The Whiteboard

user55340

1:07 AM

@RobertHarvey programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/241456/…

user55340

4:24 AM

@gnat listen to the latest podcast. blog.stackoverflow.com/2014/05/… - you might like it.

gnat

4:46 AM

@MichaelT "Demonstrably good questions" hmm are they trying to promote what they ignore so thoroughly in the hot questions

56

Q: In “network hot” questions formula, discard answers when voting evidence indicates that these are not good data points

TL;DR When votes of 20... 30... 100 users clearly indicate that only one or two answers are popular, it does not make sense to pretend that other answers are popular too. In current version of “network hot” questions formula (AnswerCount * Qscore) *, all answers up to 10 are assumed to equally...

user41796

2:28 PM

0

A: If a duplicate question has a different accepted answer, does this imply the question is too opinion based?

I recognize that comment.... In my opinion, the original question, as asked: Simplicity-efficiency tradeoff really is a duplicate of If my team has low skill, should I lower the skill of my code?. And we can use the OP's ending questions to prove that point. Do I have to keep it simple (s...

enderland

@MichaelT you got overtime and bonuses as a software dev? that's kinda neat :)

user55340

@enderland "this team is behind on its tasks... you are all required to work 48h/week until these tasks are done, don't worry... you'll be getting overtime for it."

user41796

@enderland From what I remember him saying before, the base wages were a bit screwy because of the bonus structure

enderland

@MichaelT yeah that's kinda how my current group works too actually, at this point in my life I'm ok with it but longer term??? pffffffffffffffffft

I'm curious if the team I'm interviewing for will even have overtime as an option, either, I'm guessing no

user55340

My team was on "mandatory 50" from July through the end of October to "support the POS" because other teams were up to par on supporting it yet.

enderland

2:38 PM

I'm technically on optional 50 right now, but it's a pain in the rear because I have to be at least 48 to get any paid OT

user55340

If you want to have some semblance of weekends, that means 5x10... which is utterly soul crushing. And if you have 1h of break in there for lunch, this means you are working from 8am to 7pm every day. Sure, the OT is nice...

enderland

@MichaelT I've been working through lunch more or less

Because 5x10 IS soul crushing, especially when I have a 40 min commute each way...

user55340

@enderland I did too... that and stocking snack food at the desk.

enderland

Yeah, I know it makes me less productive overall but... f that, my life is more important to me than my career :)

@MichaelT I guess I'm going to meet all of the team I'm interviewing for between the different interviews/lunch

user55340

OT as a developer is a double edged sword...

enderland

2:42 PM

I know I'm more effective/sharp when I'm rested

and sleep is the first thing to go when I work OT

user55340

That said, if Employer^^ had realized a bit more of OT law in Wisconsin, they could have screwed us over completely...

user55340

dwd.wisconsin.gov/er/labor_standards_bureau/…

user41796

@MichaelT I'm sure they knew of it and just didn't out of generosity and compassion for the employee.

user55340

> Persons Exempt From Overtime in Certain Businesses and Circumstances
(15) Certain computer professionals. Any employee who is a computer programmer, software engineer, or other similarly skilled worker, who, in the case of an employee who is compensated on an hourly basis, is compensated at a rate of not less than $27.63 an hour, and whose primary duty is one of the following:
The application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software, or system functional specifications.

enderland

I think most OT law only applies to people making less than probably all engineers/developers

I know federal law is similar to that as well

user55340

2:45 PM

Computer professionals that make more than $27.63 in WI don't need to be paid OT differentials.

user55340

@GlenH7 I suspect it was more of "you know, if we paid them more than $27.63, we'd have to create another classification in the payroll system... and that would take too much time... just leave it like it is - the same for everyone."

enderland

@MichaelT I do wonder why that is a specific exemption though

user41796

@MichaelT I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt....

user55340

@enderland Because programmers will do those crazy hours when there something interesting. Startups doing LONG hours isn't uncommon. If they had to pay the programmer who worked all night several days in a row even more...

enderland

@MichaelT Well yeah. But there are other fields like that too, our facilities people are here 10+ hours a day and I'm pretty sure are not getting paid overtime (not to mention certain job classifications are simply not eligible for overtime at my company, once you are a supervisor for example)

user55340

2:49 PM

facilities types typically belong to strong unions (or strong at the time that was written).

user41796

@enderland In some states, professional engineers are exempt from overtime pay by state law.

enderland

@MichaelT I mean the engineers, sorry

@GlenH7 yeah overtime is a mess around the USA

would it be weird to ask the people doing this 2 hour technical interview for a rough idea of what they want to ask about, prior to the interview (for an internal interview)? I'm not sure how that would be received but am planning on doing so

user41796

The argument with engineers is that they should be paid for the job not the hours worked. The theory being that it eliminates a potential conflict of interest on the engineer's part.

user41796

@enderland given that it's an internal interview, that wouldn't be too far from the ordinary

user55340

Part of the ironic bit is that if they just upped the cross the board pay to $28 and then did it as 40h with flex (and no OT differential), they'd probably still have quite a few people who had left because of the stress... and able to hire more...

Thomas Owens

2:53 PM

I miss overtime at 40.1. I actually need to plan my life if I want OT. :(

enderland

@GlenH7 Yeah that's what I figure, though the turn around is about 1 working day so hopefully they either have a good feel or get back to me before the end of the day today :)

@GlenH7 I feel bad working overtime somewhat since if I'm doing actual work (rather than meetinsg/etc) then I am pretty sure working overtime makes me worse and as a result I have to work more hours, resulting in more overtime

But man oh man is it hard to convince managers that "hours in seat" doesn't always result in higher overall productivity

user41796

There are quite a few studies from the past and somewhat recently that show how productivity takes a nose dive with OT

enderland

@GlenH7 studies only exist for manual labor types of work, not knowledge work

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence that it happens for knowledge work, too, though, but no real research. Some persuasive articles but nothing definitive

user41796

No, the ones I'm referring to are knowledge workers

enderland

46

Q: Does working over 40 hours a week makes you less productive?

A few articles claim that working more than 40 hours per week makes you less productive. Longer workweeks eventually make you less productive than 40-hour work weeks. From http://www.inc.com/geoffrey-james/stop-working-more-than-40-hours-a-week.html ..there's a century of research establishi...

psychology work

You should add an answer - I burned all my rep adding a bounty and no one added an answer which has any research with respect to knowledge workers

user41796

3:06 PM

Can't find the link I was thinking of. I'll try looking for it again this afternoon

enderland

@GlenH7 I'm legitimately curious, I spent a inordinate amount of time researching this about a year ago and couldn't find anything excepting tons of well written and convincing opinions (with no data)

user41796

The one I'm thinking of referenced the issues at EA, and had a bit of a history about why the 40 hour week came about in the first place. A lot of the material in that Skeptics -> Salon article was similar but wasn't quite the article I was thinking of.

user41796

And I'm pretty sure Yourdon or Brooks touches upon it in Death March or Mythical Man Month.

enderland

Yeah, I found a lot of "this just doesn't make sense" - but finding research supporting that was hard

user55340

MMM doesn't deal with OT. Peopleware does though.

user41796

3:18 PM

Then I think it was Yourdon with Death March when he talks about OT

user41796

Or maybe I'm just making that all up. :-(

user55340

(looking up my copy...)

user55340

Peopleware: Overtime: 'disturbances as cause of, 41-42', 'myths, 15-16', 'side effects, 152-154', and 'unpaid 14-16'

user55340

20 search results for 'overtime' in Deathmarch.

Zeroth

Hmm, does this mean we need to do studies on knowledge workers and overtime?

enderland

3:21 PM

@Zeroth the trick is quantifying knowledge work into a measurable and comparable metric. "lines of code!"

Blue collar work is much easier to do this with

Zeroth

Good point. Maybe quality of output?

and of course there's the... whatever that effect is called where productivity immediately rises whenever there's a change in the workplace

user55340

@Zeroth How do you measure quality of output?

user55340

And is perfection what is needed?

enderland

RFC 1149.5 specifies 4 as the standard IEEE-vetted random number.

user55340

> For example, even if management insists on large amounts of involuntary overtime during the project, you'll find that the team members are speidnging the evening hours and weekends (times when the high-level managers who imposed the overtime are virtually certain not to be present) catching up with personal phone calls, writing letters to their family, or sitting around the coffee machine shooting the breeze with one another.

enderland

3:27 PM

@MichaelT Because that never happens during the workday, ever... ;)

user55340

> In many cases, the biggest factors in motivation/demotivation will revolve around the dynamics of the overall team; ... But there are two specific issues that also have a significant impact on motivation which are usually under the manager's direct control: rewards and overtime.

user55340

This was part of the problem at Employer^^, rewards weren't even under the manager's control.

enderland

@MichaelT I think any financial reward isn't here for me either, but perks are definitely

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