The Whiteboard

5:00 PM

Also you have to do your own withholding and file a 1099 when you're doing that stuff which cuts a wider chunk than if it was 90-110k W2

enderland

@JimmyHoffa no, the hourly pay conversion (no benefits) to salaried pay (benefits) is what I'm talking about

a good way to guesstimate is hourly rate * 1000 = yearly salary

user41796

@JimmyHoffa That's because you pay the full 15% FICA | what-not vs. the 7.5% you'd pay as an employee and splitting that with the employer

user41796

@enderland Can't say I've heard of that type of a conversion factor

enderland

@GlenH7 it's a good rule of thumb when thinking about being a contractor vs FT, salaried

Telastyn

good job hot list: travel.stackexchange.com/questions/52651/…

user41796

5:04 PM

@enderland I don't think it scales well to the upper end of the salary range though

enderland

like, "I make $60k a year, what should I charge for an hourly rate if I go fully independent?"

@GlenH7 not once you are above $100/hr or $100k, but it's still pretty close

whatsisname

@enderland you're off by 2

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 I know, just saying.

enderland

I wrote up an example cost comparison here and it turned out to be VERY close for $100/hr to $100k a year, though :P

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland ?? What are you talking about. The conversion is (hourly rate * 2080) - Withholding

whatsisname

5:05 PM

w2->1099 is usually -10/hr

Jimmy Hoffa

I always presume ~30% withholding for W2, @GlenH7 says toss another 7.5% for 1099

enderland

@JimmyHoffa do you get healthcare? do you get paid vacation/holidays? do you get any of the other numerous perks? (no)

whatsisname

those don't usually total up to 100% of your salary in cost

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland Oh, you're talking about a valuation not a revenue number?

enderland

just take a look at the link - workplace.stackexchange.com/a/50402/2322

@JimmyHoffa yes

higher revenue (vs non-taxed benefits) is another "cost" to being a hourly employee with no benefits, because it means all your "benefits" are actually being taxed at your current tax rates, too

Jimmy Hoffa

5:09 PM

Salary is a revenue number; that's your dollar income. Your whole packages valuation is a different story, though I wouldn't reduce the 1099 valuation because a W2 has a more valuable package normally; I'd increase the valuation of the W2.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa the valuation is what I'm talking about - hourly rate * 1000 is a good rule of thumb to compare the two

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland yeah, but that's by reducing the valuation of 1099, I'd increase the value of the W2 to make the comparison more meaningful (the real value of the 1099 is above what you suggest, because it will allow you to afford more than that valuation describes)

enderland

nearly everyone who has not done some analysis would pick an hourly rate that results in them getting a worse total compensation package, since the tendency is to think "well my salaried pay is $30/hr so if I get $40/hr as a contractor that's great!" when it might be a worse overall package

Jimmy Hoffa

your income in real numbers will be above hourly rate * 1000 in 1099, but a W2 value is greater than just the income

enderland

@JimmyHoffa that's fair

Jimmy Hoffa

5:12 PM

@enderland yeah, a better thing to do would be to work out the value of your whole salary package (when I'm looking at a job, I always do this), so you can then compare it. There's also always a risk quotient when talking contract vs. FTE which you have to assess the value of and add that valuation to an FTE position to compare them as well

whatsisname

@enderland: I've done the math and 40hr 1099 yields pretty well as being comparable against 30/hr W2

Jimmy Hoffa

I always demanded W2 plus contracting company leveraged benefits when I contracted. They didn't want it, they could find someone else.

enderland

@whatsisname depends on your benefits... or hours, there are a lot of factors

but if your 30/hr W2 is $62k a year, I suspect nearly everyone doing 40/hr will be worse off unless they get a lot of OT paid for (or otherwise have healthcare, etc)

after the additional FICA tax 40/hr for 40 hours a week and 48 years is only 71k - most people get more than 9k worth of benefits (or 20 days total time off) a year

whatsisname

obviously everyone has to do the math

to see what applies to their situation

but 100% more/hr that you are claiming seems a bit steep

although, if you're not working 40/week every week then it becomes more reasonable to bump the price up if you're constantly looking for gigs

enderland

@whatsisname I'd be curious to see your analysis for the $30/hr salaried ($62k/year) to $40hr 1099

whatsisname

5:23 PM

I was 1099ing part time in addition to my w2 gig

Jimmy Hoffa

I do wish I wasn't too lazy for such things... I could probably make a good chunk of money; I am a rather fast and effective coder after all. And I do sorely miss having vacations (R.I.P. 2008)

enderland

@whatsisname Ah so benefits were irrelevant then, that's not common when people make this comparison ;)

whatsisname

even if my benefits were factored in, it wouldn't amount to an extra 20/hr

lunchtime bbl

durron597

@gnat HNQ

gnat

5:53 PM

@durron597 VLQ :)

durron597

@gnat @GlenH7 @MichaelT Now that I'm not doing STCI anymore, I usually am not trolling the progs front page either, which means I should have 4-7 CVs left after I do my reviews. Feel free to ping me, because I probably won't see otherwise.

gnat

@durron597 regarding HNQ, when you see one that isn't bad, first instinct is to look for duplicates. This is really simple: having many quickly answers indicates that this is something well known and likely has been asked already. Of course it's not 100% guaranteed mind you but it doesn't hurt to check (some may recall old hot questions from user Prog, many of which turned out blatant /or maybe even intentional/ dupes)

durron597

6:10 PM

@gnat right

whatsisname

tech.slashdot.org/story/15/08/12/1628214/…

enderland

> which saw the size of its tech workforce jump 8.36 percent over the past six months

wooooah

though I can't find the source information for that, though

whatsisname

it could be dice.com spam though

user41796

@gnat You know his new handle, right? And I think he was just too lazy to search and read other posts.

enderland

@whatsisname yeah, the dice article didn't link any stats

user55340

6:25 PM

@GlenH7 is carci someone I should remember (I recall seeing some of those questions and shaking my head...)

user41796

@MichaelT Isn't ringing a bell for me, no

user55340

Looked in old post. Nope, same name. Just another astronaut.

user41796

No shortage of those...

user55340

Immutability, neural nets, and Haskell.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT you leave me out of it!

@GlenH7 btw thanks for reminding me the term Stream Processor; I knew there was a good well defined system around the concept I was looking for that fit my purpose... the name gave me a clear design approach which simpled up my whole service after a thrashing bit of refactoring this morn'

user55340

6:31 PM

The three topics he keeps asking about.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa The Unix folk already invented everything. It's just a small matter of rediscovering all of it. :-D

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 humbug, the concept was a well defined common one from math long before it was in Unix. To be fair, I really dislike a lot about the Unix design approach in practice; I think the culture of much of it espouses hackery and eschews robustness and thought out design too much.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa That merely reflects the origins of the OS and the original target audience

Jimmy Hoffa

Much of the Unix design concepts are things I strongly agree with, the implementations I've seen time and time again though are half-functioning puzzle pieces all glued together haphazardly by someone with a focus on making it work rather than making it good

user41796

It was a tool to help them do their other research, that's all.

Jimmy Hoffa

6:40 PM

there's much irony to be had with the fact that modern linux is the opposite of the unix philosophy; tightly coupled heavily integrated huge monolithic components underly the modern linux system.

user55340

The torvalds/ tannenbaun debates are an interesting read.

user55340

Tanenbaum–Torvalds debate

The Tanenbaum–Torvalds debate was a debate between Andrew S. Tanenbaum and Linus Torvalds, regarding the Linux kernel and kernel architecture in general. Tanenbaum began the debate in 1992 on the Usenet discussion group comp.os.minix, arguing that microkernels are superior to monolithic kernels and therefore Linux was, even in 1992, obsolete. Other hackers such as David S. Miller and Theodore Ts'o joined the debate. The debate has sometimes been considered a flame war. == The debate == While the debate initially started out as relatively moderate, with both parties involved making only b...

gnat

@GlenH7 yeah it's possible he didn't search. Though similarities to older questions were stronger than I typically see in the duplicates. And at least once it was an openly admitted rehash and repost

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT yeah, I recall reading about this. Linus claimed pragmatism on his side, but the original ecosystem of his OS was still a solidly unix philosophy environment, and it stayed as such for years. Not sure when, but at some point in the early-mid '00s it got more and more of it's small utilities replaced by larger, more integrated ones

or maybe it was mid-late '00s I'm thinking

Duga

Questions that ask "where do I start" are typically too broad and are not a good fit for this site. People have their own method for approaching the problem and because of this there cannot be a correct answer. Give a good read over Where to Start, then address your post. — gunr2171 35 secs ago

user41796

6:50 PM

@gnat That particular user did / does have a "I'm special" attitude of entitlement

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 some people are special. Me for instance :)

user41796

@JimmyHoffa No argument there. But you don't reek of an attitude of entitlement. :-)

user41796

Maybe something else in the air out your way, but it sure isn't entitlement....

Jimmy Hoffa

> programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/49548/…

user41796

Not quite what I was getting at, but whatevs...

gnat

6:55 PM

-23

Q: Ask multiple questions at a time, not every 90 minutes

You can only post once every 90 minutes. I don't think Stack Overflow should be limited to one question every 90 minutes. When I'm studying, I gather all my questions to ask in one go. I just asked a question on SO and I was going to post another (completely different) question. I didn't pla...

^^^ I really can't understand why we can't have such a rate limit at Programmers. 10 minutes is all that it takes to prepare new solid question over here? give me a fucking break

8

Q: Please increase rate limit for new users asking questions to one used at Stack Overflow (1 per 90 minutes)

As September is coming, site is getting spammed by zero effort homework dumps. Particularly passionate spammers even drop their garbage at us at highest rate allowed (today examples: 1, 2, 3, 4 - 10K links). And prior examples are not an isolated incident. As pointed in comments, next day after ...

feature-request asking-questions rate-limiting homework-dump

Jimmy Hoffa

Not what you meant? Welcome to the internet!

gnat

@JimmyHoffa I think @GlenH7 meant that every homework dump dropped at Programmers in less than 90 minutes after prior one should turn into fart in Shog's cubicle

user41796

Hey now! Don't be putting words in my mouth like that.

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat considering the "Chat moving to Colorado" thing that just happened, I suspect we are all currently in Shog's cubicle; so let it rip.

I hate the second; more code = less readable = less maintainable often times. Semantic density is something that needs to be balanced, your first example has too much meaning in a small space - it's too semantically dense, your second example is not dense enough; it takes too much reading to gain an insight into the semantic purpose of the code. It's intuitive to strike a balance of semantic density in english: You don't stretch a statement across as many words as possible, and you don't smush it into it's most compact form because neither is very understandable. — Jimmy Hoffa 1 min ago

^-- woot I came up with I think the best way of explaining the concept of semantic density I've found yet

It is totally natural and intuitive in English, and everyone recognizes too far on either side in English makes for something that's difficult to understand. So it is for code, but explaining the concept as it relates to code has been a concept I've wrestled with for a while.

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