The Whiteboard

8:03 PM

@psr I was aiming for Gorgon but this works too

user41796

I think the fundamental problem is that we (continue to) see large waves of crap questions that exhaust the available close votes that the active community moderators have within a 24 hour period. Slow closing of poor questions lets in poor answers which increases the amount of community moderation that needs to take place.

user55340

We'd hire Oded for full time moderator if we could...

user41796

And then we get the hurt feelings from poor answers being downvoted, or from questions being closed after they put an answer in place.

user55340

Just send a pager message to him anything something dips below -2.

Shog9

So... Let's try something a bit less drastic: rolling question blocks

gnat

8:05 PM

@psr you're totally wrong!!! it's fully opposite: build tools {should not|should} be kept in version control!

user41796

@Shog9 Yep!

Shog9

Folks with at least two questions under their belts will be rate-limited according to how their past questions were received

user41796

Truthfully, it was a thought that started mostly in jest from the other day. Robert Harvey came in complaining about the volume of poor questions on SO. So we recommend he just protect the whole site.

Shog9

if poorly-received, they must wait between 1 and 7 days to ask another question

there are few users who meet these criteria on Progse

enderland

@Shog9 how many questions are actually asked by people in that category, of recent questions here?

Shog9

8:06 PM

but... They are likely quite annoying

user55340

5 hours ago, by GlenH7

Maybe we should just protect both SO and Progs during September. No questions allowed unless you've earned 10 rep on the site...

gnat

@Shog9 not at Programmers, this luxury is only for SO (just like 90-min rate limit for new users):

@Seth SO for now, it's still in testing. So far, I like what I'm seeing out of it, but I want to watch it. — Tim Post ♦ Sep 19 at 13:40

user55340

@Shog9 That could certainly help.

user55340

When they ask 3 awful questions faster than we can close and advise them on fixing one (or even point them to the help center), they are often hitting question bans once we do get around to closing them.

Shog9

@gnat it's on. Right now.

user41796

8:08 PM

Shhhh. Don't tell Tim.

user55340

Being able to push that third question out a bit so that they can receive some guidance (please read our help center, look around, look at this meta post that tries to describe all of our common issues)..

Shog9

@enderland very, very few. But...

@Shog9 I suspect this is 'not SO' thing, but how many other sites also match the rate limit that SO has? We get things like 6:02, 6:32, 7:06, 13:22, 13:50 (what at least feels like) not infrequently. (yes, I know it feels like we're ganging up on you... but we're out of close votes). — MichaelT 8 mins ago

...as I said, likely annoying.

user55340

(would be interesting to dig into the does 'time between questions' correlate to score?)

gnat

@Shog9 thank you! both of these? I mean suspension for bad received askers and 90-min rate limit?

Shog9

@gnat no, the 90-minute limit was a stop-gap on SO while we worked on rolling rate limits and that other thing I mentioned. Once we're done testing those, it'll get rolled back.

(It's actually really brutal for folks behind a NAT)

also, congrats on being a guinea pig for a system we're still bug fixing!

user41796

8:10 PM

One bad apple spoiling things for everyone else...

user41796

@Shog9 Isn't that all of StackExchange? :-)

Shog9

there are no bugs in the rest of the system. Just features we haven't properly documented / made up excuses for yet.

4

gnat

@Shog9 I see. interesting. Thanks for explaining, this way it seems to make good sense

user41796

Back to an earlier point - It's fair to say that we see a decent number of first time questions that are also quite annoying.

user41796

And the help vampires generally don't seem to be hitting the site with multiple bad questions. But the ones they do ask are stinkers.

Shog9

8:13 PM

@GlenH7 yeah, that's a much harder / bigger problem

that's where that cross-network thing comes into play

enderland

And what about all the people who won't be able to join the community because they're terrible at making helpful and constructive co-- ... oh.

user41796

@Shog9 I really don't mean to beat a dead horse, but that's where I think more close votes would help solve that issue. That would allow for more community moderation in a timely fashion. And I'd like to think it's trivial to implement.

Shog9

@GlenH7 sure it's trivial - but it's a band-aid

Robert Harvey

Are rapid-fire questions asked by the same user really the problem on Programmers? Would rate limiting really make any difference?

whatsisname

man I haven't done anything worthwhile at work today

enderland

8:16 PM

Stack OVerflow already has a higher close vote limit, I have 50 there with minimal rep (3500ish)

Robert Harvey

@whatsisname That's because you're here writing on the Whiteboard.

Shog9

if there are, let's say 3 people using all their votes... And 300 people using few or none... Then we're just burning out those 3 faster by increasing the votes/day

user41796

@Shog9 I'll still put a band-aid on even if I know I have to go to the hospital to get it cleaned up. It buys me time.

user55340

@Shog9 as to the close votes and people not using them... most of them aren't doing reviews. Thus, the questions that get closed are the stickers on the front page... but as soon as they disappear from easy visibility, the close votes expire (or someone gives a poor answer and it bumps back up... and then that gets down votes and a much less than ideal experience for all involved)

whatsisname

I haven't even been writing anything here

user55340

8:17 PM

@enderland If close queue > 1k (IIRC) close vote count goes up.

user41796

So I hear what you're saying when you call it a band-aid, but I'll take it until a better solution can be found. Because we're bleeding worse without the band-aid.

Robert Harvey

That U2Answer guy seems like an outlier.

gnat

@Shog9 if you're interested to know how it felt like at Programmers today and yesterday, watch this:

►

user55340

@RobertHarvey he was, but he was a very visible one. We've had people who do 3x fast questions in the past who get them all closed.

user55340

I recall one guy asking about interviews for Apple, Google, and Oracle... each in a separate question.

enderland

8:19 PM

@MichaelT which, of course, the suggestion here won't stop (since the prevoius questions won't be "poorly received" until too late?)

user55340

@enderland two things there - one, slow them down to the rate which others refresh close votes... maybe give them a hint they need to do some more research about the site before asking their next question.

user55340

Without mod intervention, 3 quick questions represents 15 close votes....

Shog9

@GlenH7 maybe. But... To really stretch this metaphor... You want that tourniquet when you're bleeding out, but only just long enough to get to the hospital. If you're not gonna die from blood loss and the hospital is days away, it's probably just gonna make things worse.

There are... other potential band-aids.

user55340

You're the surgeon... we're the first responders.

user41796

@Shog9 True. But if the EMT shows up with a limited tool kit, you don't turn down the (temporary) tourniquet while they are rigging something else together.

Shog9

8:23 PM

that reminds me, I gotta order me some of those cool EMT pants someone here recommended

user41796

It's equally silly to say "well, I'm not going to do anything at all because the exact right solution isn't at hand."

user55340

@GlenH7 (tangent - did you read that article about the collapsed lung in flight?)

user41796

@MichaelT Nope. That would be a horrific place for a collapsed lung

Shog9

@GlenH7 politician's fallacy: something must be done, therefore let's do anything

user55340

@GlenH7 actually, might have helped save the person since the lower air pressure and such.... trying to find it.

Shog9

8:24 PM

what's the worst-case here

user41796

@Shog9 Worst case? Our fee-fees (feelings) are hurt from seeing all the crap on our site.

Shog9

where are you seeing it?

enderland

@GlenH7 oh come on you can dream up worse worst-cases than this?

user41796

Ultimately, yes, this is all virtual and no one's lives or livelihoods are at stake from crap questions showing up on Progs. But we still take pride in the site and are striving for a high quality environment.

Shog9

sure

you got up to 40 downvotes a day that'll kick questions off the homepage

just sayin'

user41796

8:25 PM

@enderland I could, but they involve cupcakes and too many other inside jokes.

Shog9

only needs 4 of you

less than for closure

user55340

Assuming we're not out of down votes either...

user55340

that isn't an infrequent happening.

enderland

@Shog9 does SE have stats for how many people use programmers.stackexchange.com vs programmers.stackexchange.com/questions ?

Robert Harvey

Is the Google juice drained out of them as well? Otherwise, it's just putting scarlet letters all over everything.

enderland

8:26 PM

I've always been curious

user41796

@RobertHarvey And the associated whinging from heavy downvoting

Robert Harvey

I don't care about that.

Oh, and about downvoting...

Is this being downvoted for being a bad answer, or is it being downvoted over the "no effort expended by the OP" butthurt? — Robert Harvey ♦ 4 mins ago

user55340

@RobertHarvey I'm guessing the "don't answer questions you aren't certain of, and if you are certain of fix the question if its an issue"

Robert Harvey

Frankly, I don't see what the problem is with the question.

user55340

The earlier version read like a 'give me the codes' and someone did.

Robert Harvey

8:32 PM

It's still a "give me the codes," but who cares? It's not like it's a work order.

user55340

> I have a list as shown below
...
I want to take similar key elements and form a dictionary with key name as id(additional key added to the pair) as
...
Please share some solution

Robert Harvey

Ick.

So it's all about the OP's grasp of the English language.

user55340

The OP had trouble with english, but its also able to easily read that as 'write some code for me'

Robert Harvey

1 min ago, by Robert Harvey

It's still a "give me the codes," but who cares? It's not like it's a work order.

user55340

And when people do that without fixing the problem statement in the question from 'write some code for me' and writes the code for them, it encourages the OP and others to continue to ask such questions.

user55340

8:34 PM

Thus, the down votes to try to discourage that... and combine it with the meta effect and angry people.

user55340

When you mix in some mod reopening in there which gives tacit approval of such questions... down votes are the only things that mods can't reverse.

Robert Harvey

It's an abuse of the voting system. Votes are supposed to be about the quality of the post, not about gaming the system (which, by the way, is what "put 4 downvotes on it so it disappears from the front page" is, @shog9).

user55340

(and yea, it makes your job that much harder)

user41796

@RobertHarvey +1000 if I could

user55340

We get people complaining about all the closed and down voted questions on P.SE fairly regularly... haven't had one in a bit though. Sure we're due for another one. Downvote to hide from one of the front pages seems to abate that a bit.

Robert Harvey

8:38 PM

As long as the downvotes reflect the quality of the post, I have no problem with that.

The downvotes on the initial draft of that SO question are entirely justified. The downvotes on the answer, not so much.

user55340

What tools does one have to say "don't answer bad questions?"

Shog9

14 mins ago, by GlenH7

@Shog9 Worst case? Our fee-fees (feelings) are hurt from seeing all the crap on our site.

if it's crap, downvote it until you don't see it.

If it's not crap, then doing that is abuse.

Robert Harvey

No argument there.

Shog9

on the flip side, closing crap because you don't want to see it... While not wrong... Is sort of the long road.

user41796

Not everything that needs to be closed is complete crap.

Robert Harvey

8:39 PM

@MichaelT Comments, and refraining from upvoting.

Shog9

@GlenH7 well, that's a different issue

user41796

We close because it's off-topic for the site

Shog9

I did ask for worst case...

user41796

(thanks for pointing that out)

Shog9

if "lots of OT not-crap" is a big problem as well, we might be looking at this entirely the wrong way about

user55340

8:40 PM

@RobertHarvey flagged as 'not constructive', and, well, they've got a positive score and rep from ignoring those comments.

enderland

I think worst case is people get so frustrated they stop community moderating

user41796

I'm using "crap" as short-hand for questions that are off-topic for the site and are of varying degrees of quality ranging from absolutely abysmal to "you should have read the FAQ closer"

Robert Harvey

The worst case is not hurt feelings from the naz... er, good cultivators of the site. The worst case is people come along who might otherwise participate, and don't take the site seriously. The worst case is that damage which you never see.

gnat

@Shog9 won't happen to me no matter how much I vote down. Thing is, I don't use your toy link for Googlers (tried it, for active user it badly sucks), I use programmers.stackexchange.com/questions?sort=active (voted down questions stay there)

Shog9

yeah, we need a filter there too

user41796

8:41 PM

@RobertHarvey That's a much more apropos worst case than mine

Shog9

score:0..

user55340

@gnat until 20ks delete the worst of them...

Shog9

score:-3..

something

@gnat also, isn't the home page back to active sort? It should be...

gnat

146

Q: Allow users to optionally filter out low-quality questions

Lots of people are talking about this, so time to throw my hat in the ring. Note that this is just my idea and hasn't really been vetted by other Stack Exchange employees (probably some of them will chime in here). Background: of "rep addicts" and "help vampires" See this answer to "Why is Stac...

...and follow up discussions, "feedback requested #1, #2 etc" I am watching this series :)

Robert Harvey

For the really egregious cases, I ask for moderator intervention, even though @ThomasOwens doesn't like it.

I've got a thousand helpful flags on this site. The only reason I don't have two thousand is because Thomas asked me to "let the close system work."

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