The Whiteboard

user55340

12:23 AM

Yes! Close votes again!

user55340

0

Q: What are the top 50 hardest companies to interview for?

I feel like I want to make a big jump in my career. The two biggest ways, that come to my mind, to improve my career would be either to work for a company with high prestige or start my own. Starting my own sounds fun, but it's not straight-forward. Joining a company with high prestige means bein...

user55340

1:50 AM

!%&*( - the .gov copyright website is broken (site says stuff about shutdown) because of the shutdown - I'm having difficulty naming line and verse of copyright law.

maple_shaft

Hey guys... wanted to share a story I saw on Slashdot...

spectrum.ieee.org/podcast/telecom/internet/crowdsource-control

Research study that shows a random upvote can cause herding behavior in online communities

Matt D

i wonder if we can use reddit to predict stock market movement

maple_shaft

le tank

le crash

notice.usa.gov

I am ashamed of this country right now

user55340

2:07 AM

@maple_shaft Not too surprising. I'll go back to A Group and point to two of the behaviors exhibited by groups:

user55340

> The second basic pattern that Bion detailed: The identification and vilification of external enemies
The third pattern Bion identified: Religious veneration

user55340

Upvotes and downvotes can be ascribed to these two patterns of behavior. And you're just nudging them in that direction or the other.

user55340

Ask a question about "what company should I interview at" on P.SE? That's one of our 'external enemies' and it gets downvoted.

user55340

Say something is good, and people will agree with that. Upvotes and downvotes are at times upvotes and downvotes on themselves (people casting an upvote because they don't like down votes - thats a different community within the community).

maple_shaft

@MichaelT it is interesting isn't it?

I honestly believe I am a charlatan

lately when I comment or answer people vote me up prolly because of my diamond

and because I am a positive optimistic person

My shrink told me about this...

Impostor syndrome

The impostor syndrome, sometimes called impostor phenomenon or fraud syndrome, is a psychological phenomenon in which people are unable to internalize their accomplishments. Despite external evidence of their competence, those with the syndrome remain convinced that they are frauds and do not deserve the success they have achieved. Proof of success is dismissed as luck, timing, or as a result of deceiving others into thinking they are more intelligent and competent than they believe themselves to be. Definition The psychological experience of believing that one’s accomplishments came ...

this is pretty much my world view

user55340

2:17 AM

@maple_shaft Consider that mods are, to an extent, the incarnation of the community. What you say is true. Period (I'm not helping that syndrome, am I?). Thus, whatever you say is part of the 'religious veneration'.

maple_shaft

@MichaelT Heavy lies the crown

user55340

Consider this question (and what its about) in that context

user55340

-16

Q: Time until voting starts

Shouldn't the ability to vote(up/down) begin only after a particular amount of time has lapsed since the initial post? Same is true for accepting an answer to a question, both of which you yourself have posted or is answered by someone else. I think the reasoning behind those limitations would ea...

discussion feature-request voting

user55340

> This post received like 4 up-vote less then 11 seconds or so. It was happening right when I wasn't even through with second line I guess. Was it a real vote? Or I'll read it completely after I give my vote? Or how fast can a person read and decide his/her vote?

user55340

(from an earlier revision) - this was a link to....

user55340

2:21 AM

48

A: Let's put our friendship aside!

Nate, you were emailed details regarding your suspension when it happened. The details - and the opportunity to correspond privately with the moderators - were also linked to you on the site. The last message from the moderators is still linked to on page 2 of your global inbox. Nate, you keep t...

user55340

And you've got both sides of the coin there. Veneration of Shog, and vilification of someone trying to say voting needs to be restricted somehow.

maple_shaft

@MichaelT I think when somebody posts a complaint against the way the community operates... that person becomes villified by default

unless the person has a diamond or is popular or high ranking

Goodness

user55340

> Bion was a psychologist who was doing group therapy with groups of neurotics. (Drawing parallels between that and the Internet is left as an exercise for the reader.) The thing that Bion discovered was that the neurotics in his care were, as a group, conspiring to defeat therapy.

user55340

That slightly describes MSO.

maple_shaft

lol

user55340

2:24 AM

> There was no overt communication or coordination. But he could see that whenever he would try to do anything that was meant to have an effect, the group would somehow quash it. And he was driving himself crazy, in the colloquial sense of the term, trying to figure out whether or not he should be looking at the situation as: Are these individuals taking action on their own? Or is this a coordinated group?

maple_shaft

we form tribes

it is a human thing

You aren't allowed in the No Homers Club

user55340

Btw, behavior pattern #1 in that list...

user55340

> The first is sex talk, what he called, in his mid-century prose, "A group met for pairing off." And what that means is, the group conceives of its purpose as the hosting of flirtatious or salacious talk or emotions passing between pairs of members.

user55340

The forced 'no private messages' on chat.SE appears to nip that one a bit.

maple_shaft

I think a lot of people look for stuff like that in a community

We are closer to Wikipedia than we are to your typical forum though

user55340

2:27 AM

Yep. Once again, the nothing private.

user55340

Though poke a bit in MSO and you'll find people asking about how to deal with people setting up dates in chat.

user55340

(heh... digging into that on MSO... found someone asking if ELU chat was ever off topic)

maple_shaft

@MichaelT Setting up dates?

as in

romantic dates?

user55340

yep.

maple_shaft

Didn't realize that kind of stuff was going on here

user55340

2:30 AM

33

Q: Definitive rules on chat rooms with non-technical discussion

Related: flagging a chatroom which has no technical discussion (2) , flagging a chatroom which has no technical discussion I've noticed that there are lots of chat rooms on chat where there isn't much technical discussion. By "isn't much" I mean: People advertising their own posts (not cou...

discussion chat

user55340

> Here's what I do see in the rooms (mix and match):
Flirting. Yes, flirting.
Exchanging emails

maple_shaft

Honestly the last thing I think about on a stackexchange site is sex

user55340

@maple_shaft here here? Whiteboard? nope. Other chat rooms else SE... sometimes apparently.

maple_shaft

even on skeptics

user55340

Hmm... if this ever makes it, I wonder what its chatroom will be like?

user55340

2:32 AM

82

Relationships and Dating

Proposed Q&A site for people seeking answers to questions about dating, long term relationships, love, marriage or other commitments, and everything else typically considered a "relationship".

Currently in commitment.

maple_shaft

@MichaelT The highest voted question in the proposal stage was about Open Relationships

so I am guessing... a lot of sex

user55340

user55340

That list makes me chuckle a bit.

user55340

Pets #2, Astronomy #4.

maple_shaft

Open Source Sex? Interesting concept... you can have sex with other people but you must include the license?

skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/sexuality

This is an interesting list

user55340

2:35 AM

@maple_shaft There's a lot of data exchanging there... you don't want to give away all your IP... reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/afpez/… (not exactly a work safe title)

maple_shaft

31

Q: Did astronauts or cosmonauts have sex in space?

The Guardian: US and Russian astronauts have had sex in space for separate research programmes on how human beings might survive years in orbit, according to a book published yesterday. Pierre Kohler, a respected French scientific writer, says in The Final Mission: Mir, The Human Adventu...

medical-science sexuality space

kinky

user55340

I recall reading (yes READING) a playboy article about that topic.

user55340

sfsite.com/fsf/2001/bova0102.htm (you'll get a raised eyebrow at work) and also glance at philsp.com/homeville/isfac/t113.htm (no raised eyebrow). Look at who and where "A Meeting with Medusa" was published.

user55340

A Meeting with Medusa

A Meeting with Medusa is a science fiction novella by Arthur C. Clarke. It was originally published in 1971 and has since been included in several collections of Clarke's writings. Plot summary Taking place partly on Earth and partly in the atmosphere of Jupiter, the story tells of Howard Falcon, the captain of a new and experimental giant-sized helium-filled airship. When an accident causes the ship to crash, Falcon is badly injured and takes over a year to fully recover. Later, Falcon promotes an expedition to explore the atmosphere of Jupiter. After several years and many trial...

maple_shaft

@MichaelT nice sci fi book drop

The first I thought about it was in Peter Hamilton's Nights Dawn trilogy

the captain has a sex room in his ship, with padded walls

several highly descriptive scenes of him and his crew making use of it, because apparently people are hyper horny in the future

gnat

10:18 AM

I would expect common sense to eventually prevail (over FGITW) at SO if you establish a new feature that low score (<3 or <2) quick answers will be auto-deleted when (while) question is in closed state. Think of how this will work in the long run and, especially, how this will dance along with roomba — gnat Sep 28 at 10:24

can't stop thinking about how to marry roomba and FGITW. One SEDE query that comes to mind is, "how many closed, score < 1 SO questions would become eligible for roomba if answers posted during question grace period with score < 2(or 3) would be auto-deleted"

Jimmy Hoffa

2:32 PM

@maple_shaft Just right now?

@maple_shaft Sure beats the opposite:

Dunning–Kruger effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes. Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. David Dunning and Justin Kruger of Cornell University conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent...

enderland

@JimmyHoffa this is my nightmare

Jimmy Hoffa

To be sure, the concept is generally scary to any knowledge worker because it betrays the truths of cognitive dissonance which are that there is literally no verifiable way for us to genuinely know whether or not we're competent. It's an undecidable problem, and we base our entire lives on an assumption that the decision is one way (that we are) with absolutely no way to prove it is

and often times the assumption flips the other way, you end up feeling like an imposter, and then you feel trapped in the life you've created because you rely on it to take care of you even though you don't genuinely think you are competent. But again just gotta remember it's undecidable, it can't be proven whether you are or not

user55340

2:51 PM

Another impact of the shutdown - again the national parks... consider those people who had a wedding scheduled at one this weekend. Months in advance a dozen people booked airline tickets to get there and rooms... and are now trying to get refunds while the wedding is rescheduled to another location or time.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa it also makes me pissed off I'm paid close to the same as coworkers with no ability to do awesome technical stuff and basically just exist

What's a good article I can link people which is basically "how to ask programming questions?"

thinking this but for newer people it's kinda cryptic

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT The biggest impact that pisses me off is that IT COSTS THE GOVERNMENT BOATLOADS MORE MONEY THAN IF THEY DIDN'T SHUTDOWN

all those weddings were going to pay the government, all sorts of government services collects money from the public and will no longer be doing that, but the expenditures really don't go down, especially if they back-pay all the workers like they always have in the past

But I suppose that belongs on politics.SE

user55340

The big national parks run a profit.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT Not right now they don't.

user55340

3:06 PM

(and by that, they're not trying to make a profit... they just do... the big parks profit makes up for the losses on the small ones)

Jimmy Hoffa

How about that weather.

user55340

The bit with the weddings though - and the tourists... they help support the small towns around it (that were already feeling the pinch with the sequester)

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT 45 minutes north of here they just lost a bunch of federal assistance to repair this, and many many other roads like it, which are to see snow this Friday and if the repairs aren't done soon, many towns in the mountains around here are going to be in a literal lock-in for months

user55340

One of the parts that is still running is the emergency fund for disaster recovery.

Jimmy Hoffa

People will die because they can't get a timely ambulance ride to Denver. It happens already sometimes, but it's going to happen more now that the 1.5 hour drive between denver and Estes is washed out, so it's a ~4 hour drive to go the other way around, and in the winter helicopters can't fly the area much of the time due to weather

user55340

3:11 PM

I'm not sure about roads themselves and that depends on who owns the roads (national, state, county?)

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT Sure, but not entirely. We have lost a portion of assistance, it was reported yesterday by some of the people working on the repairs

user55340

@JimmyHoffa I did hear a bit on NPR about that the other day.

user55340

While its not much, one of the agencies that is still running (not cut back) is the small business loan for disaster recovery.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT Yeah, one of my coworkers husbands was apparently interviewed on national NPR (not just local CPR) this morning I heard someone around the office saying. They live up past that road in the picture and he works up there

enderland

0

Q: Replace select into table by sub query

I have the following code i i need to write sub query to return the same result who can help me please The leader well kill e if i dont find the solution SELECT Users.UserID, Users.FirstName,courses.CourseID,Count(Exams.examID)NumExams into CurrentExams FROM ClassCourses INNER JOIN...

sql-server

best question ever - "The leader well kill e if i dont find the solution"

user55340

3:25 PM

As in, literally there will be murder if a solution isn't found? And to think we complain about vacation time and benefits in the states... — Yuck 11 mins ago

user55340

Almost seems like an incentive to not help /morbid — billinkc 6 mins ago

user55340

I wonder if this would be a time to suggesting quit your job before you die....

user55340

3:49 PM

search.cpan.org/~mjd/SuperPython-0.91/SuperPython.pm

user55340

> SuperPython brings to Perl all the benefits of Python's vaunted whitespace-sensitivity, including readability, maintainability, less punctuation, and all that other great crap. In fact, it goes several steps further than Python in this direction. However, SuperPython retains Perl's powerful and flexible underlying semantics.

Neil

@MichaelT Sure, maybe they'll kill you if you don't do your job properly, but you'll lose your great dental package

2

user55340

@Neil Nope, they destroy the jaw to make it harder to identify when you are found later.

user55340

package SuperPython;

$VERSION = 0.91;

use Filter::Simple sub
{
    s/( *)	/chr(length($1))/ge;
};

1;

Neil

@MichaelT Well still.. great dental package..

Hard to find

user55340

3:54 PM

The code for this converts a run of spaces (delimited by tabs) into the corresponding character. Lets you do some funky obsctufated things with whitespace and make fun of python while doing it.

Neil

@MichaelT I don't use Python, but making fun of Python is always fun

user55340

4:24 PM

Toy my brother sent me a link to last nigh - gosphero.com

user55340

►

Neil

@MichaelT Best. Brother. Ever.

user55340

I think it was in part a suggest to get it for his kids as a christmas present... which isn't out of the question.

Neil

I'd be more interested in the programming aspect

user55340

(age at xmas would be 3.75 and 2.1)

Neil

4:30 PM

Maybe that is a bit young though

user55340

The 'interact with the device' - they are both very competent iphone users.

Neil

@MichaelT The idea has a lot of potential

I'd never heard of it until now, so I'm not sure if it is already popular or what

user55340

Its fairly new.

Neil

Got to run, sorry

user55340

The 2.0 version was in August.

psr

4:40 PM

@maple_shaft To me the interesting thing is that some people clearly are imposters (not you, maple_shaft), so, how often do they think of themselves as imposters? The correlation could go either way.

Ampt

I am sparticus!

user55340

@Ampt No, you are ampt.

Ampt

but... I am... sparticus?

user55340

Nope. And you can only change your name every 30 days... so if you do, you'll be stuck with it for awhile.

Ampt

Wait. You can CHANGE your name??!?!

user55340

4:51 PM

Go to your profile

user55340

Ampt, Milwaukee, WI

1.6k 2 16

java game-development git agile object-oriented scrum design

user55340

Click 'edit'

Ampt

(debating whether committing to this joke is worth being sparticus for the next month...)

I am sparticus

user41796

that zing may have come across too harshly, sorry about that. Meant it as a chiding joke.

user55340

(It takes up to an hour for it to get to chat)

Ampt

4:53 PM

I laughed haha

No harshness taken on my end

user55340

Say 'whee!' for eventual consistency.

user55340

Sparticus, Milwaukee, WI

1.6k 2 16

java game-development git agile object-oriented scrum design

Sparticus

~~god damnit I walked into that one.~~

user55340

Just remember to have fun later with "I was Sparticus"

user41796

You'd think that sparticus would have more rep than a mere 1.6k though

Sparticus

4:54 PM

~~I've got to stop making this so easy~~

Nope, sparticus is smarter than that

no way he's taking any responsibility for this site

user41796

but the barbarians are at the gates now. We need you @Sparticus

user55340

See, now you need to get 3k rep so that you can get 'sparticus' on all those close votes.

user41796

@MichaelT that's as good of a reason to change a username that I can think of

Sparticus

@GlenH7 I think the closest thing we have to a barbarian around here is @JimmyHoffa

user41796

At the next mod election, I'll change my handle to Death and use that as the basis of my campaign. I'm sure SE proper will be totally in favor of it too

user41796

4:59 PM

I'll need a much cooler gravatar though

Sparticus

@gnat might fight you for the title of death

user55340

@Sparticus Functional programming is a remnant of the more civilized days...

user55340

I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the MIT computer science program permamently.

user41796

I don't see him ever changing his handle. Fits his MO too well

maple_shaft

@JimmyHoffa Get out of my head! GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!

:)

user41796

5:09 PM

Suspension in 3.... 2.... 1.....

maple_shaft

Maple Shaft... abusing mod powers since 2011

user41796

@maple_shaft In reference to the earlier conversation, I know a number of talented engineers who feel the same way

maple_shaft

@GlenH7 I feel it often when I encounter an engineer who really understands something that I have difficulty grasping

I had trouble realizing the value of state machines..

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft Can I interest you in a monad?

psr

@maple_shaft It isn't easy getting JimmyHoffa out of your head. He spent a lot of time breaking unwilling developers free from the grip of object oriented languages. He was a functional de-programmer.

user55340

5:12 PM

Consider that there are so many areas of computing that different people can grasp different areas.

maple_shaft

... this guy kept trying to convince me of the superiority of state machines to handle a particular scenario and I tried... tried but couldn't really figure out how to implement it right

I felt very inadequate

user41796

@maple_shaft I can certainly empathize with that. Engineering is horrific for having huge amounts of highly specialized areas that simply require some underlying talent in order to make it all sort out correctly

maple_shaft

@psr See... you aren't helping... I don't really understand functional programming

Scala... I get it... but then I don't

user41796

@maple_shaft I'll just bash him and claim he was a state machine bigot. Regrettably, there are too many who think the solution to everything is a state machine

maple_shaft

@GlenH7 or regex

Jimmy Hoffa

5:15 PM

@maple_shaft This happens every time I talk to a dev who really groks math, and the CS fundamentals, sorting and algorithms et al, I can design all sorts of stuff but when you start getting into all that my vision get's blurry and I have to sit down

user55340

The understanding of state machines is something way down one path of CS. If you asked him about a chomsky hierarchy he could babble on for hours. Ask him to implement an ORM and he may stare at you blankly.

user41796

regex is the equivalent of voodoo incantation or magic spells. It works, but no one can tell you why it works

psr

@maple_shaft Nobody does. There's actually no such thing. Anyone claiming to have done it is lying.

2

user55340

(deep down, regex are state machines - and understanding of one often helps the understanding of the other)

maple_shaft

@MIchaelT I think I have a problem with solutions to problems that don't appear to be immediately practical

Jimmy Hoffa

5:16 PM

@psr Functional Programming's all an invented trick by corporations to make programmers feel stupid so they'll accept lower salaries

maple_shaft

I am a problem solver at heart... and to solve problems you have to make the solution appear as simply as possible

user55340

State machines, regular languages, context sensitive and context free grammars - all theoretical foundations for a particular class of problems.

user41796

@maple_shaft without renewing a flame war, but that's the difference between the theorist and an engineer. Engineers have to get stuff built. If theory helps, that's great, but they aren't committed to theories that don't work in the real world

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft I'm an idiot at heart, and to be an idiot at heart you have to make the beer be as available as possible

psr

@JimmyHoffa You seem to be asking for functional programmer money. We're willing to offer you PHP money just because we like you and we feel sorry for you.

user55340

5:18 PM

Sometimes, one can realize the relationship between a practical problem and the theory that isn't obvious to someone who doesn't know the theory and make that leap to a intuitive solution using that information.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT I sure hope so, otherwise reading about this stuff is wasting my time

maple_shaft

I am just used to mouth breathers having to babysit my work that I leave behind... if I actually pulled off a state machine then nobody would be able to figure it out

user55340

Haskell, however... thats all hogwash.

2

user55340

@maple_shaft The value of something being ugly but maintainable isn't to be underestimated.

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft See, the fact that you know that means you're not an idiot. One thing many people overlook: Crappy programmers genuinely don't think anybody else is bad, they think everybody in this industry is good like them. That's generally a pretty dead giveaway.

user55340

5:20 PM

Start tossing in lamdas and closures in your code... and 90% of the people after you will curse your name when looking at the code.

user41796

@MichaelT thecodelesscode.com/case/4

psr

@maple_shaft I've had to deal with the primary design constraint being what the maintenance developers would be able to understand.

maple_shaft

I cursed the name of the guy who introduced me to lambdas in his code... then when I learned it I apologized to him and thanked him

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT and 10% will be able to maintain it so much better than if you did it without closures, unfortunately we're usually not allowed to program for that 10%

@psr Such as "they would understand MUMPS" - "had to" is an understatement

maple_shaft

This conversation is getting very star driven

3

inb4 someone stars the above comment

gnat

5:23 PM

yesterday, I tried to change my name at MSO to gnat'); DROP table moderators;-- - it didn't let me through

5

guess there are many more who tried stuff like that

maple_shaft

@gnat I actually did that to a developer during code review

to show them why they should use prepared statements

and sanity checks

^ aforementioned being the maintenance developer I have to cater to

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft I'm a fan of insanity checks. if (msg is System.Object && Math.Rand() > 424242) throw new WtfException("BANZAIIII!!");

maple_shaft

LOL

psr

@JimmyHoffa Such as, "they would have trouble understand the MUMPS code I was contemplating." Sigh. (Makes me think of one project where another developer and I finally worked out a design and succession plan that just abandoned 3 sub-par developers. It was (much) faster to do it without them then dumb it down, in that case).

user41796

@maple_shaft Does this indirectly cycle back to the conversation about the TW comment of "just quit your job?" :-)

maple_shaft

5:27 PM

@GlenH7 The quality of my peers is unrelated to my current dissatisfaction

but it is correlated to the actual problem

problem(s)

The "vacuum of leadership" is like a 40ft hole in a 757 jet 30k ft in the air

user41796

At my previous gig, I was the top guy for what I was doing. And in some cases, there was a very wide gap between myself and the average person. It can be a very frustrating scenario to be in. The structure to help correct for those gaps was never provided / allowed.

enderland

but anyone you hire will be able to fill whatever role the person who left felt @GlenH7 - just find another coder!

maple_shaft

@GlenH7 Well... I am encouraged from "leadership" to improve things and provide gaps... but then developers can't be the end all be all savior of every dysfunction

user41796

@enderland AFAIK, 2 of the 4 FTE projects I had been given still haven't delivered, nor are they even close.

enderland

@GlenH7 yeah but I thought you can just find another person to replace anyone and not give a @#%# about the quality of the people you hire regardless of skillset!

user41796

5:32 PM

@maple_shaft I fully agree. Similar undercurrents led me to "just quit my job". Although I lined another one up before leaving.

maple_shaft

I was tasked with coming up with a Business Requirements Template for the BA's, an Architecture template for the Architects, an SLA for the users, and teaching the Project Managers the concept of Gant charts and Agile

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 This was my entire time for ~3 years at previous employer. Pros: They actually knew it and gave me lots of leeway and valued my opinion. Got to do a lot of mentoring and learn a lot about how to present and teach new concepts Cons: Absolutely no one to learn from, and constantly needing to mentor people.

maple_shaft

the incompetence is truly terrifying

user41796

@maple_shaft Wow, that has some crazy similarities to where I was at ~1.5 years ago.

maple_shaft

actually I am not even sure if it is incompetence ...

Jimmy Hoffa

5:34 PM

@maple_shaft At least you're not on union switch and signal. Surely you've heard from colleagues horror stories about that place.

user41796

@enderland They're still working through that business model decision, yes.

gnat

speaking of MSO, I just discovered a little gem there. @MichaelT I think you might be interested...

49

A: What aspects of psychology does Stack Overflow take advantage of?

Actually, the main psychological phenomenon underlying Stack Overflow (and numerous other sites with similar reputation/karma/badge/reward systems) is something that's been discussed on meta before: Intermittent Variable Reward. Although I think the "correct" term (or at least the one more commo...

maple_shaft

it might actually be just laziness..

gnat

...The result of this, particularly in humans, is addiction. People make up for the uncertainty of a reward with increased activity, hoping that it will get them "enough" of the reward.

Stack Overflow (and similarly-designed sites) stumbled upon this accidentally, or at least it would appear that way. Individually, the system of reinforcement appears to be continuous; you see a good answer, you upvote, you see a bad answer, you downvote. But when you look at the big picture, which includes:

Different users being online at different times;

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft Selfishness/Apathy caused laziness. Part and parcel of the culture there; they got theirs so they have no desire to care beyond the minimum necessary to keep the checks rolling in.

maple_shaft

5:36 PM

@JimmyHoffa That attitude... I can't ... friggin... stand it

I have likewise heard horror stories about US&S

very good ol' boys club ... old production line style management

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft I'll take the apathy over the shit I heard about US&S any day.

maple_shaft

@JimmyHoffa Its a pittsburgh thing

most places are like that

here

thats why I don't want to leave

this is the best the city has to offer me

user41796

@maple_shaft Moving isn't an option then?

Jimmy Hoffa

I heard PPG wasn't so bad (more like where you are; just slowly doing their thing, no interest in advncing but low stress) similarly of westinghouse (though they get the house cleaned every so often I understand)

user41796

I had to make that decision ~8 years ago. The town I was in was just too small and didn't have enough potential employers.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:39 PM

How sad it is that there's like a small hand full of giant corps that are basically 98% of the software positions there

maple_shaft

@GlenH7 I am pretty attached to the area... and I am too scared to move elsewhere.

@JimmyHoffa There are some small places that do interesting stuff but they pay crap.

Developers are SOOOO cheap here... that is why so many CMU startups do well here with little VC

user41796

@maple_shaft I hear that, and it's a valid decision to make. Was just raising it as an option / question. Moving reinforces just how many connections you had built up.

Jimmy Hoffa

If you're in pittsburgh doing software chances are significant you're either working for UPMC, WestingHouse, PPG, US&S, Western Penn Health or Alleghency County health, whatever it was called, or Management Consulting Services or whatever that place is called on penn ave at the corner where that old red fire house is... damn I can't remember the street names anymore

maple_shaft

@JimmyHoffa You mean Management Science Associates

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft Yeah, I interviewed one place that did software for some specialized biology microscope slide image analysis

maple_shaft

5:42 PM

I used to work there

Jimmy Hoffa

yeah them

I heard they were terrible for quality from a variety of ex-employees

maple_shaft

@JimmyHoffa They are good at giving junior level developers a chance in a very unfriendly job market

with that being said...

they start developers at $30k/yr

user41796

That's a grinder. Yikes

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft which isn't anything to shake a stick at considering rent prices within a few blocks of the office

maple_shaft

Even in this cheap cost of living area that is crap

and yeah that area around Penn is becoming gentrified

Jimmy Hoffa

5:44 PM

@maple_shaft For a junior.. iduno, I lived on that in Boulder, CO when I was a junior years ago. But then I was happy to have the opportunity and knew what I would turn it into

maple_shaft

rent around there is no like $1,200/month

Jimmy Hoffa

True

maple_shaft

Google has an office a couple blocks from MSA on Penn now

Jimmy Hoffa

Get a few blocks off breeze(wood?way?point?) and you can find ok prices for someone just starting there career with no responsibility

enderland

who the hell works for $30k doing software dev in the USA?

maple_shaft

5:45 PM

Point Breeze

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland Bad programmers

enderland

@JimmyHoffa then who are all the people everyone complains about here and at TW who are probably paid more than that! :P

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft yeah, I drove by it all the while it was being built whenever taking my kid to childrens

maple_shaft

@enderland I actually worked for them for $40k

I had 1 yr experience at the time though

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland This industry knows nothing of fairness in evaluating what someone's pay should be. Sadly much of it is based entirely on industry tenure because they don't know how else to do it.

maple_shaft

5:47 PM

People see it on my resume and assume I am a fool

I still have the stain of that place haunting my career

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft That's what I was always told by ex-MSA folks whenever they saw a resume with that on it.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa it's not just software dev, engineering has teh same problem

user41796

@maple_shaft Depends upon how long you were there, and how long ago it was. We have a few grinders in town. And they nudge the direction of the questions I'll ask. But it's never a permanent stain.

Jimmy Hoffa

I never let it color my judgement though, I take the resume as a personality test: Is this person authentic, genuine and trustworthy? Test him against his sales statement and that's all it tells me. Doesn't tell me squat of their skills, that's what the genuine technical questioning is for.

maple_shaft

@JimmyHoffa I agree

user41796

5:50 PM

@JimmyHoffa that's a really good point. I was talking with an "architect" at one of the local grinders. And he got really upset at any hint or allegation of them being a meat grinder. Kind of carried through to the rest of the conversation and reflected his personality.

maple_shaft

I can learn a lot from a persons skill and quality just by conversing about what they worked on

@GlenH7 I am highly skeptical of people with an architect title

Most are political appointments

or justifications for bloated salaries

user41796

But he was a senior architect. Surely that carries more weight, right?

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Yes, however much $20k/year more weighs

user55340

@enderland Former employer ranged from $15/h to $25/h (it was the 'bonuses' that made it go above that)... and it was the same payscale for all employees (from cashier to director).

user41796

Truth be told, that's probably all it was. The company is notoriously cheap across all pay grades

maple_shaft

5:53 PM

@GlenH7 Senior Architect in Pittsburgh is a justification to pay 6 figures for an employee that is not an MBA or a PM

user55340

@maple_shaft c2.com/cgi/wiki?ArchitectsPlayGolf c2.com/cgi/wiki?ArchitectsDontCode

enderland

@MichaelT that's a lot different I' suspect from most employers who only pay entry level people $30k a eyar

maple_shaft

@enderland These kids don't know any better. They work for two years, and then are shocked when they are offered a job elsewhere paying +30% higher salary

enderland

heh I bet!

maple_shaft

thats what happened to me at least, left for a startup, it was awesome... first time in my life I had more money then I knew what to do with

meh...

I got to get actual work done now

later guys

user55340

6:35 PM

@maple_shaft Should see the post new job one of my cow-orkers from the previous employer sent when he got a new job at a good shop.

user55340

Heh! I'm a pseudo-SE consultant.... ok... just really pseudo. From understanding SE's reputation framework and an understanding of A Group, I helped another developer with some ideas about implementing reputation in a crowd sourced application. Using privileges to reduce the maintenance duties of the administrators.

gnat

name-me-method questions are opinion-based (NC in old terms) but sometimes much fun...

@Izkata I believe yours isValidOfManyWaysToSkinACat — gnat 1 min ago

made me finally decide to cast CV (was pondering on it since yesterday)

Jimmy Hoffa

6:52 PM

Somewhat controversial maybe, but hilarious itsokaytobesmart.com/post/62934684990/vaccine-drug-ad-funny

Shots fired on capitol hill

user55340

7:33 PM

Whee! (was able to give an answer about the skiplist!)

Sparticus

7:49 PM

Wow, lots of pins on the right. I thought the government was shut down?

user55340

@Sparticus Well, they still need to try to pass a budget... the rest is about picking on Haskell and such.

Sparticus

Quit increasing our star debt ceiling moderators! Why should we be giving out our stars for free?!

@MichaelT it's a good thing it highlights your name for you otherwise I wouldn't have thought you were talking to me

Jimmy Hoffa

@Sparticus Nobody said they hit anybody, if it's shut down they were probably just using the area as a vast empty shooting range. Oh wait everyone there continues geting paid during shutdown because being rich already isn't good enough if you're a politician..

user55340

You're in the name limbo... where @Ampt works in the room tab thing, Sparticus is the message owner.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Some are forgoing pay during the shutdown - washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/10/01/…

Sparticus

7:55 PM

@JimmyHoffa I was talking about the number of pinned comments (Implying that the mods and room owners are an oppressive star-hoarding regime)

2

@MichaelT funny, I don't feel flexible enough to do limbo but apparently I am

Jimmy Hoffa

9:48 PM

Just bought a WD TV Live online... here's hoping it works to replace my old roku which is starting to misbehave

Sparticus

10:13 PM

man, nothing like listening to my professional guidance teacher make offhand racist remarks while telling us about professionalism on the job.

enderland

@Sparticus you should ask if StackExchange is an appropriate part of the professional worklife :)

Sparticus

I don't think he knows what the internet is....

salty old guy

he was head of hiring at a large tooling company back in the 70s and 80s which means he has a lot of insight... it's just not all practical at this point

enderland

10:28 PM

@Sparticus those folks are the best

Link

Hey, is there a good book/place to learn concepts/ideas and everything about bit manipulation works for C? I've been trying to use K&R, but it's a bit hard to understand at times..

user20683

10:40 PM

@Link King's C Programming is good, so is Kochan's book

Link

@WorldEngineer, okay then, I'll look at them, thanks.

user20683

@Link King is expensive, Kochan is less so

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