:/

Aaron Hall

So when I try to make an abstract base class out of my threading objects, is that called generic programming?

Kit Z. Fox

7:08 PM

@PreferenceBean When it says "team up", does that mean... You know, what? I don't need to know.

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall presuming that was /s

@KitZ.Fox then just go with my earlier listening selection instead

3 hours ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

> 4 4 4 for my headaches..

PreferenceBean

haha almost put it on the company card. can you imagine?

@KitZ.Fox ;p

Aaron Hall

osl.iu.edu/publications/prints/2003/…

PreferenceBean

huh now I'm scared I've done that before without realising

Jimmy Hoffa

@PreferenceBean if you haven't gotten in trouble; no harm no foul.

Kit Z. Fox

7:10 PM

@PreferenceBean I can just imagine. ;D

PreferenceBean

er, plus $69.36 fees the cheeky buggers

£367 then

Jimmy Hoffa

> Ah, bless their hearts.

PreferenceBean

or $509

their site is a bit broken :(

> Your order could not be processed!
> Reason: Order not found!

Sigh. And a minute ago I had to refresh the checkout page before the Countries dropdown would populate

Kit Z. Fox

So it seems that I didn't know how to MERGE back in 2011. I just got a new answer on a question I asked on SO: stackoverflow.com/a/35659674/677007 I can't decide if it actually answers my question.

Oh right, that was the quarter when we upgraded to MSSQL 2008 R2.

Wow, that brings me back.

whatsisname

HTML really is the ultimate example of 'negative productivity'

PreferenceBean

7:17 PM

> Your order has been placed and processed successfully.

:D:D

Aaron Hall

I'm reminded of the fastest gun in the west problem.

Way to go, old bean.

PreferenceBean

rocking it

and I was so close to paying off my credit card debt hehe

Jimmy Hoffa

@KitZ.Fox key point to understand about the MERGE statement and why it's awesome: It's an atomic set operation, all alternatives would require you to manually begin and commit a transaction to maintain atomicity between checking for values and updating/inserting them

PreferenceBean

now another £68 for Gatecon banquet

I'm spending thousands on these two cons :$

Aaron Hall

We're going to have PyGotham at the UN (at least it's looking that way) and we're only charging around $200 or $300 a head.

PreferenceBean

7:23 PM

too bad they've taken off the "pay in GBP" option - their rates were great and I was saving a good tenner or so a pop on the last two component sales

ugh, haven't been charged for either of the hotels yet either

got a decent seat at Gatecon tho

Aaron Hall

Next to an outlet?

:)

PreferenceBean

pfft

the only way the seat could be better is it if were smack bang in the horizontal centre of a block, so I'd (theoretically) never have anyone clambering over me to get out. but being "free" myself is easily superior

Aaron Hall

Oh, yeah, big spender, I forgot.

:)

PreferenceBean

I don't even want to calculate how much I'm spending on these trips in total

user55340

This just in, @RobertHarvey is an old goat.

2

user55340

7:31 PM

Off topic, but I just noticed you're the Greatest of All Time on this website. I just talked to the G.O.A.T. Wow. Thanks for the info man. — J Doe 35 mins ago

Aaron Hall

I'm still using a laptop I got back at the end of 2010 for $608 delivered with a 7200 rpm 1/2 terabyte harddrive, 6 GB RAM, dual-core processer, and back-lit keyboard. I've replaced the battery, keyboard, the cover (with power button), the fan, and the hard-drive. The machine is an old beast, but it looks cool.

It's the same laptop, if that's what you're getting at.

That's an amortized cost of around $12 a month! Woo hoo! :D

I manage to make it the rest of the year, that's $10 a month.

make it another 2 years, that's $8 a month!

PreferenceBean

7:51 PM

keep it for infinity and it's free!

durron597

@enderland I got a shirt and nothing else

I was supposed to get way more

Ampt

I have not been at my desk for more than 3 consecutive minutes for the last 3 hours

oops.

Aaron Hall

@PreferenceBean asymptotically correct, but now I think you're being a little ridiculous as this piece of hardware is approaching the end of its expected useful life.

PreferenceBean

@AaronHall oh... I didn't think about that :(

My PC is about that old and it's still working fine. Never replaced anything in it

mind you I pretty much only use it for web, mail, TV, Spotify and Excel nowadays

Aaron Hall

hopes no one picks up on the fact that he's a little ridiculous all the time

PreferenceBean

8:06 PM

they definitely won't now that it's on the starboard

Aaron Hall

Hey that's not quite true, I was told by presenting on the call (see recording from earlier) I helped in adding credibility.

PreferenceBean

eh

Aaron Hall

wags finger importantly

PreferenceBean

s/importantly/nasally/

right, time for me to go a-wonderin

user41796

@PreferenceBean have a round or five and kiss the migraine goodbye.

PreferenceBean

8:13 PM

@GlenH7 hope so!

see you soon for my weekly MOBILE WEB CHAT UI BETA EXPERIENCE

user41796

sed s/week/dai/

PreferenceBean

now only US$509.99

whatsisname

it's crazy when you get an exception in ASP.NET and the call stack is like 9001 levels deep

quite a bit a ways away from the metal

Ampt

@PreferenceBean shouldn't you be at the pub

Aaron Hall

8:29 PM

Don't drink alone - that's what they say, anyways.

Shog9

who says that?

Duga

This question is probably better suited for programmers stackexchange: programmers.stackexchange.com — Dan Orlovsky 59 secs ago

PreferenceBean

@Ampt PRESENT

@Shog9 mobile chat beta is AMAZING

plz2makeitnonbeta

Shog9

@PreferenceBean thank you!

I had NOTHING to do with it.

So I'm happy to take credit.

PreferenceBean

Excellent!

Ampt

8:45 PM

@Shog9 losers do, obviously

Shog9

I'm drinking alone right now. In a meeting with 8 other people.

Ampt

see, you're not alone

you're just the only one smart enough to drink

user114359

I feel like Duga is about to quote me...

PreferenceBean

@Snowman I don't think it's just a feeling.

user114359

@PreferenceBean I like Duga is ignoring me. Maybe it has a blacklist of users who know better?

Aaron Hall

8:52 PM

Thoughts? yosefk.com/c++fqa/defective.html

user114359

@AaronHall I've read that before, it is full of butthurt by people who don't understand how to use C++. These are the same people who try to write procedural code in functional languages.

Ixrec

oh the "FQA", that always felt like people being dicks for the sake of being dicks to me

Aaron Hall

hmmm, one of those then

PreferenceBean

@Snowman Or those who don't :)

Aaron Hall

The first time I read "super considered harmful" I didn't follow the guy, but I figured he must have a good reason for writing it. The last time I read it, I realized the guy actually didn't understand what he was talking about. And then I saw a talk given by Raymond Hettinger where he called the guy out for not knowing what he was talking about.

PreferenceBean

8:58 PM

@Ixrec I agree. Shame they're almost entirely correct.

C++ is a mess. I've actually mostly stopped following it as of C++14, and it's my main specialty.

.... I should change that.

Though maybe this comes back to the "don't give a c#nting cr#p about software development any more" thing..

Ixrec

probably

C++ is a mess, almost objectively so, but learning all the minutiae has always been fairly pointless; the useful non-redundant non-esoteric subset of C++14 has a lot going for it imo

not that we'll ever agree on what that subset is, but I believe it exists

PreferenceBean

probably

I used to enjoy that argument

now I'll just say yes whatever you are right all hail Ixrec *hic*

hmmm mobile chat ui beta needs a way to star your own messages

Ixrec

nowadays people seem more interested in whether Go or Rust or something else can displace that semi-mythical good-parts-of-C++ language

PreferenceBean

they always were imo just that group is growing

I hate to say it but now that I know Python can be trivially compiled it's quite attractive to me

Jimmy Hoffa

I don't know shit about C++ but from my perspective; any language that doesn't have a robust standard library to begin with already failed. When most of the things you need to write an application rely on 3rd party libraries you end up having compatibility issues between each one and each picking it's own base "standard" lib that competes with your other 3rd party dependencies required base "standard" lib...

Ixrec

9:05 PM

the alternatives are stronger too imo

PreferenceBean

not for big systems of course but for lots of things

@JimmyHoffa it does though

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa C++ comes from an era when big standard libraries weren't a thing yet, I believe Java popularized that

user114359

There is a lot of crappy legacy C++ code out there that sucks to maintain. But new C++ programs using new language features and idioms are quite nice to work with.

Jimmy Hoffa

C++ has tried cleaning this up it sounds like, but I'm just saying for any language to evolve without a standard library will end up with an utterly fractious ecosystem...

Ixrec

so in practice anyone trying to use C++ needs to have a list of libraries they like too

PreferenceBean

9:05 PM

@JimmyHoffa granted half of it is "de facto" standard via Boost but speaking practically that's honestly just as good

user114359

@JimmyHoffa C++ is an ancient language, the austerity of its standard library is what prompted environments such as .NET and Java to provide rich standard libraries

PreferenceBean

if more people used standard features the world would be a better place

Aaron Hall

Python is correct.

Ixrec

@PreferenceBean I mean the alternatives that are actually systems languages are much stronger these days; for a while it was C++ vs VM and scripting languages

Aaron Hall

he said importantly

Jimmy Hoffa

9:06 PM

@Ixrec don't attribute that to java; it's earlier than that. I understand C++'s age is a factor in it's troubles, I'm just speaking from a language and ecosystem perspective

I just see not having a robust standard library as basically a death knell (for any language, not C++ specific)

PreferenceBean

@Snowman It's a weird one. In principle I agree with C++ not providing a monolithic stdlib that panders to "what a desktop PC is right now today". In practice there's a reason Java and .NET are so popular, and that's increasingly difficult to ignore.

Ixrec

it's definitely a serious problem, I'd only write something in C++ if I was willing to go through all the effort of vetting open source libraries for each non-trivial subtask I shouldn't have to rewrite myself

PreferenceBean

@Ixrec Gotcha and I'd like to start playing with those alternatives. Or I mean I would if I still cared uh huh whatever

user114359

@PreferenceBean I am fine with omitting e.g. GUI libraries but stuff like a TCP/IP stack and the ancillary classes to go along with it are fairly core to any modern language

Jimmy Hoffa

SmallTalk had a robust standard applications library. I want to say Eiffel did as well, so too did CLISP

user114359

9:09 PM

Same with threading primitives, which are finally standard as of C++11

PreferenceBean

The nerdgasm technical principles underlying C++'s stability and deliberate platform agnosticism seem harder and harder to justify nowadays, and I find that difficult to admit so you'd better appreciate it

@Snowman see networking I'm on the fence. I suppose in this day and age. it's just so ... prescriptive. C++ was never supposed to pander to any implementation

Jimmy Hoffa

@PreferenceBean oh, since we've got you finally feeling defeated and vulnerable, can I interest you in a monoid? Would you like to accept Haskell into your home, and into your heart?

PreferenceBean

mind you they're doing that so much with their absurd dalliances into script-language-like constructs that they might as well now

and, well, they are

so there you go

@JimmyHoffa I'm not quite that far gone.

Ixrec

I'm not sure how networking involves "pandering to any implementation" as long as it's cross-platform, it's not like IP/HTTP/etc have any serious competitors

Jimmy Hoffa

@PreferenceBean you'll get there.. give it time... let the weariness seep into your bones..

PreferenceBean

9:12 PM

@Snowman a memory model that allows for effective use of a multicore system seems FAR more relevant to me than FS and networking

@Ixrec butttttttttt

Ixrec

agreed, real concurrency support is more important than FS and networks

PreferenceBean

@Ixrec meh

Ixrec

but FS and networks are still extremely relevant to real-world application development

back when I wrote code in my spare time I had to wrap filesystem calls constantly

PreferenceBean

C++ has lasted because it doesn't age as tech changes. it's abstracted away from being affected by (accurate) statements like "IP/HTTP is all there is nowadays"

but since even "novelty" applications nowadays pass that assertion it is indeed getting harder to justify that stubborn stoicism.

oh well

Ampt

Any of my Java brethren used a JCR before?

Ixrec

9:15 PM

I honestly don't understand that statement, in what way does not having a standard IP/HTTP library make the C++ language "abstracted away" from being affected by IP/HTTP?

PreferenceBean

@Ampt the ones who implemented probably gave a spin once or twice

Ixrec

since we're talking about libraries as opposed to core language syntax

and the concurrency thing seems like a good example of C++ changing as tech changes

Ampt

@PreferenceBean never use your own software. That's the first rule of Java

PreferenceBean

kek

user114359

@Ixrec I think the idea is if C++ had classes for TCP (connect to URL, open stream, etc) and we changed to some new protocol that C++ would be left with obsolete libraries. By not having any networking libraries, it is immune to obsolescence in that regard. But I would argue that not having a library for the de facto worldwide networking protocol makes C++ obsolete.

PreferenceBean

9:21 PM

@Snowman this

that's what I was trying to say :)

Ixrec

yeah, that seems entirely the wrong way around to me

even for a systems language

Jimmy Hoffa

It's ok, @GlenH7 will be around with refreshments any minute. Just enjoy the ride

Ixrec

neither do I

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec so you're writing Haskell too?

PreferenceBean

@Ixrec well at least they're trying now

Ixrec

9:24 PM

yep

PreferenceBean

I hate to say it but they need corporate backing. and I don't just mean the committee floor being dominated by industry representatives

when ever job going is for Oracle, Sun, Microsoft, Google technologies, it's a clear statement

Aaron Hall

ok, I want to write about Python for the blog, but I'm totally not sure what to talk about.

PreferenceBean

programming isn't for hobbyists and purists any more. it's the fabric of reality

like how the internet has hugely evolved in structure and governance

we're not in the 90s any more kids!

Jimmy Hoffa

@PreferenceBean what company in it's right mind would back C++? Honestly. Look at it from the perspective of a corporation; that can only go poorly for them, especially when you consider the culture of much of the C++ landscape which would virulently fight against any such thing

PreferenceBean

@AaronHall write about for..else.. and about how default argument value scope is broken

Jimmy Hoffa

9:27 PM

The only thing a corporate backer would do is come up with C+++

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa now that you mention it, that is extremely true

PreferenceBean

def foo(a, b=[]):
   b.append(a)
   return b

print foo(3)
print foo(4)

run that

Aaron Hall

You want me to write about scope and how everything you think you know is wrong?

Well for that I'd be writing about the execution model

Don't use mutable default arguments if you don't understand how they work.

Jimmy Hoffa

but the reality is every corporation working in C++ already has their own twisted form of C++ because it requires you to reconstruct much of it and it's ecosystem before really creating any large scale applications... you can't fork C++, it's already a thousand headed hydra

PreferenceBean

wow formatting that was not easy

Duga

9:30 PM

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it's a better fit for Programmers.SE — kolossus 29 secs ago

PreferenceBean

and you thought I wouldn't be able to work in Python hehehe

@JimmyHoffa but... but.. hail hydra! :sniff:

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall being genuine, you ever looked into Haskell at all seriously?

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa couldn't agree more, we have our own everything-C++-should-have-but-doesn't mega-library where I work

Aaron Hall

I think you could, but if you tell an interviewer you're not confident, I'd rather not have intro'd you in the first place.

PreferenceBean

yeah I'm kidding

that was last month

Aaron Hall

9:31 PM

@JimmyHoffa it's one of my top new languages to learn, next to C and JS.

Ixrec

admittedly said mega-library also covers a bunch of things that only make sense in our legacy code

PreferenceBean

mesa now python and pygtk expert yo

Ixrec

like converting from our legacy proprietary multi-byte text encoding format that predates Unicode to UTF-8

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall not sure if serious... you were joking earlier about that "generic" programming jab, right?

Aaron Hall

I'm learning the terminology

it wasn't a jab.

Jimmy Hoffa

9:32 PM

@AaronHall oh! Sorry. No, generic programming refers to a specific thing, namely "parametric polymorphism" - or what is in Java/C# called "generics"

PreferenceBean

haha
.. "Haskell" "seriously" seriously?

Ixrec

Aaron Hall

There are shops that do Haskell all day long.

Shog9

When reading these conversations, mentally replace the word "Haskell" with "Meth" and they start making sense.

5

Jimmy Hoffa

think back to mathematical terms a lot when looking at Haskell. For something to be "general" means that it works across a set of scenarios. A generic class in C#/Java provides functionality across anything you put within it's generic type parameter. In Java/C# there's also "generic type constraints" which refers to it being generalized to a set. If not constrained, "generic" or "general" refers to working across all scenarios

Aaron Hall

9:35 PM

ha

Jimmy Hoffa

Haskell has type constraints to, so if I write a function min :: (Ordered a) => a -> a -> a it would be said to be "generalized for all ordered types"

Aaron Hall

This paper seems to say that Haskell supports generic programming more than any others

PreferenceBean

@AaronHall Haskell shops?

Jimmy Hoffa

it does; it has a great deal more generic flexibility than the Java/C# stuff I'm referencing above, just trying to give a frame of reference

user114359

@Shog9 obligatory xkcd:

user114359

9:38 PM

PreferenceBean

> Excuse me; I'd like some Haskell, please.
> Certainly, sir.

Aaron Hall

I know people who only do Haskell.

user114359

I am so grateful that Haskellhead across the street got arrested. He could have blown up his house, reducing my property value.

Ixrec

it's so generic that it needs esoterica like "the monomorphism restriction" to help decide what to do when you are insufficiently precise in your genericness

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall it's biggest in financial places so that's not surprising

@Ixrec true, but GHC let's you turn it off and cross your fingers :)

Aaron Hall

9:40 PM

I don't know people at my firm who are doing it though - I just go to a lot of meetups and talks regarding languages I'm interested in, and I meet people there.

Ixrec

Which is like saying C++ lets you turn on pointer arithmetic. Nothing could go wrong!

maybe reinterpret_cast would be a better analogy

Aaron Hall

There was a talk about metaclasses in Common LISP (CLOS) at an OCaml meetup.

and it turns out (I had to Google it myself) that CLOS has the C3 linearization algorithm as an option.

Ixrec

I know, I saw the smiley face

Jimmy Hoffa

Where? @enderland is still here??

@AaronHall one of the things about these types of implementation concepts is that because Haskell is lazy to the bone, many implementation features of other languages don't make sense or apply to it. Also, dispatch to the correct implementation function etc in Haskell is found at compile time by impredicative logic

Intuitionistic type theory

Intuitionistic type theory (also known as constructive type theory, or Martin-Löf type theory) is a type theory and an alternative foundation of mathematics based on the principles of mathematical constructivism. Intuitionistic type theory was introduced by Per Martin-Löf, a Swedish mathematician and philosopher, in 1972. Martin-Löf has modified his proposal a few times; his 1971 impredicative formulation was inconsistent as demonstrated by Girard's paradox. Later formulations were predicative. He proposed both intensional and extensional variants of the theory. For more detail see the section...

look at Algorithm W here:

Hindley–Milner type system

In type theory and functional programming, Hindley–Milner (HM) (also known as Damas–Milner or Damas–Hindley–Milner) is a classical type system for the lambda calculus with parametric polymorphism, first described by J. Roger Hindley and later rediscovered by Robin Milner. Luis Damas contributed a close formal analysis and proof of the method in his PhD thesis. Among HM's more notable properties is completeness and its ability to deduce the most general type of a given program without the need of any type annotations or other hints supplied by the programmer. Algorithm W is a fast algorithm,...

which leads me directly back to

28 mins ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

Transcript for