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user20683
8:00 PM
@enderland I killed it already, you're late to the party.
 
user55340
@enderland I got one in too.
 
user41796
@enderland There's one or two on there, which is sufficient. Doesn't need to be piled on. One or two are enough to send the message
 
ok, occasionally a single DV chases people away - wasn't sure if that Q was "worth" killing, I just read it as RANT PLZ
 
user55340
He's got two other questions that have rep...
 
user55340
 
user41796
8:01 PM
He's low rep, likely deleted to avoid additional DVs pulling him down even further
 
user20683
@MichaelT Found his new profile
 
user20683
BAHAHAHAHA
 
user55340
@WorldEngineer We were talking about it last night...
 
user20683
@MichaelT ah
 
user20683
I was doing things with my girlfriend last night
 
user20683
8:02 PM
my life is a priority queue and she has fully enabled interrupt status.
 
user55340
@WorldEngineer {trying to figure out how to make @Ampt joke there}
 
user41796
@WorldEngineer - is it safe to assume the IP address was checked before with that user? his profile was right at the edge of .... teen and troll.
 
user20683
@GlenH7 it's the same guy
 
user41796
so just a duplicate account, which is OK per SE rules.
 
user20683
Can't say more
 
user55340
8:05 PM
From the other account's deleted question's comment's...
 
user55340
> @AndyHarglesis Other accounts? Do tell... – Yannis Rizos♦ Jul 21 at 9:36
 
user20683
Again, can't say more
 
user41796
I'd come up with a whippy reply, but that will just put us back in the circular queue of threatening me with a diamond.... <sigh>
 
user41796
to which you could then respond with "go check for yourself already...."
 
user41796
Sometimes I hate how chess taught me to think 3 - 5 moves ahead.
 
user55340
 
user41796
Too bad one word answers don't quite explain things.
 
user55340
@GlenH7 "Can't say more" is three...
 
user41796
@MichaelT and "Again, can't say more" is four....
 
user55340
So combined, we've gotten 7 words out of him.
 
user41796
78 vs 185. C'mon Programmers!!!!
 
user41796
8:10 PM
collider scores
 
@MichaelT the title there is pretty awesome
 
@JimmyHoffa Have you looked at Rebol?
 
user55340
Well, I have to say this - at least he changed from "low level program the cpu directly" to something more feasible "target the jvm"
 
@MichaelT Can I get a screen shot? Now I'm curious
 
wtf
 
8:13 PM
@jozefg Not really, just read snippets about it a few times, heard of it a hand full of times but haven't touched it
 
access has "delete record" hotkeyd to "r"
not "d"
 
@JimmyHoffa I'm looking at it now, I'm kinda interested
 
@MichaelT Sir StupidName is back?
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa We think he's changed from stupid names.
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa the 13 yo version from Canada, yes
 
8:13 PM
@jozefg I recall it being interesting, I only wish I could actually dig into every thing I found that looked interesting
 
user55340
 
user55340
It got deleted by the roomba... which still confuses me that it runs against a meta.
 
@MichaelT vroooommmmm
 
@JimmyHoffa That's fair
I like Yannos' comment haha
 
@jozefg "Yannos" ? inb4ban :P
 
8:16 PM
Yannis, I can read..
 
:D
 
Haha in my defense, I haven't had coffee today
 
user55340
@jozefg At previous employer, I kept half a dozen 5h energies in stock at my desk.
 
user41796
@WorldEngineer
 
user41796
It sounds like this opinion is not particularly popular, but I don't think it is okay. Stack Exchange is a place of learning; you shouldn't have to worry about being judged for asking "dumb questions" later down the line. Moreover, this would exacerbate the issue of users keeping multiple accounts, one for asking questions, and one for providing answers. I've already seen this a number of times on SE. I think users do it because they appear more knowledgeable with less questions asked. — MikeS 2 mins ago
 
user41796
8:18 PM
He's a 101 rep user, so can't put a counter answer in on that question.
 
user41796
Yes, I'm arguing for more playing with the collider score, but I think it's fair to allow in a valid counter point and see what happens with it. I invited him to The Whiteboard in a reply comment.
 
@MichaelT That's a good idea..
 
user20683
@GlenH7 Mike should have enough
 
user55340
@jozefg The problem wasn't the "stock 5h energy" it was the "mandatory 10h days that you would otherwise fall asleep during for a prolonged time."
 
user41796
@WorldEngineer No answers, no questions - 101 rep comes from association bonus only. If he had an answer in somewhere else on the site, I would have upvoted it just to get him past the 10 point site rep threshold for the protection
 
8:25 PM
so do you folks get overtime pay if you work more than 40 hours?
I've just got the option to work up to 50 hours (with OT pay)
idk what is standard for others?
 
user55340
@WorldEngineer The protection doesn't take the association bonus as part of the amount to get past it. To the protection, he's got 1 rep.
 
user41796
@enderland In a previous life I got straight time for my OT pay, but was paid OT. Nowadays, I don't get the opportunity for paid OT
 
user55340
@enderland We did... but 4 months of 50h days... you just are drained. It doesn't help get stuff done. That messed up bug in october was in part from that... July, August, September, October.
 
yeah, I know that for sure
 
user20683
I disabled protection
 
user20683
8:27 PM
I actually need to go
 
user20683
things need doing
 
user41796
@WorldEngineer Thanks for taking it down
 
user41796
I removed my old comment and put up a new comment asking him to convert his comment to an answer
 
user55340
0
A: Is it appropriate for Interviewers to ask candidates for their Stack Exchange user name?

MikeSIt sounds like this opinion is not particularly popular, but I don't think it is okay to ask for this information. Stack Exchange is a place of learning; you shouldn't have to worry about being judged for asking "dumb questions" later down the line. I know I come to stack to broaden my knowledg...

 
user41796
Now he won't have to worry about protected questions anymore. :-)
 
user55340
8:35 PM
(102 vs 189)
 
user41796
C'mon Programmers!
 
user41796
it will be interesting to see at what time the interest on the question crests and if I'll rep cap or not
 
user55340
Well, you're at +17 from that, you'll likely repcap today. Though if its in the next 3.25h... hmm.
 
user41796
@MichaelT I'm just gonna call this Science! and call it fun.
 
user55340
 
user41796
8:46 PM
I'd swear that you have got to have some of that stuff bookmarked or sitting on a folder on your computer
 
wow, we may take over #1 spot yet. Less than double the score now - 189 vs 108
@MichaelT So we like to spend time together, I don't see the big deal.
 
user41796
@Ampt The commute seems a bit long though
 
user41796
You're up North. He's down South. Just sayin'
 
Racking up those frequent flier miles
(seriously though, I've put some miles on my car from the 2 hour ride to see my girlfriend)
 
user41796
don't hate us @gnat
3
 
user41796
8:54 PM
If anything, it proves the point about the collider score being messed up.
 
user41796
And it's not too late. You could add a high quality answer and we could overtake the superuser question. C'mon, go for the site pride!
 
@GlenH7 so sad that one can't DC/CV in chat (bragging - I've got 1 DV and 1 CV at the end of this day, smart spending)
 
user41796
ah, c'mon now, we can take that superuser question!
 
@GlenH7 that q, no problem, as long as it's under protection
1 hour ago, by World Engineer
It is now under my protection
 
user41796
it was pretty fun to watch though. Played out exactly as has been claimed in MSO posts
2
 
user55340
8:56 PM
@gnat But then a 101 rep user had a good comment that should have been an answer, so it was unprotected for at least a little while.
 
also, since it has been reddited it's not quite the same thing as collider masturbation. ~800 views in 2 hours are like genuine - compare to masturbated top question that got just 1,4K in 10 hours (99,99% lemmings)
@MichaelT well whatever as long as mods have an eye on particular question, I am OK with that. Bad thing about collider is it harms questions in a way impossible to control neither by community nor by mods, those that get in mods hands are not like that by definition
 
user55340
@GlenH7 and @gnat I think either of you could re-protect it...
 
user41796
I have flagged a few comments that really weren't happening. So it's being actively tended
 
user41796
I think it needs to be 1 day old before I can protect.
 
user41796
protect button isn't there on the Q for me
 
9:04 PM
I guess I ruined the experiment/fun by posting it to /r/programming, didn't I.
(Oh hey, it made it to #14! My first successful reddit post.)
 
Everyone on reddit is NO.
 
user55340
@Ampt .no? Norwegian?
 
@Brant I don't think so, that would make it a useful data point against typical in-collider bullshit :)
8 mins ago, by gnat
also, since it has been reddited it's not quite the same thing as collider masturbation. ~800 views in 2 hours are like genuine - compare to masturbated top question that got just 1,4K in 10 hours (99,99% lemmings)
 
user55340
(I remeber back in the day wishing for the domain name of "yes.maybe.no")
 
Also, I just earned a Booster badge, so at least 300 of those views came from Reddit.
 
9:07 PM
@MichaelT no, they all think we're stupid for saying yes
 
@psr you answered that one like a true MUMPS developer: Someone beaten down by bureaucracy so thick, it couldn't escape a language named after a horrendous disease. Bravo; good points because I too have lived under the rule of non-sense where we were basically not allowed to ask just about anything shy of a few technical questions
 
psr
Threw in a mild no. I usually don't throw another car on the train wreck like this.
 
The interviews mostly hinged on a staring contest
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa Fortunately it's been renamed Caché. Their marketing department apparently felt it was imperative that the new name also be completely unGoogleable.
@JimmyHoffa A lot of disabilities would make winning a staring contest difficult. Just saying.
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa Did it go like this.. ?
 
user55340
9:12 PM
 
@GlenH7 my answer sucks
 
psr
Dear god, I've got +3 in 5 minutes for a stupid answer. I feel dirty.
4
 
@GlenH7 yeah. now you know that sort of bitter fun don't you
Jul 22 at 16:54, by gnat
when you know how collider bug works, it's like watching the train wreck in the slow motion
 
how much rep do you need to see votes? :P
 
user55340
@enderland 1k
 
9:15 PM
hmm this Q will have to stay there for quite some time then :P
 
> bragging - I've got 1 DV and 1 CV at the end of this day, smart spending
and the winner is...
 
user55340
Part of why I don't do big bounties on MSO... I like seeing votes.
 
-1
A: Naming a sending/receiving module. Does the pattern have a name?

dave thiebenalthough I think Dispatcher would be fine, it sounds to me like a Broker http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broker_Pattern

 
user55340
(thats the privilege doc page)
 
9:17 PM
@MichaelT I try to keep my MSO rep over 2K. Once went lower with bounties and quickly discovered that it's not comfortable without free edits
 
lol I need to put more answers here
but I think I'll have to basically write an answer, then cut it down by 75%
 
@psr some things don't scale well
> protect your own users from scale ...human interaction, many to many interaction, doesn't blow up like a balloon... ( A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy)
 
@gnat I prefer the more friendly "A group is very nice and sometimes there's a picnic"
 
heres a question... does the original question asker know that we're doing this to his question? haha
 
one of the most thorough researchers of hot questions made a pretty wise feature request (SE team didn't give a shit as usual)...
15
Q: The association bonus should not enable users to vote on every site

Mad ScientistThe number of upvotes for a question is a flawed measure of question quality, one particular issue is that the amount of exposure a question gets matters a lot. Questions that were linked in the hot questions list tend to get an enormous amount of votes, much more than any questions gets organica...

 
user55340
9:22 PM
144 vs 180... we might get to #1.
 
I guess I can upvote a couple other answers too!
weee!
 
psr
@gnat Yes, I've read that. There is some Bayesian formula for evaluating things like number of stars in an Amazon review that involves something like calculating the probability it really is 5 stars given both the number of reviews and the values. Giving rep to an answer based on some similar formula involving number of views would help a lot - except the rules for SO are already impossible to explain.
 
@psr take some more meaningless rep
 
user55340
@enderland He's going to need to take a shower now...
 
user55340
(+7 in 17 minutes)
 
psr
9:24 PM
@enderland This is turning into the thing where your dad catches you smoking and makes you smoke the whole pack.
 
@MichaelT sure why not. And notice, with 900 views in 3 hours, the question likely doesn't need steroids in the form of dozens crappy answers to pump it up
 
user55340
@psr Some of just want you to have delete votes so we see some variation in those messages...
 
@psr I didn't know about that, thanks!
 
user55340
(well, not just... but it would be a nice bonus)
 
user55340
> deleted by gnat, MichaelT, GlenH7 7 hours ago
 
psr
9:26 PM
@MichaelT Thanks, was about to ask "huh?"
 
user55340
> deleted by MichaelT, gnat, GlenH7 7 hours ago
 
I wonder how few people it would take to totally "game" the popular question algorithm
 
user55340
(there's a pattern there...)
 
psr
@MichaelT I probably vote to leave open in the review queue a higher percentage than any of you 3. But for delete I'm sure there is enough complete crap to pass even my lenient threshold.
 
@MichaelT you want to make it, like four horsemen? Pale horse is mine, with over 10,000 DVs on deleted posts...
Pale Horse Rider - When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come and see!" I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.gnat Jun 8 '12 at 11:17
 
psr
9:29 PM
@gnat So I would get to be death?
 
@psr do you.... ride... gnat?
 
user55340
@gnat I'm sure the cliff questions have helped that a bit recently.
 
probably only a few thousand of them
 
@psr death is already taken I think
 
psr
@Ampt I'm pretty sure in this metaphor gnat is plague or famine or, um, Ringo.
@gnat Aw man, I figured Death is the last guy to show up, so...
 
9:32 PM
@MichaelT unlikely, mere 200-300 from the cliff (it has been at ~300 posts when we started, now it's like 70 there). Link only answers did a lot of it. And quickly closed questions
 
user55340
@gnat I've poked SO a couple times with it. Does funny things to the rep graphs.
 
user55340
(Ohh! Variation in delete votes - "deleted by Robert Harvey, MichaelT, gnat Sep 1 at 0:23")
 
 
user55340
 
@MichaelT did you try the trick with cliff voting between 0 and 3:00 GMT? Graph could look the same, only with double amplitude
Sep 1 at 10:47, by gnat
@MichaelT did you notice that "cliff" questions allow one double their daily voting limit? I mean, cleanup script runs 3 hours after "server day" starts, and killer votes cast during these happy hours, stop counting towards the limit after the script deletes questions so that one can vote further
7
A: A badge that rewards "prophetic" downvoting

Jon EricsonProphet of Doom 50 downvotes on posts that are later: Deleted Closed (except migrations and duplicate) Many duplicates are good questions, but just use different keywords. Doomsayer 500 downvotes Pale Horse Rider 5000 downvotes

 
user55340
9:38 PM
@gnat Yep - the second and third days show that trend.
 
@MichaelT oh so that's it, double swing
 
user55340
September 2nd I had 110 entries of rep changes.... with a net +8.
 
Profit of Doom badge. That would almost tempt me to look at the reviews...
 
We should just sort everything by number of Facebook "Like"s and be done with it.
 
user55340
@Ampt You don't need reviews to do this... I've only got ~500 rep on SO and, well, you see what I do.
 
9:49 PM
@Ampt this badge is already taken by John Carmack and John Romero
above is an image of gnat using his CVs
now, gnat notices a question at the top of collider...
speaking of berserk mode, yesterday conversation got me thinking
yesterday, by Thomas Owens
Also, keeping people who are experts in their field is critical to the success of any SE site. I haven't seen anyone leave because a few questions became problematic. But people do leave if they are constantly harassed.
deleting my MSO account might be an option to consider to push through that hotness correction request. Indeed, it's the only thing I really need from MSO, the only thing that permanently, as they say, "harasses" me both at Programmers and Workplace
 
10:15 PM
Can anybody name a javascript offline storage library they've heard anything decent about?
 
Does window.localStorage count?
 
@Brant nah, but I'll probably just use that
I recall using it ages ago and finding it easy enough not to really need an abstraction
but now that it's been years I figured maybe it had gotten fancified (which some reading on google suggested to be true)
at which point I would rather an abstraction make it simple
 
There's also Web SQL Database, but I can't imagine you'd actually want to use it.
Or that anyone else would.
Or is it IndexedDB now?
 
@Brant No you're thinking of Caché
 
Heh.
I guess it depends what you're storing. localStorage limits you to 5MB per domain and you're dealing with strings. It probably wouldn't be hard to wrap JSON serialization/deserialization around that.
I'm not aware of any libraries that bother with any higher levels of abstraction, because blah blah offline webapp oxymoron just restore state from the server etc
 
user20683
10:38 PM
It is under my protection...again!
 
user20683
MwAHAHAHAHAHAH
 
user20683
cough...weeze
 
Oh hey, it's at the top of the collider now.
In your face, Super User!
There's an interesting difference of opinion between the answers on the question and the comments on reddit.
 
psr
My polling question of the day: I've got a couple of classes with a many-to-many relationship. I was about to give one a collection of the other, but decided that it's too common for someone to later invent an attribute on the link itself, which would then be an API breaking change, so I changed to a collection of link objects. Anybody have any thoughts?
@WorldEngineer That would have come across so much more diabolically if I had noticed it had left protected status.
@Brant Awesome! What have we just proved again?
 
Elaborate... many-to-many so..

class Foo { List<Bar> knownBars }
class Bar { List<Foo> knownFoos }
that's how you were going to do it and then decided your codey sense was tingling?
 
user55340
10:49 PM
179 vs 175 - we're #1
 
@MichaelT WE'RE NUMBER ONE! WE'RE NUMBER ONE! LONG LIVE NUMBER ONE!
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa Well, I'm not sure if Bar would have a list of known Foos. And it was going to save properly to the database.
@JimmyHoffa Are you implying this is obviously stupid?
 
Oh so it was more like...

foo1.knownBars.Add(bar1)
foo1.knownBars.Add(bar2)
foo2.knownBars.Add(bar1)
foo2.knownBars.Add(bar2)
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa Pretty much.
 
@psr what I just defined above probably would set off alarm bells to everyone here (which I'm sure it did for you as well), but the other many-to-many I just suggested is far more common, and...fairly harmless...depending on the scenario
 
user55340
10:55 PM
Part of the fun with many to many is the dependency cycle.
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa As far as harmless, what about the issue of when we decide that we need the FooToBarConnectionStrength attribute?
 
@psr Do foo2 and foo1 have references to the same bars or are they values?
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa References.
 
@psr I'm not sure I understand what you mean there, are you referring to an attribute of the connection between foo1 and bar1 that would be different from the connection between foo2 and bar1?
 
user20683
FooBar Connection...sounds like my internet lately
 
11:00 PM
@psr This is the scarier part about these types of relationships. At this point I like to look at putting some kind of events on bar so that when foo1 changes something, foo2 can adjust if need be
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa Yes, instead of saying my foo1 merely knows about bar1 and bar2, we've decided it can know about bar1 with a 50% connection strength. (In short, yes). I've had people throw attributes on the connection pretty often over the life of a code-base.
 
user55340
The connection itself should be an object then.
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa Don't need that yet in my case.
 
That's...strange... I would put that in the foo as a Dictionary<barId, strength> if not creating the link abstraction objects you referred to
Though the concept of it seems very strange to me, I'm not used to having properties of the relationships between objects
 
psr
@MichaelT Right. In my case, the attribute hasn't actually been added to the link - yet. My point is, if it ever gets added it will break my API later if I don't make it an object now.
 
11:02 PM
It feels a little brittle to place attributes on that...
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa I've put additional columns on the relationship tables...
 
user55340
A graph database is a database that uses graph structures with nodes, edges, and properties to represent and store data. By definition, a graph database is any storage system that provides index-free adjacency. This means that every element contains a direct pointer to its adjacent element and no index lookups are necessary. General graph databases that can store any graph are distinct from specialized graph databases such as triplestores and network databases. Structure Graph databases are based on graph theory. Graph databases employ nodes, properties, and edges. Nodes are very simila...
 
@MichaelT Sure in the database
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa Where would it go, then?
 
user55340
So why not in an object then too?
 
user55340
11:03 PM
Bigger version of that image...
 
user55340
 
@psr class Foo { List<Bar> knownBars; Dictionary<barId, relationshipDescriptor> relationshipInfo; }
but I'm not sure that's the right way
I'm just throwing out an alternative
having a class probably makes more sense
or just List<Tuple<Descriptor, Bar>> knownBars
but in any case I'm referring to the semantics of it that feel strange and brittle to me
@MichaelT relationship attributes in a database should be modeled like you refer to if their is variance and possibility of 0 relationships then you add columns to your bridge table to identify the relationship info
but object modeling, I would rather know information about the objects than their references because the references shift often, and indirection class does give you this but I'm wondering if it might be better for your foos to hold the information, the link objects you reference there are only pertinent to that given foo, so perhaps that info should be on that foo
 
user55340
Just think of modeling a family as a graph. The link holds the type of relationship "sister, brother, father, mother, son, daughter"
 
if you had for instance
class Foo { List<BarRelationship> knownBarRelationships } you've effectively got a list of objects that have information specific and only relevant to this *instance* of Foo, so why doesn't this instance of Foo hold the information perhaps? Iduno. Perhaps it does make the most sense just both ways seem strange
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa Not sure what you mean with rather know about objects than references.
 
11:12 PM
I get that, how about this:

class Person { List<Person> Family; Dictionary<Person, PersonType> RelationshipsToMe }
@psr I mean in that image above, I don't like having properties on the lines between the nodes; I would rather have the information living on the nodes than the lines
It seems strange to me to attribute facts to the lines rather than the nodes
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa Any reason?
 
the lines shift and change
you reference these things, then those things, then some other things, having facts about those references feels like you could have more information churning
but iduno
Like I said, just throwing out some thoughts here. The link object route is probably what I would do
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa Even if the nodes are more stable than the lines, when you merge the lines into the nodes they will acquire the instability.
@JimmyHoffa Though in my case I don't have attributes on the relationship - yet. I just fear I will later and I think refactoring to add them will be easier with the link objects. But someone here may have gone down that road and have some insight.
 
Aye, I would probably go the route you're mentioning. I just like to play devils advocate whenever I analyze an approach, looking for other options. Like I said before, you could always have the information added to the Foo later as a dictionary, or is that the "breaking your interface" you were talking about?
 
psr
I'm also not clear in my head on whether having a link object helps at all with the Foo having a collection of Bar and Bar having a collection of Foo.
 
11:18 PM
that's a completely different problem
and that is helped by an abstraction, except it's more like a bridge table: It knows foos, it knows bars, but foos and bars don't know eachother.
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa It is what I'm talking about, but I haven't thought at all about whether that is an issue with your implementation.
 
nah, either route doesn't cause that problem, though if you do need circular dependency like that you want a totally different approach
circular dependency as a problem trumps many-to-many problems in that solving the circular dependency solves many-to-many, but not the other way around\
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa That is what I meant, I just hadn't thought about if I was just kicking the circularity down the road.
@JimmyHoffa Incidentally, what approach do you use for circular dependency. I can't recall trying it.
 
class FooBarRelationship {
    private Dictionary<Foo,List<Bar>> foosBars;
    private Dictionary<Bar,List<Foo>> barsFoos;
    GetBars(Foo); GetFoos(Bar); AddFooToBar(Foo, Bar); AddBarToFoo(Bar, Foo);
}

class Foo { Foo(FooBarRelationship fooBars) { _fooBars = fooBars; } }
class Bar { Bar(FooBarRelationship fooBars) { _fooBars = fooBars; } }
(something like that off the top of my head)
inversion of control it
keeps the two-way relationship reconciliation and safety away from the foos and bars etc, ideally they won't get the FooBarRelationship object and shouldn't need it; those who consume Foo will consume the FooBarRelationship and ask it/maintain within it the info it needs about the relationships
That leaves foo and bar down to just managing themselves and their relationship management to their consumer; inverting the control of the relationship management
Also helps keep your stacks shorter
No foo calling to bar calling to foo calling to bar
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa I hadn't considered that at all, but had considered Foo and Bar delegating to FooBarRelationship, mostly so that the code throughout the system dealing with the Foo Bar family mostly didn't have to look at weird FooBarRelationship objects.
If FooBarRelationship develops exciting attributes later in its life people would be dealing with it directly anyway, though.
 
11:42 PM
Ideally the relationship is a simple to use object, and foo and bar may know how to take each other but only by being passed to them as method parameters by their consumers. This still isolates foo and bar from relationships which keeps them from referencing a foo that references a bar that references a foo to a bar
 
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